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Proto swarms Vs 3 rep maddy (video)

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3746	Posted - 2014.04.30 08:43:00 - [1] - Quote BIind Shot wrote: Alex-P-Keaton Kramer wrote: BIind Shot wrote: 3 complex damage mods, 3 proficiency proto swarms vs 2 complex 1 enhanced heavy repair with level 3 in repair proficiency. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v7AwrgVwNA&feature=youtu.be ok so? He's just sitting there taking no evasive action what so ever.. you don't think that's a little op? I don't think it's OP at all. A tank should not be easily solo'd by anyone, and swarms are the least player-skill intensive form of AV. If there were two proto swarms he would've been toast.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3748	Posted - 2014.04.30 08:50:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Not a dev, just a player. Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time. In a pub, that's never going to happen. Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire. This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally 1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker 2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player 3a) proto AV vs proto tanker 3b) proto AV vs standard tanker 3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1) 4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well 5) efficiency against infantry 6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players. Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this? Well first, recognize the doctrine that Outside is ruled by vehicles, Inside is ruled by infantry. If you take a tank Inside, he is incredibly vulnerable from all angles and can't usually accomplish very much. If you take infantry outside, then they are incredibly vulnerable to tanks. They are different kinds of battlefields that have to be respected in different ways. The problem right now is pub mentality does not recognize this simple truth and instead goes for the lazy "infantry vs everything" approach. I don't personally think it's a good idea to reward lazy player behavior with an easy cop out like buffing AV when people are clearly playing incorrectly. What I DO think you should do is make it so that lopsided matches end faster. The only real depressing part of being roflstomped by a tank horde at the redline is the fact you are at the redline at all. If every objective is capped, why don't the null cannons synchronize and go into sort of a rapid-fire mode to end the match quicker? They do this in battlefield, they do this in WoW... it's pretty common practice to avoid player misery.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3754	Posted - 2014.04.30 20:50:00 - [3] - Quote I'll say it again, the balance is fine. The outside is SUPPOSED to be dominated by vehicles. The only problem is player stupidity and a refusal to put up with their own vehicles. You can't fix stupid, you can only treat the symptoms. End matches faster, don't wreck the game's balance because of stupid entitled assault players who want to be able to do everything with equal efficiency.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3754	Posted - 2014.04.30 22:05:00 - [4] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: So Takihiro, I'm calling you out, give me an answer. Why should it take multiple AV units to destroy a single player in a tank? What reason do you have that permits a single person to surpass more than multiplemof hos designated counter? Because its a lazy counter that requires no foresight, planning, ISK investment, SP sink or geographical advantage. You're also on the wrong part of the map for killing things. Stick to the city. Basically, you dont deserve to kill a tank.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3754	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:19:00 - [5] - Quote Mojo XXXIII wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: So Takihiro, I'm calling you out, give me an answer. Why should it take multiple AV units to destroy a single player in a tank? What reason do you have that permits a single person to surpass more than multiplemof hos designated counter? Because its a lazy counter that requires no foresight, planning, ISK investment, SP sink or geographical advantage. You're also on the wrong part of the map for killing things. Stick to the city. Basically, you dont deserve to kill a tank. Dude, seriously, go eat your paste and let the grown-ups talk. I made a number of valid, intellectual points about why infantry are not in a deserved position to do anything about tanks on the outside portions of maps. You have no such points, and instead acted angrily when they were brought up and you had no valid response. Out of that anger produced the quote you see above, which ironically is childish in and of itself. I suppose now that I've turned your own insult against you, it's a good time to point out that your corporation has never accomplished anything as a whole and you as an individual have basically zero experience on the competitive side of this game from which you can claim your own opinion holds any validity. I agree, let's let the grown ups talk. Failing that, let's let the people who know what they are actually speaking of. This, last I checked, did not include you.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3754	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:22:00 - [6] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: So Takihiro, I'm calling you out, give me an answer. Why should it take multiple AV units to destroy a single player in a tank? What reason do you have that permits a single person to surpass more than multiplemof hos designated counter? Because its a lazy counter that requires no foresight, planning, ISK investment, SP sink or geographical advantage. You're also on the wrong part of the map for killing things. Stick to the city. Basically, you dont deserve to kill a tank. Interesting, That guy usually plays in a tank I should probably start with my AV fit isn't foresight? The other team has a tank, I will need to deploy nearby, preferably behind said tank, with my AV fit probably find some cover in case the engagment goes pear shaped for one of numerous reasons. Isn't planning? 40,000 ISK per suit isn't an ISK investment? 25,000,000 SP just for a decked out AV isn't an SP Sink? Above the turrets angle of attack (high ground) or behind a tank (flanking) isn't a geographical advantage? So umm what was that? No, 40k is not an investment. I switch to 78k suits when im ready to STOP losing money. Tanks cost half a million isk each if they are worth a damn, and there isn't a single form of AV out there that requires 25 million SP by itself.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3754	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:30:00 - [7] - Quote Also let me add something else Monkey, AV can be produced anytime anywhere with no foresight. You get raped by a tank, you switch to AV instantly upon death or if you're at a supply depot. The same convenience is not true for tanks. If your team is redlined by an opposing group of tanks it is incredibly difficult to call new tanks in without them being shot down. If they ARE called in, they will be so far into the back of the redline they are are completely barricaded into a losing fight. Saying "oh herp derp there's a tank ima switch to forge" is not foresight. It's not planning. And even if you did plan for it in advance that isn't going to be any less than just changing to it after you recognize the threat.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3754	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:32:00 - [8] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: So Takihiro, I'm calling you out, give me an answer. Why should it take multiple AV units to destroy a single player in a tank? What reason do you have that permits a single person to surpass more than multiplemof hos designated counter? Because its a lazy counter that requires no foresight, planning, ISK investment, SP sink or geographical advantage. You're also on the wrong part of the map for killing things. Stick to the city. Basically, you dont deserve to kill a tank. Interesting, That guy usually plays in a tank I should probably start with my AV fit isn't foresight? The other team has a tank, I will need to deploy nearby, preferably behind said tank, with my AV fit probably find some cover in case the engagment goes pear shaped for one of numerous reasons. Isn't planning? 40,000 ISK per suit isn't an ISK investment? 25,000,000 SP just for a decked out AV isn't an SP Sink? Above the turrets angle of attack (high ground) or behind a tank (flanking) isn't a geographical advantage? So umm what was that? No, 40k is not an investment. I switch to 78k suits when im ready to STOP losing money. Tanks cost half a million isk each if they are worth a damn, and there isn't a single form of AV out there that requires 25 million SP by itself. 40k suits will NEVER destroy a Tank alon, it needs at least a full proto squad and some OB or an another Tank. A tank will ALWAYS kill at least 20 ennemy before dying, making it destroy way more iSK than it cost. And a tank is CHEAP. Under Proto level AV can't do anything, so it cost the hell to buy some AV. AV is priced and balanced at the luxury cost of being involved in a fight you have no business being a part of. You want to kill tanks, get a ******* tank or stop whining.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3754	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:17:00 - [9] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Aah and so the truth comes out, it should require a tank to kill a tank? Where is the balance in that, please explain it to me After all if you are being redlined by a squad of tanks its game over right, you should just leave the match! Yes, it should NORMALLY require a tank to kill a tank because they are of equal power and brought into the game under equal restrictions. Deployment time, cost, danger of popping due to enemy rails, etc. It is for this very reason that tanks ruling the outside makes sense. They impose a greater threat than infantry and live in the open plains and mountains of Dust 514. Infantry dwell in the urban areas where vehicle movement is restricted. Dropships that dwell in such an area are also prone to an easy death from AV. When you leave the city they become the far greater threat you know currently because that is their domain. If we had it your way, they would be weak on the outside and worthless on the inside. There would be no need to ever field a tank and you would have one game mode -- Infantry 514. Tanks were not meant to be be the equal of infantry, they were meant to be greater than infantry. What equalizes them is where they are allowed to operate, and if you wish to dispatch a tank as an infantry on the tank's turf you should very well need to do so with another tank or with greater effort than the tank has to put out to kill you. You would not go swimming in the ocean and expect to slay a great white shark without putting out more effort than the shark does. What we have here is a problem of infantry entitlement. If you've been redlined, the match should take no longer than a minute to end. It is bad game design that it does not.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3754	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:16:00 - [10] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Aah and so the truth comes out, it should require a tank to kill a tank? Where is the balance in that, please explain it to me After all if you are being redlined by a squad of tanks its game over right, you should just leave the match! Yes, it should NORMALLY require a tank to kill a tank because they are of equal power and brought into the game under equal restrictions. Deployment time, cost, danger of popping due to enemy rails, etc. It is for this very reason that tanks ruling the outside makes sense. They impose a greater threat than infantry and live in the open plains and mountains of Dust 514. Infantry dwell in the urban areas where vehicle movement is restricted. Dropships that dwell in such an area are also prone to an easy death from AV. When you leave the city they become the far greater threat you know currently because that is their domain. If we had it your way, they would be weak on the outside and worthless on the inside. There would be no need to ever field a tank and you would have one game mode -- Infantry 514. Tanks were not meant to be the equal of infantry, they were meant to be greater than infantry. What equalizes them is where they are allowed to operate, and if you wish to dispatch a tank as an infantry on the tank's turf you should very well need to do so with another tank or with greater effort than the tank has to put out to kill you. You would not go swimming in the ocean and expect to slay a great white shark without putting out more effort than the shark does. What we have here is a problem of infantry entitlement. If you've been redlined, the match should take no longer than a minute to end. It is bad game design that it does not. On the outside, we have Tanks 514 and on the inside we have Infantry 514. They are very distinguished and fun games. Your solution would effectively make tanks the equals of infantry, and kill Tanks 514. The tank game does not work if infantry are as great a threat as tanks are. The entire dynamic breaks. Unfortunately "outside " equals 90% of the playable game space and similar spaces between null cannon capture points. There are 3 large sockets which approximate little islands of "city", which incidentally all have large roads right through the middle through which tanks can joyride. Your inside/outside world only exists in a very tenuous state. It exists on an even distribution as far as capturable points are concerned. The exceptions being 5 point maps where one map is clearly themed for outside or inside engagements, and more attention has to be focused on that kind of fight. Simply stating there is more landmass on the outside is a poor argument, because there is no reason to be out there.

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3755	Posted - 2014.05.01 03:52:00 - [11] - Quote The Tunski wrote: I'm at work and on my phone so I'll make this quick. Also have not read every response so I may repeat someone. I don't believe that a single player should be able to kill a tank in the heat of a battle to the point where the tank will take damage and move along, rep, and reengage. That's the intent to my understanding how they are intended to be. It is laughable that a tank can sit there and just eat swarms like that. How you fix that?...well I don't have time for that ATM. I had proto swarms very early on, once I went forge, I've never gone back. Space ships do it all the time in EVE. Vehicles in New Eden are good like that. I happen to enjoy that aspect of them. Why does this need to be a battlefield clone where vehicles are nothing more than steel coffins?
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3756	Posted - 2014.05.01 04:46:00 - [12] - Quote The Tunski wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: The Tunski wrote: I'm at work and on my phone so I'll make this quick. Also have not read every response so I may repeat someone. I don't believe that a single player should be able to kill a tank in the heat of a battle to the point where the tank will take damage and move along, rep, and reengage. That's the intent to my understanding how they are intended to be. It is laughable that a tank can sit there and just eat swarms like that. How you fix that?...well I don't have time for that ATM. I had proto swarms very early on, once I went forge, I've never gone back. Space ships do it all the time in EVE. Vehicles in New Eden are good like that. I happen to enjoy that aspect of them. Why does this need to be a battlefield clone where vehicles are nothing more than steel coffins? I don't want vehicles to be steel coffins, I just don't feel that a tank can just sit there and just laugh at those swarms like in that video. That video isn't news for me, I fully understand that this happens. I've AVed maddy's that had three complex reppers and it was a challenge. Not asking for easy mode just a way that we can close the SMALL gap that's there.... They dont laugh at swarms though. They just can't be killed by a single swarmer to any incredible efficiency with that one very specific fit. The triple rep madrugar fit can counter a single swarmer very well, but what does he sacrifice to do this? If two AV get on him he dies instantly because no resists. In a rail vs rail engagement, the triple rep madrugar will always lose. He sacrifices his ability to stand toe-to-toe with other tanks in order to shrug off a single swarmer. Tanks are the bigger threat out there. That's a pretty bad tradeoff normally.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3756	Posted - 2014.05.01 04:55:00 - [13] - Quote Swarms are the lazy mans AV anyway. Low risk garbage you don't even have to aim and can fire from cover. Basically, the absolute worst players use swarms and they should be rewarded with bad damage accordingly. If someone is going to make a legit complaint it should be for the forge gun. That weapon leaves you vulnerable as hell, moving slow, as an incredibly easy to hit target. At least in the heavy suits description it is said to be the only suit class capable of standing toe-to-toe with vehicles and surviving. I never heard any of the same said about crappy medium frame suits and their assortment of newb friendly ghetto weapons.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3775	Posted - 2014.05.02 07:34:00 - [14] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: Marcus Stormfire wrote: The triple rep Maddy is fun to run around with but it is a bit of a beast. I agree it can annoy the heck out of a lot of players and be near invulnerable to those on the receiving end who don't know how to deal with them. Perhaps lower the Rep amount if anything. However before we all jump on the triple rep Maddy nerf bandwagon you guys should think of more interesting and unorthodox tactics to remove them from the battlefield. I just had loads of fun running solo and removing Madrugars including a few triple rep beasts (amongst many other tanks). Just think outside the box and do some theory crafting. Thinking of clever ways to turn the tide of battle is part of the fun of the game. -Marcus How about you provide some of said tactics so that the rest of us may test them ourselves? 1.REs. Three total will kill it, or two if they are next to/on the weak point. 2. A maxed out assault forge gun can dps it down in 4 shots. Less if one can hit the weakspot. 3. Large railgun. Particle Cannon takes 4 shots, damage mod reduces that to 3, and hitting the weakpoint with a damage mod reduces that to 2. 4. PEs. Lay an RE, switch to your PE, and lay the PE on top of the RE. The double combo does about 2700 damage. Two of these close together pops a repper tank easy. 5. Maxed out breach forge gun can two shot a repper tank, and maybe even one shot if you hit the weakspot. 6. Maxed out swarms, if you begin your attack from behind so the missiles hit the weakspot. There you go. Begin testing. All of these tactics involve the use of human intelligence. You are asking these peasants for too much.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3781	Posted - 2014.05.02 08:11:00 - [15] - Quote Nah.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3792	Posted - 2014.05.02 12:18:00 - [16] - Quote Atiim wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: All of these tactics involve the use of human intelligence. You are asking these peasants for too much. Then I challenge you to try all of them against me, and I'm willing to bet the entire contents of your wallet that only #3 would have even the slightest possibility of succeeding. Not that #3 is relevant. This is a discussion of Infantry AV. Son, I could punch your tank to death. Left handed.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3792	Posted - 2014.05.02 12:23:00 - [17] - Quote It's a bad business venture. You don't know how much I have, and you never offered anything. What's in it for me?
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3792	Posted - 2014.05.02 12:27:00 - [18] - Quote Yeaaaaaa... if all you have is 60 mil I'm not going to wager my own stash which is noticeably bigger. Good hustle on trying to become not broke though. But I'll keep on a lookout for you so I can give your tin can a kinetic beatdown.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3792	Posted - 2014.05.02 12:31:00 - [19] - Quote No, your tank is still going to explode. You just aren't going to have any hope of receiving a payday.