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Amarr scout racial bonus parity problem

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Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5241	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:07:00 - [1] - Quote The Caldari Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% scan precision per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex precision enhancer (actually a little more since complex precision enhancers are 20%) The Gallente Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% profile signature reduction per level At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex profile dampener. The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers And now for the fun part, The Amarr Scout racial bonus is 5% stamina recovery and max stamina per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of less than one basic cardiac regulator, and that's it. A basic cardiac regulator does 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina recovery. So all other races get a free complex module and then some, but Amarr scout gets the short end of the stick here. I think it would be more than fair to bump this bonus to 20% stamina recovery and max stamina per level, which at level 5 would be 100% bonus to each which is the equivalent of one complex cardiac regulator. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 1824	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:08:00 - [2] - Quote Sounds good to me Minmatar Assault. Hopeful Caldari Scout soon. praying for that respec.
Rogue Saint Science For Death 679	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:10:00 - [3] - Quote I hate agreeing with an Amarr scum, but you're right, "bro". GôêGÆ+GÆ+GÆ¦ - Causes headaches, it's official
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 1645	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:12:00 - [4] - Quote I approve, even With a total + 100% its still a fairly weak bonus compared to the others, though it can be great for the start of matches sending a fast runner With an uplink, so its not useless either. http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/KingBabar/media/BannerKingbabarcopy.png.html
VikingKong iBUN Third Rock From The Sun INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 16	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:12:00 - [5] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: Sounds good to me this
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5248	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:14:00 - [6] - Quote KingBabar wrote: I approve, even With a total + 100% its still a fairly weak bonus compared to the others, though it can be great for the start of matches sending a fast runner With an uplink, so its not useless either. Yup. I know 100% bonus may sound ridiculous, but you have to keep in mind it is for stamina. There is a reason why complex cardiac regulators also have a 100% bonus to stamina. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
OZAROW Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 1258	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:17:00 - [7] - Quote Totally fair, I dunno what the low slot layout is but it would be nice to not need that modual an stack speed since you ll probably be slow SUPER NOVA KNIFE SAIYAN 4
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5248	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:19:00 - [8] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: Sounds good to me When you say sounds good, do you mean the current Amarr racial bonus sounds good? Or my proposed revision sounds good? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2602	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:22:00 - [9] - Quote OZAROW wrote: Totally fair, I dunno what the low slot layout is but it would be nice to not need that modual an stack speed since you ll probably be slow 2 high and 3 lows. 4 lows at prototype. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2848	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:23:00 - [10] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: The Caldari Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% scan precision per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex precision enhancer (actually a little more since complex precision enhancers are 20%) The Gallente Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% profile signature reduction per level At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex profile dampener. The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers And now for the fun part, The Amarr Scout racial bonus is 5% stamina recovery and max stamina per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of less than one basic cardiac regulator, and that's it. A basic cardiac regulator does 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina recovery. So all other races get a free complex module and then some, but Amarr scout gets the short end of the stick here. I think it would be more than fair to bump this bonus to 20% stamina recovery and max stamina per level, which at level 5 would be 100% bonus to each which is the equivalent of one complex cardiac regulator. Well spotted. I also have a problem with giving them stamina in the first place. There's a cut off point where any greater distance is better covered by LAV. The only exception I can think of is those times on open maps when I've laid a trail of uplinks towards an objective. And since the Amarr Scout isn't getting the Uplink bonus it should be, that point seems moot now anyway. No.

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5249	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:31:00 - [11] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Well spotted. I also have a problem with giving them stamina in the first place. There's a cut off point where any greater distance is better covered by LAV. The only exception I can think of is those times on open maps when I've laid a trail of uplinks towards an objective. And since the Amarr Scout isn't getting the Uplink bonus it should be, that point seems moot now anyway. Well since all the other scouts are getting a racial bonus equivalent of a complex module and then some, I don't see what would be wrong with giving the Amarr scout a racial bonus of 20% stamina recovery and max stamina per level (complex cardiac regulator equivalent) plus a bonus to uplinks. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 148	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:32:00 - [12] - Quote Slight problem...the 4 low slots. I'm picturing a scout with 2 complex cardiac regulators,2 complex armor plates/repair, Cloak Mmm no. +300% bonuses would be insane. Increase the bonus to a basic cardiac regulator,fine but no higher. Op is Op even in light form. Why? Beads.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2850	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:35:00 - [13] - Quote Meee One wrote: Slight problem...the 4 low slots. I'm picturing a scout with 2 complex cardiac regulators,2 complex armor plates/repair, Cloak Mmm no. +300% bonuses would be insane. Increase the bonus to a basic cardiac regulator,fine but no higher. Op is Op even in light form. In what situation is an abundance of stamina OP?????? No.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5249	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:35:00 - [14] - Quote Meee One wrote: Slight problem...the 4 low slots. I'm picturing a scout with 2 complex cardiac regulators,2 complex armor plates/repair, Cloak Mmm no. +300% bonuses would be insane. Increase the bonus to a basic cardiac regulator,fine but no higher. Op is Op even in light form. You really think that would be OP? Because honestly as Chunky Munkey said there is a point where more stamina just doesn't mean anything. Also Gallente scouts also have 4 low slots, yet still get a racial bonus for a complex profile dampener (a low slot). Why is this not OP then, by your logic? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5249	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:37:00 - [15] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Meee One wrote: Slight problem...the 4 low slots. I'm picturing a scout with 2 complex cardiac regulators,2 complex armor plates/repair, Cloak Mmm no. +300% bonuses would be insane. Increase the bonus to a basic cardiac regulator,fine but no higher. Op is Op even in light form. In what situation is an abundance of stamina OP?????? When the map looks like this and the team vehicle quota has been reached, duh ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Haerr Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 144	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:41:00 - [16] - Quote Since on the other suits (Assault, Logi) Amarr has one less High/Low (In exchange for more base HP and more base Stamina) than the other factions we could say that since the Amarr scouts gets the extra base HP and extra base Stamina without losing a High/Low slot that the Amarr Scout has +1 High/Low slot.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5253	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:43:00 - [17] - Quote Haerr wrote: Since on the other suits (Assault, Logi) Amarr has one less High/Low (In exchange for more base HP and more base Stamina) than the other factions we could say that since the Amarr scouts gets the extra base HP and extra base Stamina without losing a High/Low slot that the Amarr Scout has +1 High/Low slot. Check out the Amarr Commando and the Amarr Sentinel, both have the same number of slots as the other races. Previous racial themes in Dust can be discarded, they are taking a new approach to this. And actually, the Sentinel and Commando suits are even a little bit slower now than they used to be, which could of been done to compensate the extra module. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 278	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:44:00 - [18] - Quote Agreed. The stamina bonus is weak tea compared to the other Scouts. Perhaps they could get: +20% bonus to stamina regen rate, max stamina and -5% (or +, I'm not sure which way it would work) to Uplink Spawn Times per level. I definitely agree that the stamina bonus as is is not up to par.
Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 148	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:48:00 - [19] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: You really think that would be OP? Because honestly as Chunky Munkey said there is a point where more stamina just doesn't mean anything. Also Gallente scouts also have 4 low slots, yet still get a racial bonus for a complex profile dampener (a low slot). Why is this not OP then, by your logic? I never said it wasn't. I was responding to the topic. Instead of saying ' it's OP'. Suggest reductions to them(instead of 5% how about 2 or 3?),and an additional bonus effect for amarr scouts.(passive armor plates bonus) I'm not a scout but i know a bad idea when i read it. Also these stats aren't finalized,so calm down. Why? Beads.
Haerr Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 144	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:51:00 - [20] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Haerr wrote: Since on the other suits (Assault, Logi) Amarr has one less High/Low (In exchange for more base HP and more base Stamina) than the other factions we could say that since the Amarr scouts gets the extra base HP and extra base Stamina without losing a High/Low slot that the Amarr Scout has +1 High/Low slot. Check out the Amarr Commando and the Amarr Sentinel, both have the same number of slots as the other races. Previous racial themes in Dust can be discarded, they are taking a new approach to this. And actually, the Sentinel and Commando suits are even a little bit slower now than they used to be, which could of been done to compensate the extra module. Right you are! Yeah that Amarr bonus is looking pretty damn weak now... Perhaps add stamina damage when a Amarr scout hits with it's weapon? That would be fun, like a sort of web / point bonus in dust. Edit: Or neut if we think that stamina is cap.

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5256	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:55:00 - [21] - Quote Meee One wrote: I never said it wasn't. I was responding to the topic. Instead of saying ' it's OP'. Suggest reductions to them(instead of 5% how about 2 or 3?),and an additional bonus effect for amarr scouts.(passive armor plates bonus) I'm not a scout but i know a bad idea when i read it. Also these stats aren't finalized,so calm down. I love when people say this. What makes you think I am not calm? I am the most calm person around,bro But if I'm not allowed to give feedback because it makes me sound uncalm, then what is the point of even releasing this info before it's finalized? Just let us peacefully give our feedback And why is it a bad idea, can you explain that one too me? Because to me all it sounds like is you are freeing up one of the low slots for another module of choice. Adding a second complex cardiac regulator on top of my proposed change wouldn't make you OP, because in fact you'd hardly notice a difference, most people don't over 2 minutes straight sprinting in an FPS. Likewise with the Gallente bonus, all it means is they do not need to fit complex profile dampener because they are already below proto scans. Adding another wouldn't provide any additional benefit. So please, tell me how this is such a bad idea. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 82	Posted - 2014.01.17 12:03:00 - [22] - Quote Give them +5% to jump height :P So that they can be all halo style then, run and jump 20m into the air and shotgun you in the face. Unofficial D.A.R.K.L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Haerr Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 144	Posted - 2014.01.17 12:03:00 - [23] - Quote There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode
Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 150	Posted - 2014.01.17 12:28:00 - [24] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: So please, tell me how this is such a bad idea. Its nice how you pick out one sentence and then make a whole paragraph about it whilst simultaneously insulting meee and ignoring the rest of my post. Scouts aren't vehicles and shouldn't be comperable to such. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." I'm trying to prevent a pandemic you are trying to start. Hyper run stats wouldn't allow for any retreat.It would ve impossible to escape. Think about the players who wouldn't have this dash ability.Typical response:"well hurr jez becum a skout urself" Aka fight tank spam with tank spam,and we all know how well that worked (it didn't) I'm not going to feed you anymore. All you're going to do is pick 1 word/sentence of all my post and ignore the rest. tl;dr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UDnTJcjPhY Why? Beads.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5265	Posted - 2014.01.17 12:45:00 - [25] - Quote Meee One wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: So please, tell me how this is such a bad idea. Its nice how you pick out one sentence and then make a whole paragraph about it whilst simultaneously insulting meee and ignoring the rest of my post. Scouts aren't vehicles and shouldn't be comperable to such. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." I'm trying to prevent a pandemic you are trying to start. Hyper run stats wouldn't allow for any retreat.It would ve impossible to escape. Think about the players who wouldn't have this dash ability.Typical response:"well hurr jez becum a skout urself" Aka fight tank spam with tank spam,and we all know how well that worked (it didn't) I'm not going to feed you anymore. All you're going to do is pick 1 word/sentence of all my post and ignore the rest. tl;dr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UDnTJcjPhY I made a couple remarks about your one sentence and then proceeded to address the rest of your points, what are you talking about? Also the scout with the bonuses I provided would never be able to fill the role of a vehicle because a) they aren't nearly as fast, plus this is the slow Amarr scout we're talking about and b) even if they were, you can't piggy back someone over to an objective. And this dash ability you are describing, I am a little confused. You are aware that we are talking about stamina, correct? And that that is different than speed? And that even with one complex cardiac regulator you already pretty much never have to worry about stamina? And that all I'm suggesting is make that a free bonus to the Amarr scout since other scouts are getting a free complex module and then some? Have you even used a complex cardiac regulator before?] ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Mortedeamor 1233	Posted - 2014.01.17 13:00:00 - [26] - Quote i agree +1 jihhhaders = av lvl 0 swarm master = av lvl 99+
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3167	Posted - 2014.01.17 13:40:00 - [27] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: The Caldari Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% scan precision per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex precision enhancer (actually a little more since complex precision enhancers are 20%) The Gallente Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% profile signature reduction per level At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex profile dampener. The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers And now for the fun part, The Amarr Scout racial bonus is 5% stamina recovery and max stamina per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of less than one basic cardiac regulator, and that's it. A basic cardiac regulator does 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina recovery. So all other races get a free complex module and then some, but Amarr scout gets the short end of the stick here. I think it would be more than fair to bump this bonus to 20% stamina recovery and max stamina per level, which at level 5 would be 100% bonus to each which is the equivalent of one complex cardiac regulator. I agree they're being shorted here (and they're the slowest scout already), but I don't know if that's enough. You point out that every other scout is basically getting multiple modules. The Amarr Scout could possibly use an adjunct to your modified stats. Like, 2% sprint speed per level (would only boost sprint, not move-speed, obviously), a Scram Pistol bonus, link bonus.. something else too. You also need this comment in the feedback thread if it isn't already. Join my cult.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 1249	Posted - 2014.01.17 13:42:00 - [28] - Quote +1 Scout Roles: M-Speedy Anarchist \| C-Chaos Weaver \| G-Stealth Recon \| A-Endurance Hunter
Dirks Macker Enlightened Infantries Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 119	Posted - 2014.01.17 13:54:00 - [29] - Quote The Amarr suit has more survivability when you and the enemy are shooting at one another. You can also stack armor, decloak, and survive much longer than the Minmatar and Caldari scout. You could be close with the Gallente, but why even cloak with the signature damp? That eliminates armor tanking if you go sans cloak. Enlightened Indoctrination Blog
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 1609	Posted - 2014.01.17 14:36:00 - [30] - Quote Dirks Macker wrote: The Amarr suit has more survivability when you and the enemy are shooting at one another. You get either a free basic or enhanced ferroscale plate depending on which suit you are comparing it to. You can also stack armor, decloak, and survive much longer than the Minmatar and Caldari scout. You could be close with the Gallente, but why even cloak with the signature damp? That eliminates armor tanking if you go sans cloak. Hooray! A free basic ferroscale plate. Those are pretty OP. Seriously though, why are you comparing base stats to bonuses? Those are different discussions. The fact that they are slower compensates for the higher eHP. This is true for every Amarr suit of every class. Putting in my vote for a bonus to uplinks, like the minmatar get a bonus to hacking. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor! Forum Warrior lv.1

Ruthless Lee The Eliminators 300	Posted - 2014.01.17 15:35:00 - [31] - Quote +1 I'm with ya, Aero...
MrShooter01 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 443	Posted - 2014.01.17 17:36:00 - [32] - Quote Crazy idea for amarr scout bonus: reduction to deployed drop uplink scan profile? At level 5, your drop uplinks would be all but invisible to any type of scan and must be hunted down visually
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6478	Posted - 2014.01.17 17:38:00 - [33] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I noticed the following stats. Source: http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65556/1/dropsuitsuprising18.jpg https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=136370&find=unread/ [Race] [Max Stamina] [Stamina Rech. Rate] Caldari, 200/30 Gallente, 200/30 Minmatar, 210/35 Amarr, 225/40 Now lets compare this to the other classes. The best Commando suit (listed in the spreadsheet linked above) with the highest stamina and recharge rate is the Amarr Commando at 180/25. The Assault suit (currently) with the best stamina and recharge is the Minmatar Mk.0 with 175/15. The Logistics suit (currently) with the best stamina and recharge is the Logistics Ak.0 with 140/15. The Amarr scout, without fittings, is technically the best scout suit with the most maximum stamina and recover of any suit in any class. It also has 2H and 4L. Compared to other suit classes, this makes the Amarr Scout favorable to those who prefer endurance across long distances. Of course, the bonus only means that the effect will equal to one STD stamina mod compared to the bonuses that other suits in the same class get, but when taking into account the stamina amount and recovery of the Amarr Scout, this is not so bad. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Viktor Hadah Jr Critical-Impact 1935	Posted - 2014.01.17 17:39:00 - [34] - Quote Good find, hope CCP sees this thread. Selling Templar BPO 300Mil Earn 50Mil+ ISK in Dust
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1972	Posted - 2014.01.17 17:39:00 - [35] - Quote What if the Amarr bonus is equal to a complex Regulator and a standard kin cat? I think the Empire would have a bunch of expendable soldiers stuffed with biotics. Either way we shouldn't forget that the Gal scout has a free adv repper too. Try to kill it all you want CCP, I still <3 my laser.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2649	Posted - 2014.01.17 18:04:00 - [36] - Quote Good point made by the OP. +1 Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 337	Posted - 2014.01.17 18:05:00 - [37] - Quote Signed: Also, the minmatar scout is downright ridiculous. Minmatar get : 31.5 bonus to hacking speed (suit bonus and higher base suit value) 25% extra damage This is equivalent to more than 3 complex damage mods along with 1 free complex code-breaker and 1 free basic code breaker. Yep, *5 FREE MODULES* While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5327	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:12:00 - [38] - Quote Dirks Macker wrote: The Amarr suit has more survivability when you and the enemy are shooting at one another. You get either a free basic or enhanced ferroscale plate depending on which suit you are comparing it to. You can also stack armor, decloak, and survive much longer than the Minmatar and Caldari scout. You could be close with the Gallente, but why even cloak with the signature damp? That eliminates armor tanking if you go sans cloak. If you want to go the argument that Amarr get a extra armor then I'll counter you with the fact that all the other scouts get extra speed. There is already a balance in place for this, it does not need to transcend further down to the racial bonuses. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Kato Ymmij The Exemplars Top Men. 34	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:35:00 - [39] - Quote Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols?
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5334	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:38:00 - [40] - Quote Kato Ymmij wrote: Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols? per level? That sounds like too much for the scrambler pistol, also I'd rather have a bonus that is less direclty offensive in nature, but that is just my opinion. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Kato Ymmij The Exemplars Top Men. 34	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:44:00 - [41] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols? per level? That sounds like too much for the scrambler pistol, also I'd rather have a bonus that is less direclty offensive in nature, but that is just my opinion. 2-3% per level, to keep the amarr scout bonus in line with the other scout bonuses (1 basic mod/1complex mod). I think it would be awesome to see some dual pistol scouts causing mayhem on the field.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5337	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:48:00 - [42] - Quote Kato Ymmij wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols? per level? That sounds like too much for the scrambler pistol, also I'd rather have a bonus that is less direclty offensive in nature, but that is just my opinion. 2-3% per level, to keep the amarr scout bonus in line with the other scout bonuses (1 basic mod/1complex mod). I think it would be awesome to see some dual pistol scouts causing mayhem on the field. Well if we are actually going to make sense and make the Amarr scout bonuses like every other race with one basic module and one complex, I would agree that the stamina should be the standard module. Also then this would also mirror the Minmatar scout (weapon damage) much like the Gallente and Caldari mirror each other (dampening vs precision). I'll add this to the OP ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 338	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:52:00 - [43] - Quote Kato Ymmij wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols? per level? That sounds like too much for the scrambler pistol, also I'd rather have a bonus that is less direclty offensive in nature, but that is just my opinion. 2-3% per level, to keep the amarr scout bonus in line with the other scout bonuses (1 basic mod/1complex mod). I think it would be awesome to see some dual pistol scouts causing mayhem on the field. Actually the bonuses (module wise) are all over the place: Effectively free modules through bonuses and passive suit bonus stats (like 3 hp/sec armor rep, or +5% hack speed); Minmatar : 5 (4 proto 1 basic) Gallente: 3 (1 proto, 1 adv, 1 basic) Caldari : 3 (1 proto, 2 basic) Amarr:: 1 (1 militia) While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Kato Ymmij The Exemplars Top Men. 34	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:11:00 - [44] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols? per level? That sounds like too much for the scrambler pistol, also I'd rather have a bonus that is less direclty offensive in nature, but that is just my opinion. 2-3% per level, to keep the amarr scout bonus in line with the other scout bonuses (1 basic mod/1complex mod). I think it would be awesome to see some dual pistol scouts causing mayhem on the field. Actually the bonuses (module wise) are all over the place: Effectively free modules through bonuses and passive suit bonus stats (like 3 hp/sec armor rep, or +5% hack speed); Minmatar : 5 (4 proto 1 basic) Gallente: 3 (1 proto, 1 adv, 1 basic) Caldari : 3 (1 proto, 2 basic) Amarr:: 1 (1 militia) I'm still not sure why CCP thought the minmatar scout needed to have a higher base hacking speed than the other scouts. The amarr scout still has more hp, stamina/recovery, and cpu/pg than the other scouts.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 339	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:17:00 - [45] - Quote Kato Ymmij wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols? per level? That sounds like too much for the scrambler pistol, also I'd rather have a bonus that is less direclty offensive in nature, but that is just my opinion. 2-3% per level, to keep the amarr scout bonus in line with the other scout bonuses (1 basic mod/1complex mod). I think it would be awesome to see some dual pistol scouts causing mayhem on the field. Actually the bonuses (module wise) are all over the place: Effectively free modules through bonuses and passive suit bonus stats (like 3 hp/sec armor rep, or +5% hack speed); Minmatar : 5 (4 proto 1 basic) Gallente: 3 (1 proto, 1 adv, 1 basic) Caldari : 3 (1 proto, 2 basic) Amarr:: 1 (1 militia) I'm still not sure why CCP thought the minmatar scout needed to have a higher base hacking speed than the other scouts. The amarr scout still has more hp, stamina/recovery, and cpu/pg than the other scouts. Nope, the amarrian scout will have the second lowest CPU, and the second most PG. ALL amarrian suits get extra hp and stamina for being the slowest suits in-game (in this case the amarrian scout will be SLOWER than the minmatar assault and base suits). While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3692	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:17:00 - [46] - Quote +1 and i'll leave this here since its related: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1732894#post1732894 GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 1612	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:22:00 - [47] - Quote Kato Ymmij wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols? per level? That sounds like too much for the scrambler pistol, also I'd rather have a bonus that is less direclty offensive in nature, but that is just my opinion. 2-3% per level, to keep the amarr scout bonus in line with the other scout bonuses (1 basic mod/1complex mod). I think it would be awesome to see some dual pistol scouts causing mayhem on the field. Actually the bonuses (module wise) are all over the place: Effectively free modules through bonuses and passive suit bonus stats (like 3 hp/sec armor rep, or +5% hack speed); Minmatar : 5 (4 proto 1 basic) Gallente: 3 (1 proto, 1 adv, 1 basic) Caldari : 3 (1 proto, 2 basic) Amarr:: 1 (1 militia) I'm still not sure why CCP thought the minmatar scout needed to have a higher base hacking speed than the other scouts. The amarr scout still has more hp, stamina/recovery, and cpu/pg than the other scouts. The hacking one is easy, that's compensation for the loss of that bonus to the Minnie logi. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor! Forum Warrior lv.1
Kato Ymmij The Exemplars Top Men. 34	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:26:00 - [48] - Quote The hacking one is easy, that's compensation for the loss of that bonus to the Minnie logi. [/quote] Just checked again and you're right about the cpu/pg. I was talking about the base hack speed the min scout has and not the bonus that it is also receiving.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2623	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:28:00 - [49] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Effectively free modules through bonuses and passive suit bonus stats (like 3 hp/sec armor rep, or +5% hack speed); Minmatar : 5 (4 proto 1 basic) Gallente: 3 (1 proto, 1 adv, 1 basic) Caldari : 3 (1 proto, 2 basic) Amarr:: 1 (1 militia) Actually, the damage bonus for the Minmatar is 2 x complex and 1 x enhanced but that's not my point here. The Minmatar Scout has the lowest buffer and will need 1 x enhanced shield extender to compete with the Gallente and Caldari or 1 x complex to compete with the Amarr. The Amarr has the best defensive buffer so I'd suggest adding one innate module for them and subtracting one from the Minmatar. In the end the Amarr suit is still somewhat lacking in capability and the Minmatar has the most capability if it can survive long enough to do its mission. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 341	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:29:00 - [50] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: The hacking one is easy, that's compensation for the loss of that bonus to the Minnie logi. I have read this like 5 times but I can't make any sense of it. Are you claiming that since the hacking speed bonus got moved from the min logi to min scout, that they also deserved an extra 5% hacking speed over the other scouts on top of it? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.

Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 341	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:33:00 - [51] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Effectively free modules through bonuses and passive suit bonus stats (like 3 hp/sec armor rep, or +5% hack speed); Minmatar : 5 (4 proto 1 basic) Gallente: 3 (1 proto, 1 adv, 1 basic) Caldari : 3 (1 proto, 2 basic) Amarr:: 1 (1 militia) Actually, the damage bonus for the Minmatar is 2 x complex and 1 x enhanced but that's not my point here. The Minmatar Scout has the lowest buffer and will need 1 x enhanced shield extender to compete with the Gallente and Caldari or 1 x complex to compete with the Amarr. The Amarr has the best defensive buffer so I'd suggest adding one innate module for them and subtracting one from the Minmatar. In the end the Amarr suit is still somewhat lacking in capability and the Minmatar has the most capability if it can survive long enough to do its mission. dmg mods (with stacking penalties) 1 = 10% 2 = 18.7% 3 = 24.4% Yes, a 25% bonus to damage is equivalent to 3 prototype damge mods. Oh and minmatar trade HP for speed, an amarrian suit would need a complex kin-cat just to match the sprint speed of the minnies(it is impossible for an amarrian suit to strafe as fast as a minmatar suit), so your HP claim is moot. Anyway my assertion stands. Minmatar scouts are pretty OP right now. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12274	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:37:00 - [52] - Quote /This has been tagged by Kane CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2623	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:38:00 - [53] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: dmg mods (with stacking penalties) 1 = 10% 2 = 18.7% 3 = 24.4% Yes, a 25% bonus to damage is equivalent to 3 prototype damge mods. Oh and minmatar trade HP for speed, an amarrian suit would need a complex kin-cat just to match the sprint speed of the minnies(it is impossible for an amarrian suit to strafe as fast as a minmatar suit), so your HP claim is moot. Anyway my assertion stands. Minmatar scouts are pretty OP right now. Right, stacking penalty, but it is only at arm's length but cloaking should make that easier to apply. I wish the speed bonus meant more. Strafing doesn't do much right now. Other than defenses I do agree the Minmatar has the strongest benefits right now and the Amarr has the weakest. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2623	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:39:00 - [54] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: /This has been tagged by Kane Meaning it'll be presented by the CPM to be reviewed for further changes by CCP? // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 341	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:41:00 - [55] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: dmg mods (with stacking penalties) 1 = 10% 2 = 18.7% 3 = 24.4% Yes, a 25% bonus to damage is equivalent to 3 prototype damge mods. Oh and minmatar trade HP for speed, an amarrian suit would need a complex kin-cat just to match the sprint speed of the minnies(it is impossible for an amarrian suit to strafe as fast as a minmatar suit), so your HP claim is moot. Anyway my assertion stands. Minmatar scouts are pretty OP right now. Right, stacking penalty, but it is only at arm's length but cloaking should make that easier to apply. I wish the speed bonus meant more. Strafing doesn't do much right now. Other than defenses I do agree the Minmatar has the strongest benefits right now and the Amarr has the weakest. I wrote a bunch more in an edit above. You should read it, then you can easily see that the amarrian scout is just horribly outmatched by the minmatar suit in every possible way. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 678	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:49:00 - [56] - Quote I'd swap you the stamina and stamina regen for the knife bonus In your blind spot CPM, Remnant, Wolfman - Respect ~
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 678	Posted - 2014.01.17 21:52:00 - [57] - Quote Also please drop this Minmatar complex damage bonus argument - its tied to one weapon. If that was the only sidearm in the game then you might have a point. - For knifers its great for the rest, not so much. In your blind spot CPM, Remnant, Wolfman - Respect ~
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 342	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:00:00 - [58] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Also please drop this Minmatar complex damage bonus argument - its tied to one weapon. If that was the only sidearm in the game then you might have a point. - For knifers its great for the rest, not so much. Thats nonsense. You can't discount a bonus like that. The amarrian assault's old bonus and the future amarrian commando bonus will only apply to two weapons (scrambler/laser rifles), should we discount them as well? It doesn't change the fact that it is a bonus that is equivalent to 3 complex damage mods. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5343	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:05:00 - [59] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Also please drop this Minmatar complex damage bonus argument - its tied to one weapon. If that was the only sidearm in the game then you might have a point. - For knifers its great for the rest, not so much. But nonetheless if you equip the knives than that is exactly what you are getting. I'm not saying it is too much or not though. Would would you say if Amarr scout also got a scrambler pistol bonus? 2-3% damage per level, in addition to it's current bonus? That would make it like the Minmatar bonus with a damage mod to a specific sidearm. I'm still not convinced on this thought, but it is quite interesting and I'd love to hear more opinions. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12276	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:10:00 - [60] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: /This has been tagged by Kane Meaning it'll be presented by the CPM to be reviewed for further changes by CCP? Tagged past tense, its been brought to my attention as well so incase of laspe Ill pick up for him. My thoughts. Overall the Minmatar is bonus is not that overblown, reason being I can shove a pistol on it and get no benefit, only the knives do So we're talking about a module that is going to only have 1/7th of the module's active effectiveness. Also all scouts have innate hacking bonuses preinstalled, just minmatar are going to be the most obvious. However do remember they are looking into nerfing the way damage mods work from outright reduction in percentages and further reducing the overall proficiency gains. NKs are likely to be least disturbed as they are a '5th' damage type that deals 100a/100s damage As for amarr disparity it is a decent point to bring up, it may be grounds for a percent more or so, also there is no stacking penalty against this bonus, so the first module adds an unadulterated bonus. Where as the gallente trying to match would lose out on total effectiveness. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5344	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:16:00 - [61] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: As for amarr disparity it is a decent point to bring up, it may be grounds for a percent more or so, also there is no stacking penalty against this bonus, so the first module adds an unadulterated bonus. Where as the gallente trying to match would lose out on total effectiveness. There is also no stacking penalty applied to the Gallente's profile dampening and scan radius bonus, no stacking penalty applied to the Caldari's scan precision and scan radius bonus, no stacking penalty applied to the Minmatar's hacking and NK bonus. So how does that change the fact that the Amarr scout racial bonus is no where near the same value as the other scouts? A few people have been saying "Well typically Amarr have one less slot than the other suits because higher base HP" as a means to justify this weak bonus. But that is based on old Dust racial combat philosophies. Look at the Commando and Sentinels, the Amarr variants have the same number of slots as well as a racial bonus that is on par with the rest. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5625	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:18:00 - [62] - Quote Buff Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 559	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:20:00 - [63] - Quote Why do the Caldari and Gallente have the same racial bonuses? All scouts should get the scan dampners bonus and then Gallente scan radius, Caldari get precision, Minmatar melee and Knives, and Amarr get stamina (10% increase per level instead of 5% might be cool).
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5346	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:30:00 - [64] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Why do the Caldari and Gallente have the same racial bonuses? All scouts should get the scan dampners bonus and then Gallente scan radius, Caldari get precision, Minmatar melee and Knives, and Amarr get stamina (10% increase per level instead of 5% might be cool). They're similar, but not the same. They both get a small scan radius buff and then a large buff to either scan precision or profile dampening. This is why it would perhaps make sense if you also add symmetry between the Amarr and Minmatar scout. Perhaps both could get a hacking bonus, and then a damage bonus to a specific weapon? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 342	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:34:00 - [65] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Reav Hannari wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: /This has been tagged by Kane Meaning it'll be presented by the CPM to be reviewed for further changes by CCP? Tagged past tense, its been brought to my attention as well so incase of laspe Ill pick up for him. My thoughts. Overall the Minmatar is bonus is not that overblown, reason being I can shove a pistol on it and get no benefit, only the knives do So we're talking about a module that is going to only have 1/7th of the module's active effectiveness. Also all scouts have innate hacking bonuses preinstalled, just minmatar are going to be the most obvious. However do remember they are looking into nerfing the way damage mods work from outright reduction in percentages and further reducing the overall proficiency gains. NKs are likely to be least disturbed as they are a '5th' damage type that deals 100a/100s damage As for amarr disparity it is a decent point to bring up, it may be grounds for a percent more or so, also there is no stacking penalty against this bonus, so the first module adds an unadulterated bonus. Where as the gallente trying to match would lose out on total effectiveness. Please for the love of god IWS stay out of balancing discussions. So, since the damage bonus only applies to 1 weapon, it doesn't matter? Well we might as well make the minmatar heavy have a 25% dmg bonus to HMgs, or the gallente 25% to forges, or .... well you get the point. You balance around MAX performance, and this bonus is INSANELY powerful (3 complex damge mods worth) Now add to that minmatar get a complex code breaker and a basic cde breaker and yes, the minmatar suit is INSANELY good. Also, a percent or two for amarr? The bonus is not even worth a BASIC mod!! You have got to be trolling. Respond to this: Do you think that it is ok for the minmatar suit to get 5 MODULES (4 complex modules!!) worth of bonus? Do you think that it is ok for the amarr suit to get 1 MODULE (not even a full militia module worth) of bonus? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5349	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:51:00 - [66] - Quote Saying that the Minmatar bonus doesn't count as multiple complex modules since it only affects one weapon is crazy. The name of the game is mimicry. If any of the other scouts want to mimic an Amarr scout, all they have to do is fit a standard cardiac regulator (and actually be superior with double the increase on stamina recovery). If any of the other scouts want to mimic a Gallente scout, they'd have to fit a standard range amplifier and a complex profile dampener. If any of the other scouts want to mimic a Caldari scout, they'd have to fit a standard range amplifier, a complex precision enhancer, and a standard precision enhancer. If any of the other scouts want to mimic a Minmatar scout, they'd have to fit a complex codebreaker, a nova knife, and three complex sidearm damage modifiers. And actually, since it looks like complex damage modifiers aren't going to be 10% anymore, they'd have to fit even more. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 678	Posted - 2014.01.17 23:00:00 - [67] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Also please drop this Minmatar complex damage bonus argument - its tied to one weapon. If that was the only sidearm in the game then you might have a point. - For knifers its great for the rest, not so much. Thats nonsense. You can't discount a bonus like that. The amarrian assault's old bonus and the future amarrian commando bonus will only apply to two weapons (scrambler/laser rifles), should we discount them as well? It doesn't change the fact that it is a bonus that is equivalent to 3 complex damage mods. It applies to laser weapons doesnt it - if there are more it will apply to them also. And you still have Laser, ScR or AScR - 2 weapons and a variant that can be used at varying ranges. - There is still some variety. I understand the argumentabout the bonus and agree with you guys but holding the knife bonus up as some great thing is stretching it and imo hurts your overall argument. In your blind spot CPM, Remnant, Wolfman - Respect ~
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 678	Posted - 2014.01.17 23:07:00 - [68] - Quote I dont think the name of the game is mimicry - it is maximising your playstyle. Besides, previously there were threads about if you wanted to be a knifer it was muc better to go gallente because you had more low slots and could get a better bonuses to see and not be seen and the 25% didnt end up being that much in action. I support your argument though. I also dont like the bonus because your suit already has more stamina and higher regen and 4 low slots . Being slightly slower with the most HP, I see all of that being very advantageous. In your blind spot CPM, Remnant, Wolfman - Respect ~
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 382	Posted - 2014.01.17 23:19:00 - [69] - Quote Over here I argued that the Amarr Scout in it's current form would still be useless even if it had infinite stamina. Since all Amarr suits are about 1-v-1 power I'd like there to be a fitting bonus to armor plates. That way an Amarr Scout could fit more complex (ferroscale) armor mods than any other scout and stomp on their faces in a direct fight. ... And then walk away with 10 hp left and no repairs.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5360	Posted - 2014.01.18 00:45:00 - [70] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: I dont think the name of the game is mimicry - it is maximising your playstyle. Besides, previously there were threads about if you wanted to be a knifer it was muc better to go gallente because you had more low slots and could get a better bonuses to see and not be seen and the 25% didnt end up being that much in action. I support your argument though. I also dont like the bonus because your suit already has more stamina and higher regen and 4 low slots . Being slightly slower with the most HP, I see all of that being very advantageous. I never said that Dust was about mimicry, what I said is if you are trying to balance the bonuses then you compare their value by mimicry. But yes, it turns out that the Amarr racial bonus is poorly undervalued compared to the rest. I'm attributing this to a rush to change the skill since everyone bitched about cloak specific skills, and they decided +5% per level would be good since that's what most skills are, but forgot that there is a reason why stamina modules have such high bonuses. Stamina is simply not as important of a stat. I'm not saying it is not important at all, but if you are going to give a bonus to it then it must be much greater than 5% per level. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Scheneighnay McBob Learning Coalition College 3600	Posted - 2014.01.18 01:38:00 - [71] - Quote lolamarr We used to have a time machine
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1203	Posted - 2014.01.18 01:40:00 - [72] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: lolamarr You speak when spoken to slave! "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5388	Posted - 2014.01.19 01:42:00 - [73] - Quote Amarr Bonus: 25% more stamina and 25% more stamina regen Standard Cardiac Regulator: 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina regen Gallente Bonus: 25% profile dampening (and 25% scan range) Complex Profile dampener: 25% profile dampening Caldari Bonus: 25% scan precision (and 25% scan range) Complex Precision Enhancer: 20% precision Minmatar Bonus: 25% hacking speed (and 25% NK damage) Complex Codebreaker: 25% hacking speed As you can see, every other race is getting a primary bonus that is the same or better than a complex module, and then a secondary bonus as well. Meanwhile, the Amarr only get a bonus that is not even as good as a standard module. Do you honestly think that is right? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5392	Posted - 2014.01.19 05:25:00 - [74] - Quote Copying over from the Scout Registry, Aero Yassavi wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: What I hate most about this is it may appear like I am only advocating so strongly for a better Amarr racial bonus because I favor the Amarr, but that is not the case at all. This bonus is simply not on par with the rest, and I'd be doing the same thing regardless of which race was getting gimped. Aero, I can see where you are coming from here, and honestly i do not think that you are pushing this as favouring the Amarr. Please understand that I am not arguing against you, and I hope you understand that I am not against balancing the Amarr scout. The thing is having the ability to but two complex Card Regs on a suit without a stacking penalty will not be good for balance. As I have said before it needs something else, what that is I don't know, but most of the suggestions I have seen are not likely to be balanced either. The confrontational attitude that many (not saying you, but you have verged on it before) take is not one that will produce good dialogue on the subject so I avoid it. Also don't imply that I am slow and need things put simply for me, this is very much not the case. I apologize if my teasing caused offence, honestly I don't think of your posts as whining Aero (and actually was not even thinking of you in that way at all). You are actually someone that I have respect for, and I actually enjoy reading what you have to say. I get what you're saying, but your argument is flawed. The Gallente can put on essentially two complex profile dampeners without stacking penalty, the Caldari can put on essentially two complex precision enhancers without stacking penalty, and the Minmatar can put on essentially two complex codebreakers without stacking penalty. So why is it only bad for Amarr? I'm not saying the bonus definitely has to be 20% stamina per level, but if it were it wouldn't be OP. The Amarr would inherently be able to sprint for 55 seconds, which is about how long anyone would be able to sprint with a complex cardiac regulator. And really if you used a complex cardiac regulator on a scout before, you'd know that there's really no point in going any higher. So say an Amarr scout gets this and does slap on a complex cardiac regulator in addition? So he can sprint for now 1 minute 50 seconds. This is opposed to a regular Amarr light frame who slaps on two complex regulators, gets the stacking penalty, and can run for 1 minute 42 seconds. That's what doesn't register with me, all the people fussing that giving the Amarr a free complex regulator are essentially fussing because they'd be able to sprint a whole 8 seconds longer. And really, how many times do you want to hold a sprint for over one minute anyways? So to sum up, Saying no stacking penalties apply is moot because the same can be said for the other races All no stacking penalty does is let an Amarr scout sprint for 1 minute 50 seconds instead of 1 minute 42 seconds. No one really sprints for longer than a minute anyways And I am not saying this needs to be the Amarr scout bonus, I am just saying there is nothing wrong with it either. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 831	Posted - 2014.01.19 05:50:00 - [75] - Quote you guys know the suit is bonused with stamina to begin with, right? 25% of the bonused base in actual numbers is actually pretty decent. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5893	Posted - 2014.01.19 06:56:00 - [76] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: you guys know the suit is bonused with stamina to begin with, right? 25% of the bonused base in actual numbers is actually pretty decent. But in no way is comparable to a proto profile dampener or Hack module....not to mention the other suits get a secondary bonus that we Amarr don't. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Morathi III Policeman of the Federation 96	Posted - 2014.01.19 07:04:00 - [77] - Quote In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think
Emerald Bellerophon Nenikekamen 99	Posted - 2014.01.19 07:12:00 - [78] - Quote With what they've done to Amarr assaults in their original conception on Sisi for 1.8, did you think ot would be better for scouts? Don't worry. Theu'll be OP in 1.9.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5395	Posted - 2014.01.19 07:26:00 - [79] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: you guys know the suit is bonused with stamina to begin with, right? 25% of the bonused base in actual numbers is actually pretty decent. You know that's an inherent Amarr trait that has been around since the beginning in Dust, right? And if you're going to start throwing out inherent abilities, you know Gallente has an inherent 3 hp/s armor repair rate? You can't be comparing the base stats with the quality of the bonus, they are completely separate. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5894	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:29:00 - [80] - Quote Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."

Morathi III Policeman of the Federation 96	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:39:00 - [81] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. True but like you say you dont have thn++¬ disadvantage of th+¬ slot less, i think too th+¬ suit lack +á bonus, my personnal feeling tend to go to get +á bonus with th+¬ uplink in my mind since its amarrian
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5404	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:45:00 - [82] - Quote Morathi III wrote: True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. True but like you say you dont have th+¬ disadvantage of th+¬ slot less, i think too th+¬ suit lack +á bonus, my personnal feeling tend to go to get +á bonus with th+¬ uplink in my mind since its amarrian But no other race gets the disadvantage of a loss of slot either. In fact, it seems CCP realized that the Amarr loss of a slot disadvantage was a bit ridiculous. Look at the new Amarr Sentinel and Amarr Commando stats, they have the same amount of slots as all the other races and also get more HP, more stamina, and an equal value racial bonus. All of this seemingly balanced by two factors: 1) Slow movement speed 2) The Amarr are an armor race, but actually get a considerable less amount of PG than the other armor race (Gallente). Try building some fits using these new stats, you are scraping for every last bit of PG even with skills as the way up. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5894	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:45:00 - [83] - Quote Morathi III wrote: True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. True but like you say you dont have th+¬ disadvantage of th+¬ slot less, i think too th+¬ suit lack +á bonus, my personnal feeling tend to go to get +á bonus with th+¬ uplink in my mind since its amarrian The logi already has that covered. Why should the Amarr scout get a sub par bonus towards a core aspect of scouting? You have yet to explain this. Mainly my question is. Why are the other suits getting the equivalent of Proto scout themed modules, but the Amarr is only getting a standard? They essentially have one built in complex module they don't have to fit, and can fit a second without the fitting penalties. However the argument seems to be that if the Amarr get a complex Cardiac regulator they will somehow be OP? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
GRIM GEAR The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 170	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:54:00 - [84] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Morathi III wrote: True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. True but like you say you dont have th+¬ disadvantage of th+¬ slot less, i think too th+¬ suit lack +á bonus, my personnal feeling tend to go to get +á bonus with th+¬ uplink in my mind since its amarrian But no other race gets the disadvantage of a loss of slot either. In fact, it seems CCP realized that the Amarr loss of a slot disadvantage was a bit ridiculous. Look at the new Amarr Sentinel and Amarr Commando stats, they have the same amount of slots as all the other races and also get more HP, more stamina, and an equal value racial bonus. All of this seemingly balanced by two factors: 1) Slow movement speed 2) The Amarr are an armor race, but actually get a considerable less amount of PG than the other armor race (Gallente). Try building some fits using these new stats, you are scraping for every last bit of PG even with skills as the way up. I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? It's a bird! No it's a plane! Never mind it's just my shotgun in your face!
Morathi III Policeman of the Federation 96	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:55:00 - [85] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. True but like you say you dont have th+¬ disadvantage of th+¬ slot less, i think too th+¬ suit lack +á bonus, my personnal feeling tend to go to get +á bonus with th+¬ uplink in my mind since its amarrian The logi already has that covered. Why should the Amarr scout get a sub par bonus towards a core aspect of scouting? You have yet to explain this. Mainly my question is. Why are the other suits getting the equivalent of Proto scout themed modules, but the Amarr is only getting a standard? They essentially have one built in complex module they don't have to fit, and can fit a second without the fitting penalties. However the argument seems to be that if the Amarr get a complex Cardiac regulator they will somehow be OP? Not necerelly covered by logi, you can have exemple 5% r+¬duction on spawn time per level + The current stAmina bonus If you want 2 excellent bonus, i think you need to lose +á slot did you dont think?
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5894	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:56:00 - [86] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Morathi III wrote: True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. True but like you say you dont have th+¬ disadvantage of th+¬ slot less, i think too th+¬ suit lack +á bonus, my personnal feeling tend to go to get +á bonus with th+¬ uplink in my mind since its amarrian But no other race gets the disadvantage of a loss of slot either. In fact, it seems CCP realized that the Amarr loss of a slot disadvantage was a bit ridiculous. Look at the new Amarr Sentinel and Amarr Commando stats, they have the same amount of slots as all the other races and also get more HP, more stamina, and an equal value racial bonus. All of this seemingly balanced by two factors: 1) Slow movement speed 2) The Amarr are an armor race, but actually get a considerable less amount of PG than the other armor race (Gallente). Try building some fits using these new stats, you are scraping for every last bit of PG even with skills as the way up. I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? I'm not sure CCP would make such a small minded and arbitrary decision as that. Even though some racial groups ship types eve side are not necessarily as good as others, the bonuses always make sense and are balanced. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5406	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:01:00 - [87] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? Why do you say the Amarr sentinels will be the best sentinels? What evidence do you have to that? I pointed out a few positives to it, but also some pretty big negatives. Honestly the Gallente sentinel is looking the best to me but hard to tell, they all look pretty good. So why does your theory-crafting on Amarr sentinels mean Amarr scouts should get gimped? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
GRIM GEAR The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 170	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:19:00 - [88] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? Why do you say the Amarr sentinels will be the best sentinels? What evidence do you have to that? I pointed out a few positives to it, but also some pretty big negatives. Honestly the Gallente sentinel is looking the best to me but hard to tell, they all look pretty good. So why does your theory-crafting on Amarr sentinels mean Amarr scouts should get gimped? Well theres having the highest hit points also the highest stamina and stamina regen and the second overall shield recharge rates. Theres not much else to compare between the heavy suits, they all get equal racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit does have the highest hit points by far also the highest stamina and stamina regen, though seems to lack compared to the other racial scout suits when it comes to racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit(SS) is third equal when it comes to shield recharge rates although it does come in first place with a combined total including core skills of 75 shield and 212 armour total of 287 ehp. The Caldari SS has 162 shield and 87 armour for a total ehp of 249. The Gallente SS has 87 shield and 162 armour for a total ehp of 249. Now the Minmatar SS has 125 shield and 87 armour for a total of 212 ehp. Thats a whopping 75 ehp difference between the Minmatar and Amarr scout suits, yet you feel hard done by because the Minmatar scout suit has a 5% increase to Nova Knives damage and hacking speed per level. Whereas the Amarr SS only receives a 5% bones to stamina and stamina regen per level. From what i can see the Minmatar Nova Knives bonus doesn't do diddly squat if Knova Knives are not being used , also the hacking bonus is very situational i mean theres nothing to worth whilehacking in an ambush battle not to mention to use it you have to be actually hacking something leaving you standing still like a dead man. Whereas the Amarr bonus is used no matter what you are doing or what you're situation is so on one hand we have the Minmatar suit racial skills which do jack **** if theres nothing to hack and if you're not using Nova KNives. Though on the other hand the Amarr get this awesome skill which they can make the most of in any situation. I am just starting to think (realise) YOU AMARR loyalists are a bunch of arrogrant pricks come D1ck Lords. It's a bird! No it's a plane! Never mind it's just my shotgun in your face!
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5894	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:23:00 - [89] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? Why do you say the Amarr sentinels will be the best sentinels? What evidence do you have to that? I pointed out a few positives to it, but also some pretty big negatives. Honestly the Gallente sentinel is looking the best to me but hard to tell, they all look pretty good. So why does your theory-crafting on Amarr sentinels mean Amarr scouts should get gimped? Well theres having the highest hit points also the highest stamina and stamina regen and the second overall shield recharge rates. Theres not much else to compare between the heavy suits, they all get equal racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit does have the highest hit points by far also the highest stamina and stamina regen, though seems to lack compared to the other racial scout suits when it comes to racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit(SS) is third equal when it comes to shield recharge rates although it does come in first place with a combined total including core skills of 75 shield and 212 armour total of 287 ehp. The Caldari SS has 162 shield and 87 armour for a total ehp of 249. The Gallente SS has 87 shield and 162 armour for a total ehp of 249. Now the Minmatar SS has 125 shield and 87 armour for a total of 212 ehp. Thats a whopping 75 ehp difference between the Minmatar and Amarr scout suits, yet you feel hard done by because the Minmatar scout suit has a 5% increase to Nova Knives damage and hacking speed per level. Whereas the Amarr SS only receives a 5% bones to stamina and stamina regen per level. You are failing to consider that one aspect of the Minmatar frame that makes it unique is the speed and shield regen rates. You cant argue basic facets of the suits and or the base racial differences. This is about the bonuses. Why some suits get proto level module bonuses and why on of the FOUR RACIAL groups does not. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
GRIM GEAR The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 170	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:46:00 - [90] - Quote True Adamance wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? Why do you say the Amarr sentinels will be the best sentinels? What evidence do you have to that? I pointed out a few positives to it, but also some pretty big negatives. Honestly the Gallente sentinel is looking the best to me but hard to tell, they all look pretty good. So why does your theory-crafting on Amarr sentinels mean Amarr scouts should get gimped? Well theres having the highest hit points also the highest stamina and stamina regen and the second overall shield recharge rates. Theres not much else to compare between the heavy suits, they all get equal racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit does have the highest hit points by far also the highest stamina and stamina regen, though seems to lack compared to the other racial scout suits when it comes to racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit(SS) is third equal when it comes to shield recharge rates although it does come in first place with a combined total including core skills of 75 shield and 212 armour total of 287 ehp. The Caldari SS has 162 shield and 87 armour for a total ehp of 249. The Gallente SS has 87 shield and 162 armour for a total ehp of 249. Now the Minmatar SS has 125 shield and 87 armour for a total of 212 ehp. Thats a whopping 75 ehp difference between the Minmatar and Amarr scout suits, yet you feel hard done by because the Minmatar scout suit has a 5% increase to Nova Knives damage and hacking speed per level. Whereas the Amarr SS only receives a 5% bones to stamina and stamina regen per level. You are failing to consider that one aspect of the Minmatar frame that makes it unique is the speed and shield regen rates. You cant argue basic facets of the suits and or the base racial differences. This is about the bonuses. Why some suits get proto level module bonuses and why on of the FOUR RACIAL groups does not. You Sir seem to be forgetting how good sprint speed is when you have no stamina to sprint with; do tell? By the way True Adamance you need to clean you're nose you seem to have some kind of fecal matter on it. It's a bird! No it's a plane! Never mind it's just my shotgun in your face!

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5410	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:50:00 - [91] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: You Sir seem to be forgetting how good sprint speed is when you have no stamina to sprint with; do tell? By the way True Adamance you need to clean you're nose you seem to have some kind of fecal matter on it. You sir seem to be forgetting that the Minmatar (and every other suit) don't just get more sprint speed than the Amarr, but also more movement speed. Movement speed, a stat that has no skills or modules to increase it's value. Movement speed that you can actually take advantage of while firing a weapon. The Amarr are stuck eternally at a slower movement speed and thus can't strafe as well. It's not all about sprinting. And yeah the stamina is nice, but the current values for the bonus are too low. Other suits get the equivalent of a complex mod and then some. Amarr get the equivalent of a standard mod. You think that's right? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5896	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:53:00 - [92] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: True Adamance wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? Why do you say the Amarr sentinels will be the best sentinels? What evidence do you have to that? I pointed out a few positives to it, but also some pretty big negatives. Honestly the Gallente sentinel is looking the best to me but hard to tell, they all look pretty good. So why does your theory-crafting on Amarr sentinels mean Amarr scouts should get gimped? Well theres having the highest hit points also the highest stamina and stamina regen and the second overall shield recharge rates. Theres not much else to compare between the heavy suits, they all get equal racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit does have the highest hit points by far also the highest stamina and stamina regen, though seems to lack compared to the other racial scout suits when it comes to racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit(SS) is third equal when it comes to shield recharge rates although it does come in first place with a combined total including core skills of 75 shield and 212 armour total of 287 ehp. The Caldari SS has 162 shield and 87 armour for a total ehp of 249. The Gallente SS has 87 shield and 162 armour for a total ehp of 249. Now the Minmatar SS has 125 shield and 87 armour for a total of 212 ehp. Thats a whopping 75 ehp difference between the Minmatar and Amarr scout suits, yet you feel hard done by because the Minmatar scout suit has a 5% increase to Nova Knives damage and hacking speed per level. Whereas the Amarr SS only receives a 5% bones to stamina and stamina regen per level. You are failing to consider that one aspect of the Minmatar frame that makes it unique is the speed and shield regen rates. You cant argue basic facets of the suits and or the base racial differences. This is about the bonuses. Why some suits get proto level module bonuses and why on of the FOUR RACIAL groups does not. You Sir seem to be forgetting how good sprint speed is when you have no stamina to sprint with; do tell? By the way True Adamance you need to clean you're nose you seem to have some kind of fecal matter on it. Doesn't matter, you have yet to address why 3 other racial variants should have the equivalent of complex modules as their bonuses and one shouldn't. You make yourself look less credible the more you dodge the question. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 170	Posted - 2014.01.19 12:55:00 - [93] - Quote 5% reduction on spawn time per level + 10 % stamina recovery and max stamina per level,,,or 5% reduction on spawn time per level + 3 % scrambler pistol damage per level,,,or 5 % stamina recovery and max stamina per level + 3 % scrambler pistol damage per level,,,or Amarr Scout Bonus: 5% reduction to cloak field cooldown per level( the best option)
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 232	Posted - 2014.01.19 14:40:00 - [94] - Quote MrShooter01 wrote: Crazy idea for amarr scout bonus: reduction to deployed drop uplink scan profile? At level 5, your drop uplinks would be all but invisible to any type of scan and must be hunted down visually Have to say I like this sort of creative thinking. Making each racial choice of scout have a specialist ability would be good I think. Only other 1.8 scout suit with this is minmatar's hack speed. Onto the general discussions here............ I dont think it's as easy as this to say something is or isn't balanced. Just converting suit bonuses into modules might be useful for vague comparisons, but it doesn't paint the whole picture. As an example (and as others have pointed out, and others have flamed), take the Minnie's 25% nova knife bonus at L5. That's not the equivalent of a complex sidearm damage module, because it only applies to the nova knife. That weapon is incredibly situational, only works for a specific play style, and difficult to use. I've read some of ppl here's arguments around you can't discount the NK bonus just because it only applies to one weapon, and I agree, but I don't think anybody is trying to discount it. But at the same time you can't also say this bonus is equivalent to x number of y meta-level modules of any other module either. That is just not apples to apples. Not really sure how to present this point in an easy to understand way. Consider this: what if you got the choice to decide between a 25% bonus to light weapon damage, or a 25% bonus to sidearm weapon damage? Would you say that suit A with the light bonus is better or worse off than suit B with the sidearm bonus? Pretty sure there isn't one answer here. It depends on your preferred fitting and playstyle. Due to the sheer amount of DPS you get with light weapons versus sidearms, as well as the much larger variation in weapon ranges and the fact the sidearm is supposed to be the weaker weapon group of the two, I think we'd be hearing screams if this was happening. So no, you can't just say two suits are balanced if, after converting each suit's bonuses to equivalent modules, the meta-levels add up to the same number. I think you'd have to figure out a way of weighting different modules to get a better comparison. Take the Amarr's stamina bonus. It's equivalent to a weaker module than complex, but that module applies to running and jumping, which a scout does a lot more of than any other suit. It is used more during gameplay, and is far less situational. I think you're overblowing the minmatar's knife bonuses. The suit may turn out to have more going for it than other suits, but not to the degree some here are suggesting. TL;DR Agree with Amarr suit needing a buff, but not sure all the logic behind your comparisons is accurate. Not acknowledging this, or just flaming instead of having a reasonable conversation about how you may or may not be comparing apples to apples, just serves to undermine your methods that bring you to a conclusion I happen to agree with.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 619	Posted - 2014.01.19 14:44:00 - [95] - Quote I think it boils down to this: amarr scout is slow; it's deficient in the entire raison d'+¬tre of a light frame. It needs a lot more advantages than "run slow for longer" to be worth it. "Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)" GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 1621	Posted - 2014.01.19 14:48:00 - [96] - Quote I'll just leave this here from page 2, it seems to have been overlooked by Mr. Gear. John Demonsbane wrote: Seriously though, why are you comparing base stats to bonuses? Those are different discussions. The fact that they are slower compensates for the higher eHP. This is true for every Amarr suit of every class. P.s. The brown nose comment is just sad. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor! Forum Warrior lv.1
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5425	Posted - 2014.01.19 15:17:00 - [97] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I'll just leave this here from page 2, it seems to have been overlooked by Mr. Gear. John Demonsbane wrote: Seriously though, why are you comparing base stats to bonuses? Those are different discussions. The fact that they are slower compensates for the higher eHP. This is true for every Amarr suit of every class. P.s. The brown nose comment is just sad. This is what I'm not understanding from everyone else. There are a ton of base stat differences between all the four suits that balance out with each other. If you think something is off, then make a point about it. However, base stats are completely separate from racial bonuses and are balanced separately. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5901	Posted - 2014.01.19 17:41:00 - [98] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I'll just leave this here from page 2, it seems to have been overlooked by Mr. Gear. John Demonsbane wrote: Seriously though, why are you comparing base stats to bonuses? Those are different discussions. The fact that they are slower compensates for the higher eHP. This is true for every Amarr suit of every class. P.s. The brown nose comment is just sad. Meh what he didn't know is that Aero and I were sitting on Skype discussing the suit, the bonuses, other potential bonuss, his commando fits, my scout fits, etc. Those aren't just his opinions, they are mine too. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1648	Posted - 2014.01.19 17:52:00 - [99] - Quote I haven't squared with you guys in a while.... "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Silas Swakhammer GamersForChrist Orion Empire 336	Posted - 2014.01.20 03:50:00 - [100] - Quote What about a bonus to max stamina and uplink spawn timer? It would still seem that the 5% per level would be too weak for both attributes. (An adequate bonus to uplink spawn timer would justify some SP into the Amarrian scout.) Pineapples on pizza.

KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3809	Posted - 2014.01.20 03:53:00 - [101] - Quote I;ve been thinking. If CCP does not change the amarr scout bonus i will have to get or either Gallente (a 100% better amarr scout) or Caldari for passive scanning... Pleas CCP.Can we have a blue tag to at leat know you are aware of this issue? GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 129	Posted - 2014.01.20 04:46:00 - [102] - Quote an uplink bonus would be bad, who always spawns with uplinks?
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1665	Posted - 2014.01.20 04:51:00 - [103] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: an uplink bonus would be bad, who always spawns with uplinks? A logi which is why the scout should get a bonus to the cloak as a primary bonus and stamina as a secondary. "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5520	Posted - 2014.01.20 05:04:00 - [104] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: an uplink bonus would be bad, who always spawns with uplinks? I do. Every spawn. If you keep your uplinks in the same place for too long you become too predictable, so I try to mix up the spawning locations as much as possible. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 283	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:21:00 - [105] - Quote While the theory is sound, the amarr scout already has 10% more stamina and 33% more regen over caldari and gallente before you factor any bonuses At level 5 supports and scout, the amarr has 295 stamina and 52.5 regen, 52.5 regen is INSANELY HIGH Under the proposed change to 100% to both stats, this would end up as 472.5 and 84 regen (for every 47 seconds of sprint, you need 6 seconds to regen it to full), Bare in mind that this is a scout that, at proto level, can reach 1000 hp without seriously denting its cpu and pg, there is more than enough left over for an (R) type nanohive, another equip and 2 weapons of choice Even as a runner scout, this would again be extremely unbalanced, there would be nothing stopping you fitting 3 sprint speed mods and becoming about as fast as a minny scout with higher stamina, regen and base health I do not support this idea Tech De Ra for CPM1
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5547	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:32:00 - [106] - Quote Here is what I don't understand about all the people who say the Amarr scout shouldn't get a bonus equivalent to a complex module like every other scout because they already have more base stamina: Say for a second they didn't. Say the Amarr Scout only had 200 stamina like the Caldari and Gallente scout. Then would you be ok with the bonus being equivalent to a complex module like every other scout? Because if so, then the stamina goes up to 400. So how is 281.25 stamina (225 * 1.25) a good fair bonus? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5943	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:34:00 - [107] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: While the theory is sound, the amarr scout already has 10% more stamina and 33% more regen over caldari and gallente before you factor any bonuses At level 5 supports and scout, the amarr has 295 stamina and 52.5 regen, 52.5 regen is INSANELY HIGH Under the proposed change to 100% to both stats, this would end up as 472.5 and 84 regen (for every 47 seconds of sprint, you need 6 seconds to regen it to full), Bare in mind that this is a scout that, at proto level, can reach 1000 hp without seriously denting its cpu and pg, there is more than enough left over for an (R) type nanohive, another equip and 2 weapons of choice Even as a runner scout, this would again be extremely unbalanced, there would be nothing stopping you fitting 3 sprint speed mods and becoming about as fast as a minny scout with higher stamina, regen and base health I do not support this idea What fool would try to use a 1000HP scout......you might as well run the Commando, or Logi. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 283	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:39:00 - [108] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: While the theory is sound, the amarr scout already has 10% more stamina and 33% more regen over caldari and gallente before you factor any bonuses At level 5 supports and scout, the amarr has 295 stamina and 52.5 regen, 52.5 regen is INSANELY HIGH Under the proposed change to 100% to both stats, this would end up as 472.5 and 84 regen (for every 47 seconds of sprint, you need 6 seconds to regen it to full), Bare in mind that this is a scout that, at proto level, can reach 1000 hp without seriously denting its cpu and pg, there is more than enough left over for an (R) type nanohive, another equip and 2 weapons of choice Even as a runner scout, this would again be extremely unbalanced, there would be nothing stopping you fitting 3 sprint speed mods and becoming about as fast as a minny scout with higher stamina, regen and base health I do not support this idea What fool would try to use a 1000HP scout......you might as well run the Commando, or Logi. much smaller hit box, more stamina, more equipment slots than commando, when you dont need the logi/commando bonuses, more speed, better hacking speed, better regen stats (shield, stamina) Tech De Ra for CPM1
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5944	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:44:00 - [109] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: True Adamance wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: While the theory is sound, the amarr scout already has 10% more stamina and 33% more regen over caldari and gallente before you factor any bonuses At level 5 supports and scout, the amarr has 295 stamina and 52.5 regen, 52.5 regen is INSANELY HIGH Under the proposed change to 100% to both stats, this would end up as 472.5 and 84 regen (for every 47 seconds of sprint, you need 6 seconds to regen it to full), Bare in mind that this is a scout that, at proto level, can reach 1000 hp without seriously denting its cpu and pg, there is more than enough left over for an (R) type nanohive, another equip and 2 weapons of choice Even as a runner scout, this would again be extremely unbalanced, there would be nothing stopping you fitting 3 sprint speed mods and becoming about as fast as a minny scout with higher stamina, regen and base health I do not support this idea What fool would try to use a 1000HP scout......you might as well run the Commando, or Logi. much smaller hit box, more stamina, more equipment slots than commando, when you dont need the logi/commando bonuses, more speed, better hacking speed, better regen stats (shield, stamina) And this is why FPS players are a garbage community. Not one player can seem to think of any other way than exploiting in game mechanics for their own game..... I have been waiting to use Amarrian weapons and Scout suits, and vehicles for months now... yet that will be ruined by twats like the people you describe? Hmmmmm. Wondering why people cant just embrace the role they selected. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5547	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:44:00 - [110] - Quote Have you even looked at CPU/PG for this or are you just assuming because you have slots you can fit whatever you want? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1068	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:46:00 - [111] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers not entirely correct. first, this is a damage bonus on the suit with the least amoutns of HP for a weapon that requires being in your face to work. and second, this bonus is NOT equal to several multiple sidearm damage mods, sidearm damage mods give a bonus to all sidearm weapons...
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5944	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:49:00 - [112] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: And now for the fun part, The Amarr Scout racial bonus is 5% stamina recovery and max stamina per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of less than one basic cardiac regulator, and that's it. A basic cardiac regulator does 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina recovery. you can sprint for 30seconds with max skill on this suit. you can basically sprint from one objective to another without ever stopping and you also forget the other build in bonus, which is the highest HP of all scout suits. Aero Yassavi wrote: The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers not entirely correct. first, this is a damage bonus on the suit with the least amoutns of HP for a weapon that requires being in your face to work. and second, this bonus is NOT equal to several multiple sidearm damage mods, sidearm damage mods give a bonus to all sidearm weapons... So my question to you is this. Why do you feel other suits deserve proto level module bonuses. Can you suggest something for the Amarr to put them on par with these other suit? Why should the Amarr suits barter for bonuses with their base stats which make them unique like the high shield of the Caldari, the high armour of the gallente, or the base speed of the Minmatar? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5548	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:50:00 - [113] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers not entirely correct. first, this is a damage bonus on the suit with the least amoutns of HP for a weapon that requires being in your face to work. and second, this bonus is NOT equal to several multiple sidearm damage mods, sidearm damage mods give a bonus to all sidearm weapons... Whatever your stance on that is, you can't deny the fact that there is still a complex codebreaker plus a secondary bonus, just like every other race except the Amarr who only get a bonus equivalent to a standard module (and actually not even as good because stamina recovery). Also there are several factors that make each race's suit unique. The various base factors all balance out within themselves. So that's where the argument for base stats stop. You can't say "Let's give this suit a better bonus because it has worse base stats" or "Let's give this suit a worse bonus because it has better base stats." If the base stats don't look balanced across all races, then tweak the base stats. Similarly, if the bonuses aren't balanced across all races, then tweak the bonuses. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 283	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:52:00 - [114] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Have you even looked at CPU/PG for this or are you just assuming because you have slots you can fit whatever you want? After skills, the ak.0 has 446 CPU and 92 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 cpu and 76 PG used 220 shield, 779 armor, 2 weapon slots, a grenade slot and an equip slot free, with 181 CPU and 16 PG free to fit them You should know me enough by now Aero that i don't comment on things that i can't back up :P Tech De Ra for CPM1
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5548	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:54:00 - [115] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Have you even looked at CPU/PG for this or are you just assuming because you have slots you can fit whatever you want? After skills, the ak.0 has 446 CPU and 92 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 cpu and 76 PG used 220 shield, 779 armor, 2 weapon slots and an equip slot free, with 181 CPU and 16 PG free to fit them You should know me enough by now Aero that i don't comment on things that i can't back up :P So what about the total HP if you do the same for the other suits? And what do you think the Amarr bonus should be? Do you think it is right that all other scouts get a bonus equivalent to a complex module plus a secondary bonus while Amarr only gets something not even as good as a standard module? If you think giving them a complex cardiac regulator free would be unfair, than what other complex mod do you think would be a better replacement? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Fristname Family name The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 42	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:56:00 - [116] - Quote They did this cause ammar sucks. No offence. +îf you want to get complex mod in bounuses how bout you spec into dropsuit biotics and then the dampeners, ect. Also i havent checked out slots but I might get a second scout suit. ___________killing tanks since 1989______ Hershal noooooooo :( ( walking dead
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5945	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:04:00 - [117] - Quote Fristname Family name wrote: They did this cause ammar sucks. No offence. +îf you want to get complex mod in bounuses how bout you spec into dropsuit biotics and then the dampeners, ect. Also i havent checked out slots but I might get a second scout suit. That's the poorest argument I have heard yet. We can have 2 bonuses, one of which being a proto level code breaker, but because you guys simply suck you can have **** bonus. Come on you can atleast troll better than that cant you? Either that or stop making yourself look foolish and vastly less credible. I'm just waiting on Aero now to finish his calculations on the Gallente Scout when brick tanked. Which would be amazing since you get similar fitting capacity, and a 15% scan radius bonus, and a 25% profile dampener. That to me seems like the much better OP choice. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 283	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:05:00 - [118] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Have you even looked at CPU/PG for this or are you just assuming because you have slots you can fit whatever you want? After skills, the ak.0 has 446 CPU and 92 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 cpu and 76 PG used 220 shield, 779 armor, 2 weapon slots and an equip slot free, with 181 CPU and 16 PG free to fit them You should know me enough by now Aero that i don't comment on things that i can't back up :P So what about the total HP if you do the same for the other suits? And what do you think the Amarr bonus should be? Do you think it is right that all other scouts get a bonus equivalent to a complex module plus a secondary bonus while Amarr only gets something not even as good as a standard module? If you think giving them a complex cardiac regulator free would be unfair, than what other complex mod do you think would be a better replacement? Gallente gets 50 hp less (949), caldari gets 188 less (811) but has a little cpu issue when you add other items, minmatar gets 143 less (856) but has PG issues Personally I would scrap the stamina bonus and grant a clipsize increase on the scrambler pistols, basically moving the old clipsize bonus from the minny assault, put it on the amarr scout Tech De Ra for CPM1
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1068	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:07:00 - [119] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: You can't say "Let's give this suit a better bonus because it has worse base stats" or "Let's give this suit a worse bonus because it has better base stats." sure, the amarr bonus could use a bit of tweaking but your assumption is wrong. actually you can and this is how balancing works. I also think the amarr bonus, while maybe a bit too low, is underrated by many. the amarr scout is obviously more geared towards combat with the HP it has and with the stamina bonus it can move around the map over long distances faster than other suits despite having the lowest sprint speed of all scouts and due to this provide flanking and firepower where it is needed.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1670	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:09:00 - [120] - Quote Fristname Family name wrote: They did this cause ammar sucks. No offence. +îf you want to get complex mod in bounuses how bout you spec into dropsuit biotics and then the dampeners, ect. Also i havent checked out slots but I might get a second scout suit. Why did you even post you literally provided zero let me type that again in all caps ZERO insightful information "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein

True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5946	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:10:00 - [121] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: You can't say "Let's give this suit a better bonus because it has worse base stats" or "Let's give this suit a worse bonus because it has better base stats." sure, the amarr bonus could use a bit of tweaking but your assumption is wrong. actually you can and this is how balancing works. I also think the amarr bonus, while maybe a bit too low, is underrated by many. the amarr scout is obviously more geared towards combat with the HP it has and with the stamina bonus it can move around the map over long distances faster than other suits despite having the lowest sprint speed of all scouts and due to this provide flanking and firepower where it is needed. So you would force the Amarr scout into a combat role where as all other scouts are what they are meant to be, scouting stealth roles? And that if I say wanted to run said suit I would be forced into a light Assault or Light Logi role? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5549	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:11:00 - [122] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Have you even looked at CPU/PG for this or are you just assuming because you have slots you can fit whatever you want? After skills, the ak.0 has 446 CPU and 92 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 cpu and 76 PG used 220 shield, 779 armor, 2 weapon slots, a grenade slot and an equip slot free, with 181 CPU and 16 PG free to fit them You should know me enough by now Aero that i don't comment on things that i can't back up :P So I took the liberty to do the same thing with the gk.0. After skills it has 433 CPU and 97 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 CPU and 76 PG used 233 shield, 729 armor, 2 weapon slots, a grenade slot, and an equip slot free with 168 CPU and 21 PG free to fit them That is 37 less EHP, 13 less CPU, 5 more PG, and faster than the Amarr scout. So yeah, tell me how this argument of Amarr being so combat ready that it doesn't deserve a bonus equivalent to a complex mod, yet the Gal scout is arguably more combat ready and can get a bonus equivalent to a complex mod plus a secondary bonus. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1670	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:14:00 - [123] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: You can't say "Let's give this suit a better bonus because it has worse base stats" or "Let's give this suit a worse bonus because it has better base stats." sure, the amarr bonus could use a bit of tweaking but your assumption is wrong. actually you can and this is how balancing works. I also think the amarr bonus, while maybe a bit too low, is underrated by many. the amarr scout is obviously more geared towards combat with the HP it has and with the stamina bonus it can move around the map over long distances faster than other suits despite having the lowest sprint speed of all scouts and due to this provide flanking and firepower where it is needed. In my thread the people who commented generally leaned towards the Amarr scout getting the old cloak bonus they had and an increase ( a little bitty tinny Winny increase to you complainers) to the already stamina max/Regan bonus which I completely agree with. "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 283	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:17:00 - [124] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Have you even looked at CPU/PG for this or are you just assuming because you have slots you can fit whatever you want? After skills, the ak.0 has 446 CPU and 92 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 cpu and 76 PG used 220 shield, 779 armor, 2 weapon slots, a grenade slot and an equip slot free, with 181 CPU and 16 PG free to fit them You should know me enough by now Aero that i don't comment on things that i can't back up :P So I took the liberty to do the same thing with the gk.0. After skills it has 433 CPU and 97 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 CPU and 76 PG used 233 shield, 729 armor, 2 weapon slots, a grenade slot, and an equip slot free with 168 CPU and 21 PG free to fit them That is 37 less EHP, 13 less CPU, 5 more PG, and faster than the Amarr scout. So yeah, tell me how this argument of Amarr being so combat ready that it doesn't deserve a bonus equivalent to a complex mod, yet the Gal scout is arguably more combat ready and can get a bonus equivalent to a complex mod plus a secondary bonus. at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match Tech De Ra for CPM1
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5549	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:18:00 - [125] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: You can't say "Let's give this suit a better bonus because it has worse base stats" or "Let's give this suit a worse bonus because it has better base stats." sure, the amarr bonus could use a bit of tweaking but your assumption is wrong. actually you can and this is how balancing works. I also think the amarr bonus, while maybe a bit too low, is underrated by many. the amarr scout is obviously more geared towards combat with the HP it has and with the stamina bonus it can move around the map over long distances faster than other suits despite having the lowest sprint speed of all scouts and due to this provide flanking and firepower where it is needed. Really? Because go look at the Amarr Commando bonus compared to every other racial bonus. Go look at the Amarr Sentinel bonus compared to every other racial bonus. Go look at the Amarr logistics bonus compared to every other racial bonus. Guess what? They are all exactly on par with all the other racial bonuses, despite the base stat differences, which if you go up a couple posts you'd see are actually not all that much better if at all. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5550	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:19:00 - [126] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1502	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:20:00 - [127] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match Who says the Minmatar Scout should be the long runner? I think Minnie Scout is more meant for short runs. Plus I think Gallente is already better for long runs over Minnie due to more low slots. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers!
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 283	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:22:00 - [128] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. The amarr scout already has nearly 50% more stamina and nearly double the stamina regen, While the gallente is getting a nice profile sig reduction, scanners are also getting buffed by way of the new gal logi bonuses and has a counter, stamina and its regen does not have a counter Tech De Ra for CPM1
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5550	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:23:00 - [129] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match Who says the Minmatar Scout should be the long runner? I think Minnie Scout is more meant for short runs. Plus I think Gallente is already better for long runs over Minnie due to more low slots. One of the important things you have to remember with the Minnie is movement speed. Movement speed is the one stat on dropsuits you can never increase, and directly impacts how good you are at strafing and such. Especially for a scout, this is probably one of the most important stats out there, and there is nothing the Amarr scout or any other scout could do to get to that same level of movement speed. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5949	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:25:00 - [130] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. The amarr scout already has nearly 50% more stamina and nearly double the stamina regen, While the gallente is getting a nice profile sig reduction, scanners are also getting buffed by way of the new gal logi bonuses and has a counter, stamina and its regen does not have a counter So you are saying that because 1 suit has a bonus to scanners that is fine when you consider leaving the Amarr suit with sub par bonuses, because as it stand the Gal Scout will evadae Adv scanners with no points invested into Profile dampening. And frankly speaking when you consider the scouts already have more biotic potential than assaults....... the ability to go unseen on passive and active scans is far more valuable. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5550	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:27:00 - [131] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. The amarr scout already has nearly 50% more stamina and nearly double the stamina regen, While the gallente is getting a nice profile sig reduction, scanners are also getting buffed by way of the new gal logi bonuses and has a counter, stamina and its regen does not have a counter Get your facts straight. The Amarr scout has 225 stamina compared to the Gallente and Caldari's 200 and Minmatar's 210. If you are saying with bonuses, then again everyone else is already getting far better bonuses the equivalent of a complex mod plus a secondary bonus. And while there may be one suit that will have better active scanners, and you can't really expect all scanners to be on just that one suit, you fail to realize that there is a counter to stamina, it is called speed. All other suits are quite faster than the Amarr scout. Heck, the Minmatar Assault suit is faster than the Amarr scout suit. While stamina is nice, it is countered by other scouts being faster which is arguably the more important of the two. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 283	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:28:00 - [132] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. The amarr scout already has nearly 50% more stamina and nearly double the stamina regen, While the gallente is getting a nice profile sig reduction, scanners are also getting buffed by way of the new gal logi bonuses and has a counter, stamina and its regen does not have a counter So you are saying that because 1 suit has a bonus to scanners that is fine when you consider leaving the Amarr suit with sub par bonuses, because as it stand the Gal Scout will evadae Adv scanners with no points invested into Profile dampening. And frankly speaking when you consider the scouts already have more biotic potential than assaults....... the ability to go unseen on passive and active scans is far more valuable. again, I am not against changing the current bonus to amarr scouts as i stated in a previous post Tech De Ra for CPM1
Wurm FOOD The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 28	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:29:00 - [133] - Quote I support the Amarr scouts need for a buff but I'll leave the finer points to better people like True and Aero to discuss seeing as you're doing so well. +1 Member of the Commando 6 All hail the Commando ak.0
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5553	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:30:00 - [134] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: again, I am not against changing the current bonus to amarr scouts as i stated in a previous post, i am merely against raising the bonus to that of a complex stamina mod Then how about you put a little more effort into proposing a solution then? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5949	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:31:00 - [135] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: True Adamance wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. The amarr scout already has nearly 50% more stamina and nearly double the stamina regen, While the gallente is getting a nice profile sig reduction, scanners are also getting buffed by way of the new gal logi bonuses and has a counter, stamina and its regen does not have a counter So you are saying that because 1 suit has a bonus to scanners that is fine when you consider leaving the Amarr suit with sub par bonuses, because as it stand the Gal Scout will evadae Adv scanners with no points invested into Profile dampening. And frankly speaking when you consider the scouts already have more biotic potential than assaults....... the ability to go unseen on passive and active scans is far more valuable. again, I am not against changing the current bonus to amarr scouts as i stated in a previous post, i am merely against raising the bonus to that of a complex stamina mod Do you consider it unreasonable to give Amarr scouts a complex Cardiac Regulator as the level 5 bonus? For upwards of 3 million SP and only one specific bonus as compared to the Gal, Cal, and Min bonuses we deserve something worthwhile. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 284	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:39:00 - [136] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Do you consider it unreasonable to give Amarr scouts a complex Cardiac Regulator as the level 5 bonus? For upwards of 3 million SP and only one specific bonus as compared to the Gal, Cal, and Min bonuses we deserve something worthwhile. I am against the notion of a scout suit with health near that of a base heavy, or commando, being able to run for almost 50 seconds straight, stopping for 5 seconds, then running 50 seconds straight again. The sheer amount of mobility that provides for something that is supposed to be the least mobile race of the 4 races simply makes no sense I have proposed another bonus in another post which was that of a clip size increase for the scrambler pistol, while people will complain that this is forcing a combat role on the scout, bare in mind that the amarr has a combat lore and it is reflected in its logi, the only logi that has a sidearm. Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: again, I am not against changing the current bonus to amarr scouts as i stated in a previous post, i am merely against raising the bonus to that of a complex stamina mod Then how about you put a little more effort into proposing a solution then? Please read my earlier posts and you will find that i am, instead of trying to berate me for trying to explain my reasonings and attempting to stop you putting words in my mouth Tech De Ra for CPM1
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5554	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:43:00 - [137] - Quote Tech De Ra, my apologies for missing this bit as this thread has been moving quickly Tech De Ra wrote: Personally I would scrap the stamina bonus and grant a clipsize increase on the scrambler pistols, basically moving the old clipsize bonus from the minny assault, put it on the amarr scout Here's the problem with this 1) Clipsize increase is already the Scrambler Pistol Operations skill, so this becomes redundant 2) Every other scout gets a primary racial bonus equivalent to a complex mod plus a secondary bonus as well ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 284	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:49:00 - [138] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra, my apologies for missing this bit as this thread has been moving quickly Tech De Ra wrote: Personally I would scrap the stamina bonus and grant a clipsize increase on the scrambler pistols, basically moving the old clipsize bonus from the minny assault, put it on the amarr scout Here's the problem with this 1) Clipsize increase is already the Scrambler Pistol Operations skill, so this becomes redundant 2) Every other scout gets a primary racial bonus equivalent to a complex mod plus a secondary bonus as well I wouldn't say its redundant, giving it more ammo on top of its operation skill would provide a unique, lore freindly, bonus that would define the amarr scout I understand your reasonings behind the bonuses, the theory is sound. But looking at the numbers (minny gets +37.5% hacking speed and 25% NK damage), caldari gets 25% precision, gal gets 25% damping, amarr gets about 45% more stamina and nearly 100% more regen over other scouts Numbers wise, its pretty much all in line, The main problem is that some scouts get 2 bonuses to the amarr's one bonus, perhaps giving it another bonus on the side of its stamina bonus would be in order Tech De Ra for CPM1
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5556	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:56:00 - [139] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra, my apologies for missing this bit as this thread has been moving quickly Tech De Ra wrote: Personally I would scrap the stamina bonus and grant a clipsize increase on the scrambler pistols, basically moving the old clipsize bonus from the minny assault, put it on the amarr scout Here's the problem with this 1) Clipsize increase is already the Scrambler Pistol Operations skill, so this becomes redundant 2) Every other scout gets a primary racial bonus equivalent to a complex mod plus a secondary bonus as well I wouldn't say its redundant, giving it more ammo on top of its operation skill would provide a unique, lore freindly, bonus that would define the amarr scout I understand your reasonings behind the bonuses, the theory is sound. But looking at the numbers (minny gets +37.5% hacking speed and 25% NK damage), caldari gets 25% precision, gal gets 25% damping, amarr gets about 45% more stamina and nearly 100% more regen over other scouts Numbers wise, its pretty much all in line, The main problem is that some scouts get 2 bonuses to the amarr's one bonus, perhaps giving it another bonus on the side of its stamina bonus would be in order Wait, so what is it, clipsize or ammo capacity? The ops skill is already a bonus to clip size, another bonus is indeed absolutely redundant. Also, please forgive me if this sounds condescending because it is not my intention, but are you perhaps only worried about making the Amarr racial bonus equivalent to the complex cardiac regulator because it would have to be 20% per level and you are used to seeing racial bonuses that are only 5% per level? Quite frankly, there is a reason why the complex cardiac regulator has a bonus of 100% instead of just 25% like nearly every other complex mod. If you compare stamina with any other stat one-on-one, stamina is not as valuable linearly speaking. That is why the complex caridac regulator is 100% increase. So yes, while it may look like 100% increase in stamina isn't roughly the same value as 37.5% hacking speed, 25% precision, or 25% dampening, I assure you it indeed is. If you do not believe this to be the case, then you should probably go campaigning to get the value of the complex cardiac regulator reduced. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 284	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:08:00 - [140] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra, my apologies for missing this bit as this thread has been moving quickly Tech De Ra wrote: Personally I would scrap the stamina bonus and grant a clipsize increase on the scrambler pistols, basically moving the old clipsize bonus from the minny assault, put it on the amarr scout Here's the problem with this 1) Clipsize increase is already the Scrambler Pistol Operations skill, so this becomes redundant 2) Every other scout gets a primary racial bonus equivalent to a complex mod plus a secondary bonus as well I wouldn't say its redundant, giving it more ammo on top of its operation skill would provide a unique, lore freindly, bonus that would define the amarr scout I understand your reasonings behind the bonuses, the theory is sound. But looking at the numbers (minny gets +37.5% hacking speed and 25% NK damage), caldari gets 25% precision, gal gets 25% damping, amarr gets about 45% more stamina and nearly 100% more regen over other scouts Numbers wise, its pretty much all in line, The main problem is that some scouts get 2 bonuses to the amarr's one bonus, perhaps giving it another bonus on the side of its stamina bonus would be in order Wait, so what is it, clipsize or ammo capacity? The ops skill is already a bonus to clip size, another bonus is indeed absolutely redundant. Also, please forgive me if this sounds condescending because it is not my intention, but are you perhaps only worried about making the Amarr racial bonus equivalent to the complex cardiac regulator because it would have to be 20% per level and you are used to seeing racial bonuses that are only 5% per level? Quite frankly, there is a reason why the complex cardiac regulator has a bonus of 100% instead of just 25% like nearly every other complex mod. If you compare stamina with any other stat one-on-one, stamina is not as valuable linearly speaking. That is why the complex caridac regulator is 100% increase. So yes, while it may look like 100% increase in stamina isn't roughly the same value as 37.5% hacking speed, 25% precision, or 25% dampening, I assure you it indeed is. If you do not believe this to be the case, then you should probably go campaigning to get the value of the complex cardiac regulator reduced. It could be either, I'm leaning towards ammo capacity because clip size would be a very imbalanced stat I still wouldn't say its redundant, the majority of deaths i have is when i run into a group of enemies and fail to kill all of them because i need to reload, going from 11 to 16 shots is a very substantial bonus, considering the fire rate and damage of the pistol this would be far too powerful of a bonus. it's not that the numbers need to match, its just that the amarr are supposed to have the lowest mobility of all the races, as it stands the regen allows it to run almost indefinately anyway, raising the bonus to that of a complex cardiac regulator would allow the scout to sprint pretty much non-stop. It just doesn't fit with the other amarr suits Tech De Ra for CPM1

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5563	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:17:00 - [141] - Quote Who said Amarr are supposed to have the least mobility? They are supposed to have the least speed, and they do. And even though it is Amarr, it is still a scout and needs to be treated like a scout. That's why I'd really rather not have the bonus be towards scrambler pistols, that is too combat oriented for what is a suit designed around avoiding scanners, scanning enemies, cloaking, and being mobile. I'm not dead set that the Amarr bonus needs to be towards stamina, but unless you want to have some overlap with other racial skills than there is not much else it could be. Again, the suit is a scout, so it needs a scout related bonus. This includes a bonus to the following: Stamina (biotics) Speed (biotics) Hand-to-hand combat (biotics) Scan radius (electronics) Scan precision (electronics) Profile dampening (electronics) Cloaking The bonuses for the other races all fall into one of these scouting categories, and so should the Amarr's. So what should it be if not the proper complex mod version of a cardiac regulator? And keep in mind, even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. While yes it could use a low slot to make it faster than the Minmatar, the Minmatar could use a low slot to make itself even faster as well. And even then, the Minmatar scout will always have a faster movement speed, a stat that cannot be increased with any skills or mods. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 284	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:29:00 - [142] - Quote Through out both games the amarr have the lowest mobility of the races due to its armor and range of lasers Amarr ships have the highest mass and therefore generally the highest align time and speeds, but they have amazing ranges and their capacitor systems are generally second to none Amarr suits have the lowest speed but the stamina to allow them to sprint longer distances as other races, but over a longer period, this is its (current) trade off for having higher base hp Giving the amarr scout even more stamina via the bonus would allow it to sprint much, MUCH further than other races using the same suit class, at the cost of having slightly lower speed but still a speed comparable with assault suits Thats my reasoning of them having the lowest mobility, and why the scout wouldnt fit that ideal Your comments on the pistols bonuses making the scout combat oriented doesn't take into account that the amarr logi, again, is also combat oriented. Your list does highlight that no one has a cloaking bonus, bringing back the cloak cooldown bonus and having that along side the current bonus would be good Tech De Ra for CPM1
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5563	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:36:00 - [143] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Giving the amarr scout even more stamina via the bonus would allow it to sprint much, MUCH further than other races using the same suit class, at the cost of having slightly lower speed but still a speed comparable with assault suits Speaking to this specifically, a 20% stamina per level bonus would put the Amarr Scout at 450 stamina, so able to sprint for 45 seconds. If a Gallente scout placed on a complex cardiac regulator, he'd have 400 stamina, and it'd be fair that the Gallente scout needs to add the module because the Amarr scout would need to add a complex profile dampener to match the Gallente's profile signature. For similar reasons, the Caldari scout would also be able to get 400 stamina and the Minmatar scout would get 420 stamina. So really, all this would do is increase the disparity between the Amarr's natural stamina bonus from 2.5 seconds to 5 seconds, that is an additional 2.5 seconds of sprint. Or in the case of comparing to the Minmatar scout, from 1.5 seconds to 3 seconds, that is an additional 1.5 seconds of sprint. As you can see, your notion that the Amarr scout would be able to sprint "much, MUCH further" is out of line. In fact, since the other scouts are actually faster they will probably go further than the Amarr scout, but I'd need to break out some basic algebra to check that. And I wouldn't mind a cloaking bonus returning for the Amarr scout as an alternative. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 481	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:40:00 - [144] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Who said Amarr are supposed to have the least mobility? They are supposed to have the least speed, and they do. And even though it is Amarr, it is still a scout and needs to be treated like a scout. That's why I'd really rather not have the bonus be towards scrambler pistols, that is too combat oriented for what is a suit designed around avoiding scanners, scanning enemies, cloaking, and being mobile. I'm not dead set that the Amarr bonus needs to be towards stamina, but unless you want to have some overlap with other racial skills than there is not much else it could be. Again, the suit is a scout, so it needs a scout related bonus. This includes a bonus to the following: Stamina (biotics) Speed (biotics) Hand-to-hand combat (biotics) Scan radius (electronics) Scan precision (electronics) Profile dampening (electronics) Cloaking The bonuses for the other races all fall into one of these scouting categories, and so should the Amarr's. So what should it be if not the proper complex mod version of a cardiac regulator? And keep in mind, even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. While yes it could use a low slot to make it faster than the Minmatar, the Minmatar could use a low slot to make itself even faster as well. And even then, the Minmatar scout will always have a faster movement speed, a stat that cannot be increased with any skills or mods. Although I agree that the amarr bonus seems slightly underwhelming its not a bad bonus at all. And stamina is just for running its justed for jumping as well. I can't count the times I died in my scout suit just because my stamina runs out in the wrong moment...
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 481	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:42:00 - [145] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. The amarr scout already has nearly 50% more stamina and nearly double the stamina regen, While the gallente is getting a nice profile sig reduction, scanners are also getting buffed by way of the new gal logi bonuses and has a counter, stamina and its regen does not have a counter So you are saying that because 1 suit has a bonus to scanners that is fine when you consider leaving the Amarr suit with sub par bonuses, because as it stand the Gal Scout will evadae Adv scanners with no points invested into Profile dampening. And frankly speaking when you consider the scouts already have more biotic potential than assaults....... the ability to go unseen on passive and active scans is far more valuable. To be honest ALL scouts will evade advanced scanners (unless the gallente logi comes to play)...
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5563	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:43:00 - [146] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Although I agree that the amarr bonus seems slightly underwhelming its not a bad bonus at all. And stamina is just for running its justed for jumping as well. I can't count the times I died in my scout suit just because my stamina runs out in the wrong moment... I am not saying that a bonus to stamina would be bad, all I'm saying is that in order to make it a bonus on par with the rest you'd need to increase how much per level it is. See the post directly above yours to see what I mean. Also jumping doesn't take away a set amount of stamina, rather a percentage of your total stamina. So no matter how much stamina you have, the number of times you can jump in succession is the same. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1504	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:52:00 - [147] - Quote I have no problem with making the Amarr Scout bonus 20% more stamina per level and 5% (or 10%, I don't know?) more stamina regen per level. That would make the Amarr Scout a long runner (but still slow at that), while Minnie would still be best for the short runs. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers!
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5563	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:53:00 - [148] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: I have no problem with making the Amarr Scout bonus 20% more stamina per level and 5% (or 10%, I don't know?) more stamina regen per level. That would make the Amarr Scout a long runner (but still slow at that), while Minnie would still be best for the short runs. The complex cardiac regulator is 100% more stamina and stamina regen ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 481	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:53:00 - [149] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: Although I agree that the amarr bonus seems slightly underwhelming its not a bad bonus at all. And stamina is just for running its justed for jumping as well. I can't count the times I died in my scout suit just because my stamina runs out in the wrong moment... I am not saying that a bonus to stamina would be bad, all I'm saying is that in order to make it a bonus on par with the rest you'd need to increase how much per level it is. See the post directly above yours to see what I mean. Also jumping doesn't take away a set amount of stamina, rather a percentage of your total stamina. So no matter how much stamina you have, the number of times you can jump in succession is the same. Yes you are right I forgot that stupid mechanic when it comes to jumping but regardless your stamina recovers a lot faster = more jumps... But in general I agree the Amarr bonus could get a buff.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1504	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:57:00 - [150] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: I have no problem with making the Amarr Scout bonus 20% more stamina per level and 5% (or 10%, I don't know?) more stamina regen per level. That would make the Amarr Scout a long runner (but still slow at that), while Minnie would still be best for the short runs. The complex cardiac regulator is 100% more stamina and stamina regen It's also 100% more regen? I couldn't remember, so that's why I wasn't sure what the bonus should be. In that case I think it should be 10% more regen per level. The bonus wouldn't quite be a free complex module, but it would be fairly close. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers!

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5566	Posted - 2014.01.20 12:00:00 - [151] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: I have no problem with making the Amarr Scout bonus 20% more stamina per level and 5% (or 10%, I don't know?) more stamina regen per level. That would make the Amarr Scout a long runner (but still slow at that), while Minnie would still be best for the short runs. The complex cardiac regulator is 100% more stamina and stamina regen It's also 100% more regen? I couldn't remember, so that's why I wasn't sure what the bonus should be. In that case I think it should be 10% more regen per level. The bonus wouldn't quite be a free complex module, but it would be fairly close. However, the Gallente Scout has exactly 1 free complex profile dampener and a scan radius increase, Caldari Scout has more than 1 free complex precision enhancers (complex precision enhancer is only 20%) and a scan radius increase, and Minmatar scout has exactly 1 free cardiac regulator and a NK damage bonus. So even with you agreeing that the Amarr racial bonus should be increased, why should it only be increased to almost a complex module and that's it? When everyone else is either a full complex module or more plus a secondary bonus? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1504	Posted - 2014.01.20 12:16:00 - [152] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: However, the Gallente Scout has exactly 1 free complex profile dampener and a scan radius increase, Caldari Scout has more than 1 free complex precision enhancers (complex precision enhancer is only 20%) and a scan radius increase, and Minmatar scout has exactly 1 free cardiac regulator and a NK damage bonus. So even with you agreeing that the Amarr racial bonus should be increased, why should it only be increased to almost a complex module and that's it? When everyone else is either a full complex module or more plus a secondary bonus? Caldari would still need to use another Precision Enhancer to detect people using damps (or Scouts). Plus he could use Range Amplifiers to increase his scan range. Gallente would still need to use another Dampener to avoid Gal Logi Proto Scanner. Minmatar could still use another Codebreaker to further decrease the hacking time or another Damage Mod to further increase the knife damage. Amarr on the other hand would likely never have to use another Cardiac module as he would always have plenty of stamina and stamina regen (I think?). That's what I think would balance it out, but that's just me. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers!
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12359	Posted - 2014.01.20 15:23:00 - [153] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Please for the love of god IWS stay out of balancing discussions. Be excessively careful who you want to discount because one can easily make fool of another. I just shot from the hip with gut feelings. Good thing I followed through. Amarr AK.0 (x = invalid) (* First worst to most worst) 25% Stamina and 25% Regeneration Rate 1 Light (x) 1 Side (x) 1 Grenade (x) 2 Equipment (x) 2 High (**) 4 Low () 70 Grid () 340 CPU () Armor 170 () Armor Heal 0 (x) Shields 60 (**) Shield Delay 4 () Full Delay 6 (*) Shield Refresh 30 hp/s () Hack Bonus 5% () Max Stamina 225 () Stamina Charge 40 sp/s () TTSM = 5.6 Secs () (Gk.0 is at 6.666... ranking *) Ground Speed 525/40(this assumes UE3 conversions) = 13.125 meters/s () (which seems wrong but for sake of measuring shoe sizes the /40 is tangible measurement for our needs here ) With Bonuses Applied Max Stamina 2251.25 = 281.25 Stamina Charge = 50 sp/s TTSM = 5.625 Throw in Biotics to V Max Stamina 281.251.05 = 295.05 Stamina Charge = 52.5 TTSM = 5.62 vs the GK 0's 210 31.5 and 6.666... Now lets throw car rads in, proto lvl 5 skills (10% bonus to the bonus yo) First one on each Complex Cardiac Regulator 110% Stamina 110% Recovery Ak. 0 MS 619.605 SC 110.25 TTSM 5.62 GS 13.25 m/s Gk. 0 MS 441 SC 66.15 TTSM 6.66 GS 13.625 m/s Stamina is consumed 10 units per second while sprinting, running does not penalize regeneration, sprinting adds 40% more speed so Ak. 0 13.251.4 = 18.55 Sprint speed 18.55(619.605/10) = 1149.37 Meters covered per sprint or 1.15 kms 5.62 Seconds to max stamina the amarrian would cover 74.4 meters Time is now 67.6 seconds with 1223.77 meters covered So True M/S is 18.10 m/s* Gk. 0 13.6251.4 = 19.075 Sprint Speed 19.075(441/10) = 841.21 meters covered 6.66 second to max stamina the gallente would cover 90.74 meters Time is now 60.7 seconds with only 931.95 So Ture M/S is 15.35 m/s Feeling Sorry for the Gallente I threw in a Kin Kat Complex at max level = 13.2% bonus (13.6251.132)1.4 = 21.5929 spring speed whoohoo 952 meters covered 6.66 covers 102.72 meters Time is 60.7 covering only 1054.72 True M/S is 17.375 m/s The gallente would almost have to use 3/4 lot slots just to compete against a single card reg amarrian. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2895	Posted - 2014.01.20 15:30:00 - [154] - Quote How has this conversation lasted so long? Just give the scout a different bonus. It's useless having that much stamina, and even with that aside, Cardiac Regs are some of the easiest modules to fit. There is little incentive to grab the scout instead of the light frame, when such a poor bonus is the reward. No.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1506	Posted - 2014.01.20 15:32:00 - [155] - Quote @IWS Speed is speed listed divided by 100. For example the Amarr Scout is 525/100 = 5.25 m/s movement speed. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers!
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1069	Posted - 2014.01.20 15:33:00 - [156] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. it is the slowest when you take the sprint distance of the other suits as base. it is the fastest over long sprints though. it can also bunny hop alot more in combat than any other suit.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12363	Posted - 2014.01.20 16:12:00 - [157] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: @IWS Speed is speed listed divided by 100. For example the Amarr Scout is 525/100 = 5.25 m/s movement speed. Ah thank you. We had issues on which was what back when vehicles stats were released. it shouldn't change the overall disparity between the two. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 130	Posted - 2014.01.20 16:24:00 - [158] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Monty Mole Clone wrote: an uplink bonus would be bad, who always spawns with uplinks? I do. Every spawn. If you keep your uplinks in the same place for too long you become too predictable, so I try to mix up the spawning locations as much as possible. giving them a bonus to uplinks means you have to spawn with them and use them everytime otherwise its a wasted equipment slot and a waste of a bonus. you could justify a logi spawning with them every death because they have more than 2 equipment slots and hopefully wont be using a cloak
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1678	Posted - 2014.01.20 16:30:00 - [159] - Quote Who would agree to a primary bonus to the cloak ( like nk's are to the the minja) and a sub bonus of stamina max and regain that's equal to a standard module? "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 130	Posted - 2014.01.20 16:47:00 - [160] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Who would agree to a primary bonus to the cloak ( like nk's are to the the minja) and a sub bonus of stamina max and regain that's equal to a standard module? i would very much like a fitting bonus to the cloak and then a bonus that shortens cooldown or something to that end

Vell0cet SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 812	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:22:00 - [161] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Who would agree to a primary bonus to the cloak ( like nk's are to the the minja) and a sub bonus of stamina max and regain that's equal to a standard module? I like this suggestion the best. Of all the scout suits, the Amarr will probably always be using a cloak. It is slower than the Minmatar assault (especially if plated), and it doesn't have inherent damp bonuses like the Gallente, so it's slow and easier to scan from the get-go. It's primary means of defense will be cloaking. You could plate the thing to hell and try to play as an assault, but I suspect this approach will be disastrous, and you'd be much better off running a real assault suit. Also, some people have been really downplaying the NK bonus on the Minmatar scout. I suspect those things are going to be absolutely devastating. You can OHK most suits with those without a charged shot, add the cloak to easily close distances unseen, and we're going to see a lot of knife kills in the kill feed. If people decide there should be absolutely no cloak bonuses (besides the fitting bonus), then the next best option is the ScP clip-size bonus. It will make going for headshot assassinations a more viable tactic, since misses aren't so severely punishing as they are now. I still think the NK bonus is significantly better, but I could live with the disparity. Maybe it's redundant with the scrambler pistol operations bonus, but that one is basically required for the gun to be viable at all, so it's less of a bonus, and more compensating for an initially severely limited clip size. The Amar scout bonus would feel more like a bonus, giving you the opportunity to try for more headshots. This doesn't reduce the TTK like the NK bonus, and is pretty balanced IMO. My last option (that nobody seems to like) would be a 10%/level vehicle damage bonus to remote explosives/proxi mines. This would fill the sabotage role (specifically mentioned by CCP Remnant but not explicitly filled through the existing scout suit bonuses), and help cut down on the tank spam as an additional AV tactic. Not my favorite option, but the small base HP advantage might give the Amarr scout a touch more survivalibility for getting in close to vehicles. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5594	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:26:00 - [162] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. it is the slowest when you take the sprint distance of the other suits as base. it is the fastest over long sprints though. it can also bunny hop alot more in combat than any other suit. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Caldari or Gallente suit, they can sprint for 42 seconds. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Minmatar suit, they can sprint for 44.1 seconds. This isn't really far off from 45 seconds. When you consider that these suits are faster, they would also travel more distance in this shorter time. And yes, it is fair that these suits would have to use a slot to achieve similar stamina performance, because an Amarr would also have to use a slot if it wanted to achieve similar profile dampening, scan precision, or hacking speed. Also stamina does not affect bunny hopping, because jumping uses a percent of your stamina, not a set amount. No matter how much stamina you have you cannot increase how many times you can jump in quick succession. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 483	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:30:00 - [163] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. it is the slowest when you take the sprint distance of the other suits as base. it is the fastest over long sprints though. it can also bunny hop alot more in combat than any other suit. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Caldari or Gallente suit, they can sprint for 42 seconds. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Minmatar suit, they can sprint for 44.1 seconds. This isn't really far off from 45 seconds. When you consider that these suits are faster, they would also travel more distance in this shorter time. And yes, it is fair that these suits would have to use a slot to achieve similar stamina performance, because an Amarr would also have to use a slot if it wanted to achieve similar profile dampening, scan precision, or hacking speed. Also stamina does not affect bunny hopping, because jumping uses a percent of your stamina, not a set amount. No matter how much stamina you have you cannot increase how many times you can jump in quick succession. The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again...
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5596	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:32:00 - [164] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. it is the slowest when you take the sprint distance of the other suits as base. it is the fastest over long sprints though. it can also bunny hop alot more in combat than any other suit. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Caldari or Gallente suit, they can sprint for 42 seconds. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Minmatar suit, they can sprint for 44.1 seconds. This isn't really far off from 45 seconds. When you consider that these suits are faster, they would also travel more distance in this shorter time. And yes, it is fair that these suits would have to use a slot to achieve similar stamina performance, because an Amarr would also have to use a slot if it wanted to achieve similar profile dampening, scan precision, or hacking speed. Also stamina does not affect bunny hopping, because jumping uses a percent of your stamina, not a set amount. No matter how much stamina you have you cannot increase how many times you can jump in quick succession. The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again... Well again, stamina regeneration would be comparable as soon as they add a complex cardiac regulator as mentioned above. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Vell0cet SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 812	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:35:00 - [165] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. it is the slowest when you take the sprint distance of the other suits as base. it is the fastest over long sprints though. it can also bunny hop alot more in combat than any other suit. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Caldari or Gallente suit, they can sprint for 42 seconds. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Minmatar suit, they can sprint for 44.1 seconds. This isn't really far off from 45 seconds. When you consider that these suits are faster, they would also travel more distance in this shorter time. And yes, it is fair that these suits would have to use a slot to achieve similar stamina performance, because an Amarr would also have to use a slot if it wanted to achieve similar profile dampening, scan precision, or hacking speed. Also stamina does not affect bunny hopping, because jumping uses a percent of your stamina, not a set amount. No matter how much stamina you have you cannot increase how many times you can jump in quick succession. The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again... You can bunny hop the same amount as other suits but can recharge the ability a bit faster, that is a pretty negligible advantage. Let's be serious. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1680	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:35:00 - [166] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. it is the slowest when you take the sprint distance of the other suits as base. it is the fastest over long sprints though. it can also bunny hop alot more in combat than any other suit. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Caldari or Gallente suit, they can sprint for 42 seconds. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Minmatar suit, they can sprint for 44.1 seconds. This isn't really far off from 45 seconds. When you consider that these suits are faster, they would also travel more distance in this shorter time. And yes, it is fair that these suits would have to use a slot to achieve similar stamina performance, because an Amarr would also have to use a slot if it wanted to achieve similar profile dampening, scan precision, or hacking speed. Also stamina does not affect bunny hopping, because jumping uses a percent of your stamina, not a set amount. No matter how much stamina you have you cannot increase how many times you can jump in quick succession. The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again... So this is your argument on why the Amarr scout should stay like this, because it can jump more than other scouts..... just don't... please don't. "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1506	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:35:00 - [167] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again... That's actually not true if you're raising both stamina and regen. If you're only raising regen then yes, as your stamina would hit the required percentage for jumping faster, but if you raise the stamina with the same amount, it will take the same amount of time before you can jump. Edit: If you raise stamina more than regen it will actually take more time before you can jump again. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers!
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 483	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:37:00 - [168] - Quote Regarding the Amarr bonus after thinking a bit longer I think its fine. Every secondary scout bonus alters one dropsuit base stat by 5 %. The same is true for the amarr scout. He gets +5% to stamina and + 5% to stamina regen, so it is perfectly in line with the other suits boni. The problem is the cardiac regulator that gives an incredible high bonus. This module is way more powerfull than any other percentage based module in the game. None of these grant a 100% bonus to any base stat not to speak from granting two 100% boni, this is kinda strange.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 483	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:39:00 - [169] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again... That's actually not true if you're raising both stamina and regen. If you're only raising regen then yes, as your stamina would hit the required percentage for jumping faster, but if you raise the stamina with the same amount, it will take the same amount of time before you can jump. Edit: If you raise stamina more than regen it will actually take more time before you can jump again. Ok thats a point I really havent thought about to the last end :/
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5596	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:43:00 - [170] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Regarding the Amarr bonus after thinking a bit longer I think its fine. Every secondary scout bonus alters one dropsuit base stat by 5 %. The same is true for the amarr scout. He gets +5% to stamina and + 5% to stamina regen, so it is perfectly in line with the other suits boni. The problem is the cardiac regulator that gives an incredible high bonus. This module is way more powerfull than any other percentage based module in the game. None of these grant a 100% bonus to any base stat not to speak from granting two 100% boni, this is kinda strange. It's not perfectly in line at all. First of all, all stats are not linearly valuable. Getting 5% more stamina isn't the same thing as 5% reduced profile signature, for example. That is why a complex cardiac regulator increases stamina and stamina regen by 100% while a complex profile dampener reduces your signature by only 25%. Also while stamina and stamina regen are two separate stats, they are achieved in the same module so it's still just one bonus, not a bonus and a secondary bonus. Profile dampening and scan radius aren't the same module, Scan precision and scan radius aren't the same module, hacking speed and NK damage aren't the same module. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 483	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:56:00 - [171] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: Regarding the Amarr bonus after thinking a bit longer I think its fine. Every secondary scout bonus alters one dropsuit base stat by 5 %. The same is true for the amarr scout. He gets +5% to stamina and + 5% to stamina regen, so it is perfectly in line with the other suits boni. The problem is the cardiac regulator that gives an incredible high bonus. This module is way more powerfull than any other percentage based module in the game. None of these grant a 100% bonus to any base stat not to speak from granting two 100% boni, this is kinda strange. It's not perfectly in line at all. First of all, all stats are not linearly valuable. Getting 5% more stamina isn't the same thing as 5% reduced profile signature, for example. That is why a complex cardiac regulator increases stamina and stamina regen by 100% while a complex profile dampener reduces your signature by only 25%. Also while stamina and stamina regen are two separate stats, they are achieved in the same module so it's still just one bonus, not a bonus and a secondary bonus. Profile dampening and scan radius aren't the same module, Scan precision and scan radius aren't the same module, hacking speed and NK damage aren't the same module. 5% to stamina and 5% to stamina regen are two boni two stats are changed, regardless if there is a module that do the same for both stats. Not the module gets a boost the two base stats are changed. And this is true for all scouts as all scouts get a change to two base stats. That modules do different things is another story... About the value of the base stat I would say its up more to your preferences, there is no law in dust that says satmina is less valuable than scan profile. So if you thing a bonus to profile dampening is more suited for your playstyle maybe the gallente scout is the right one for you. If you like to be more mobile and agile than maybe the amarr scout is the right one, if you want to run as mobile scanner maybe the caldari scout is the right for you. Note I did not mind a small buff to Amarr boni, I just think it is in linewith the other boni as all give the same percantage of bonus to same amount of stats.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 357	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:14:00 - [172] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Please for the love of god IWS stay out of balancing discussions. Be excessively careful who you want to discount because one can easily make fool of another. I just shot from the hip with gut feelings. Good thing I followed through. Amarr AK.0 (x = invalid) (* First worst to most worst) 25% Stamina and 25% Regeneration Rate 1 Light (x) 1 Side (x) 1 Grenade (x) 2 Equipment (x) 2 High (**) 4 Low () 70 Grid () 340 CPU () Armor 170 () Armor Heal 0 (x) Shields 60 (**) Shield Delay 4 () Full Delay 6 (*) Shield Refresh 30 hp/s () Hack Bonus 5% () Max Stamina 225 () Stamina Charge 40 sp/s () TTSM = 5.6 Secs () (Gk.0 is at 6.666... ranking *) Ground Speed 525/40(this assumes UE3 conversions) = 13.125 meters/s () (which seems wrong but for sake of measuring shoe sizes the /40 is tangible measurement for our needs here ) With Bonuses Applied Max Stamina 2251.25 = 281.25 Stamina Charge = 50 sp/s TTSM = 5.625 Throw in Biotics to V Max Stamina 281.251.05 = 295.05 Stamina Charge = 52.5 TTSM = 5.62 vs the GK 0's 210 31.5 and 6.666... Now lets throw car rads in, proto lvl 5 skills (10% bonus to the bonus yo) First one on each Complex Cardiac Regulator 110% Stamina 110% Recovery Ak. 0 MS 619.605 SC 110.25 TTSM 5.62 GS 13.25 m/s Gk. 0 MS 441 SC 66.15 TTSM 6.66 GS 13.625 m/s Stamina is consumed 10 units per second while sprinting, running does not penalize regeneration, sprinting adds 40% more speed so Ak. 0 13.251.4 = 18.55 Sprint speed 18.55(619.605/10) = 1149.37 Meters covered per sprint or 1.15 kms 5.62 Seconds to max stamina the amarrian would cover 74.4 meters Time is now 67.6 seconds with 1223.77 meters covered So True M/S is 18.10 m/s* Gk. 0 13.6251.4 = 19.075 Sprint Speed 19.075(441/10) = 841.21 meters covered 6.66 second to max stamina the gallente would cover 90.74 meters Time is now 60.7 seconds with only 931.95 So True M/S is 15.35 m/s Feeling Sorry for the Gallente I threw in a Kin Kat Complex at max level = 13.2% bonus (13.6251.132)1.4 = 21.5929 spring speed whoohoo 952 meters covered 6.66 covers 102.72 meters Time is 60.7 covering only 1054.72 True M/S is 17.375 m/s The gallente would almost have to use 3/4 lot slots just to compete against a single card reg amarrian. Also the other big thing that is probably going to bother everyone. There are no sensor stats on the suit sheet either so we have no idea how those stats are distributed. And now I just got asked to do the 5k run with everyone, bleh, wait one while I spread sheet fu this. Holy cow, you wrong about nearly everything you wrote there. Once again, you should stay out of balance discussions. So, you realize that all skill multipliers are, as the name implies, multiplicative right? So this means we can work with base stats and come out with the same ratios. Anyway, I don't even know where to begin. The amarrian suit is 96% as fast (walking/sprinting/whatever) as a caldar/gallente suit The amarrian suit is 93% as fast as a minmatar suit is The amarrian suit has (without bonuses) 12.5% more stamina and 33% more stamina recovery as a caldari/gallente suit 4% more stamina and 12.5% more stamina recovery as the minmatar suit So, advantages here are pretty slim to none. The amarrian suit is the slowest, and over the first 30 seconds of running will lag behind all the other suits. Of course for being the slowest, it gets a small HP (like 1 AR round worth) bonus. Just like how the minmatar suit is faster, but sacrifices some HP for that speed. Standard Dust/eve fair so far right? So, with a 5%/lvl bonus to stamina/recovery, the max bonus the amarrian suit can garner is 25% stamina/recovery. This means that the ENTIRE MAXED AMARRIAN BONUS CAN BE MITIGATED BY LESS THAN 1 MILITIA MODULE. How f-cking hard is this to understand IWS? 1 militia module and all of the other scouts are now comparatively better in EVERY way than the amarrian scout. It is so freaking simple I don't know how to explain it in a simpler way. The bonuses can be directly related to module effects, and as such can be directly related with modules. This way we can count the effectiveness of the bonuses in modules. In other words, if you fit this exact number of modules on a different suit, you would arrive at the same performance level as the suit in question. Minmatar suit bonuses = 5 modules (4 prototype and 1 basic) Gallente suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 1 adv 1 basic) Caldari suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 2 basic) Amarr suit bonuses = 1 module (less than 1 militia) While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5599	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:18:00 - [173] - Quote Thank you very much Magnus, I was working on a post like that as well because of how wrong IWS's statements were. I appreciate his work, but he should really double check before making such big claims. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 359	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:19:00 - [174] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: Regarding the Amarr bonus after thinking a bit longer I think its fine. Every secondary scout bonus alters one dropsuit base stat by 5 %. The same is true for the amarr scout. He gets +5% to stamina and + 5% to stamina regen, so it is perfectly in line with the other suits boni. The problem is the cardiac regulator that gives an incredible high bonus. This module is way more powerfull than any other percentage based module in the game. None of these grant a 100% bonus to any base stat not to speak from granting two 100% boni, this is kinda strange. It's not perfectly in line at all. First of all, all stats are not linearly valuable. Getting 5% more stamina isn't the same thing as 5% reduced profile signature, for example. That is why a complex cardiac regulator increases stamina and stamina regen by 100% while a complex profile dampener reduces your signature by only 25%. Also while stamina and stamina regen are two separate stats, they are achieved in the same module so it's still just one bonus, not a bonus and a secondary bonus. Profile dampening and scan radius aren't the same module, Scan precision and scan radius aren't the same module, hacking speed and NK damage aren't the same module. 5% to stamina and 5% to stamina regen are two boni two stats are changed, regardless if there is a module that do the same for both stats. Not the module gets a boost the two base stats are changed. And this is true for all scouts as all scouts get a change to two base stats. That modules do different things is another story... About the value of the base stat I would say its up more to your preferences, there is no law in dust that says satmina is less valuable than scan profile. So if you thing a bonus to profile dampening is more suited for your playstyle maybe the gallente scout is the right one for you. If you like to be more mobile and agile than maybe the amarr scout is the right one, if you want to run as mobile scanner maybe the caldari scout is the right for you. Note I did not mind a small buff to Amarr boni, I just think it is in linewith the other boni as all give the same percantage of bonus to same amount of stats. No While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 363	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:04:00 - [175] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Thank you very much Magnus, I was working on a post like that as well because of how wrong IWS's statements were. I appreciate his work, but he should really double check before making such big claims. No problem man. Just to be clear to everyone, I am not trying to make amarrian scouts better, I want to make them equal. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5965	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:08:00 - [176] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Please for the love of god IWS stay out of balancing discussions. Be excessively careful who you want to discount because one can easily make fool of another. I just shot from the hip with gut feelings. Good thing I followed through. Amarr AK.0 (x = invalid) (* First worst to most worst) 25% Stamina and 25% Regeneration Rate 1 Light (x) 1 Side (x) 1 Grenade (x) 2 Equipment (x) 2 High (**) 4 Low () 70 Grid () 340 CPU () Armor 170 () Armor Heal 0 (x) Shields 60 (**) Shield Delay 4 () Full Delay 6 (*) Shield Refresh 30 hp/s () Hack Bonus 5% () Max Stamina 225 () Stamina Charge 40 sp/s () TTSM = 5.6 Secs () (Gk.0 is at 6.666... ranking *) Ground Speed 525/40(this assumes UE3 conversions) = 13.125 meters/s () (which seems wrong but for sake of measuring shoe sizes the /40 is tangible measurement for our needs here ) With Bonuses Applied Max Stamina 2251.25 = 281.25 Stamina Charge = 50 sp/s TTSM = 5.625 Throw in Biotics to V Max Stamina 281.251.05 = 295.05 Stamina Charge = 52.5 TTSM = 5.62 vs the GK 0's 210 31.5 and 6.666... Now lets throw car rads in, proto lvl 5 skills (10% bonus to the bonus yo) First one on each Complex Cardiac Regulator 110% Stamina 110% Recovery Ak. 0 MS 619.605 SC 110.25 TTSM 5.62 GS 13.25 m/s Gk. 0 MS 441 SC 66.15 TTSM 6.66 GS 13.625 m/s Stamina is consumed 10 units per second while sprinting, running does not penalize regeneration, sprinting adds 40% more speed so Ak. 0 13.251.4 = 18.55 Sprint speed 18.55(619.605/10) = 1149.37 Meters covered per sprint or 1.15 kms 5.62 Seconds to max stamina the amarrian would cover 74.4 meters Time is now 67.6 seconds with 1223.77 meters covered So True M/S is 18.10 m/s* Gk. 0 13.6251.4 = 19.075 Sprint Speed 19.075(441/10) = 841.21 meters covered 6.66 second to max stamina the gallente would cover 90.74 meters Time is now 60.7 seconds with only 931.95 So True M/S is 15.35 m/s Feeling Sorry for the Gallente I threw in a Kin Kat Complex at max level = 13.2% bonus (13.6251.132)1.4 = 21.5929 spring speed whoohoo 952 meters covered 6.66 covers 102.72 meters Time is 60.7 covering only 1054.72 True M/S is 17.375 m/s The gallente would almost have to use 3/4 lot slots just to compete against a single card reg amarrian. Also the other big thing that is probably going to bother everyone. There are no sensor stats on the suit sheet either so we have no idea how those stats are distributed. And now I just got asked to do the 5k run with everyone, bleh, wait one while I spread sheet fu this. Holy cow, your wrong about nearly everything you wrote there. Once again, you should stay out of balance discussions. So, you realize that all skill multipliers are, as the name implies, multiplicative right? So this means we can work with base stats and come out with the same ratios. What I mean is we can leave out skills modifiers here as they just add work. Anyway, I don't even know where to begin. The amarrian suit is 96% as fast (walking/sprinting/whatever) as a caldar/gallente suit The amarrian suit is 93% as fast as a minmatar suit is The amarrian suit has (without bonuses) 12.5% more stamina and 33% more stamina recovery as a caldari/gallente suit 4% more stamina and 12.5% more stamina recovery as the minmatar suit So, advantages here are pretty slim to none. The amarrian suit is the slowest, and over the first 30 seconds of running will lag behind all the other suits. Of course for being the slowest, it gets a small HP (like 1 AR round worth) bonus. Just like how the minmatar suit is faster, but sacrifices some HP for that speed. Standard Dust/eve fair so far right? So, with a 5%/lvl bonus to stamina/recovery, the max bonus the amarrian suit can garner is 25% stamina/recovery. This means that the ENTIRE MAXED AMARRIAN BONUS CAN BE MITIGATED BY LESS THAN 1 MILITIA MODULE. How f-cking hard is this to understand IWS? 1 militia module and all of the other scouts are now comparatively better the amarrian scout. It is so freaking simple I don't know how to explain it in a simpler way. The bonuses can be directly related to module effects, and as such can be directly related with modules. This way we can count the effectiveness of the bonuses in modules. In other words, if you fit this exact number of modules on a different suit, you would arrive at the same performance level as the suit in question. Minmatar suit bonuses = 5 modules (4 prototype and 1 basic) Gallente suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 1 adv 1 basic) Caldari suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 2 basic) Amarr suit bonuses = 1 module (less than 1 militia) The underlined section is essentially the counter Llast36 mentions in another of his arguments. He said the Amarrian bonus cant be countered. I say the Amarrian bonus, due to the suits lows speed, is essentially countered until you hit this threshold where we can still run and the other scouts consume their stamina. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Rannici Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 146	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:08:00 - [177] - Quote good research. expect an invite from ancient exiles aboard science vessel douchecunt.
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2105	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:11:00 - [178] - Quote Okay Aero, I did some theorycrafting at work, and some number crunching at home. I saw in another thread that you guys wanted a reduction to Movement and Speed penalty to armor plates, but as I thought about it, that was a terrible idea. Every assault ever would take the suit and stack it to 700+ armor with no penalties. Combine with passive dampening, and the suit will be better than the assault. How about a bonus to ferroscale plates? This gives them a decent abiltiy to armor tank without sacrificing speed. Ferro's give 83 hp at proto. If they give the amarr 5% bonus per level they can get 101 armor out of a Complex Ferro. They can then fit the following: 2x Complex Ferro 1x Complex Rep 1x Complex Damp 1x Complex Shield 1x Complex L Damage mod This gives them 414 Armor and 148 shields for approximately 268 CPU and 59 PG. They also get 6hp/s armor rep and all of this at NO speed penalty. That's 562 eHP. That's a ton for a scout. AND they have a shield buffer and rep to go with it. The most combat scout of the 4. That leaves them around 30 PG and 157 CPU to fit their weapons and equipment. Sound good? I am open to feedback. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3263	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:24:00 - [179] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Okay Aero, I did some theorycrafting at work, and some number crunching at home. I saw in another thread that you guys wanted a reduction to Movement and Speed penalty to armor plates, but as I thought about it, that was a terrible idea. Every assault ever would take the suit and stack it to 700+ armor with no penalties. Combine with passive dampening, and the suit will be better than the assault. How about a bonus to ferroscale plates? This gives them a decent abiltiy to armor tank without sacrificing speed. Ferro's give 83 hp at proto. If they give the amarr 5% bonus per level they can get 101 armor out of a Complex Ferro. They can then fit the following: 2x Complex Ferro 1x Complex Rep 1x Complex Damp 1x Complex Shield 1x Complex L Damage mod This gives them 414 Armor and 148 shields for approximately 268 CPU and 59 PG. They also get 6hp/s armor rep and all of this at NO speed penalty. That's 562 eHP. That's a ton for a scout. AND they have a shield buffer and rep to go with it. The most combat scout of the 4. That leaves them around 30 PG and 157 CPU to fit their weapons and equipment. Sound good? I am open to feedback. How many EHP can a Minmatar assault fit at proto? With just passive bonuses (Armor and Shield upgrades), they have 356.25 ehp. Add 3 Complex Shield Extenders (with bonus) and you have 574 ehp. That's more than the scout and the Minny Assault still has 4 slots open (2H, 2L). The Minmatar Assault is faster than the Amarr Scout as well. Trying to make the scout tanky is a bad idea, its lack of speed advantage means the Minmatar Assault is better in every way. Join my cult.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5610	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:39:00 - [180] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Okay Aero, I did some theorycrafting at work, and some number crunching at home. I saw in another thread that you guys wanted a reduction to Movement and Speed penalty to armor plates, but as I thought about it, that was a terrible idea. Every assault ever would take the suit and stack it to 700+ armor with no penalties. Combine with passive dampening, and the suit will be better than the assault. How about a bonus to ferroscale plates? This gives them a decent abiltiy to armor tank without sacrificing speed. Ferro's give 83 hp at proto. If they give the amarr 5% bonus per level they can get 101 armor out of a Complex Ferro. They can then fit the following: 2x Complex Ferro 1x Complex Rep 1x Complex Damp 1x Complex Shield 1x Complex L Damage mod This gives them 414 Armor and 148 shields for approximately 268 CPU and 59 PG. They also get 6hp/s armor rep and all of this at NO speed penalty. That's 562 eHP. That's a ton for a scout. AND they have a shield buffer and rep to go with it. The most combat scout of the 4. That leaves them around 30 PG and 157 CPU to fit their weapons and equipment. Sound good? I am open to feedback. I'd be down for a bonus to ferroscale plates. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2687	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:44:00 - [181] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Trying to make the scout tanky is a bad idea, its lack of speed advantage means the Minmatar Assault is better in every way. The scout has a smaller hit box, the ability to efficiently fit a cloak, a higher shield recharge rate, two equipment slots and more stamina. So, not every way. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3265	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:01:00 - [182] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Trying to make the scout tanky is a bad idea, its lack of speed advantage means the Minmatar Assault is better in every way. The scout has a smaller hit box, the ability to efficiently fit a cloak, a higher shield recharge rate, two equipment slots and more stamina. So, not every way. The Amarr Scout is limited in being able to take advantage of the shield recharge rate. They have the lowest shield value of any of the scouts (60 base). With two highs at proto, this means they have the lowest possible max shield value of any proto suit in the game. It isn't that much of a strength. Their shield recharge rate is better than the Minmatar's, but compared to assaults in general it's not that great (Caldari standing at 25 hp/s base). The Shield recharge rate bonus on Assaults generally makes it higher too, putting a PRO Caldari above them in shield recharge, etc. The scout changes moved the dampened profile bonus to the base suit stat for all scouts, so they're all effectively dampened. The Assault might see a similar suit change as well, moving the shield recharge bonus to the base suit stats. The stamina and cloak wouldn't be about tanking, rather, that's about either avoiding a fight or starting an engagement on your terms. Your suit hp aren't a factor there. The two equipment slots also cease to be advantage when you factor in the cloak, if you count that - the scout only has one free slot. I'd prefer the Amarr scout were just faster than the assaults to begin with, but failing that.. trying to be a tank seems ill-advised. Join my cult.
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2106	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:12:00 - [183] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Okay Aero, I did some theorycrafting at work, and some number crunching at home. I saw in another thread that you guys wanted a reduction to Movement and Speed penalty to armor plates, but as I thought about it, that was a terrible idea. Every assault ever would take the suit and stack it to 700+ armor with no penalties. Combine with passive dampening, and the suit will be better than the assault. How about a bonus to ferroscale plates? This gives them a decent abiltiy to armor tank without sacrificing speed. Ferro's give 83 hp at proto. If they give the amarr 5% bonus per level they can get 101 armor out of a Complex Ferro. They can then fit the following: 2x Complex Ferro 1x Complex Rep 1x Complex Damp 1x Complex Shield 1x Complex L Damage mod This gives them 414 Armor and 148 shields for approximately 268 CPU and 59 PG. They also get 6hp/s armor rep and all of this at NO speed penalty. That's 562 eHP. That's a ton for a scout. AND they have a shield buffer and rep to go with it. The most combat scout of the 4. That leaves them around 30 PG and 157 CPU to fit their weapons and equipment. Sound good? I am open to feedback. How many EHP can a Minmatar assault fit at proto? With just passive bonuses (Armor and Shield upgrades), they have 356.25 ehp. Add 3 Complex Shield Extenders (with bonus) and you have 574 ehp. That's more than the scout and the Minny Assault still has 4 slots open (2H, 2L). The Minmatar Assault is faster than the Amarr Scout as well. Trying to make the scout tanky is a bad idea, its lack of speed advantage means the Minmatar Assault is better in every way. Well I certainly hope that the Min Assault will be tougher and faster than the Amarr scout. How else will the assault do it's job? My question is this. Can the Min Assault dodge scanners? Nope. Not by a longshot. The profile dampener is probably the biggest difference in your comparison. The min assault will be faster and tougher, but lack the ability to remain hidden. I'm not sure about you, but when it comes down to scouting, I'll take less eHP and speed for dampening EVERY DAY. The Amarr scout will be both tough and hard to detect, while retaining it's natural mobility. Those will be the biggest pluses to this suit. This build gives it a huge advantage over other scouts in the combat area. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2106	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:16:00 - [184] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Reav Hannari wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Trying to make the scout tanky is a bad idea, its lack of speed advantage means the Minmatar Assault is better in every way. The scout has a smaller hit box, the ability to efficiently fit a cloak, a higher shield recharge rate, two equipment slots and more stamina. So, not every way. I'd prefer the Amarr scout were just faster than the assaults to begin with, but failing that.. trying to be a tank seems ill-advised. People need to stop comparing scout's tanking to assault tanking. THE ASSAULT WILL ALWAYS TANK BETTER. Look at how well they eHP tank compared to the OTHER SCOUTS. My current MK.0 build has 350 eHP. That's it. I have excellent regen and speed, but my eHP is CRAP. The Gallente can get as much eHP as the amarr scout, but they lose their biggest strengths (their dampeners and natural speed) Caldari scout can get 450 shields, but it loses it's ability to have insane counter-scout abilities (Scan precision and range) The Amarr scout can tank reliably, and will destroy any other scout in a head to head battle. Pair up an Amarr scout with a Cal scout and go to town on the other scouts. You will wreck them, I guarantee it. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3265	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:29:00 - [185] - Quote A tank vs. scout scenario seems too fringe. I wouldn't want a bonus that makes the best tank... against other scouts. That's way too specific. Give me a means to make me a better SCOUT. Besides, even without a ferroscale bonus, the Amarr already has a hp edge (tiny though it may be) on other scouts. Taking a bonus in that direction would just give you a slightly better advantage... against scouts. You still wouldn't compete with assaults. As far as scanners, I believe you'd be sacrificing most of your low slots to avoid the focused proto scanner anyway, which would negate the usefulness of a ferroscale bonus. It's also "possible" that an assault could use a cloak, though we don't know the stats on those yet... or the new assault stats for that matter. Join my cult.
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 193	Posted - 2014.01.21 09:48:00 - [186] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: A tank vs. scout scenario seems too fringe. I wouldn't want a bonus that makes the best tank... against other scouts. That's way too specific. Give me a means to make me a better SCOUT. Besides, even without a ferroscale bonus, the Amarr already has a hp edge (tiny though it may be) on other scouts. Taking a bonus in that direction would just give you a slightly better advantage... against scouts. You still wouldn't compete with assaults. As far as scanners, I believe you'd be sacrificing most of your low slots to avoid the focused proto scanner anyway, which would negate the usefulness of a ferroscale bonus. It's also "possible" that an assault could use a cloak, though we don't know the stats on those yet... or the new assault stats for that matter. This. The Amarr favor armor and laser damage. That's a general theme. It doesn't mean everything Amarr needs to be "assault" themed. "The Tank Logi." "The Tank Scout" "The Tank Tank" That just gets silly. They do actually have differentiated roles in EVE. Their logistics, interceptor, ewar, etc. ships are all geared to achieve those roles, not some half-assed hybrid of that role. If they did they'd wind up the one race with a totally useless interceptor because they decided it needed 5 extra tons of armor instead of speed, or a logistics ship with no reppers. The biggest issue with the Amarr Scout (crap bonus aside) is that it doesn't actually have any speed advantage over assault suits. As long as there's an assault suit that's faster than the Amarr scout, it means that paradigm of the scout being the "faster" suit is gone. The speed is supposed to be part of a scout's protection. If you don't have any edge on a large chunk of the assault population, then that's an issue. That's something that needs to be addressed I think. Bonus-wise... anything tank-y is stupid and doesn't fit the role anymore than dampening would on a heavy. You'd be sacrificing what could be a useful actual "scout" bonus for to be a bad-tank with a marginal advantage over other scouts (not a speed one at all) and no real advantage on anything else.
Ronan Elsword Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 124	Posted - 2014.01.21 09:54:00 - [187] - Quote I don't plan on going Amarr scout, but they have easily the worst racial bonus. "Nice House you have here Gallente, you can just feel the Freedom." -Looks in Closet- "Dear God"
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3278	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:01:00 - [188] - Quote I'd like to see the Amarr scout faster too, but I don't see them kicking up the speed on every scout to compensate. Join my cult.

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 1166	Posted - 2014.01.22 03:46:00 - [189] - Quote Passing this on to the Design guys to have a look at. :) CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Viktor Hadah Jr Critical-Impact 2015	Posted - 2014.01.22 03:50:00 - [190] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Passing this on to the Design guys to have a look at. :) Thank you so much! hugs Selling Templar BPO 250Mil

Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1691	Posted - 2014.01.22 03:52:00 - [191] - Quote Omg omg omg omg he saw this "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Aqua-Regia 637	Posted - 2014.01.22 04:08:00 - [192] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: A tank vs. scout scenario seems too fringe. I wouldn't want a bonus that makes the best tank... against other scouts. That's way too specific. Give me a means to make me a better SCOUT. Besides, even without a ferroscale bonus, the Amarr already has a hp edge (tiny though it may be) on other scouts. Taking a bonus in that direction would just give you a slightly better advantage... against scouts. You still wouldn't compete with assaults. As far as scanners, I believe you'd be sacrificing most of your low slots to avoid the focused proto scanner anyway, which would negate the usefulness of a ferroscale bonus. It's also "possible" that an assault could use a cloak, though we don't know the stats on those yet... or the new assault stats for that matter. This. The Amarr favor armor and laser damage. That's a general theme. It doesn't mean everything Amarr needs to be "assault" themed. "The Tank Logi." "The Tank Scout" "The Tank Tank" That just gets silly. They do actually have differentiated roles in EVE. Their logistics, interceptor, ewar, etc. ships are all geared to achieve those roles, not some half-assed hybrid of that role. If they did they'd wind up the one race with a totally useless interceptor because they decided it needed 5 extra tons of armor instead of speed, or a logistics ship with no reppers. The biggest issue with the Amarr Scout (crap bonus aside) is that it doesn't actually have any speed advantage over assault suits. As long as there's an assault suit that's faster than the Amarr scout, it means that paradigm of the scout being the "faster" suit is gone. The speed is supposed to be part of a scout's protection. If you don't have any edge on a large chunk of the assault population, then that's an issue. That's something that needs to be addressed I think. Bonus-wise... anything tank-y is stupid and doesn't fit the role anymore than dampening would on a heavy. You'd be sacrificing what could be a useful actual "scout" bonus for to be a bad-tank with a marginal advantage over other scouts (not a speed one at all) and no real advantage on anything else. Why make all scout suit do the same crap? Why can't the Amarr scout suit be the black sheep of the scout family? Why do a scout suit need to be just hide an seek. So why can't a Amarr scout suit be a tanker scout than a half ass tanker scout. GòöGòºGòºGòºGòºGòºGòºGòùGöÉGòôBPO / BPC Collector Gòû Gòó *S00NGäó*GòPGò¼GòºGò¬GòñGòñGò¬GòñGòºGòºGòñGò¬GòñGòñGò¬GòñGòºGòºGòíHELLOGòPGûá GòÜGòñGòñGòñGòñGòñGòñGò¥Dust 514 GòPGò¢§GòÆGòúAmarrGòáGòòGòÆGòúRNDGòáGòò
fawkuima juggalo Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 854	Posted - 2014.01.22 04:08:00 - [193] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: The Caldari Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% scan precision per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex precision enhancer (actually a little more since complex precision enhancers are 20%) The Gallente Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% profile signature reduction per level At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex profile dampener. The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers And now for the fun part, The Amarr Scout racial bonus is 5% stamina recovery and max stamina per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of less than one basic cardiac regulator, and that's it. A basic cardiac regulator does 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina recovery. So all other races get a free complex module and then some, but Amarr scout gets the short end of the stick here. I think it would be more than fair to bump this bonus to 20% stamina recovery and max stamina per level, which at level 5 would be 100% bonus to each which is the equivalent of one complex cardiac regulator. Amarr Bonus: 25% more stamina and 25% more stamina regen Standard Cardiac Regulator: 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina regen Gallente Bonus: 25% profile dampening (and 25% scan range) Complex Profile dampener: 25% profile dampening Caldari Bonus: 25% scan precision (and 25% scan range) Complex Precision Enhancer: 20% precision Minmatar Bonus: 25% hacking speed (and 25% NK damage) Complex Codebreaker: 25% hacking speed As you can see, every other race is getting a primary bonus that is the same or better than a complex module, and then a secondary bonus as well. Meanwhile, the Amarr only get a bonus that is not even as good as a standard module. Do you honestly think that is right? +1 great post..... but the amarr needs to be hooked up even more then that . if they get 1 std and 1 complex it should be the same for amarr. - LOGI REGISTRY / H.O.F. *NEW SEC ADDED -
kal berlin Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.01.22 06:27:00 - [194] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Okay Aero, I did some theorycrafting at work, and some number crunching at home. I saw in another thread that you guys wanted a reduction to Movement and Speed penalty to armor plates, but as I thought about it, that was a terrible idea. Every assault ever would take the suit and stack it to 700+ armor with no penalties. Combine with passive dampening, and the suit will be better than the assault. How about a bonus to ferroscale plates? This gives them a decent abiltiy to armor tank without sacrificing speed. Ferro's give 83 hp at proto. If they give the amarr 5% bonus per level they can get 101 armor out of a Complex Ferro. They can then fit the following: 2x Complex Ferro 1x Complex Rep 1x Complex Damp 1x Complex Shield 1x Complex L Damage mod This gives them 414 Armor and 148 shields for approximately 268 CPU and 59 PG. They also get 6hp/s armor rep and all of this at NO speed penalty. That's 562 eHP. That's a ton for a scout. AND they have a shield buffer and rep to go with it. The most combat scout of the 4. That leaves them around 30 PG and 157 CPU to fit their weapons and equipment. Sound good? I am open to feedback. How many EHP can a Minmatar assault fit at proto? With just passive bonuses (Armor and Shield upgrades), they have 356.25 ehp. Add 3 Complex Shield Extenders (with bonus) and you have 574 ehp. That's more than the scout and the Minny Assault still has 4 slots open (2H, 2L). The Minmatar Assault is faster than the Amarr Scout as well. Trying to make the scout tanky is a bad idea, its lack of speed advantage means the Minmatar Assault is better in every way. Well I certainly hope that the Min Assault will be tougher and faster than the Amarr scout. How else will the assault do it's job? My question is this. Can the Min Assault dodge scanners? Nope. Not by a longshot. The profile dampener is probably the biggest difference in your comparison. The min assault will be faster and tougher, but lack the ability to remain hidden. I'm not sure about you, but when it comes down to scouting, I'll take less eHP and speed for dampening EVERY DAY. The Amarr scout will be both tough and hard to detect, while retaining it's natural mobility. Those will be the biggest pluses to this suit. This build gives it a huge advantage over other scouts in the combat area. THIS IS NOT TO BE OVERLOOKED! I agree with OP that it should have a much bigger bonus. now with that out of the way, I would like to point out what makes a scout awesome and what makes a scout a risk. scouts are good at 1. stealth 2 POSITION POSITION POSITIONING! 3 running the $%^&* away 4 intel gathering for the squad 5 Elusiive point defense 6 skirmishing and general destroying the organizations of an enemy team usually in small groups or solo what scouts are Not good at. frontline combat straightup defense like a tanking heavy at a point (upcoming situational analysis assumes that a competent scout is coming up on a well tanked asualt suit from behind) as you can see, the scout is amazing at alot of stuff that will give you advantage in the first 1.5 SECONDS (the time it takes the usual merc to realize whats happened and turn around to face you) of combat, from then on if you haven't killed or maimed your pray it is usually time to make use of speed and stealth again and run away. with that amarr scout build an amarr scout merc will most likely have an amazing 2.5 SECONDS of combat almost completely in his favor due to that extra bit of tank. as a solo scout the number one reason I die is not because I have not used and/or positioning to my advantage it's simply becuase I will sometimes not last long enough to finish the fight began. Therefore, as an advanced gallente scout I realize that this amarr scout build would likely increase my K/D ratio massively even with the pathetic race attribute. This is what I have drawn from my experience as an advanced scout. 1. I know how to use my suit's advantages 2. I know that sometimes even with the perfect positioning I will die due to being paper thin 3. It is not that I am messing something up 4. ADDED STAYING POWER IS WHAT ALL SCOUTERS CRAVE DEEP IN THEIR HEARTS at the moment. (witness the outcry against aim assist by scouts that nerf speed tanking and really all other kinds of tanking for scouts) So I say long live the AMARR ASSUALT SCOUT SUIT cuz thats what it's meant to do! ;)
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1993	Posted - 2014.01.22 18:09:00 - [195] - Quote What will kind of matter will be the distance a scout can travel while cloaked. Right now, assuming we can cloak while sprinting, that range for an ADV cloak is 60s worth of running. Only an amarr scout with a cloak would be able to sprint that whole speed, but it's low base speed means that it will only be about 20m further than any other scouts with complex regulators after 60s or about 450m. With the 80s cloak, they would probably not increase the gap by much at the 550m ish range. My suggestion is that the the sprint speed multiplier for scouts varies beyond just the 1.4 multiplier for everything. Even if you increased the amarr stamina pool to a complex regulator level, that would really help on the regen side of things, because beyond the 60s window you need to either be jumping a ton to notice a difference, or sprinting in circles. At 60s+ you are basically running from red line to red line. I guess the advantage of not having to fit a complex regulator would be the biggest win. Getting a complex regulator bonus and also fitting a complex regulator wouldn't help you do anything but maybe increase your stamina regen rate to the point where you could sprint jump a lot more.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 1529	Posted - 2014.01.22 18:41:00 - [196] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: What will kind of matter will be the distance a scout can travel while cloaked. Right now, assuming we can cloak while sprinting, that range for an ADV cloak is 60s worth of running. Only an amarr scout with a cloak would be able to sprint that whole speed, but it's low base speed means that it will only be about 20m further than any other scouts with complex regulators after 60s or about 450m. With the 80s cloak, they would probably not increase the gap by much at the 550m ish range. My suggestion is that the the sprint speed multiplier for scouts varies beyond just the 1.4 multiplier for everything. Even if you increased the amarr stamina pool to a complex regulator level, that would really help on the regen side of things, because beyond the 60s window you need to either be jumping a ton to notice a difference, or sprinting in circles. At 60s+ you are basically running from red line to red line. I guess the advantage of not having to fit a complex regulator would be the biggest win. Getting a complex regulator bonus and also fitting a complex regulator wouldn't help you do anything but maybe increase your stamina regen rate to the point where you could sprint jump a lot more. From what I understand more movement creates more visibility or shimmer with the cloak, so stamina for distance is a benefit, rather than sprint speed. This of course depends on the amount of shimmer to movement ratioGÇª which we don't really know. Increasing the Stamina bonus is essentially eliminating the need to fit a Card, so it saves cpu/pg (which is marginal compared to other mods, not a huge benefit.) potentially saves a lot of sp, as you don't need to skill into biotics (unless you want to of course), and creates a free slot to fill with whatever you want (generally stacking Card is not a thing, unlike Damp, Precision, HP, Range amps, hacking, Damage mods, Kincats, repsGÇª ) KRRROOOOOOM
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 1110	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:01:00 - [197] - Quote agreed. bring it in line with the rest of the suits.
Vell0cet SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 820	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:05:00 - [198] - Quote Now that we have the cloak info, I'm pretty convinced that I just want the original cloaking bonus (reduced recharge) + a small stamina bonus. Amarr scouts will be terrible without a cloak. They are slow (especially if plated) they aren't bonused against scanners, they will be like weak versions of the Minmatar Assault if not fitting the cloak. The cloak will be the Amarr scout's primary means of defense, and they're the most "technologically advanced" race so a bonus to cloaks makes sense with the lore. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6080	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:14:00 - [199] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Now that we have the cloak info, I'm pretty convinced that I just want the original cloaking bonus (reduced recharge) + a small stamina bonus. Amarr scouts will be terrible without a cloak. They are slow (especially if plated) they aren't bonused against scanners, they will be like weak versions of the Minmatar Assault if not fitting the cloak. The cloak will be the Amarr scout's primary means of defense, and they're the most "technologically advanced" race so a bonus to cloaks makes sense with the lore. However we can't really neglect game balance like that. Let Amarr scouts have cloak bonuses and we become the FoTM of scouts. Let the Gal be the FoTM of scouts. Gal Scout= best assault in the game. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Vell0cet SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 820	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:52:00 - [200] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Now that we have the cloak info, I'm pretty convinced that I just want the original cloaking bonus (reduced recharge) + a small stamina bonus. Amarr scouts will be terrible without a cloak. They are slow (especially if plated) they aren't bonused against scanners, they will be like weak versions of the Minmatar Assault if not fitting the cloak. The cloak will be the Amarr scout's primary means of defense, and they're the most "technologically advanced" race so a bonus to cloaks makes sense with the lore. However we can't really neglect game balance like that. Let Amarr scouts have cloak bonuses and we become the FoTM of scouts. Let the Gal be the FoTM of scouts. Gal Scout= best assault in the game. I don't think the cloak bonus will make the Amarr scout the FOTM. Other scouts have a TON going for them and shaving a few seconds off of the cloak recharge isn't exactly game-breaking. I think Minjas with Nova Knives are going to be the real threat: they're already very deadly in the right hands now, give them cloaks and they're going to tear people to pieces. Again, our natural racial strengths (plates and HP's) aren't an advantage on the scout suit. Scouts tank via stealth, speed and surprise. The cloak will be our main strength. *Running slowly for a long time is just fcking stupid!** I could hop in an LAV, get where I need to be and then cloak up in much less time. The bonus will only come into play when you've drained your STA pool, unlike bonuses to profile damps which are effective the entire match. Cloak bonus makes sense, it's not OP, but it makes it possible for the Amarr scout to spend more time cloaked in a match (but doesn't increase the duration of the cloak) by having shorter "down time" which will be it's primary defense mechanism. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea

The-Errorist 476	Posted - 2014.01.23 00:43:00 - [201] - Quote This is an OUTRAGE!!
Verek Locusti Storm Ventures For All Mankind 13	Posted - 2014.01.23 09:25:00 - [202] - Quote +1 Think a lot of people are underestimating how useful the stamina is, but the suit's bonus as-is falls far behind the others. Could probably use an additional bonus as well, perhaps a fitting req reduction on scrambler weps or uplinks, or possibly a bonus to rep modules.
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 239	Posted - 2014.01.25 12:30:00 - [203] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: It is so freaking simple I don't know how to explain it in a simpler way. The bonuses can be directly related to module effects, and as such can be directly related with modules. This way we can count the effectiveness of the bonuses in modules. In other words, if you fit this exact number of modules on a different suit, you would arrive at the same performance level as the suit in question. Minmatar suit bonuses = 5 modules (4 prototype and 1 basic) Gallente suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 1 adv 1 basic) Caldari suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 2 basic) Amarr suit bonuses = 1 module (less than 1 militia) Have to disagree with you there - they simply are not directly comparable. If it was that simple, wouldn't balancing be easy? Clearly it is not. Again first of all, let me say that I agree with the Amarr scout suit needing something better. But your methods you use to try and prove that with numbers are inaccurate. I refer to an earlier post of mine. Take a complex sidearm damage module, and a complex light weapon damage module. Assume the same bonus for each one. You're saying that, if you put one bonus as a suit skill on suit A, and the other on suit B, then you've achieved perfect balance. But it's simply not true, is it? Would you say that is balanced? I dunno, maybe you would, I certainly wouldn't. Have you considered how the figures might look if you tried to factor the bonuses a different way? Let's say you broke each one down to it's lowest component, for example, Nova Knife damage bonus, Assault Rifle damage bonus, Nova Knife charge bonus, Assault Rifle kick bonus, etc. etc. - that's a long list. Then you attribute a weighting to each of these based on how powerful you think the effect is. Then, take all the modules you might want to fit, and break those bonuses down too. So a sidearm damage module would equate to NK bonus + ScrP bonus + Flaylock bonus etc etc. Then do the same for light weapon damage module: AR bonus + Shotgun bonus + Sniper Rifle bonus etc. Then depending on which weapons you fit, you can calculate the relative power of each suit in a much more accurate way that takes into account your opinion on whether an AR damage mod beats a scrambler pistol damage mod. Sure that's far harder and a lot more involved, but without weighting equivalent valued bonuses or modules against each other, any proofs you try to show us all without acknowledging their inaccuracies are just gonna make ppl think you're being stubborn and refusing to accept anything other than your way. Could you give me your counter-argument to this? Say you disagree and why? One of us will learn something :)


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