It's also 100% more regen? I couldn't remember, so that's why I wasn't sure what the bonus should be.

In that case I think it should be 10% more regen per level.

The bonus wouldn't quite be a free complex module, but it would be fairly close.

However, the Gallente Scout has exactly 1 free complex profile dampener and a scan radius increase, Caldari Scout has more than 1 free complex precision enhancers (complex precision enhancer is only 20%) and a scan radius increase, and Minmatar scout has exactly 1 free cardiac regulator and a NK damage bonus.

So even with you agreeing that the Amarr racial bonus should be increased, why should it only be increased to almost a complex module and that's it? When everyone else is either a full complex module or more plus a secondary bonus?

Please for the love of god IWS stay out of balancing discussions.

even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest.

@IWS

Speed is speed listed divided by 100.

For example the Amarr Scout is 525/100 = 5.25 m/s movement speed.

I do. Every spawn. If you keep your uplinks in the same place for too long you become too predictable, so I try to mix up the spawning locations as much as possible.

Who would agree to a primary bonus to the cloak ( like nk's are to the the minja) and a sub bonus of stamina max and regain that's equal to a standard module?

Who would agree to a primary bonus to the cloak ( like nk's are to the the minja) and a sub bonus of stamina max and regain that's equal to a standard module?

it is the slowest when you take the sprint distance of the other suits as base.
it is the fastest over long sprints though. it can also bunny hop alot more in combat than any other suit.

When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Caldari or Gallente suit, they can sprint for 42 seconds. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Minmatar suit, they can sprint for 44.1 seconds. This isn't really far off from 45 seconds. When you consider that these suits are faster, they would also travel more distance in this shorter time. And yes, it is fair that these suits would have to use a slot to achieve similar stamina performance, because an Amarr would also have to use a slot if it wanted to achieve similar profile dampening, scan precision, or hacking speed.

Also stamina does not affect bunny hopping, because jumping uses a percent of your stamina, not a set amount. No matter how much stamina you have you cannot increase how many times you can jump in quick succession.

The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again...

The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again...

The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again...

The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again...

That's actually not true if you're raising both stamina and regen.

If you're only raising regen then yes, as your stamina would hit the required percentage for jumping faster, but if you raise the stamina with the same amount, it will take the same amount of time before you can jump.

Edit: If you raise stamina more than regen it will actually take more time before you can jump again.

Regarding the Amarr bonus after thinking a bit longer I think its fine. Every secondary scout bonus alters one dropsuit base stat by 5 %. The same is true for the amarr scout.

He gets +5% to stamina and + 5% to stamina regen, so it is perfectly in line with the other suits boni.

The problem is the cardiac regulator that gives an incredible high bonus. This module is way more powerfull than any other percentage based module in the game.

None of these grant a 100% bonus to any base stat not to speak from granting two 100% boni, this is kinda strange.

It's not perfectly in line at all. First of all, all stats are not linearly valuable. Getting 5% more stamina isn't the same thing as 5% reduced profile signature, for example. That is why a complex cardiac regulator increases stamina and stamina regen by 100% while a complex profile dampener reduces your signature by only 25%.

Also while stamina and stamina regen are two separate stats, they are achieved in the same module so it's still just one bonus, not a bonus and a secondary bonus. Profile dampening and scan radius aren't the same module, Scan precision and scan radius aren't the same module, hacking speed and NK damage aren't the same module.

Be excessively careful who you want to discount because one can easily make fool of another. I just shot from the hip with gut feelings. Good thing I followed through.

Amarr AK.0 (x = invalid) (* First worst to most worst)

25% Stamina and 25% Regeneration Rate
1 Light (x)
1 Side (x)
1 Grenade (x)
2 Equipment (x)
2 High (***)
4 Low (*)
70 Grid (**)
340 CPU (***)

Armor 170 (*)
Armor Heal 0 (x)
Shields 60 (****)
Shield Delay 4 (**)
Full Delay 6 (***)
Shield Refresh 30 hp/s (***)

Hack Bonus 5% (**)

Max Stamina 225 (*)
Stamina Charge 40 sp/s (*)
TTSM = 5.6 Secs (*) (Gk.0 is at 6.666... ranking ***)
Ground Speed 525/40(this assumes UE3 conversions) = 13.125 meters/s (***) (which seems wrong but for sake of measuring shoe sizes the /40 is tangible measurement for our needs here )

With Bonuses Applied

Max Stamina 225*1.25 = 281.25
Stamina Charge = 50 sp/s
TTSM = 5.625

Throw in Biotics to V

Max Stamina 281.25*1.05 = 295.05
Stamina Charge = 52.5
TTSM = 5.62

vs the GK 0's
210
31.5
and 6.666...

Now lets throw car rads in, proto lvl 5 skills (10% bonus to the bonus yo)

First one on each
Complex Cardiac Regulator 110% Stamina 110% Recovery

Ak. 0
MS 619.605
SC 110.25
TTSM 5.62
GS 13.25 m/s

Gk. 0
MS 441
SC 66.15
TTSM 6.66
GS 13.625 m/s

Stamina is consumed 10 units per second while sprinting, running does not penalize regeneration, sprinting adds 40% more speed so

Ak. 0
13.25*1.4 = 18.55 Sprint speed
18.55*(619.605/10) = 1149.37 Meters covered per sprint or 1.15 kms
5.62 Seconds to max stamina the amarrian would cover 74.4 meters
Time is now 67.6 seconds with 1223.77 meters covered
So True M/S is 18.10 m/s

Gk. 0
13.625*1.4 = 19.075 Sprint Speed
19.075*(441/10) = 841.21 meters covered
6.66 second to max stamina the gallente would cover 90.74 meters
Time is now 60.7 seconds with only 931.95
So True M/S is 15.35 m/s

Feeling Sorry for the Gallente I threw in a Kin Kat

Complex at max level = 13.2% bonus
(13.625*1.132)*1.4 = 21.5929 spring speed whoohoo
952 meters covered
6.66 covers 102.72 meters
Time is 60.7 covering only 1054.72
True M/S is 17.375 m/s

The gallente would almost have to use 3/4 lot slots just to compete against a single card reg amarrian.

Also the other big thing that is probably going to bother everyone.
There are no sensor stats on the suit sheet either so we have no idea how those stats are distributed.

And now I just got asked to do the 5k run with everyone, bleh, wait one while I spread sheet fu this.

5% to stamina and 5% to stamina regen are two boni two stats are changed, regardless if there is a module that do the same for both stats. Not the module gets a boost the two base stats are changed. And this is true for all scouts as all scouts get a change to two base stats.

That modules do different things is another story...

About the value of the base stat I would say its up more to your preferences, there is no law in dust that says satmina is less valuable than scan profile.

So if you thing a bonus to profile dampening is more suited for your playstyle maybe the gallente scout is the right one for you. If you like to be more mobile and agile than maybe the amarr scout is the right one, if you want to run as mobile scanner maybe the caldari scout is the right for you.

Note I did not mind a small buff to Amarr boni, I just think it is in linewith the other boni as all give the same percantage of bonus to same amount of stats.

Thank you very much Magnus, I was working on a post like that as well because of how wrong IWS's statements were. I appreciate his work, but he should really double check before making such big claims.

Holy cow, your wrong about nearly everything you wrote there.

Once again, you should stay out of balance discussions.

So, you realize that all skill multipliers are, as the name implies, multiplicative right? So this means we can work with base stats and come out with the same ratios. What I mean is we can leave out skills modifiers here as they just add work.

Anyway, I don't even know where to begin.

The amarrian suit is 96% as fast (walking/sprinting/whatever) as a caldar/gallente suit
The amarrian suit is 93% as fast as a minmatar suit is

The amarrian suit has (without bonuses)
12.5% more stamina and 33% more stamina recovery as a caldari/gallente suit
4% more stamina and 12.5% more stamina recovery as the minmatar suit

So, advantages here are pretty slim to none. The amarrian suit is the slowest, and over the first 30 seconds of running will lag behind all the other suits. Of course for being the slowest, it gets a small HP (like 1 AR round worth) bonus. Just like how the minmatar suit is faster, but sacrifices some HP for that speed. Standard Dust/eve fair so far right?

So, with a 5%/lvl bonus to stamina/recovery, the max bonus the amarrian suit can garner is 25% stamina/recovery. This means that the ENTIRE MAXED AMARRIAN BONUS CAN BE MITIGATED BY LESS THAN 1 MILITIA MODULE.

How f-cking hard is this to understand IWS? 1 militia module and all of the other scouts are now comparatively better the amarrian scout.

It is so freaking simple I don't know how to explain it in a simpler way. The bonuses can be directly related to module effects, and as such can be directly related with modules. This way we can count the effectiveness of the bonuses in modules. In other words, if you fit this exact number of modules on a different suit, you would arrive at the same performance level as the suit in question.

Minmatar suit bonuses = 5 modules (4 prototype and 1 basic)
Gallente suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 1 adv 1 basic)
Caldari suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 2 basic)
Amarr suit bonuses = 1 module (less than 1 militia)

Okay Aero, I did some theorycrafting at work, and some number crunching at home.

I saw in another thread that you guys wanted a reduction to Movement and Speed penalty to armor plates, but as I thought about it, that was a terrible idea. Every assault ever would take the suit and stack it to 700+ armor with no penalties. Combine with passive dampening, and the suit will be better than the assault.

How about a bonus to ferroscale plates? This gives them a decent abiltiy to armor tank without sacrificing speed.

Ferro's give 83 hp at proto. If they give the amarr 5% bonus per level they can get 101 armor out of a Complex Ferro.

They can then fit the following:

2x Complex Ferro
1x Complex Rep
1x Complex Damp

1x Complex Shield
1x Complex L Damage mod

This gives them 414 Armor and 148 shields for approximately 268 CPU and 59 PG. They also get 6hp/s armor rep and all of this at NO speed penalty. That's 562 eHP. That's a ton for a scout. AND they have a shield buffer and rep to go with it. The most combat scout of the 4.

That leaves them around 30 PG and 157 CPU to fit their weapons and equipment. Sound good?

I am open to feedback.

Okay Aero, I did some theorycrafting at work, and some number crunching at home.

I saw in another thread that you guys wanted a reduction to Movement and Speed penalty to armor plates, but as I thought about it, that was a terrible idea. Every assault ever would take the suit and stack it to 700+ armor with no penalties. Combine with passive dampening, and the suit will be better than the assault.

How about a bonus to ferroscale plates? This gives them a decent abiltiy to armor tank without sacrificing speed.

Ferro's give 83 hp at proto. If they give the amarr 5% bonus per level they can get 101 armor out of a Complex Ferro.

They can then fit the following:

2x Complex Ferro
1x Complex Rep
1x Complex Damp

1x Complex Shield
1x Complex L Damage mod

This gives them 414 Armor and 148 shields for approximately 268 CPU and 59 PG. They also get 6hp/s armor rep and all of this at NO speed penalty. That's 562 eHP. That's a ton for a scout. AND they have a shield buffer and rep to go with it. The most combat scout of the 4.

That leaves them around 30 PG and 157 CPU to fit their weapons and equipment. Sound good?

I am open to feedback.