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Amarr scout racial bonus parity problem

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Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5241	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:07:00 - [1] - Quote The Caldari Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% scan precision per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex precision enhancer (actually a little more since complex precision enhancers are 20%) The Gallente Scout racial bonus is 5% scan radius per level and 5% profile signature reduction per level At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free standard range amplifier and one free complex profile dampener. The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers And now for the fun part, The Amarr Scout racial bonus is 5% stamina recovery and max stamina per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of less than one basic cardiac regulator, and that's it. A basic cardiac regulator does 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina recovery. So all other races get a free complex module and then some, but Amarr scout gets the short end of the stick here. I think it would be more than fair to bump this bonus to 20% stamina recovery and max stamina per level, which at level 5 would be 100% bonus to each which is the equivalent of one complex cardiac regulator. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5248	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:14:00 - [2] - Quote KingBabar wrote: I approve, even With a total + 100% its still a fairly weak bonus compared to the others, though it can be great for the start of matches sending a fast runner With an uplink, so its not useless either. Yup. I know 100% bonus may sound ridiculous, but you have to keep in mind it is for stamina. There is a reason why complex cardiac regulators also have a 100% bonus to stamina. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5248	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:19:00 - [3] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: Sounds good to me When you say sounds good, do you mean the current Amarr racial bonus sounds good? Or my proposed revision sounds good? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5249	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:31:00 - [4] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Well spotted. I also have a problem with giving them stamina in the first place. There's a cut off point where any greater distance is better covered by LAV. The only exception I can think of is those times on open maps when I've laid a trail of uplinks towards an objective. And since the Amarr Scout isn't getting the Uplink bonus it should be, that point seems moot now anyway. Well since all the other scouts are getting a racial bonus equivalent of a complex module and then some, I don't see what would be wrong with giving the Amarr scout a racial bonus of 20% stamina recovery and max stamina per level (complex cardiac regulator equivalent) plus a bonus to uplinks. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5249	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:35:00 - [5] - Quote Meee One wrote: Slight problem...the 4 low slots. I'm picturing a scout with 2 complex cardiac regulators,2 complex armor plates/repair, Cloak Mmm no. +300% bonuses would be insane. Increase the bonus to a basic cardiac regulator,fine but no higher. Op is Op even in light form. You really think that would be OP? Because honestly as Chunky Munkey said there is a point where more stamina just doesn't mean anything. Also Gallente scouts also have 4 low slots, yet still get a racial bonus for a complex profile dampener (a low slot). Why is this not OP then, by your logic? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5249	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:37:00 - [6] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Meee One wrote: Slight problem...the 4 low slots. I'm picturing a scout with 2 complex cardiac regulators,2 complex armor plates/repair, Cloak Mmm no. +300% bonuses would be insane. Increase the bonus to a basic cardiac regulator,fine but no higher. Op is Op even in light form. In what situation is an abundance of stamina OP?????? When the map looks like this and the team vehicle quota has been reached, duh ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5253	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:43:00 - [7] - Quote Haerr wrote: Since on the other suits (Assault, Logi) Amarr has one less High/Low (In exchange for more base HP and more base Stamina) than the other factions we could say that since the Amarr scouts gets the extra base HP and extra base Stamina without losing a High/Low slot that the Amarr Scout has +1 High/Low slot. Check out the Amarr Commando and the Amarr Sentinel, both have the same number of slots as the other races. Previous racial themes in Dust can be discarded, they are taking a new approach to this. And actually, the Sentinel and Commando suits are even a little bit slower now than they used to be, which could of been done to compensate the extra module. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5256	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:55:00 - [8] - Quote Meee One wrote: I never said it wasn't. I was responding to the topic. Instead of saying ' it's OP'. Suggest reductions to them(instead of 5% how about 2 or 3?),and an additional bonus effect for amarr scouts.(passive armor plates bonus) I'm not a scout but i know a bad idea when i read it. Also these stats aren't finalized,so calm down. I love when people say this. What makes you think I am not calm? I am the most calm person around,bro But if I'm not allowed to give feedback because it makes me sound uncalm, then what is the point of even releasing this info before it's finalized? Just let us peacefully give our feedback And why is it a bad idea, can you explain that one too me? Because to me all it sounds like is you are freeing up one of the low slots for another module of choice. Adding a second complex cardiac regulator on top of my proposed change wouldn't make you OP, because in fact you'd hardly notice a difference, most people don't over 2 minutes straight sprinting in an FPS. Likewise with the Gallente bonus, all it means is they do not need to fit complex profile dampener because they are already below proto scans. Adding another wouldn't provide any additional benefit. So please, tell me how this is such a bad idea. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5265	Posted - 2014.01.17 12:45:00 - [9] - Quote Meee One wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: So please, tell me how this is such a bad idea. Its nice how you pick out one sentence and then make a whole paragraph about it whilst simultaneously insulting meee and ignoring the rest of my post. Scouts aren't vehicles and shouldn't be comperable to such. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." I'm trying to prevent a pandemic you are trying to start. Hyper run stats wouldn't allow for any retreat.It would ve impossible to escape. Think about the players who wouldn't have this dash ability.Typical response:"well hurr jez becum a skout urself" Aka fight tank spam with tank spam,and we all know how well that worked (it didn't) I'm not going to feed you anymore. All you're going to do is pick 1 word/sentence of all my post and ignore the rest. tl;dr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UDnTJcjPhY I made a couple remarks about your one sentence and then proceeded to address the rest of your points, what are you talking about? Also the scout with the bonuses I provided would never be able to fill the role of a vehicle because a) they aren't nearly as fast, plus this is the slow Amarr scout we're talking about and b) even if they were, you can't piggy back someone over to an objective. And this dash ability you are describing, I am a little confused. You are aware that we are talking about stamina, correct? And that that is different than speed? And that even with one complex cardiac regulator you already pretty much never have to worry about stamina? And that all I'm suggesting is make that a free bonus to the Amarr scout since other scouts are getting a free complex module and then some? Have you even used a complex cardiac regulator before?] ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5327	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:12:00 - [10] - Quote Dirks Macker wrote: The Amarr suit has more survivability when you and the enemy are shooting at one another. You get either a free basic or enhanced ferroscale plate depending on which suit you are comparing it to. You can also stack armor, decloak, and survive much longer than the Minmatar and Caldari scout. You could be close with the Gallente, but why even cloak with the signature damp? That eliminates armor tanking if you go sans cloak. If you want to go the argument that Amarr get a extra armor then I'll counter you with the fact that all the other scouts get extra speed. There is already a balance in place for this, it does not need to transcend further down to the racial bonuses. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5334	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:38:00 - [11] - Quote Kato Ymmij wrote: Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols? per level? That sounds like too much for the scrambler pistol, also I'd rather have a bonus that is less direclty offensive in nature, but that is just my opinion. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5337	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:48:00 - [12] - Quote Kato Ymmij wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Kato Ymmij wrote: Would it be better if the amarr scout keeps its current stamina bonus (increase stamina recovery to 10%), but also gets a 5% damage bonus to scrambler pistols? per level? That sounds like too much for the scrambler pistol, also I'd rather have a bonus that is less direclty offensive in nature, but that is just my opinion. 2-3% per level, to keep the amarr scout bonus in line with the other scout bonuses (1 basic mod/1complex mod). I think it would be awesome to see some dual pistol scouts causing mayhem on the field. Well if we are actually going to make sense and make the Amarr scout bonuses like every other race with one basic module and one complex, I would agree that the stamina should be the standard module. Also then this would also mirror the Minmatar scout (weapon damage) much like the Gallente and Caldari mirror each other (dampening vs precision). I'll add this to the OP ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5343	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:05:00 - [13] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Also please drop this Minmatar complex damage bonus argument - its tied to one weapon. If that was the only sidearm in the game then you might have a point. - For knifers its great for the rest, not so much. But nonetheless if you equip the knives than that is exactly what you are getting. I'm not saying it is too much or not though. Would would you say if Amarr scout also got a scrambler pistol bonus? 2-3% damage per level, in addition to it's current bonus? That would make it like the Minmatar bonus with a damage mod to a specific sidearm. I'm still not convinced on this thought, but it is quite interesting and I'd love to hear more opinions. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5344	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:16:00 - [14] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: As for amarr disparity it is a decent point to bring up, it may be grounds for a percent more or so, also there is no stacking penalty against this bonus, so the first module adds an unadulterated bonus. Where as the gallente trying to match would lose out on total effectiveness. There is also no stacking penalty applied to the Gallente's profile dampening and scan radius bonus, no stacking penalty applied to the Caldari's scan precision and scan radius bonus, no stacking penalty applied to the Minmatar's hacking and NK bonus. So how does that change the fact that the Amarr scout racial bonus is no where near the same value as the other scouts? A few people have been saying "Well typically Amarr have one less slot than the other suits because higher base HP" as a means to justify this weak bonus. But that is based on old Dust racial combat philosophies. Look at the Commando and Sentinels, the Amarr variants have the same number of slots as well as a racial bonus that is on par with the rest. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5346	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:30:00 - [15] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Why do the Caldari and Gallente have the same racial bonuses? All scouts should get the scan dampners bonus and then Gallente scan radius, Caldari get precision, Minmatar melee and Knives, and Amarr get stamina (10% increase per level instead of 5% might be cool). They're similar, but not the same. They both get a small scan radius buff and then a large buff to either scan precision or profile dampening. This is why it would perhaps make sense if you also add symmetry between the Amarr and Minmatar scout. Perhaps both could get a hacking bonus, and then a damage bonus to a specific weapon? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5349	Posted - 2014.01.17 22:51:00 - [16] - Quote Saying that the Minmatar bonus doesn't count as multiple complex modules since it only affects one weapon is crazy. The name of the game is mimicry. If any of the other scouts want to mimic an Amarr scout, all they have to do is fit a standard cardiac regulator (and actually be superior with double the increase on stamina recovery). If any of the other scouts want to mimic a Gallente scout, they'd have to fit a standard range amplifier and a complex profile dampener. If any of the other scouts want to mimic a Caldari scout, they'd have to fit a standard range amplifier, a complex precision enhancer, and a standard precision enhancer. If any of the other scouts want to mimic a Minmatar scout, they'd have to fit a complex codebreaker, a nova knife, and three complex sidearm damage modifiers. And actually, since it looks like complex damage modifiers aren't going to be 10% anymore, they'd have to fit even more. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5360	Posted - 2014.01.18 00:45:00 - [17] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: I dont think the name of the game is mimicry - it is maximising your playstyle. Besides, previously there were threads about if you wanted to be a knifer it was muc better to go gallente because you had more low slots and could get a better bonuses to see and not be seen and the 25% didnt end up being that much in action. I support your argument though. I also dont like the bonus because your suit already has more stamina and higher regen and 4 low slots . Being slightly slower with the most HP, I see all of that being very advantageous. I never said that Dust was about mimicry, what I said is if you are trying to balance the bonuses then you compare their value by mimicry. But yes, it turns out that the Amarr racial bonus is poorly undervalued compared to the rest. I'm attributing this to a rush to change the skill since everyone bitched about cloak specific skills, and they decided +5% per level would be good since that's what most skills are, but forgot that there is a reason why stamina modules have such high bonuses. Stamina is simply not as important of a stat. I'm not saying it is not important at all, but if you are going to give a bonus to it then it must be much greater than 5% per level. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5388	Posted - 2014.01.19 01:42:00 - [18] - Quote Amarr Bonus: 25% more stamina and 25% more stamina regen Standard Cardiac Regulator: 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina regen Gallente Bonus: 25% profile dampening (and 25% scan range) Complex Profile dampener: 25% profile dampening Caldari Bonus: 25% scan precision (and 25% scan range) Complex Precision Enhancer: 20% precision Minmatar Bonus: 25% hacking speed (and 25% NK damage) Complex Codebreaker: 25% hacking speed As you can see, every other race is getting a primary bonus that is the same or better than a complex module, and then a secondary bonus as well. Meanwhile, the Amarr only get a bonus that is not even as good as a standard module. Do you honestly think that is right? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5392	Posted - 2014.01.19 05:25:00 - [19] - Quote Copying over from the Scout Registry, Aero Yassavi wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: What I hate most about this is it may appear like I am only advocating so strongly for a better Amarr racial bonus because I favor the Amarr, but that is not the case at all. This bonus is simply not on par with the rest, and I'd be doing the same thing regardless of which race was getting gimped. Aero, I can see where you are coming from here, and honestly i do not think that you are pushing this as favouring the Amarr. Please understand that I am not arguing against you, and I hope you understand that I am not against balancing the Amarr scout. The thing is having the ability to but two complex Card Regs on a suit without a stacking penalty will not be good for balance. As I have said before it needs something else, what that is I don't know, but most of the suggestions I have seen are not likely to be balanced either. The confrontational attitude that many (not saying you, but you have verged on it before) take is not one that will produce good dialogue on the subject so I avoid it. Also don't imply that I am slow and need things put simply for me, this is very much not the case. I apologize if my teasing caused offence, honestly I don't think of your posts as whining Aero (and actually was not even thinking of you in that way at all). You are actually someone that I have respect for, and I actually enjoy reading what you have to say. I get what you're saying, but your argument is flawed. The Gallente can put on essentially two complex profile dampeners without stacking penalty, the Caldari can put on essentially two complex precision enhancers without stacking penalty, and the Minmatar can put on essentially two complex codebreakers without stacking penalty. So why is it only bad for Amarr? I'm not saying the bonus definitely has to be 20% stamina per level, but if it were it wouldn't be OP. The Amarr would inherently be able to sprint for 55 seconds, which is about how long anyone would be able to sprint with a complex cardiac regulator. And really if you used a complex cardiac regulator on a scout before, you'd know that there's really no point in going any higher. So say an Amarr scout gets this and does slap on a complex cardiac regulator in addition? So he can sprint for now 1 minute 50 seconds. This is opposed to a regular Amarr light frame who slaps on two complex regulators, gets the stacking penalty, and can run for 1 minute 42 seconds. That's what doesn't register with me, all the people fussing that giving the Amarr a free complex regulator are essentially fussing because they'd be able to sprint a whole 8 seconds longer. And really, how many times do you want to hold a sprint for over one minute anyways? So to sum up, Saying no stacking penalties apply is moot because the same can be said for the other races All no stacking penalty does is let an Amarr scout sprint for 1 minute 50 seconds instead of 1 minute 42 seconds. No one really sprints for longer than a minute anyways And I am not saying this needs to be the Amarr scout bonus, I am just saying there is nothing wrong with it either. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5395	Posted - 2014.01.19 07:26:00 - [20] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: you guys know the suit is bonused with stamina to begin with, right? 25% of the bonused base in actual numbers is actually pretty decent. You know that's an inherent Amarr trait that has been around since the beginning in Dust, right? And if you're going to start throwing out inherent abilities, you know Gallente has an inherent 3 hp/s armor repair rate? You can't be comparing the base stats with the quality of the bonus, they are completely separate. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5404	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:45:00 - [21] - Quote Morathi III wrote: True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. True but like you say you dont have th+¬ disadvantage of th+¬ slot less, i think too th+¬ suit lack +á bonus, my personnal feeling tend to go to get +á bonus with th+¬ uplink in my mind since its amarrian But no other race gets the disadvantage of a loss of slot either. In fact, it seems CCP realized that the Amarr loss of a slot disadvantage was a bit ridiculous. Look at the new Amarr Sentinel and Amarr Commando stats, they have the same amount of slots as all the other races and also get more HP, more stamina, and an equal value racial bonus. All of this seemingly balanced by two factors: 1) Slow movement speed 2) The Amarr are an armor race, but actually get a considerable less amount of PG than the other armor race (Gallente). Try building some fits using these new stats, you are scraping for every last bit of PG even with skills as the way up. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5406	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:01:00 - [22] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? Why do you say the Amarr sentinels will be the best sentinels? What evidence do you have to that? I pointed out a few positives to it, but also some pretty big negatives. Honestly the Gallente sentinel is looking the best to me but hard to tell, they all look pretty good. So why does your theory-crafting on Amarr sentinels mean Amarr scouts should get gimped? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5410	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:50:00 - [23] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: You Sir seem to be forgetting how good sprint speed is when you have no stamina to sprint with; do tell? By the way True Adamance you need to clean you're nose you seem to have some kind of fecal matter on it. You sir seem to be forgetting that the Minmatar (and every other suit) don't just get more sprint speed than the Amarr, but also more movement speed. Movement speed, a stat that has no skills or modules to increase it's value. Movement speed that you can actually take advantage of while firing a weapon. The Amarr are stuck eternally at a slower movement speed and thus can't strafe as well. It's not all about sprinting. And yeah the stamina is nice, but the current values for the bonus are too low. Other suits get the equivalent of a complex mod and then some. Amarr get the equivalent of a standard mod. You think that's right? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5425	Posted - 2014.01.19 15:17:00 - [24] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I'll just leave this here from page 2, it seems to have been overlooked by Mr. Gear. John Demonsbane wrote: Seriously though, why are you comparing base stats to bonuses? Those are different discussions. The fact that they are slower compensates for the higher eHP. This is true for every Amarr suit of every class. P.s. The brown nose comment is just sad. This is what I'm not understanding from everyone else. There are a ton of base stat differences between all the four suits that balance out with each other. If you think something is off, then make a point about it. However, base stats are completely separate from racial bonuses and are balanced separately. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5520	Posted - 2014.01.20 05:04:00 - [25] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: an uplink bonus would be bad, who always spawns with uplinks? I do. Every spawn. If you keep your uplinks in the same place for too long you become too predictable, so I try to mix up the spawning locations as much as possible. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5547	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:32:00 - [26] - Quote Here is what I don't understand about all the people who say the Amarr scout shouldn't get a bonus equivalent to a complex module like every other scout because they already have more base stamina: Say for a second they didn't. Say the Amarr Scout only had 200 stamina like the Caldari and Gallente scout. Then would you be ok with the bonus being equivalent to a complex module like every other scout? Because if so, then the stamina goes up to 400. So how is 281.25 stamina (225 * 1.25) a good fair bonus? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5547	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:44:00 - [27] - Quote Have you even looked at CPU/PG for this or are you just assuming because you have slots you can fit whatever you want? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5548	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:50:00 - [28] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers not entirely correct. first, this is a damage bonus on the suit with the least amoutns of HP for a weapon that requires being in your face to work. and second, this bonus is NOT equal to several multiple sidearm damage mods, sidearm damage mods give a bonus to all sidearm weapons... Whatever your stance on that is, you can't deny the fact that there is still a complex codebreaker plus a secondary bonus, just like every other race except the Amarr who only get a bonus equivalent to a standard module (and actually not even as good because stamina recovery). Also there are several factors that make each race's suit unique. The various base factors all balance out within themselves. So that's where the argument for base stats stop. You can't say "Let's give this suit a better bonus because it has worse base stats" or "Let's give this suit a worse bonus because it has better base stats." If the base stats don't look balanced across all races, then tweak the base stats. Similarly, if the bonuses aren't balanced across all races, then tweak the bonuses. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5548	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:54:00 - [29] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Have you even looked at CPU/PG for this or are you just assuming because you have slots you can fit whatever you want? After skills, the ak.0 has 446 CPU and 92 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 cpu and 76 PG used 220 shield, 779 armor, 2 weapon slots and an equip slot free, with 181 CPU and 16 PG free to fit them You should know me enough by now Aero that i don't comment on things that i can't back up :P So what about the total HP if you do the same for the other suits? And what do you think the Amarr bonus should be? Do you think it is right that all other scouts get a bonus equivalent to a complex module plus a secondary bonus while Amarr only gets something not even as good as a standard module? If you think giving them a complex cardiac regulator free would be unfair, than what other complex mod do you think would be a better replacement? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5549	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:11:00 - [30] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Have you even looked at CPU/PG for this or are you just assuming because you have slots you can fit whatever you want? After skills, the ak.0 has 446 CPU and 92 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 cpu and 76 PG used 220 shield, 779 armor, 2 weapon slots, a grenade slot and an equip slot free, with 181 CPU and 16 PG free to fit them You should know me enough by now Aero that i don't comment on things that i can't back up :P So I took the liberty to do the same thing with the gk.0. After skills it has 433 CPU and 97 PG 3 complex plates, 1 advanced plate, 2 complex shield extenders: 218 CPU and 64 PG used adding a K17/D (R) hive: 265 CPU and 76 PG used 233 shield, 729 armor, 2 weapon slots, a grenade slot, and an equip slot free with 168 CPU and 21 PG free to fit them That is 37 less EHP, 13 less CPU, 5 more PG, and faster than the Amarr scout. So yeah, tell me how this argument of Amarr being so combat ready that it doesn't deserve a bonus equivalent to a complex mod, yet the Gal scout is arguably more combat ready and can get a bonus equivalent to a complex mod plus a secondary bonus. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5549	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:18:00 - [31] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: You can't say "Let's give this suit a better bonus because it has worse base stats" or "Let's give this suit a worse bonus because it has better base stats." sure, the amarr bonus could use a bit of tweaking but your assumption is wrong. actually you can and this is how balancing works. I also think the amarr bonus, while maybe a bit too low, is underrated by many. the amarr scout is obviously more geared towards combat with the HP it has and with the stamina bonus it can move around the map over long distances faster than other suits despite having the lowest sprint speed of all scouts and due to this provide flanking and firepower where it is needed. Really? Because go look at the Amarr Commando bonus compared to every other racial bonus. Go look at the Amarr Sentinel bonus compared to every other racial bonus. Go look at the Amarr logistics bonus compared to every other racial bonus. Guess what? They are all exactly on par with all the other racial bonuses, despite the base stat differences, which if you go up a couple posts you'd see are actually not all that much better if at all. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5550	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:19:00 - [32] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5550	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:23:00 - [33] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match Who says the Minmatar Scout should be the long runner? I think Minnie Scout is more meant for short runs. Plus I think Gallente is already better for long runs over Minnie due to more low slots. One of the important things you have to remember with the Minnie is movement speed. Movement speed is the one stat on dropsuits you can never increase, and directly impacts how good you are at strafing and such. Especially for a scout, this is probably one of the most important stats out there, and there is nothing the Amarr scout or any other scout could do to get to that same level of movement speed. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5550	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:27:00 - [34] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. The amarr scout already has nearly 50% more stamina and nearly double the stamina regen, While the gallente is getting a nice profile sig reduction, scanners are also getting buffed by way of the new gal logi bonuses and has a counter, stamina and its regen does not have a counter Get your facts straight. The Amarr scout has 225 stamina compared to the Gallente and Caldari's 200 and Minmatar's 210. If you are saying with bonuses, then again everyone else is already getting far better bonuses the equivalent of a complex mod plus a secondary bonus. And while there may be one suit that will have better active scanners, and you can't really expect all scanners to be on just that one suit, you fail to realize that there is a counter to stamina, it is called speed. All other suits are quite faster than the Amarr scout. Heck, the Minmatar Assault suit is faster than the Amarr scout suit. While stamina is nice, it is countered by other scouts being faster which is arguably the more important of the two. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5553	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:30:00 - [35] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: again, I am not against changing the current bonus to amarr scouts as i stated in a previous post, i am merely against raising the bonus to that of a complex stamina mod Then how about you put a little more effort into proposing a solution then? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5554	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:43:00 - [36] - Quote Tech De Ra, my apologies for missing this bit as this thread has been moving quickly Tech De Ra wrote: Personally I would scrap the stamina bonus and grant a clipsize increase on the scrambler pistols, basically moving the old clipsize bonus from the minny assault, put it on the amarr scout Here's the problem with this 1) Clipsize increase is already the Scrambler Pistol Operations skill, so this becomes redundant 2) Every other scout gets a primary racial bonus equivalent to a complex mod plus a secondary bonus as well ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5556	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:56:00 - [37] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra, my apologies for missing this bit as this thread has been moving quickly Tech De Ra wrote: Personally I would scrap the stamina bonus and grant a clipsize increase on the scrambler pistols, basically moving the old clipsize bonus from the minny assault, put it on the amarr scout Here's the problem with this 1) Clipsize increase is already the Scrambler Pistol Operations skill, so this becomes redundant 2) Every other scout gets a primary racial bonus equivalent to a complex mod plus a secondary bonus as well I wouldn't say its redundant, giving it more ammo on top of its operation skill would provide a unique, lore freindly, bonus that would define the amarr scout I understand your reasonings behind the bonuses, the theory is sound. But looking at the numbers (minny gets +37.5% hacking speed and 25% NK damage), caldari gets 25% precision, gal gets 25% damping, amarr gets about 45% more stamina and nearly 100% more regen over other scouts Numbers wise, its pretty much all in line, The main problem is that some scouts get 2 bonuses to the amarr's one bonus, perhaps giving it another bonus on the side of its stamina bonus would be in order Wait, so what is it, clipsize or ammo capacity? The ops skill is already a bonus to clip size, another bonus is indeed absolutely redundant. Also, please forgive me if this sounds condescending because it is not my intention, but are you perhaps only worried about making the Amarr racial bonus equivalent to the complex cardiac regulator because it would have to be 20% per level and you are used to seeing racial bonuses that are only 5% per level? Quite frankly, there is a reason why the complex cardiac regulator has a bonus of 100% instead of just 25% like nearly every other complex mod. If you compare stamina with any other stat one-on-one, stamina is not as valuable linearly speaking. That is why the complex caridac regulator is 100% increase. So yes, while it may look like 100% increase in stamina isn't roughly the same value as 37.5% hacking speed, 25% precision, or 25% dampening, I assure you it indeed is. If you do not believe this to be the case, then you should probably go campaigning to get the value of the complex cardiac regulator reduced. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5563	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:17:00 - [38] - Quote Who said Amarr are supposed to have the least mobility? They are supposed to have the least speed, and they do. And even though it is Amarr, it is still a scout and needs to be treated like a scout. That's why I'd really rather not have the bonus be towards scrambler pistols, that is too combat oriented for what is a suit designed around avoiding scanners, scanning enemies, cloaking, and being mobile. I'm not dead set that the Amarr bonus needs to be towards stamina, but unless you want to have some overlap with other racial skills than there is not much else it could be. Again, the suit is a scout, so it needs a scout related bonus. This includes a bonus to the following: Stamina (biotics) Speed (biotics) Hand-to-hand combat (biotics) Scan radius (electronics) Scan precision (electronics) Profile dampening (electronics) Cloaking The bonuses for the other races all fall into one of these scouting categories, and so should the Amarr's. So what should it be if not the proper complex mod version of a cardiac regulator? And keep in mind, even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. While yes it could use a low slot to make it faster than the Minmatar, the Minmatar could use a low slot to make itself even faster as well. And even then, the Minmatar scout will always have a faster movement speed, a stat that cannot be increased with any skills or mods. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5563	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:36:00 - [39] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Giving the amarr scout even more stamina via the bonus would allow it to sprint much, MUCH further than other races using the same suit class, at the cost of having slightly lower speed but still a speed comparable with assault suits Speaking to this specifically, a 20% stamina per level bonus would put the Amarr Scout at 450 stamina, so able to sprint for 45 seconds. If a Gallente scout placed on a complex cardiac regulator, he'd have 400 stamina, and it'd be fair that the Gallente scout needs to add the module because the Amarr scout would need to add a complex profile dampener to match the Gallente's profile signature. For similar reasons, the Caldari scout would also be able to get 400 stamina and the Minmatar scout would get 420 stamina. So really, all this would do is increase the disparity between the Amarr's natural stamina bonus from 2.5 seconds to 5 seconds, that is an additional 2.5 seconds of sprint. Or in the case of comparing to the Minmatar scout, from 1.5 seconds to 3 seconds, that is an additional 1.5 seconds of sprint. As you can see, your notion that the Amarr scout would be able to sprint "much, MUCH further" is out of line. In fact, since the other scouts are actually faster they will probably go further than the Amarr scout, but I'd need to break out some basic algebra to check that. And I wouldn't mind a cloaking bonus returning for the Amarr scout as an alternative. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5563	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:43:00 - [40] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Although I agree that the amarr bonus seems slightly underwhelming its not a bad bonus at all. And stamina is just for running its justed for jumping as well. I can't count the times I died in my scout suit just because my stamina runs out in the wrong moment... I am not saying that a bonus to stamina would be bad, all I'm saying is that in order to make it a bonus on par with the rest you'd need to increase how much per level it is. See the post directly above yours to see what I mean. Also jumping doesn't take away a set amount of stamina, rather a percentage of your total stamina. So no matter how much stamina you have, the number of times you can jump in succession is the same. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5563	Posted - 2014.01.20 11:53:00 - [41] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: I have no problem with making the Amarr Scout bonus 20% more stamina per level and 5% (or 10%, I don't know?) more stamina regen per level. That would make the Amarr Scout a long runner (but still slow at that), while Minnie would still be best for the short runs. The complex cardiac regulator is 100% more stamina and stamina regen ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5566	Posted - 2014.01.20 12:00:00 - [42] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: I have no problem with making the Amarr Scout bonus 20% more stamina per level and 5% (or 10%, I don't know?) more stamina regen per level. That would make the Amarr Scout a long runner (but still slow at that), while Minnie would still be best for the short runs. The complex cardiac regulator is 100% more stamina and stamina regen It's also 100% more regen? I couldn't remember, so that's why I wasn't sure what the bonus should be. In that case I think it should be 10% more regen per level. The bonus wouldn't quite be a free complex module, but it would be fairly close. However, the Gallente Scout has exactly 1 free complex profile dampener and a scan radius increase, Caldari Scout has more than 1 free complex precision enhancers (complex precision enhancer is only 20%) and a scan radius increase, and Minmatar scout has exactly 1 free cardiac regulator and a NK damage bonus. So even with you agreeing that the Amarr racial bonus should be increased, why should it only be increased to almost a complex module and that's it? When everyone else is either a full complex module or more plus a secondary bonus? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5594	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:26:00 - [43] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. it is the slowest when you take the sprint distance of the other suits as base. it is the fastest over long sprints though. it can also bunny hop alot more in combat than any other suit. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Caldari or Gallente suit, they can sprint for 42 seconds. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Minmatar suit, they can sprint for 44.1 seconds. This isn't really far off from 45 seconds. When you consider that these suits are faster, they would also travel more distance in this shorter time. And yes, it is fair that these suits would have to use a slot to achieve similar stamina performance, because an Amarr would also have to use a slot if it wanted to achieve similar profile dampening, scan precision, or hacking speed. Also stamina does not affect bunny hopping, because jumping uses a percent of your stamina, not a set amount. No matter how much stamina you have you cannot increase how many times you can jump in quick succession. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5596	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:32:00 - [44] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: even then with the Amarr scout able to sprint for 45 seconds, it is still the slowest. it is the slowest when you take the sprint distance of the other suits as base. it is the fastest over long sprints though. it can also bunny hop alot more in combat than any other suit. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Caldari or Gallente suit, they can sprint for 42 seconds. When you add a complex cardiac regulator to a Minmatar suit, they can sprint for 44.1 seconds. This isn't really far off from 45 seconds. When you consider that these suits are faster, they would also travel more distance in this shorter time. And yes, it is fair that these suits would have to use a slot to achieve similar stamina performance, because an Amarr would also have to use a slot if it wanted to achieve similar profile dampening, scan precision, or hacking speed. Also stamina does not affect bunny hopping, because jumping uses a percent of your stamina, not a set amount. No matter how much stamina you have you cannot increase how many times you can jump in quick succession. The thing is with faster stamina regeneration you CAN bunny hop more than other suits as your stamina will be faster at that point where you can hop again... Well again, stamina regeneration would be comparable as soon as they add a complex cardiac regulator as mentioned above. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5596	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:43:00 - [45] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Regarding the Amarr bonus after thinking a bit longer I think its fine. Every secondary scout bonus alters one dropsuit base stat by 5 %. The same is true for the amarr scout. He gets +5% to stamina and + 5% to stamina regen, so it is perfectly in line with the other suits boni. The problem is the cardiac regulator that gives an incredible high bonus. This module is way more powerfull than any other percentage based module in the game. None of these grant a 100% bonus to any base stat not to speak from granting two 100% boni, this is kinda strange. It's not perfectly in line at all. First of all, all stats are not linearly valuable. Getting 5% more stamina isn't the same thing as 5% reduced profile signature, for example. That is why a complex cardiac regulator increases stamina and stamina regen by 100% while a complex profile dampener reduces your signature by only 25%. Also while stamina and stamina regen are two separate stats, they are achieved in the same module so it's still just one bonus, not a bonus and a secondary bonus. Profile dampening and scan radius aren't the same module, Scan precision and scan radius aren't the same module, hacking speed and NK damage aren't the same module. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5599	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:18:00 - [46] - Quote Thank you very much Magnus, I was working on a post like that as well because of how wrong IWS's statements were. I appreciate his work, but he should really double check before making such big claims. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5610	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:39:00 - [47] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Okay Aero, I did some theorycrafting at work, and some number crunching at home. I saw in another thread that you guys wanted a reduction to Movement and Speed penalty to armor plates, but as I thought about it, that was a terrible idea. Every assault ever would take the suit and stack it to 700+ armor with no penalties. Combine with passive dampening, and the suit will be better than the assault. How about a bonus to ferroscale plates? This gives them a decent abiltiy to armor tank without sacrificing speed. Ferro's give 83 hp at proto. If they give the amarr 5% bonus per level they can get 101 armor out of a Complex Ferro. They can then fit the following: 2x Complex Ferro 1x Complex Rep 1x Complex Damp 1x Complex Shield 1x Complex L Damage mod This gives them 414 Armor and 148 shields for approximately 268 CPU and 59 PG. They also get 6hp/s armor rep and all of this at NO speed penalty. That's 562 eHP. That's a ton for a scout. AND they have a shield buffer and rep to go with it. The most combat scout of the 4. That leaves them around 30 PG and 157 CPU to fit their weapons and equipment. Sound good? I am open to feedback. I'd be down for a bonus to ferroscale plates. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

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