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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1219
   |
Posted - 2013.11.22 03:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
Shields as Weapons
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
1146
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Posted - 2013.11.22 03:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
everyone would choose a respec over goodies
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
986
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Posted - 2013.11.22 03:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
Alex was not rewarded; Alex was simply not punished for investing SP into his only viable option to avoid getting stomped on for months, testing items out that don't have militia versions, or using his SP in some other non-stupid way. For instance, will Heavies get a respec when they get their racial variants? I refuse to spec into Amarr Sentinel's myself, but many players have. Who wants to get stomped on waiting for variants? So, they go for the only available choice. Then they need to grind back up millions of SP for what they really wanted, and their previous investment is rendered useless.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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True Adamance
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
4222
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 03:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
I still don't see how this negatively impacts people who have their mode of gameplay down pat, they get to keep on doing what they do.
Those who either didn't know any better, or were so bored out of their skull waiting for content that should have been in the game at release get what they want.
I have HTFU about this but I'm still always saddened the Amarr HAV wasn't put in the game sooner. I have skills all over the place which should have been put into my beloved tanks....now however I am being shunned because they couldn't get their content together to make a full release.
SO here in this argument it always comes down to one side being given the cold shoulder or the other. I have put a year into this game same as most, but still haven't gotten what I wanted/ needed out of it. That's not my fault that's down to the devs. And I'll wait for the content, admittedly I am a little raw of recent weeks, but I will wait same as the rest of you for what I want.
Presently its a P2P market I desire so I can get into indy work.
"All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
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Vicious Minotaur
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
365
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 03:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
You don't know Jack.
He planned, tested, and found a playstyle that fit him. He played it, and enjoyed it. Then CCP came in, and ruined an entire playstyle. Jack's playstyle. Now he wants a respec.
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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
7873
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 03:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
This is why we can't have nice things
Read / Vid / Stream
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medomai grey
WarRavens
League of Infamy
370
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Actually, the concern is that people will use SP respecs to chase the flavor of the month. If optional SP respecs came with a disincentive like losing 1/5 of your life time SP to discourage FotM chasers, "Bob"s wouldn't be so against respecs.
Vehicles are having their skill tree redone, so they deserve their refund of SP invested into the current vehicle skill tree.
Blatant Dust_514 recruiting in the silliest of places. :P
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
989
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Posted - 2013.11.22 04:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Actually, the concern is that people will use SP respecs to chase the flavor of the month. If optional SP respecs came with a disincentive like losing 1/5 of your life time SP to discourage FotM chasers, "Bob"s wouldn't be so against respecs.
Vehicles are having their skill tree redone, so they deserve their refund of SP invested into the current vehicle skill tree.
Currently, the game is AR 514 and Imperial/Carthum 514. I'd rather be able to spec into something I enjoy and have others chase the FotM than be stuck grinding SP for months, not enjoying the game.
Vicious Minotaur wrote:You don't know Jack.
He planned, tested, and found a playstyle that fit him. He played it, and enjoyed it. Then CCP came in, and ruined an entire playstyle. Jack's playstyle. Now he wants a respec.
Next CCP will give Logistics players dual sidearms and won't respec anyone's SP, because having hundreds of Logistics running around like cowboys with pistols is obviously better than having them chasing the ice cream flavor of the hour.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Meeko Fent
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
1649
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
You all say it as if it takes months and months of game play to get a fit to standard.
Really, I can get a New Infantry Alt up to snuff with like .5 mil.
Armor tanking is extremely potent at lower levels compared to shield tanking at the same level.
A standard Gal Suit with standard plates and reactives with standard AR, SMG, and nade, and a militia damage modifier.
597 EHP.
You don't need a ton of SP to get a good fit.
For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Replication Warrior
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1219
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Actually, the concern is that people will use SP respecs to chase the flavor of the month. If optional SP respecs came with a disincentive like losing 1/5 of your life time SP to discourage FotM chasers, "Bob"s wouldn't be so against respecs.
Vehicles are having their skill tree redone, so they deserve their refund of SP invested into the current vehicle skill tree.
I'm talking about full respecs. Partials have no weight in this conversation, getting your points back when your choice is no longer the same as it was should be a matter of course.
To put it the way the guy above did, Jack's deserve to get their partials because of reasons beyond their control, but not the full ones Alex's are so hungry for.
Shields as Weapons
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|
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:I still don't see how this negatively impacts people who have their mode of gameplay down pat, they get to keep on doing what they do.
Those who either didn't know any better, or were so bored out of their skull waiting for content that should have been in the game at release get what they want.
I have HTFU about this but I'm still always saddened the Amarr HAV wasn't put in the game sooner. I have skills all over the place which should have been put into my beloved tanks....now however I am being shunned because they couldn't get their content together to make a full release.
SO here in this argument it always comes down to one side being given the cold shoulder or the other. I have put a year into this game same as most, but still haven't gotten what I wanted/ needed out of it. That's not my fault that's down to the devs. And I'll wait for the content, admittedly I am a little raw of recent weeks, but I will wait same as the rest of you for what I want.
Presently its a P2P market I desire so I can get into indy work.
It's not that it negatively impacts them, it's that it doesn't reward them. They don't get anything out of the respec, which to the Alex's of the game would be a major event. Think of it like CCP completely reworking all the Caldari HAVs out of the blue, making them better in every way, while the Gallente ones aren't hurt, but they didn't get anything either. The Gally HAVers would be pissed, and rightfully so.
As for the racial variants thing, they should have had that done before beta officially ended. If nothing else they should have put in the placeholder models and statted them the way they want to. Now we have to wait for them, and beta test them during 'full release.' If I hadn't have given up on Heavy after Chromosome, I'd be irritated about the lack of Minny Hoovs
Shields as Weapons
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ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
177
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
So basically, BOB wants to keep his advantage over Alex.
We already knew this bro. bob is scared of Alex.
PLUS its not all ALEX fault! There are no MLT variants of MANY stuff so he HAD to spend SP to test it.
Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. Alex was not rewarded; Alex was simply not punished for investing SP into his only viable option to avoid getting stomped on for months, testing items out that don't have militia versions, or using his SP in some other non-stupid way. For instance, will Heavies get a respec when they get their racial variants? I refuse to spec into Amarr Sentinel's myself, but many players have. Who wants to get stomped on waiting for variants? So, they go for the only available choice. Then they need to grind back up millions of SP for what they really wanted, and their previous investment is rendered useless.
The heavy thing is a case for a partial respec, as valid as the current vehicle one. This thread is not about patials, and does not cover them. Only the war between 'We need respec' guys and 'No more respec' guys.
In THAT light, I will go on to say that Alex not getting punished is equivalent to Bob not getting rewarded. What's the point of doing well if you get nothing for it? What's the point of doing badly if you aren't punished? People won't learn this way, they'll just keep making horrible SP investments, counting on 'just one more respec' to get them an out-of-jail-free-card.
Shields as Weapons
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CharCharOdell
1632
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Actually, the concern is that people will use SP respecs to chase the flavor of the month. If optional SP respecs came with a disincentive like losing 1/5 of your life time SP to discourage FotM chasers, "Bob"s wouldn't be so against respecs.
Vehicles are having their skill tree redone, so they deserve their refund of SP invested into the current vehicle skill tree.
But I'm willing to bed all but 50 of those people will spec out of vehicles and into infantry.
What if infantry players see that vehicles are good and want to spec into vehicles?
it is only fair to give everyone a chance to switch around.
The whole 'chasing fotm' argument is stupid because in one month, everyone will already spec the current fotm anyway,so a respec only brings it closer, rather than stops it.
Veteran players also won't benefit as much as new players. Most vets have between 20 mil (low) to 40 mil (high) and with a respec, probably wouldn't change much. Maybe they'd streamline a bit, ya know, ignore a few types of equipment and maybe spec out of the flaylock and swarm launchers, but that'd be it. The vets knew where to spend their SP from the get-go and new players did not.
On the other hand, a newberry with 3 million SP all over the place would benefit a lot more from a RESPEC, as he would move around 100% of his SP to streamline and become effective, increasing his enjoyment of the game; a veteran might move around 20% of his SP.
Personally, I have 25% of my SP in tanks and 75% in infantry (equipment, callogi, MD). I would like to have the option to streamline one way or the other.
Truth is, most people who originally wanted to spec vehicles have put more SP into infantry because infantry is more profitable, but now we may want to try out vehicles again, and use them to their full effectiveness, just like someone else may want to put all their SP into one weapon and one suit.
Nobody gets punished by a respec, only some are rewarded more than others. Newbs will stay at a disadvtange to vets, but it'll be less so, which is something we all need to keep this game alive.
Iam pro-respec!
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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True Adamance
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
4223
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:True Adamance wrote:I still don't see how this negatively impacts people who have their mode of gameplay down pat, they get to keep on doing what they do.
Those who either didn't know any better, or were so bored out of their skull waiting for content that should have been in the game at release get what they want.
I have HTFU about this but I'm still always saddened the Amarr HAV wasn't put in the game sooner. I have skills all over the place which should have been put into my beloved tanks....now however I am being shunned because they couldn't get their content together to make a full release.
SO here in this argument it always comes down to one side being given the cold shoulder or the other. I have put a year into this game same as most, but still haven't gotten what I wanted/ needed out of it. That's not my fault that's down to the devs. And I'll wait for the content, admittedly I am a little raw of recent weeks, but I will wait same as the rest of you for what I want.
Presently its a P2P market I desire so I can get into indy work. It's not that it negatively impacts them, it's that it doesn't reward them. They don't get anything out of the respec, which to the Alex's of the game would be a major event. Think of it like CCP completely reworking all the Caldari HAVs out of the blue, making them better in every way, while the Gallente ones aren't hurt, but they didn't get anything either. The Gally HAVers would be pissed, and rightfully so. As for the racial variants thing, they should have had that done before beta officially ended. If nothing else they should have put in the placeholder models and statted them the way they want to. Now we have to wait for them, and beta test them during 'full release.' If I hadn't have given up on Heavy after Chromosome, I'd be irritated about the lack of Minny Hoovs ]]
Yeah they really should have. Because of that I am likely to be stuck with the bullshit Gallentean crap I was forced to invest in and as a direct result ruining my enjoyment of a game I was so looking forwards to.
"All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So basically, BOB wants to keep his advantage over Alex. We already knew this bro. bob is scared of Alex. PLUS its not all ALEX fault! There are no MLT variants of MANY stuff so he HAD to spend SP to test it. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
Your rebuttal is stupid and you should feel stupid.
I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely.
What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's.
Shields as Weapons
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Oswald Rehnquist
647
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
It is interesting to see personalities differ in how they handle themselves in a resource intensive game.
I'm that conservative player myself. I haven't even placed a single skill point into a suit yet as I am still waiting to analyze things first, I have only skilled into a limited set of weapons, and I have over 25% of all my sp still waiting to be allocated somewhere.
3 mill / 11.5 mill = 26%
Below 28 dB
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 04:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:medomai grey wrote:Actually, the concern is that people will use SP respecs to chase the flavor of the month. If optional SP respecs came with a disincentive like losing 1/5 of your life time SP to discourage FotM chasers, "Bob"s wouldn't be so against respecs.
Vehicles are having their skill tree redone, so they deserve their refund of SP invested into the current vehicle skill tree. But I'm willing to bed all but 50 of those people will spec out of vehicles and into infantry. What if infantry players see that vehicles are good and want to spec into vehicles? it is only fair to give everyone a chance to switch around. The whole 'chasing fotm' argument is stupid because in one month, everyone will already spec the current fotm anyway,so a respec only brings it closer, rather than stops it. Veteran players also won't benefit as much as new players. Most vets have between 20 mil (low) to 40 mil (high) and with a respec, probably wouldn't change much. Maybe they'd streamline a bit, ya know, ignore a few types of equipment and maybe spec out of the flaylock and swarm launchers, but that'd be it. The vets knew where to spend their SP from the get-go and new players did not. On the other hand, a newberry with 3 million SP all over the place would benefit a lot more from a RESPEC, as he would move around 100% of his SP to streamline and become effective, increasing his enjoyment of the game; a veteran might move around 20% of his SP. Personally, I have 25% of my SP in tanks and 75% in infantry (equipment, callogi, MD). I would like to have the option to streamline one way or the other. Truth is, most people who originally wanted to spec vehicles have put more SP into infantry because infantry is more profitable, but now we may want to try out vehicles again, and use them to their full effectiveness, just like someone else may want to put all their SP into one weapon and one suit. Nobody gets punished by a respec, only some are rewarded more than others. Newbs will stay at a disadvtange to vets, but it'll be less so, which is something we all need to keep this game alive. Iam pro-respec!
I'm putting SP into vehicles now to get a feel for them. If I stick with them in 1.7, I'd like to pull my SP out of Assault Rifles and put it into vehicles. I also have some SP in Caldari Assault, back from when I first started. I'd maybe have almost 2 million to put in.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
178
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Posted - 2013.11.22 04:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:
I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely.
What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's.
GÖªOf course you wont admit Bob is Afraid of Alex. You are Bob.
GÖªEven with his Poor SP decisions (which were NOT POOR AT THE TIME THEY WERE MADE, they got nerfed by Bob) Alex can still pound bob.
GÖªI never Said Bob was good. I said Bob has an advantage over Alex.
GÖªWho said Alex throwesd his SP about? Alex wanted to be a Nova Knife scout and an AV specialist. Both got Nerfed to the ground. This is not poor SP choices, not spending SP poorly, this is something inevitable that when it happns to BOB, ALex wont be there to support him.
GÖªDevs are breaking their word because there are more Alex's than Bobs, and the Devs KNOW Alex's are rights.Bobs arent.Simple. |
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
1253
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Yeah they really should have. Because of that I am likely to be stuck with the bullshit Gallentean crap I was forced to invest in and as a direct result ruining my enjoyment of a game I was so looking forwards to.
Nobody forced you to use Madrugars. Gunlogies are just as viable...
...
      
Check out my corp's new website here :D
-HAND
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DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
3090
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Posted - 2013.11.22 05:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
A full respec should be given to all players considering the BASIC content of the game wasn't there. Where's the rest of the racial scouts. Heavys, tanks, lavs, dropships? On that's right, they're still being thought of because CCP is dumb as **** and didn't put in place holders.
If you already have what you want then cool whatever. I'm like that.
I was going to go Gallente scout regardless of the other races. But now that I've played for so Long, I want to try something else out like the future tanks, and amarr scout. However I am not completely opposed to ppl who decline for a respec to get some cool cosmetic stuff (goodies)
GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢
Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà
Forum Warrior LV. 3
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
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Posted - 2013.11.22 05:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So basically, BOB wants to keep his advantage over Alex. We already knew this bro. bob is scared of Alex. PLUS its not all ALEX fault! There are no MLT variants of MANY stuff so he HAD to spend SP to test it. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Your rebuttal is stupid and you should feel stupid. I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely. What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's.
No racial Heavy variants for several months from the time you get into Heavies? That's OK; just get stomped for several months in militia gear until CCP decides to add them.
Your gun-gun-gun got nerfed and is no longer suitable for your purposes? That's OK; you can always rely on Remote Explosives, right?
New guns are introduced, swallowing your niche and presenting superior options to the one you chose, which was possibly the only option for your role at the time (say, you use Laser Rifles)? No problem. Just use your 19m span, 300 DPS Laser Rifle against the 78m span, 500 DPS Rail Rifles and 78m span, 900 (accounting recoil, this time, roughly) DPS Scrambler Rifles. That's OK; you can use standard guns for a month against all the protos when you would've chosen these guns to begin with, right?
3/6 combat skill trees are being completely redone and you want to get into vehicles if they aren't pieces of crap this time around and have 10 million SP in fat suits with assault rifles with complex damage modifiers and armor? That's OK; you can just Murder Taxi for a year to get that SP back and put it into vehicles.
I don't know about you, but these don't seem to lead to a happy and content player base.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
|
Azri Sarum
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
140
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
To me the arguments boil down to one thing, choice. Should DUST be the type of game where your choices matter? We have heard it from CCP in many different ways, even in videos (~1:00) that our choices matter.
Bob, knowing this, made his choices wisely. He does not want a respec because respecs do one thing above all else, invalidate all previous choices. Respecs make choice NOT matter.
I think Alex needs to HTFU.
EVE - Victor Maximus
DUST - Azri Sarum
|
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1221
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely.
What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's.
GÖªOf course you wont admit Bob is Afraid of Alex. You are Bob. GÖªEven with his Poor SP decisions (which were NOT POOR AT THE TIME THEY WERE MADE, they got nerfed by Bob) Alex can still pound bob. GÖªI never Said Bob was good. I said Bob has an advantage over Alex. GÖªWho said Alex throwesd his SP about? Alex wanted to be a Nova Knife scout and an AV specialist. Both got Nerfed to the ground. This is not poor SP choices, not spending SP poorly, this is something inevitable that when it happns to BOB, ALex wont be there to support him. GÖªDevs are breaking their word because there are more Alex's than Bobs, and the Devs KNOW Alex's are rights.Bobs arent.Simple.
Bolding everything you say is annoying. Fixed.
I won't even bother with a point-by-point, most of your points are pure opinion and heavily biased.
Bobs are not afraid of Alexs. Alexs feel persecuted and wish to turn that into a positive thing by thinking they are superior. You think you're better than a Bob. You are not. You are the same. Bob and Alex started the same, and had the same chances with the same points and same skills. Bob ended up doing better because he was careful. If Alex had simply been as careful, he would have been alot better off.
Also, if your particular Alex decided to specialize into a SIDEARM and a NICHE PLAY-STYLE without putting points into the basics, he shot himself in the foot. He never thought about what he would do in a wide-open map, he never thought what he would do without expensive caskets to hunt. He. Never. Thought.
Also, DEVs are not giving a full respec. Just a partial to vehicles because of major restructuring. Sensible and reasonable.
Shields as Weapons
|
lDocHollidayl
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
361
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
Well done. This is accurate. Humans are so greedy and hate when another human gets something they deem unwarranted. Greedy bastards. |
Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:He. Never. Thought.
So, who's biased now? I know, I know; if Alex specs into Logistics and CCP gives them nothing but a sidearm and clown shoes next, it's completely his fault, right?
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
|
DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
3090
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Azri Sarum wrote:To me the arguments boil down to one thing, choice. Should DUST be the type of game where your choices matter? We have heard it from CCP in many different ways, even in videos (~1:00) that our choices matter. Bob, knowing this, made his choices wisely. He does not want a respec because respecs do one thing above all else, invalidate all previous choices. Respecs make choice NOT matter.I think Alex needs to HTFU.
Choices matter huh? That's hilarious.
I specced into scout for the speed tanking fun.... 1.4 they added aim assist and BOOOM they killed speed tanking.
Yep choices matter.
GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢
Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà
Forum Warrior LV. 3
|
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
911
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
the op is missing something.
the learning curve is a fundamental part of this game. without it, the game loses a lot of it's "real" nature.
it's only the concept that bob can start after alex, make better decisions, show better self-control and get those skills that count... and bob can be better than alex. even if alex is an old character who made stupid or ill-informed decisions.
in this way bob has a chance to catch up to, and even surpass alex. that is the power that players have in this game. it's a different kind of power. it's the power of forethought and preparation.
in the real world alex does not get a respec. and neither does bob.
eve is real.
the alex's of new eden didn't save the triple sp that ccp just gave them. the alex's of new eden don't have 3 million sp sitting waiting for new gear. the alex's of new eden don't plan ahead.
the bob's of new eden are sitting with 3 or 5 million sp in their pocket right now just waiting to be better than alex when they drop those new rifles. the bob's of new eden know that alex isn't get his respec, and he can therefore be beaten.
 |
Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Azri Sarum wrote:To me the arguments boil down to one thing, choice. Should DUST be the type of game where your choices matter? We have heard it from CCP in many different ways, even in videos (~1:00) that our choices matter. Bob, knowing this, made his choices wisely. He does not want a respec because respecs do one thing above all else, invalidate all previous choices. Respecs make choice NOT matter.I think Alex needs to HTFU.
Alex's choices were made invalid when CCP completely shifted the dynamics of the game, wasting his previous SP, which used to be useful.
Basic content is being added that players never had the option to use. It doesn't matter 5 months back if you anticipated it, unless you either already had 15-30 million SP, in which case chances are holding back won't hurt you, or want to get stomped for those 5 months because your gear sucks.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
|
ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
179
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:
Bolding everything you say is annoying. Fixed.
I won't even bother with a point-by-point, most of your points are pure opinion and heavily biased.
Bobs are not afraid of Alexs. Alexs feel persecuted and wish to turn that into a positive thing by thinking they are superior. You think you're better than a Bob. You are not. You are the same. Bob and Alex started the same, and had the same chances with the same points and same skills. Bob ended up doing better because he was careful. If Alex had simply been as careful, he would have been alot better off.
Also, if your particular Alex decided to specialize into a SIDEARM and a NICHE PLAY-STYLE without putting points into the basics, he shot himself in the foot. He never thought about what he would do in a wide-open map, he never thought what he would do without expensive caskets to hunt. He. Never. Thought.
Also, DEVs are not giving a full respec. Just a partial to vehicles because of major restructuring. Sensible and reasonable.
GÖªBob and Alex are the same. Bob still has an UNFAIR advantage over Alex = INBALANCE
GÖªAlex was not necesarily NOT careful. Just Bob's decisions in SP didnt get heavily affected by changes over time and ALEX's did.
GÖªBOB is just being selfish since he doesnt need the repec.
GÖªI won't even bother with you , your points are pure opinion and heavily biased, You just CANT understand that ALEX might have planned BETTER than BOB, but BOB went Generic Mid Frame And AR and because Alex tried to play differnetly he is getting punished.Unecesarily. You are just ASSUMING , Alex never though. Well, bob went with a Generic FOTM that is still viable while ALEX DID indeed put a lot of effort in his SP books and got screwed over,while BOB did what most players did and happily says there is no need for respecs.
GÖªThey should also give one to AV players AT LEAST,a respec....since we got all nerfed to the ground.
GÖªCant stop my BOLD. |
|
|
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1221
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So basically, BOB wants to keep his advantage over Alex. We already knew this bro. bob is scared of Alex. PLUS its not all ALEX fault! There are no MLT variants of MANY stuff so he HAD to spend SP to test it. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Your rebuttal is stupid and you should feel stupid. I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely. What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's. No racial Heavy variants for several months from the time you get into Heavies? That's OK; just get stomped for several months in militia gear until CCP decides to add them. Your gun-gun-gun got nerfed and is no longer suitable for your purposes? That's OK; you can always rely on Remote Explosives, right? New guns are introduced, swallowing your niche and presenting superior options to the one you chose, which was possibly the only option for your role at the time (say, you use Laser Rifles)? No problem. Just use your 19m span, 300 DPS Laser Rifle against the 78m span, 500 DPS Rail Rifles and 78m span, 900 (accounting recoil, this time, roughly) DPS Scrambler Rifles. That's OK; you can use standard guns for a month against all the protos when you would've chosen these guns to begin with, right? 3/6 combat skill trees are being completely redone and you want to get into vehicles if they aren't pieces of crap this time around and have 10 million SP in fat suits with assault rifles with complex damage modifiers and armor? That's OK; you can just Murder Taxi for a year to get that SP back and put it into vehicles. I don't know about you, but these don't seem to lead to a happy and content player base.
All of these are cases for partial respecs at best. To play Devil's Advocate though...
Deciding to stay in Militia is a stupid excuse, they will probably give Amarr Heavy a partial like they did with Vehicles, or split it like they did with Destroyers. Use what you have and move on. Waiting for the DEVs to add something isn't gamebreaking. If it was, you simply wouldn't be playing.
If your gun got nerfed, it was most likely for good reason.
Laser Rifles still have a niche as they have no kick. Perfect accuracy, perfect line of death.
The main reason they are respeccing the vehicle tree is because the tree is being torn up completely, so they can then put their SP into the new tree. Any player moving their points to the Infantry trees as a result deserves to start back at the bottom.
Shields as Weapons
|
Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:17:00 -
[32] - Quote
low genius wrote:the op is missing something. the learning curve is a fundamental part of this game. without it, the game loses a lot of it's "real" nature. it's only the concept that bob can start after alex, make better decisions, show better self-control and get those skills that count... and bob can be better than alex. even if alex is an old character who made stupid or ill-informed decisions. in this way bob has a chance to catch up to, and even surpass alex. that is the power that players have in this game. it's a different kind of power. it's the power of forethought and preparation. in the real world alex does not get a respec. and neither does bob. eve is real. the alex's of new eden didn't save the triple sp that ccp just gave them. the alex's of new eden don't have 3 million sp sitting waiting for new gear. the alex's of new eden don't plan ahead. the bob's of new eden are sitting with 3 or 5 million sp in their pocket right now just waiting to be better than alex when they drop those new rifles. the bob's of new eden know that alex isn't get his respec, and he can therefore be beaten.
Maybe the Alex's of New Eden didn't want to get stomped for a month waiting for new gear? Oh, what fun. Get stomped on more for a month leading to the update or get stomped on for the month after the next update. Of course, chances are if you have 20 million SP it was easy to save up. Plus, high SP players start growing horizontally, leaving less room for optimization, anyway.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
|
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
1253
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
Some people fail to see how this could help even the field in terms of giving new players and people who didn't know better a second chance.
And before you say, "Oh well I could get a really good setup going with the starter 500,000 SP. There isn't a problem there". think about this, how many new players would know exactly what to do with their 500k SP?
Check out my corp's new website here :D
-HAND
|
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
983
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely.
What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's.
GÖªOf course you wont admit Bob is Afraid of Alex. You are Bob.
GÖªEven with his Poor SP decisions (which were NOT POOR AT THE TIME THEY WERE MADE, they got nerfed thanks to Bob QQ) Alex can still pound bob.
GÖªI never Said Bob was good. I said Bob has an advantage over Alex.
GÖªWho said Alex throwesd his SP about? Alex wanted to be a Nova Knife scout and an AV specialist. Both got Nerfed to the ground. This is not poor SP choices, not spending SP poorly, this is something inevitable that when it happns to BOB, ALex wont be there to support him.
GÖªDevs are breaking their word because there are more Alex's than Bobs, and the Devs KNOW Alex's are rights.Bobs arent.Simple.
Using bold text doesn't make your argument any more correct Ace, it just makes it more annoying to read. Any one who is great at written arguments will tell you that the words should speak for themselves. The formatting needs to be as unobtrusive as possible.
I'd also like to point out that you have single handedly taken a thread that was rather even handed and fair to both sides and started to turn it into a **** slinging match. By doing so you are not only dragging the ideas you are espousing here through the muck but also any other idea you may happen to post on this forum.
It is clear that you have a major emotional investment in respecs. That is fine. In fact CCP would say that getting you so emotionally invested that your actively engaging in text-based yelling matches is evidence that they are creating an immersive game. Congratulations, you've let your disbelief become suspended.
Remember though, this is a game. SP reset or not it is about having fun and getting angry certainly denies you that fun, in addition to doing nothing to help increase the chance of getting that SP reset you so desire.
Fun > Realism
|
ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
179
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:21:00 -
[35] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:
All of these are cases for partial respecs at best. To play Devil's Advocate though...
Deciding to stay in Militia is a stupid excuse, they will probably give Amarr Heavy a partial like they did with Vehicles, or split it like they did with Destroyers. Use what you have and move on. Waiting for the DEVs to add something isn't gamebreaking. If it was, you simply wouldn't be playing.
If your gun got nerfed, it was most likely for good reason.
Laser Rifles still have a niche as they have no kick. Perfect accuracy, perfect line of death.
The main reason they are respeccing the vehicle tree is because the tree is being torn up completely, so they can then put their SP into the new tree. Any player moving their points to the Infantry trees as a result deserves to start back at the bottom.
Well ithink is unfair to vehicle drivers to have a respec and being able to put those SP into infantry,and we infantry AV wont,even if our weapons were UNESESARILY NERFED (Ty to all the Tanker QQ) to the ground. Now i wont get a Partial respec on my FG,Swarms, AV grenades and PC? How come? what if i want to use it to spec into vehicles?
Seems like crappy decision making from CCP. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1222
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
Bolding everything you say is annoying. Fixed.
I won't even bother with a point-by-point, most of your points are pure opinion and heavily biased.
Bobs are not afraid of Alexs. Alexs feel persecuted and wish to turn that into a positive thing by thinking they are superior. You think you're better than a Bob. You are not. You are the same. Bob and Alex started the same, and had the same chances with the same points and same skills. Bob ended up doing better because he was careful. If Alex had simply been as careful, he would have been alot better off.
Also, if your particular Alex decided to specialize into a SIDEARM and a NICHE PLAY-STYLE without putting points into the basics, he shot himself in the foot. He never thought about what he would do in a wide-open map, he never thought what he would do without expensive caskets to hunt. He. Never. Thought.
Also, DEVs are not giving a full respec. Just a partial to vehicles because of major restructuring. Sensible and reasonable.
GÖªBob and Alex are the same. Bob still has an UNFAIR advantage over Alex = INBALANCE GÖªAlex was not necesarily NOT careful. Just Bob's decisions in SP didnt get heavily affected by changes over time and ALEX's did. GÖªBOB is just being selfish since he doesnt need the repec. GÖªI won't even bother with you , your points are pure opinion and heavily biased, You just CANT understand that ALEX might have planned BETTER than BOB, but BOB went Generic Mid Frame And AR and because Alex tried to play differnetly he is getting punished.Unecesarily. You are just ASSUMING , Alex never though. Well, bob went with a Generic FOTM that is still viable while ALEX DID indeed put a lot of effort in his SP books and got screwed over,while BOB did what most players did and happily says there is no need for respecs. GÖªThey should also give one to AV players AT LEAST,a respec....since we got all nerfed to the ground. GÖªCant stop my BOLD.
Bold stopped.
Bob has no unfair advantage. Bob had access to all the information Alex did, and made better decisions with it. He doesn't need a respec, nor does he want it because that means his care was in vain and fruitless. ALEX is being selfish, forcing his needs on Bob and not giving a damn. If he HAD planned better, he wouldn't be in this spot. He literally brought a knife to a gunfight in your case, what did he expect?
AV has not been nerfed. Vehicles and AV were scaled down, both of them. As such, if AV did 20 to a 200 HP HAV, it now does 2 to a 20 HP one.
Shields as Weapons
|
DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
3090
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely.
What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's.
GÖªOf course you wont admit Bob is Afraid of Alex. You are Bob.
GÖªEven with his Poor SP decisions (which were NOT POOR AT THE TIME THEY WERE MADE, they got nerfed thanks to Bob QQ) Alex can still pound bob.
GÖªI never Said Bob was good. I said Bob has an advantage over Alex.
GÖªWho said Alex throwesd his SP about? Alex wanted to be a Nova Knife scout and an AV specialist. Both got Nerfed to the ground. This is not poor SP choices, not spending SP poorly, this is something inevitable that when it happns to BOB, ALex wont be there to support him.
GÖªDevs are breaking their word because there are more Alex's than Bobs, and the Devs KNOW Alex's are rights.Bobs arent.Simple. Using bold text doesn't make your argument any more correct Ace, it just makes it more annoying to read. Any one who is great at written arguments will tell you that the words should speak for themselves. The formatting needs to be as unobtrusive as possible. I'd also like to point out that you have single handedly taken a thread that was rather even handed and fair to both sides and started to turn it into a **** slinging match. By doing so you are not only dragging the ideas you are espousing here through the muck but also any other idea you may happen to post on this forum. It is clear that you have a major emotional investment in respecs. That is fine. In fact CCP would say that getting you so emotionally invested that your actively engaging in text-based yelling matches is evidence that they are creating an immersive game. Congratulations, you've let your disbelief become suspended. Remember though, this is a game. SP reset or not it is about having fun and getting angry certainly denies you that fun, in addition to doing nothing to help increase the chance of getting that SP reset you so desire.
I always thought that the "this is just a game" argument is pretty stupid imo.
GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢
Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà
Forum Warrior LV. 3
|
ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
179
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:
Bold stopped.
Bob has no unfair advantage. Bob had access to all the information Alex did, and made better decisions with it. He doesn't need a respec, nor does he want it because that means his care was in vain and fruitless. ALEX is being selfish, forcing his needs on Bob and not giving a damn. If he HAD planned better, he wouldn't be in this spot. He literally brought a knife to a gunfight in your case, what did he expect?
AV has not been nerfed. Vehicles and AV were scaled down, both of them. As such, if AV did 20 to a 200 HP HAV, it now does 2 to a 20 HP one.
OH GOD, Bob and Alex DID Equally Good decisions, The nerf hammer just Hit Alex and NOT bob.
They both used their SP into stuff that worked equally better, BOB JUST GOT LUCKY, hes is NOT smarter.
He doesnt want/need a respec but in order to avoid loosing even MORE players CCP must consider giving ALEX's their respec.Since BOBS WONT leave if they get a respec, but ALEX's will if they dont.
''AV has not been nerfed. Vehicles and AV were scaled down, both of them. ''
then both of them deserve a partial Respec |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1222
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Some people fail to see how this could help even the field in terms of giving new players and people who didn't know better a second chance.
And before you say, "Oh well I could get a really good setup going with the starter 500,000 SP. There isn't a problem there". think about this, how many new players would know exactly what to do with their 500k SP?
Old players were new once, and made the same mistakes. If you respec them, you give them the same chance. This won't fix the gap between new and old, the old will simply use it to minmax themselves to the peak of power, while the newbies will get to refund their test points into Plasma Cannon I and Hacking III.
Shields as Weapons
|
Broonfondle Majikthies
Bannana Boat Corp
Relentless Heroes Alliance
483
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:26:00 -
[40] - Quote
Why should AR and Swarm users get a leg up when their weapons will function the way they're intended and no longer be god like points scorers?
We knew for months the AR was not the weapon it was intended to be and only a placeholder till the other weapons come in. Hell I'm an idiot and I knew it wasn't going to last with them dominating at all ranges.
As for the swarms its simply too easy and map dominating. Again you knew it wasn't going to last. If you honestly didn't then I pity you cus your weapon was horrible broken
Maybe my view is invalid cus I'm an existentialist and I take mastery of my choices. I don't see them as mistakes. They give me options
"...where Bylothgar the Ill-postured was made King of the People With No Name But Decent Footwear"
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|
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
911
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:low genius wrote:the op is missing something. the learning curve is a fundamental part of this game. without it, the game loses a lot of it's "real" nature. it's only the concept that bob can start after alex, make better decisions, show better self-control and get those skills that count... and bob can be better than alex. even if alex is an old character who made stupid or ill-informed decisions. in this way bob has a chance to catch up to, and even surpass alex. that is the power that players have in this game. it's a different kind of power. it's the power of forethought and preparation. in the real world alex does not get a respec. and neither does bob. eve is real. the alex's of new eden didn't save the triple sp that ccp just gave them. the alex's of new eden don't have 3 million sp sitting waiting for new gear. the alex's of new eden don't plan ahead. the bob's of new eden are sitting with 3 or 5 million sp in their pocket right now just waiting to be better than alex when they drop those new rifles. the bob's of new eden know that alex isn't get his respec, and he can therefore be beaten. Maybe the Alex's of New Eden didn't want to get stomped for a month waiting for new gear? Oh, what fun. Get stomped on more for a month leading to the update or get stomped on for the month after the next update. Of course, chances are if you have 20 million SP it was easy to save up. Plus, high SP players start growing horizontally, leaving less room for optimization, anyway.
I use standard guns and an advanced suit in almost every situation. it takes about 2 weeks to get both of those things, which means you can get two sets of them in a month.
what you're missing is: you'll eventually have all these suits, and all of these guns because you're a first year character. why are you in such a hurry? |
Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:
All of these are cases for partial respecs at best. To play Devil's Advocate though...
Deciding to stay in Militia is a stupid excuse, they will probably give Amarr Heavy a partial like they did with Vehicles, or split it like they did with Destroyers. Use what you have and move on. Waiting for the DEVs to add something isn't gamebreaking. If it was, you simply wouldn't be playing.
If your gun got nerfed, it was most likely for good reason.
Laser Rifles still have a niche as they have no kick. Perfect accuracy, perfect line of death.
The main reason they are respeccing the vehicle tree is because the tree is being torn up completely, so they can then put their SP into the new tree. Any player moving their points to the Infantry trees as a result deserves to start back at the bottom.
Okay, I'll take your word for it and spec 2,400,000 SP into prototype Amarr Sentinel suits. I'm sure I'll get a partial respec. Oh, wait. Then CCP won't and you'll just tell me to suck it up because I should've thought ahead.
Waiting for the DEVs to add something for several months, is, indeed, gamebreaking for many. Well, it's pretty easy if you just build passive SP and go play Killzone. See? Helping player retention already.
Guns are voluntarily nerfed and also nerfed by the addition of new guns, or the buffing of similar guns, really. Also, Laser Rifles have the worst DPS profile in the game to pay for the lack of kick, until around 25-30 rounds have been fired. Sure, if you can fire a whole clip at 65m into a Rail Rifle user you'll match their DPS on average or slightly exceed it. Chances are you'll be dead long before your DPS builds unless you fire at a wall for 4 second straight, but that's perfectly fine because it is recoiless. As of 1.6 with the improved hit detection, I can easily use a Scrambler or TAR to completely suppress a Laser Rifle user. I have not died to a Laser Rifle user I knew existed in the last 50 encounters with them since 1.6, unless they are head glitching and get me as I cross a desert. The Laser is a joke now. Luckily, I was not dumb enough to blow all my SP on it, even though I mained it for 2 months.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Lea Silencio
0uter.Heaven
Proficiency V.
735
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
I have always been in the "no respecs" group, but I have changed my stance on one issue: when all racial variants come out i.e. Caldari heavy, Amarr scout it would be a crime for CCP to not allow a total respec. It is their fault for not including all of that at commercial release tbh. Then, and only then, is a respec permissable.
Also, what IF Alex got his respec....would the current "pro respec" crowd change their tune if another new Alex came into the game and then demanded a respec because he messed up? Because let's face it....year after year as new players filter in and discover the game, there will ALWAYS be another Alex.
Food for thought.
Purification.
It's what I do.
|
Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:28:00 -
[44] - Quote
low genius wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:low genius wrote:the op is missing something. the learning curve is a fundamental part of this game. without it, the game loses a lot of it's "real" nature. it's only the concept that bob can start after alex, make better decisions, show better self-control and get those skills that count... and bob can be better than alex. even if alex is an old character who made stupid or ill-informed decisions. in this way bob has a chance to catch up to, and even surpass alex. that is the power that players have in this game. it's a different kind of power. it's the power of forethought and preparation. in the real world alex does not get a respec. and neither does bob. eve is real. the alex's of new eden didn't save the triple sp that ccp just gave them. the alex's of new eden don't have 3 million sp sitting waiting for new gear. the alex's of new eden don't plan ahead. the bob's of new eden are sitting with 3 or 5 million sp in their pocket right now just waiting to be better than alex when they drop those new rifles. the bob's of new eden know that alex isn't get his respec, and he can therefore be beaten. Maybe the Alex's of New Eden didn't want to get stomped for a month waiting for new gear? Oh, what fun. Get stomped on more for a month leading to the update or get stomped on for the month after the next update. Of course, chances are if you have 20 million SP it was easy to save up. Plus, high SP players start growing horizontally, leaving less room for optimization, anyway. I use standard guns and an advanced suit in almost every situation. it takes about 2 weeks to get both of those things, which means you can get two sets of them in a month. what you're missing is: you'll eventually have all these suits, and all of these guns because you're a first year character. why are you in such a hurry?
This is true enough. However, it is undeniably frustrating to have months of SP locked into stuff you now feel obligated to use, when you never would've picked it had the basic content already existed at the time. I'm not that bad off, but some are pretty bad, I'm sure.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
|
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
985
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:28:00 -
[45] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:
I always thought that the "this is just a game" argument is pretty stupid imo.
I just like to point it out to people who are taking this stuff far too seriously.
It is okay to get emotionally invested but in the end it is just a game and we need to be mellow and have fun with it.
Fun > Realism
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ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
179
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:28:00 -
[46] - Quote
Broonfondle Majikthies wrote:Why should AR and Swarm users get a leg up when their weapons will function the way they're intended and no longer be god like points scorers?
We knew for months the AR was not the weapon it was intended to be and only a placeholder till the other weapons come in. Hell I'm an idiot and I knew it wasn't going to last with them dominating at all ranges.
As for the swarms its simply too easy and map dominating. Again you knew it wasn't going to last. If you honestly didn't then I pity you cus your weapon was horrible broken
Maybe my view is invalid cus I'm an existentialist and I take mastery of my choices. I don't see them as mistakes. They give me options
Swarm launchers are/were not Broken
Swarm launchers were AV weaponry designed to destroy Tanks easily
As it is,tanks were able to take 6 full volleys of Swarm Launchers
the problem was Rendering (they were invisible to vehicle users) and MASSIVE homing capacity.
QQ got them nerfed
QQ from butthurts like yourself.
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1222
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:29:00 -
[47] - Quote
ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
All of these are cases for partial respecs at best. To play Devil's Advocate though...
Deciding to stay in Militia is a stupid excuse, they will probably give Amarr Heavy a partial like they did with Vehicles, or split it like they did with Destroyers. Use what you have and move on. Waiting for the DEVs to add something isn't gamebreaking. If it was, you simply wouldn't be playing.
If your gun got nerfed, it was most likely for good reason.
Laser Rifles still have a niche as they have no kick. Perfect accuracy, perfect line of death.
The main reason they are respeccing the vehicle tree is because the tree is being torn up completely, so they can then put their SP into the new tree. Any player moving their points to the Infantry trees as a result deserves to start back at the bottom.
Well ithink is unfair to vehicle drivers to have a respec and being able to put those SP into infantry,and we infantry AV wont,even if our weapons were UNESESARILY NERFED (Ty to all the Tanker QQ) to the ground. Now i wont get a Partial respec on my FG,Swarms, AV grenades and PC? How come? what if i want to use it to spec into vehicles?
Seems like crappy decision making from CCP.
Forgetting Bob and Alex for a minute, you seriously specced into Forge Guns, Swarm Launchers, AV grenades, and Plasma Cannons, as well as Nova Knives? That's three Light weapons, a Heavy weapon, a Sidearm, and the suits to go with them. And not ONCE did you think of spending some on an anti-infantry firearm? I need to say nothing, this speaks for itself.
You are an Alex.
Shields as Weapons
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DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
3091
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:30:00 -
[48] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:
I always thought that the "this is just a game" argument is pretty stupid imo.
I just like to point it out to people who are taking this stuff far too seriously. It is okay to get emotionally invested but in the end it is just a game and we need to be mellow and have fun with it.
Meh. It's a game like you said but isn't that the point? To get emotionally invested? I think so. It's more fun to get invested. When you take a game seriously, it's probably because its fun to do so.
Edit: perfect example is PC. It's alot of work to show up for the timers and it is serious. I mean like really serious. But it's fun to get serious. I think that shows promise.
GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢
Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà
Forum Warrior LV. 3
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ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
179
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:30:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lea Silencio wrote:I have always been in the "no respecs" group, but I have changed my stance on one issue: when all racial variants come out i.e. Caldari heavy, Amarr scout it would be a crime for CCP to not allow a total respec. It is their fault for not including all of that at commercial release tbh. Then, and only then, is a respec permissable.
Also, what IF Alex got his respec....would the current "pro respec" crowd change their tune if another new Alex came into the game and then demanded a respec because he messed up? Because let's face it....year after year as new players filter in and discover the game, there will ALWAYS be another Alex.
Food for thought.
CCP needs to implement a RESPEC option for NEW players after 4 - 5 Mill SP.
After that you get ONE chance to respec into something else , you can even save that chance forever.
But in order to AVOID mroe ALEX's , they need to have a second chance.
With THIS implemented and a FULL RESPEC when all racial stuff is released im pretty sure the ALEX rate would decrease,dramatically. |
Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:31:00 -
[50] - Quote
ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Broonfondle Majikthies wrote:Why should AR and Swarm users get a leg up when their weapons will function the way they're intended and no longer be god like points scorers?
We knew for months the AR was not the weapon it was intended to be and only a placeholder till the other weapons come in. Hell I'm an idiot and I knew it wasn't going to last with them dominating at all ranges.
As for the swarms its simply too easy and map dominating. Again you knew it wasn't going to last. If you honestly didn't then I pity you cus your weapon was horrible broken
Maybe my view is invalid cus I'm an existentialist and I take mastery of my choices. I don't see them as mistakes. They give me options Swarm launchers are/were not Broken
Swarm launchers were AV weaponry designed to destroy Tanks easily
As it is,tanks were able to take 6 full volleys of Swarm Launchers
the problem was Rendering (they were invisible to vehicle users) and MASSIVE homing capacity.
QQ got them nerfed
QQ from butthurts like yourself.
The only thing OP about Swarms were proto swarms, especially combined with mods. My Soma with 2 players repairing it is essentially invulnerable to standard swarms and unbuffed advanced swarms. It's only when you start getting Assault Forge Guns and Prototype Swarms do I usually die.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
|
|
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1222
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:31:00 -
[51] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
All of these are cases for partial respecs at best. To play Devil's Advocate though...
Deciding to stay in Militia is a stupid excuse, they will probably give Amarr Heavy a partial like they did with Vehicles, or split it like they did with Destroyers. Use what you have and move on. Waiting for the DEVs to add something isn't gamebreaking. If it was, you simply wouldn't be playing.
If your gun got nerfed, it was most likely for good reason.
Laser Rifles still have a niche as they have no kick. Perfect accuracy, perfect line of death.
The main reason they are respeccing the vehicle tree is because the tree is being torn up completely, so they can then put their SP into the new tree. Any player moving their points to the Infantry trees as a result deserves to start back at the bottom.
Okay, I'll take your word for it and spec 2,400,000 SP into prototype Amarr Sentinel suits. I'm sure I'll get a partial respec. Oh, wait. Then CCP won't and you'll just tell me to suck it up because I should've thought ahead. Waiting for the DEVs to add something for several months, is, indeed, gamebreaking for many. Well, it's pretty easy if you just build passive SP and go play Killzone. See? Helping player retention already. Guns are voluntarily nerfed and also nerfed by the addition of new guns, or the buffing of similar guns, really. Also, Laser Rifles have the worst DPS profile in the game to pay for the lack of kick, until around 25-30 rounds have been fired. Sure, if you can fire a whole clip at 65m into a Rail Rifle user you'll match their DPS on average or slightly exceed it. Chances are you'll be dead long before your DPS builds unless you fire at a wall for 4 second straight, but that's perfectly fine because it is recoiless. As of 1.6 with the improved hit detection, I can easily use a Scrambler or TAR to completely suppress a Laser Rifle user. I have not died to a Laser Rifle user I knew existed in the last 50 encounters with them since 1.6, unless they are head glitching and get me as I cross a desert. The Laser is a joke now. Luckily, I was not dumb enough to blow all my SP on it, even though I mained it for 2 months.
And I have Proficiency levels in Laser Rifles, what's your point?
Shields as Weapons
|
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
987
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:35:00 -
[52] - Quote
ACE OF JOKERS wrote:[
Well ithink is unfair to vehicle drivers to have a respec and being able to put those SP into infantry,and we infantry AV wont,even if our weapons were UNESESARILY NERFED (Ty to all the Tanker QQ) to the ground. Now i wont get a Partial respec on my FG,Swarms, AV grenades and PC? How come? what if i want to use it to spec into vehicles?
Seems like crappy decision making from CCP.
Arg! Again with the bold text already. Knock it off. It is really hard to read that.
Actually it is perfectly fair that vehicle users get a repsec of all the vehicle skill trees. Lots of the skills they initially bought into are no longer usable and all the equipment they are affecting had deeply changed. To not give them a respec of the vehicle related skills would be a travesty.
You as an infantry player on the other hand have had no massive changes made upon your skill tree in a very short time frame. Yes there have been changes but all the equipment you skilled for is still there and all the skills you bought into still exist as well. The stats those skills effect may have changed in minor ways, and the same can be said for the equipment but compared to the vehicle changes these are insignificant.
Yep. Its fair. I checked.
Fun > Realism
|
Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:36:00 -
[53] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
All of these are cases for partial respecs at best. To play Devil's Advocate though...
Deciding to stay in Militia is a stupid excuse, they will probably give Amarr Heavy a partial like they did with Vehicles, or split it like they did with Destroyers. Use what you have and move on. Waiting for the DEVs to add something isn't gamebreaking. If it was, you simply wouldn't be playing.
If your gun got nerfed, it was most likely for good reason.
Laser Rifles still have a niche as they have no kick. Perfect accuracy, perfect line of death.
The main reason they are respeccing the vehicle tree is because the tree is being torn up completely, so they can then put their SP into the new tree. Any player moving their points to the Infantry trees as a result deserves to start back at the bottom.
Okay, I'll take your word for it and spec 2,400,000 SP into prototype Amarr Sentinel suits. I'm sure I'll get a partial respec. Oh, wait. Then CCP won't and you'll just tell me to suck it up because I should've thought ahead. Waiting for the DEVs to add something for several months, is, indeed, gamebreaking for many. Well, it's pretty easy if you just build passive SP and go play Killzone. See? Helping player retention already. Guns are voluntarily nerfed and also nerfed by the addition of new guns, or the buffing of similar guns, really. Also, Laser Rifles have the worst DPS profile in the game to pay for the lack of kick, until around 25-30 rounds have been fired. Sure, if you can fire a whole clip at 65m into a Rail Rifle user you'll match their DPS on average or slightly exceed it. Chances are you'll be dead long before your DPS builds unless you fire at a wall for 4 second straight, but that's perfectly fine because it is recoiless. As of 1.6 with the improved hit detection, I can easily use a Scrambler or TAR to completely suppress a Laser Rifle user. I have not died to a Laser Rifle user I knew existed in the last 50 encounters with them since 1.6, unless they are head glitching and get me as I cross a desert. The Laser is a joke now. Luckily, I was not dumb enough to blow all my SP on it, even though I mained it for 2 months. And I have Proficiency levels in Laser Rifles, what's your point?
My point was that while you may have no problem losing a couple million SP in this, a couple million SP in that, or using a weaker gun because you have invested in many core skills and complex modules, many players are not. I'll have my vehicle SP refunded at 1.7, which at that time will probably be around 1.2 million SP, so I'll be able to spec that into whatever I choose, at least. The community is more than players like you. Dust 514 is a big enough time investment as it is, without having months of SP tied up in guns or suits you no longer use due to new choices and rebalancing.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
|
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
912
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:low genius wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:low genius wrote:the op is missing something. the learning curve is a fundamental part of this game. without it, the game loses a lot of it's "real" nature. it's only the concept that bob can start after alex, make better decisions, show better self-control and get those skills that count... and bob can be better than alex. even if alex is an old character who made stupid or ill-informed decisions. in this way bob has a chance to catch up to, and even surpass alex. that is the power that players have in this game. it's a different kind of power. it's the power of forethought and preparation. in the real world alex does not get a respec. and neither does bob. eve is real. the alex's of new eden didn't save the triple sp that ccp just gave them. the alex's of new eden don't have 3 million sp sitting waiting for new gear. the alex's of new eden don't plan ahead. the bob's of new eden are sitting with 3 or 5 million sp in their pocket right now just waiting to be better than alex when they drop those new rifles. the bob's of new eden know that alex isn't get his respec, and he can therefore be beaten. Maybe the Alex's of New Eden didn't want to get stomped for a month waiting for new gear? Oh, what fun. Get stomped on more for a month leading to the update or get stomped on for the month after the next update. Of course, chances are if you have 20 million SP it was easy to save up. Plus, high SP players start growing horizontally, leaving less room for optimization, anyway. I use standard guns and an advanced suit in almost every situation. it takes about 2 weeks to get both of those things, which means you can get two sets of them in a month. what you're missing is: you'll eventually have all these suits, and all of these guns because you're a first year character. why are you in such a hurry? This is true enough. However, it is undeniably frustrating to have months of SP locked into stuff you now feel obligated to use, when you never would've picked it had the basic content already existed at the time. I'm not that bad off, but some are pretty bad, I'm sure.
but it will always be that way. the game will change and balance 4 times a year drastically for the first few years. there will always be wasted skillpoints and there will always be wasted endeavors. there will be things introduced that destroy your current playstyle and require you to play differently.
it's the reason there's not a 'class' system or 'racial restrictions' system in new eden. if you were limited in any way as to what to skill next, then they would have to give you a respec to keep it interesting.
ccp always gives you a way to find a niche to kill old vets. |
Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:Mobius Kaethis wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:
I always thought that the "this is just a game" argument is pretty stupid imo.
I just like to point it out to people who are taking this stuff far too seriously. It is okay to get emotionally invested but in the end it is just a game and we need to be mellow and have fun with it. Meh. It's a game like you said but isn't that the point? To get emotionally invested? I think so. It's more fun to get invested. When you take a game seriously, it's probably because its fun.
This. People sometimes assume I am seething with rage mashing my keyboard or something. For me, this is a casual debate about a game I enjoy, even if the tone of some of my posts does not always suggest such.
low genius wrote:but it will always be that way. the game will change and balance 4 times a year drastically for the first few years. there will always be wasted skillpoints and there will always be wasted endeavors. there will be things introduced that destroy your current playstyle and require you to play differently.
it's the reason there's not a 'class' system or 'racial restrictions' system in new eden. if you were limited in any way as to what to skill next, then they would have to give you a respec to keep it interesting.
ccp always gives you a way to find a niche to kill old vets.
Playing differently and going back to the month-on-month grind is a bit different. One is adapting, one is getting stomped until a number reaches a threshold and you can start to adapt. There are indeed always ways to kill vets, though. You're not limited, but after a while doesn't it feel like the growth is horizontal? You'll settle on a playstyle and look back fondly at the millions of SP spread vertically across the tree? 
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
|
ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
179
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:43:00 -
[56] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:
Forgetting Bob and Alex for a minute, you seriously specced into Forge Guns, Swarm Launchers, AV grenades, and Plasma Cannons, as well as Nova Knives? That's three Light weapons, a Heavy weapon, a Sidearm, and the suits to go with them. And not ONCE did you think of spending some on an anti-infantry firearm? I need to say nothing, this speaks for itself.
You are an Alex.
Come to me bro, i'll show you how a SCR rifle is used.
Before the Uprising OPTIONAL Respec=
I was a Chromosome Scout.
When the SCR came out , I became a SCR specialist.
AFTER THE RESPEC we got in uprising:
I specced into SCR RIFLES and SCOUTS FIRST.
With this i went Amarr assault and Minmatar scouts
Scouts for CQ, AMarr Assault for every other map.
Nova knifes 5, Shotguns 5, SMGs 4 (that are still good, THANK GOD) , and a Lot Of My SP into Passive stuff for my scout.
When the Murder Taxi trend came along and was the FOTM, i decided i wanted to stop it.I had enough of it and i was NOT having fun anymore.
SO i invested into Amarr sentinel Lv 4, FG Proficiency 5, Swarm launcher to use on my assault amarr, Prof 5, Grenades Operation 5.(note , I didnt even USE locus grenades before. I only used the SP wor the Lai Dai packed ones....).The PC when it came out i only got it to level 3.
The commando Lv 3 is MY fault for trying to try stuff out,but its impossible to use the STD commando as it has NO slots.
This is a short history of my SP usage, since you are interested.
Except the commando, i dont really think i either jumped into any FOTM NOR wasted my Sp around.I dont deserve to run handicapped now.
Yeah i know what you are going to say, SCR! SCR are GOOD!
Well yeah , but i have 20 mill and i run ADV SCR and ADV Amarr asasult with 550 HP. LET ME RUN A PROFILE DAMPNED , 850EHP, IMPERIAL SCRAMBLER RIFLE + QUantum SCANNER Amarr Assault.
Heh, throw me at them Proto logis....
I have about 3 or 4 Mill SP that is actaully useful for my current play style.
7-8 maybe considering the Passives. Leaving me with a total of (in the best case scenario) 12 Million of wasted SP.
Now you might say: Your AV weapons were a kind of FOTM vs Murder taxis and you shouldnt get a respec!
WELL MURDER TAXIS ARE GETTING A RESPEC NOW ARENT THEY. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
914
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 05:51:00 -
[57] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:Mobius Kaethis wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:
I always thought that the "this is just a game" argument is pretty stupid imo.
I just like to point it out to people who are taking this stuff far too seriously. It is okay to get emotionally invested but in the end it is just a game and we need to be mellow and have fun with it. Meh. It's a game like you said but isn't that the point? To get emotionally invested? I think so. It's more fun to get invested. When you take a game seriously, it's probably because its fun. This. People sometimes assume I am seething with rage mashing my keyboard or something. For me, this is a casual debate about a game I enjoy, even if the tone of some of my posts does not always suggest such. low genius wrote:but it will always be that way. the game will change and balance 4 times a year drastically for the first few years. there will always be wasted skillpoints and there will always be wasted endeavors. there will be things introduced that destroy your current playstyle and require you to play differently.
it's the reason there's not a 'class' system or 'racial restrictions' system in new eden. if you were limited in any way as to what to skill next, then they would have to give you a respec to keep it interesting.
ccp always gives you a way to find a niche to kill old vets. Playing differently and going back to the month-on-month grind is a bit different. One is adapting, one is getting stomped until a number reaches a threshold and you can start to adapt. There are indeed always ways to kill vets, though. You're not limited, but after a while doesn't it feel like the growth is horizontal? You'll settle on a playstyle and look back fondly at the millions of SP spread vertically across the tree?
I started playing eve 8 years late. you know how boned I would be if they gave all those 10 year vets a respec?
my strength is making better decisions than my opponents. it's getting those skills that they decided were too time intensive to get. it's doing the thing that they put off and put off because it wasn't easy.
it's the only way to get ahead. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
991
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Posted - 2013.11.22 05:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
Forgetting Bob and Alex for a minute, you seriously specced into Forge Guns, Swarm Launchers, AV grenades, and Plasma Cannons, as well as Nova Knives? That's three Light weapons, a Heavy weapon, a Sidearm, and the suits to go with them. And not ONCE did you think of spending some on an anti-infantry firearm? I need to say nothing, this speaks for itself.
You are an Alex.
Come to me bro, i'll show you how a SCR rifle is used.Before the Uprising OPTIONAL Respec=I was a Chromosome Scout. When the SCR came out , I became a SCR specialist. AFTER THE RESPEC we got in uprising:I specced into S CR RIFLES and SCOUTS FIRST.With this i wen t Amarr assault and Minmatar scoutsScouts for CQ, AMarr Assault for every other map.Nova knifes 5, Shotguns 5, SMGs 4 (that are still good, THANK GOD) , and a Lot Of My SP into Passive stuff for my scout. When the Murder Taxi trend came along and was the FOTM, i decided i wanted to stop it.I had enough of it and i was NOT having fun anymore. SO i invested into Amarr sentinel Lv 4, FG Proficiency 5, Swarm launcher to use on my assault amarr, Prof 5, Grenades Operation 5.(note , I didnt even USE locus grenades before. I only used the SP wor the Lai Dai packed ones....).The PC when it came out i only got it to level 3. The commando Lv 3 is MY fault for trying to try stuff out,but its impossible to use the STD commando as it has NO slots. This is a short history of my SP usage, since you are interested.Except the commando, i dont really think i either jumped into any FOTM NOR wasted my Sp around.I dont deserve to run handicapped now. Yeah i know what you are going to say, SCR! SCR are GOOD! Well yeah , but i have 20 mill and i run ADV SCR and ADV Amarr asasult with 550 HP. LET ME RUN A PROFILE DAMPNED , 850EHP, IMPERIAL SCRAMBLER RIFLE + QUantum SCANNER Amarr Assault. Heh, throw me at them Proto logis.... I have about 3 or 4 Mill SP that is actaully useful for my current play style. 7-8 maybe considering the Passives. Leaving me with a total of (in the best case scenario) 12 Million of wasted SP. Now you might say: Your AV weapons were a kind of FOTM vs Murder taxis and you shouldnt get a respec! WELL MURDER TAXIS ARE GETTING A RESPEC NOW ARENT THEY.
So you are the player that choose to spend his skill points everywhere and now wants a respec so you can specialize. The OP described this as a valid point of view. I don't see why you're so antagonized by him.
I have to say I totally disagree that you deserve a respec. You've been too eclectic in your spending of your SP and turned yourself into a generalist. This isn't really a huge negative since now you can start specilizing and also have all those other generally usefull skills to fall back onto when a special situation demands it. That is no reason for a respec at all.
You may not have played EVE before but they don't get respecs and their skill point accrual is far less forgiving then ours. If CCP doesn't give repecs to EVE pilots (who by the way only had a very limited number of ships to choose from when EVE started) they why would they give them to us? Why do you inparticular deserve to get one when they have done nothing to drastically change your skill tree?
Its not like your skill in forge guns won't let you kill vehicles anymore (who cares if the vehicles have changed). If anything they are more destroyable.
Edit: I'd also like to point out tha
t the phrase you were looking for is "Come at me bro," which means you want to start a fist fight, something impossible for us forum warriors. Saying "Come to me bro," sounds really stupid. Its like your an 80 year old man trying to use those "darn kids' lingo."
Fun > Realism
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1225
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Posted - 2013.11.22 05:55:00 -
[59] - Quote
ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
Forgetting Bob and Alex for a minute, you seriously specced into Forge Guns, Swarm Launchers, AV grenades, and Plasma Cannons, as well as Nova Knives? That's three Light weapons, a Heavy weapon, a Sidearm, and the suits to go with them. And not ONCE did you think of spending some on an anti-infantry firearm? I need to say nothing, this speaks for itself.
You are an Alex.
Come to me bro, i'll show you how a SCR rifle is used.Before the Uprising OPTIONAL Respec=I was a Chromosome Scout. When the SCR came out , I became a SCR specialist. AFTER THE RESPEC we got in uprising:I specced into S CR RIFLES and SCOUTS FIRST.With this i wen t Amarr assault and Minmatar scoutsScouts for CQ, AMarr Assault for every other map.Nova knifes 5, Shotguns 5, SMGs 4 (that are still good, THANK GOD) , and a Lot Of My SP into Passive stuff for my scout. When the Murder Taxi trend came along and was the FOTM, i decided i wanted to stop it.I had enough of it and i was NOT having fun anymore. SO i invested into Amarr sentinel Lv 4, FG Proficiency 5, Swarm launcher to use on my assault amarr, Prof 5, Grenades Operation 5.(note , I didnt even USE locus grenades before. I only used the SP wor the Lai Dai packed ones....).The PC when it came out i only got it to level 3. The commando Lv 3 is MY fault for trying to try stuff out,but its impossible to use the STD commando as it has NO slots. This is a short history of my SP usage, since you are interested.Except the commando, i dont really think i either jumped into any FOTM NOR wasted my Sp around.I dont deserve to run handicapped now. Yeah i know what you are going to say, SCR! SCR are GOOD! Well yeah , but i have 20 mill and i run ADV SCR and ADV Amarr asasult with 550 HP. LET ME RUN A PROFILE DAMPNED , 850EHP, IMPERIAL SCRAMBLER RIFLE + QUantum SCANNER Amarr Assault. Heh, throw me at them Proto logis.... I have about 3 or 4 Mill SP that is actaully useful for my current play style. 7-8 maybe considering the Passives. Leaving me with a total of (in the best case scenario) 12 Million of wasted SP. Now you might say: Your AV weapons were a kind of FOTM vs Murder taxis and you shouldnt get a respec! WELL MURDER TAXIS ARE GETTING A RESPEC NOW ARENT THEY.
First, MurderTaxi isn't getting a resec because he is a muredertaxi. He is a beneficiary of lucky happenstance. His Taxi has already been nerfed out of Murder, and will shortly no longer even exist. No-one could say that it's fair for their SP to be locked up in a skill that literally doesn't exist anymore.
As for the sudden vehicular splurge, that wasn't reasoned. It sounds like a moment of passion or anger. An equally determined but more levelheaded clone would have just specced into one AV weapon. A more defeat-est clone would have ignored MurderTaxis entirely, confident in them being nerfed. If you were truly confident in your playstyle and truly wanted that perfect Assault Amarr fit, you wouldn't have splurged on all those flavors of AV points, then regretted all the extra horizontal it added to your SP tree. You made a bad choice. Simple as.
And no, there is no room for negotiation. No one needs to spec into more guns that fill the same niche than any suit in the game can fit at once.
Shields as Weapons
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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
943
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Posted - 2013.11.22 05:58:00 -
[60] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:You all say it as if it takes months and months of game play to get a fit to standard.
Really, I can get a New Infantry Alt up to snuff with like .5 mil.
Armor tanking is extremely potent at lower levels compared to shield tanking at the same level.
A standard Gal Suit with standard plates and reactives with standard AR, SMG, and nade, and a militia damage modifier.
597 EHP.
You don't need a ton of SP to get a good fit.
This. If you need proto to get a good fit, just admit you suck at Dust..
The Ellecon's come from a long line of Gallente. Tarn chose Peace. Tallen chose war.
SoonGäó514
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
993
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Posted - 2013.11.22 05:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:And no, there is no room for negotiation. No one needs to spec into more guns that fill the same niche than any suit in the game can fit at once.
If only this were true, but that's the point. You start with Lasers. Okay, hit collision in 1.6 makes semiautomatics very powerful and the Laser hard to stay alive with. You spec into TARs for the long range and scope, both being better than the Scrambler. The Scrambler gets a 30m range extension and the TAR gets a 5m nerf, while the Rail Rifle also is added. Now what? Spec into Scrambler Rifles, everyone complains the range is OP, it gets nerfed to 45m from the 78m. Spec into Rail Rifles. CCP decides to make the spool up time 1 second instead and increase the kick and it's a big turd. The cycle continues.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1303
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Posted - 2013.11.22 06:08:00 -
[62] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
So what's your view on those that put points into vehicles?
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1225
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Posted - 2013.11.22 06:09:00 -
[63] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:And no, there is no room for negotiation. No one needs to spec into more guns that fill the same niche than any suit in the game can fit at once. If only this were true, but that's the point. You start with Lasers. Okay, hit collision in 1.6 makes semiautomatics very powerful and the Laser hard to stay alive with. You spec into TARs for the long range and scope, both being better than the Scrambler. The Scrambler gets a 30m range extension and the TAR gets a 5m nerf, while the Rail Rifle also is added. Now what? Spec into Scrambler Rifles, everyone complains the range is OP, it gets nerfed to 45m from the 78m. Spec into Rail Rifles. CCP decides to make the spool up time 1 second instead and increase the kick and it's a big turd. The cycle continues.
Much of that is pointless conjecture...
Also, one thing I'd love to stress. You don't spec into tactical assalt rifles. You spec into Assault Rifles... and get TAR as a bonus. If you didn't spec into the weapon tree that is specifically denoted as the tactical rifles, then it is no-one's fault but your own.
Also, 1.6 made full autos more powerful. Technically, it didn't, it just made them as powerful as they were always programmed to be. If that was higher than they were supposed to be... only the DEVs can say.
Shields as Weapons
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shady merc
RisingSuns
Public Disorder.
26
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Posted - 2013.11.22 06:10:00 -
[64] - Quote
Most of the respec argument comes from balancing issues in the game not from the question of should Respec be allowed.
Weapon and play styles becomes unusable is a balancing problem.(assuming this isn't what happen to Alex)
Your character Alex did 1of 2 things to create his issue
1. He put in far to many sp into something to try it out. Level 1 is enough to get a feel for something. Anything more was in vain if he didn't like the play style. This is mostly because he was looking to win and not play the game
2. Alex decided to get instance gratification by buying cheaper skills and not grinding To get the higher tiers.
Alex may streamline his skills after the respec. does that effect Bob yes in indirectly it does. How?
1. Alex can streamline his skills however that doesn't mean he will make good decisions. He still needs to put in time like Bob did looking over the skill tree. Who remembers this problem with the first respec?
2. By streamlining his skill Alex increases the chance of Bob playing against a specialized player. however this does not mean Alex spec into the " Rock" that beat Bob's scissors. Alex may of became Bob's paper and chose to remove points from said rock.
What do respecs harm?
CCP's ability to balance: a respec does not let them see the weapon's progression through the tiers. The flay lock comes to mind on this the proto version was OP however all flay lock took a hit maybe harder then they should of.
2. The meta game: with respecs allowed you will start to see only 2 play styles being used. You will have the current "rock" playstyle and a smaller population of "Paper" playstyle. The shear number of "rocks" on the battlefield will make scissor an unusable option due to the lack of "Papers" on the field.
3. Versatility : due to the constant respecs having the ability to play as all 3 types (paper,rock,scissor) during one match loses its usefulness as you will continue to fight people with huge skillpoints in 1 of 2 play styles. You will not be a strong enough paper to beat rock, your not a strong enough rock to beat rock, and like in 2. Scissor is irrelevant.
4. Immersion: simply being able to change on the fly lowers the emotional connection to the character as you do not have a define roll.
With all of that said do I think we need a respec. No we don't. Should we get one. Yes, with the known vehicle changes as well as the changes in rifle ranges. Combined with the fact that ccp has said the scout suits are being tested and the heavy are near completion. This game is about to be turned upside down. With such vast changes and hopefully a good amount of balancing the game should finally start to see defined roles. So now is the time to allow the players to remake their play style choice, they can choose the cqc ar or the ranged rr. They can decide to run the faster minmatar heavy or slower armar scout with more hitpoints
If ccp decided to do this along with balancing then the dream of a paper rock scissor game will finally start to come to light. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1225
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 06:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So what's your view on those that put points into vehicles?
That is a partial respec. They deserve those points because those skills will literally not exist after 1.7. Look at the first page, and check out who a Jack is.
Shields as Weapons
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Subject 36
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
11
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Posted - 2013.11.22 06:21:00 -
[66] - Quote
I still don't see why Bob is upset. Alex could now spend his skill points carefully. Alex should should STFU and not be upset for a thing that didn't affect him in any negative way but just being an angry little s***.
The Logi That Saves.
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
1892
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Posted - 2013.11.22 06:29:00 -
[67] - Quote
I say no to respecs cause those who maxed out flaylocks knew they where overpowered should stay with the consequences in abusing it till it got nerfed. Or the other example when the caldari logistic recieved a nerf i can honestly say that 99% of the people woulda had instantly respecced into a other suit. Respecs are just a tool to avoid the nerfbat.
On the vehicle skilltree its udnerstandable due to the removal of various vehicles and a total revamp how vehicle, modules turrets are going to perform and the addition off alot of new skills to it. You cant demand a partial respec only because the new weapons are going to be released (rail rifle+combat rifle) cause they where announced for quite a while and you could easy safe SP to get proto on day 1.
I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1303
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Posted - 2013.11.22 06:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So what's your view on those that put points into vehicles? That is a partial respec. They deserve those points because those skills will literally not exist after 1.7. Look at the first page, and check out who a Jack is.
So what if those pilots don't want to use vehicles anymore, because everything about them is going to change?
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1226
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 06:38:00 -
[69] - Quote
Subject 36 wrote:I still don't see why Bob is upset. Alex could now spend his skill points carefully. Alex should should STFU and not be upset for a thing that didn't affect him in any negative way but just being an angry little s***.
Bob is upset because all his choices are rendered moot, and his better decision-making skills are made pointless. Alex got a candy instead of a whipping, while Bob got nothing.
Shields as Weapons
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The Robot Devil
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
1261
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Posted - 2013.11.22 06:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
Reasons For:
Allows new players a chance to restart.
Allows players a chance to try something new.
Brings in new players.
Brings back old players.
Gear was nerfed.
Unfinished racial line up.
Gives new players the ability to compete.
Reasons Against:
Creates fotm.
Creates the cycle of more respecs.
Choices matter.
Everyone starts the same and it should stay that way.
New gear is easy to get into.
It isn't fair to players who are just starting or hasn't started.
Gear wasn't nerfed, it was balanced.
You had the same choices we did.
New players don't know about respecs.
Only a few players will return because the line up is still unfinished.
I think that a full refund of SP is bad for the game and here are my reasons. New players do have the same choices if not more than we did when we started and although we did, so they should isn't a valid argument players should have to make hard choices that matter. If a player reads then most of the time the choices may not be the best at that moment but it usually helps that player somewhere. Is it fair to a person who has been playing for a week to have their SP refunded at the same time as everyone else? I only have 13-14 M SP and I have been playing since closed beta, is it fair to me that a person with 20 M SP have their SP refunded? They would have the twice the SP at their respec as I did.
Choices do matter in New Eden but only to an extent. After a month or so of gaming a player should have one specialized skill branch or most of the core skilled up. If you aren't smart enough to stop putting SP into a skill when you know that it is very limited or broken then I don't know what to tell you. Sorry you didn't get what you wanted but that is life so saying a respec is deserved isn't valid because that excuse can be used for any other new item released. New gear is easy enough to get into and learn if you like. Everyone always says that this or that weapon isn't competitive unless it's proto and you are correct because proto is the best and borders on being OP.
I think that CCP should only refund removed skills because anything else is unfair to every player in one way or another and the only way to keep it fair is by only refunding removed skills. I realize that some of the gear that we wanted wasn't released when the game was but that doesn't give us a right to a respec. That argument can be used for 100 different items CCP has talked about. People also say that their item was nerfed until it was useless, if you didn't know it was OP while playing the game then you are beyond help.
The only things that are going to bring players back and hold them here is content and more content. The problem is in how things are released. Working in uncharted territory is difficult and releasing new items into the game is difficult. Introducing new items is hard on the game and players. People who are smart will have lots of SP saved and done the math to figure out what is the best. Day one they proto that branch of the tree and the weapon is instantly OP to most people. People call OP on the forums and a nerf is inbound, all the while those same people are skilling into that weapon to "stay competitive". When the nerf lands it hits them hard and their fit is useless and they blame CCP for killing the weapon. So they need a respec.
Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1226
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Posted - 2013.11.22 06:48:00 -
[71] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So what's your view on those that put points into vehicles? That is a partial respec. They deserve those points because those skills will literally not exist after 1.7. Look at the first page, and check out who a Jack is. So what if those pilots don't want to use vehicles anymore, because everything about them is going to change?
It's somewhat unfair for them to be able to respec them into Infantry, but it would no doubt be ridiculously overcomplicated to lock those SP to vehicles. The vehicle pilots are getting a lucky break, and if they wish to join the ground-pounders then fine. I personally always felt that Vehicles were a mid-game thing, something to aspire to later on after you set your core. In either case, if they no longer have trust in their vehicles, let them abandon them. There are just as many problems on the Infantry side.
Besides, they get to see the new vehicles before they have to start putting points back. That's pretty darn fair.
Shields as Weapons
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
112
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Posted - 2013.11.22 07:31:00 -
[72] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
Sounds like a Viagra commercial .
" BANE " of ALL vehicle users , Crush , Kill and Destroy ALL vehicles !!!!!
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1304
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 08:01:00 -
[73] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So what's your view on those that put points into vehicles? That is a partial respec. They deserve those points because those skills will literally not exist after 1.7. Look at the first page, and check out who a Jack is. So what if those pilots don't want to use vehicles anymore, because everything about them is going to change? It's somewhat unfair for them to be able to respec them into Infantry, but it would no doubt be ridiculously overcomplicated to lock those SP to vehicles. The vehicle pilots are getting a lucky break, and if they wish to join the ground-pounders then fine. I personally always felt that Vehicles were a mid-game thing, something to aspire to later on after you set your core. In either case, if they no longer have trust in their vehicles, let them abandon them. There are just as many problems on the Infantry side. Besides, they get to see the new vehicles before they have to start putting points back. That's pretty darn fair.
Jesus christ, how many times do I have to say it? This isn't a flavor of the month thing, or wanting a respec for the sake of it. They're removing turrets, modules, skills and hulls. They're changing activation and cooldown times for modules. They're changing the effectiveness of modules. For some pilots, honestly, it just won't be worth it anymore due to the changes infantry forced on CCP. We make tanks work now, and infantry doesn't like it, because they STILL complain that vehicles are OP.
Don't you see, that's it's CCP changing this, completely, and not looking for an easy out?
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Infamous Erich
Inf4m0us
41
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 08:33:00 -
[74] - Quote
But what does bob do when he has everything perfect then they do a massive nerf and make the class worthless start over again? all that time spent on boosters to gain more sp was wasted in a sense besides from core skills and in a game where sp is everything and takes a long time to get the amount needed something needs to be done.
Closed Beta Vet
Shield Tank Vet
Bring back my Sagaris
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
252
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 08:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
Well and you have Hank, Hank followed basicly Bob's way of spending SP carefully spending his SP into things that cater his playstyle. But month after he spents his SP CCP decides that Hanks way is not what they wanted and changed the Skills Hank has his SP invested in.
Now Hank has spend millions of SP into something that he no longer can enjoy.
In that case CCP would help Hank to undo a Decision that CCP made for him... |
The Shadow Prince
Harimau Malaya.
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 08:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
Im a Bob but I dont care if Alex gets a respec. Im not afraid of Alex coming at me with newly spent SP into better suits/weapons. If there is a Bob that is scared of an Alex then lets be honest that Bob is prolly a scrub. I could care less about respecs on my toon, i planned well (with help when i started) but i feel that a respec will help the player count go up, and thats the important thing. |
Ronan Elsword
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
100
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 08:50:00 -
[77] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
If by goodies you mean a BPO Vehicle or Proto Suit of our choice sure. Actually BPO of a Thales would be nice.
"Do not underestimate the power you have."
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
997
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 11:12:00 -
[78] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:And no, there is no room for negotiation. No one needs to spec into more guns that fill the same niche than any suit in the game can fit at once. If only this were true, but that's the point. You start with Lasers. Okay, hit collision in 1.6 makes semiautomatics very powerful and the Laser hard to stay alive with. You spec into TARs for the long range and scope, both being better than the Scrambler. The Scrambler gets a 30m range extension and the TAR gets a 5m nerf, while the Rail Rifle also is added. Now what? Spec into Scrambler Rifles, everyone complains the range is OP, it gets nerfed to 45m from the 78m. Spec into Rail Rifles. CCP decides to make the spool up time 1 second instead and increase the kick and it's a big turd. The cycle continues. Much of that is pointless conjecture... Also, one thing I'd love to stress. You don't spec into tactical assalt rifles. You spec into Assault Rifles... and get TAR as a bonus. If you didn't spec into the weapon tree that is specifically denoted as the tactical rifles, then it is no-one's fault but your own. Also, 1.6 made full autos more powerful. Technically, it didn't, it just made them as powerful as they were always programmed to be. If that was higher than they were supposed to be... only the DEVs can say.
Everything but the Rail Rifles being nerfed for being OP in the future has already happened, or has been confirmed. There aren't many choices for any given niche so as things get tossed around, players inevitably end up speccing into multiple similar weapons unless they make a strong effort not to, or were on the receiving end of a buff. TARs have been good enough and different enough, even after the last nerf, to stand on their own. They have a scope and a 15m advantage over Scrambler Rifles and are the only gun that covers about the same ground as the Laser Rifle. If you like that 55-75m range, there's Laser Rifles and there's TARs. That's it. Also, 1.6 made everything more powerful. Full autos can snipe at 60-70m much more effectively than before and semiautomatics are easier to hit with. Both of these make it nearly impossible to stay alive with a Laser Rifle without a ring of squad mates around you, and even when you do, you probably could've done much better with a TAR.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Himiko Kuronaga
The Generals
EoN.
2342
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 11:15:00 -
[79] - Quote
Just don't give anyone a respec.
Seems like a reasonable solution to a problem that doesn't exist. |
Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
811
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 11:21:00 -
[80] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
there is also john, the guy that was forced to choose amarr heavy instead of any other racial heavy because of lack of content.
and also Barney that skilled up something he enjoys, e.g. scouts which patch after patch was ninja nerfed due to some small mechanic changes like movement speed changes and aim assist.
I could go on longer with even more cases where CCP screwed it up but even the stupiest guy should now get the point  |
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Ryme Intrinseca
Seraphim Auxiliaries
267
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 11:25:00 -
[81] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
Normally I would agree with you. But then we bring in Charlie, who has dumped all his points in dropships and tanks. Turns out this was a really bad decision, he's bored of vehicles. But CCP come to the rescue and give Charlie a respec, but tell Alex and Bob to **** off. That's not fair on either Alex or Bob. Why should one part of the playerbase get preferential treatment? Yet that is what CCP's current plan is.
In these circumstances, where part of the playerbase is getting a respec, the lesser of two evils is for everyone to get one. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
1744
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 11:36:00 -
[82] - Quote
OP your wrong
Im Bob
I put all my SP into the vehicle tree and pretty much maxed it out for what i wanted, then i ended up saving 8mil SP for pilot suits which never came
So i ended up spending them SP into infantry
Now the vehicle tree SP sink has increased by a factor of 3 even tho i put all my points into my vehicle tree i wont have enough to do what i did in 1.6
Im getting punished but not because of the choices i made, i made my choices, i couldnt hold onto the SP i saved for 6months or more while CCP bumbled about, the SP i put into the vehicle tree is no longer enough for 1.7 because CCP made it into a SP sink |
Pvt Numnutz
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
280
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 12:15:00 -
[83] - Quote
thank you for posting this. People should have stopped asking for a respec after uprising was launched. I would be one of those people who knew what they wanted to do and have spent my skill points to make my pilot the best he can be. A respec would be really annoying for me as i would have to put all my sp back where it was which would be really tedious and if i make a mistake what then?
There is a rumor going around that vehicle pilots will be getting a respec with 1.7 i hope this is not the case. I could understand getting one because there are alot more skills that might screw up the tree for some pilots. However there should not be full respecs any more forever. |
Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
739
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 12:21:00 -
[84] - Quote
Then there is Sally. Sally say F it. i wrote my skills down in a spreadsheet and can spec right back up easily. Then there is Robby. Robby doesn't have a problem blazing back through the skill trees because he's not full ******. You'd have to redo the skills if the skill tree has changed anyway (which it will be eventually).
Then there is me that thinks reskillng is fun with beer.
If you don't think sniping is the greatest thing everGǪ I will fight you. That's no lie.
-GÇö Ron Burgundy paraphrased
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mr musturd
0uter.Heaven
Proficiency V.
83
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 12:42:00 -
[85] - Quote
who dafuq are Bob and Alex? |
CRAZYHORSE ONE EIGHT
CowTek
IT Infotech
34
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 13:22:00 -
[86] - Quote
Bob and Alex need to get a room. |
Upper Deckin
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 13:24:00 -
[87] - Quote
How many respec's did bob get during beta ?
Where he got to learn on a even playing field .
**** Alex , stupid noob spending points to try weapons because not every weapon had a MLT variant .
This thinking will continue to drive away the new player who starts the game ,gets screwed not knowing he picked a FOTM as his weapon and gets stuck with a nerf , because the game isn't done and they have to tweak it some more.
Thanks unknowing beta tester !!! Thumbs up!!!
Why continue putting time into a game they keep changing ?
He's not addicted ,he'll go play something else.
I'm sorry but a 5 year plan doesn't mean much when they don't even know how the basic gameplay should be .
You guys on here get all white knight about the game .
"We can't give respecs ! You have to live with your choices!!!!!!
Thing is kids ...CCP doesn't live with theirs. |
calisk galern
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
1232
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 13:34:00 -
[88] - Quote
Actually it's more like
You have bob who specced into the fotm perfectly while he moving up the ranks as a caldari logi, before they were nerfed. now he's specced into gallente logi right before they get nerfed in 1.7. Fortunately for bob he can now respec into the new most over powered suit for 1.7 thanks to this respec, and so can bob's 50 friends in his corp, and now they can properly pub stomp every newb without 20mil sp, bob can regain that 7-8 mil he wasted on a currently sub par fitting.
and yes...I AM BOB!
careful what you wish for kiddies cause you better ******* hope you don't get it. |
CRAZYHORSE ONE EIGHT
CowTek
IT Infotech
34
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 14:28:00 -
[89] - Quote
His name is Robert Paulson .... His name is Robert Paulson .... His name is Robert Paulson .... |
steadyhand amarr
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1957
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 14:34:00 -
[90] - Quote
No respecs Bob's smart decision making should be rewards. EvE rewards smart players and that mentally should carry over to dust still anoyyed these threads keep getting raised.
Sometimes in games things that **** u off are in there to **** u off on purpose. WOW graveyard runs are a perfect example of this :-)
"my faith is my shield, the empress's light my guide and my fury my sword"
winner of EU squad cup
GOGO power rangers
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ChribbaX
Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control
Otherworld Empire Productions
851
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 14:36:00 -
[91] - Quote
Here's my reason for not wanting them - and this is purely based upon my experience playing eve for over 10 years and the decision over skills that comes with that.
Flavor of the month, or should we say flavor of the patch, things are being changed in the game, something nerfed something buffed, people will generally spec into FOTM/W/P setups if they can. Not giving out respecs makes a much more dynamic gameplay, sometimes you're good sometimes worse off kinda.
In eve making decisions on what to train made my years of playing much more fun anyway, I've made mistakes, I've made good calls training something that turned out being buffed in one way, giving me a head start over others in for example manufacturing.
It also taught me to learn by my mistakes, foolishly training something because it sounds cool taught me that perhaps I should dig into things a bit more and actually gather some knowledge what the skill and skill path will do for me and push me torwards - something that if I could respec every now and then most likely would not learn.
So for me, not being able to change stuff around has extended my enjoyment and gameplay, sure there's been times where I've been meh for not being able to do something or realizing I wasted 3 months training for something I will never use, but I come to term that's how things work in this universe.
/c
DUSTBoard - Mercenary sheets
DUSTSearch - DUST Forum mirror
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CRAZYHORSE ONE EIGHT
CowTek
IT Infotech
34
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 14:40:00 -
[92] - Quote
Pretty sure Bob has ***** ****. |
Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1125
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 14:47:00 -
[93] - Quote
I for one would hate spending all my SP again. This **** takes time too. If they totally change a skill tree (like vehicles) then okay. But everything else? God dammit Alex. You have to learn that spending your SP in something you don't need doesn't prevent you from still skilling the stuff you do want. I too have spent points into Caldari Advanced Assault suits. And I never use them! I too have spent millions of points into Assault rifles and yet I'm going to spec into Combat Rifles with 1.7. I won't complain. Why? Because I can still skill everything I want. Having some points in Assault Rifles won't prevent me from using the Combat Rifle. I'll just have to wait a little longer. And if you're not patient, then Dust isn't a game for you anways. And I mean really. How long do you guys wanting a respec want one now? Why haven't you used stuff like the triple SP event or the time since you started QQing to spec into what you really want now? Because this is totally possible.
And even if you get a respec now you will come to the point where you will spec what you once had before your respec. So why hand them out? There's not a single reason to do this. Every other game that offers respecs offers them because you can't do this. Because you are forced to chose and you can't spec everything. This is the reason respecs exist. In a game like Dust or Eve that wouldn't make any sense. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
1749
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 14:52:00 -
[94] - Quote
steadyhand amarr wrote:No respecs Bob's smart decision making should be rewards. EvE rewards smart players and that mentally should carry over to dust still anoyyed these threads keep getting raised.
Sometimes in games things that **** u off are in there to **** u off on purpose. WOW graveyard runs are a perfect example of this :-)
Im Bob
I put all my SP into the vehicle tree and pretty much maxed it out for what i wanted, then i ended up saving 8mil SP for pilot suits which never came
So i ended up spending them SP into infantry
Now the vehicle tree SP sink has increased by a factor of 3 even tho i put all my points into my vehicle tree i wont have enough to do what i did in 1.6
Im getting punished but not because of the choices i made, i made my choices, i couldnt hold onto the SP i saved for 6months or more while CCP bumbled about, the SP i put into the vehicle tree is no longer enough for 1.7 because CCP made it into a SP sink |
Onesimus Tarsus
Kameira Lodge
Amarr Empire
686
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 15:20:00 -
[95] - Quote
It doesn't matter. None of it. They should hand out respecs with a big red button in the Merc Quarters that does it free, as often as anyone likes. Why? Because none of it matters. You run about, go pew pew at people until you get pew pew and "die". But you didn't. You're immortal. So, the first hard rule of combat was chucked to the ditch as step one: you die when you get shot. After that little gift, what consequence matters, much less some little SP respec?
It doesn't matter.
Free instantaneous respecs for anyone who wants them. Now.
Better yet, remove SP entirely and let everyone have access to top gear at top prices from the get-go.
And to all those schmucks who can make a leet suit at 50 total SP, bravo. Tell me again why you then care if someone else has to spend 400k SP to do the same unicorn-rainbow miracle?
It. Just. Doesn't. Matter. (tm) |
SHROOM Headshot
Free Association Industries
8
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 16:02:00 -
[96] - Quote
I've been playing for about a month now and here's how I did it. I guess I'm a "Alex". I've been playing FPS/3PS since golden eye
Make player 1 (PL1). Play game. get butt raped. Spend SP on mass drivers. Still get buttraped. Figure out core skills and armor/shield mods are important to survivability. Crap! Out of SP....
Make Player 2 (PL2). Grind starter fits. Research on forums. Save SP for now.
Make PL3. Experiment with weapons skills on PL3. Find weapon I like. Terminate PL3.
Grind PL2. Skill into core skills and weapon on PL2. Play game. Get buttraped still (just not as hard )
Whether newberrys get a respec or not isn't going to turn the tides on vet players. Guys with 20-40mil SP are still going to crush guys with 2mil SP.
I think the complaint a lot of people are dealing with is that the learning curve on the game is very high (which is why I play tbh). New players become discouraged and quit when they spend all there SP on gear that doesn't help them right now on the field. Being OHK 1 second out of spawn over and over is obviously not fun for newberrys. This is the issue that needs to be addressed. I don't know if a respec is a solution for this problem, certainly not a permanent one. All games have this. Players who have been on since day 1 always have an advantage over new players, especially in Dust. Be it knowledge of the game mechanics from experience or advantages from gear unavailable to new players.
Just throwing my hat into the sea of opinions here. For the record I don't expect a respec. I'll gladly take one but I made my decision and I'm willing to live with that |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1230
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 16:12:00 -
[97] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
Jesus christ, how many times do I have to say it? This isn't a flavor of the month thing, or wanting a respec for the sake of it. They're removing turrets, modules, skills and hulls. They're changing activation and cooldown times for modules. They're changing the effectiveness of modules. For some pilots, honestly, it just won't be worth it anymore due to the changes infantry forced on CCP. We make tanks work now, and infantry doesn't like it, because they STILL complain that vehicles are OP.
Don't you see, that's it's CCP changing this, completely, and not looking for an easy out?
You seem to be seeing what you want to see. I said It was fine for the partial respec, as those skills won't exist anymore. You just keep asking leading questions until you find something to whine about. I never said anything about FotM, nor a respec for the sake of it. Stop imagining persecution where it doesn't exist.
Shields as Weapons
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Cody Sietz
Unkn0wn Killers
Renegade Alliance
1515
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Posted - 2013.11.22 16:28:00 -
[98] - Quote
I'm against a respec cause everyone is going to sepc into Gal Logi and ScR. Basically, they will move to the other side of the boat and cause it to tilt the other way.
That means everyone else will spec into stuff that kills armour...my GalAssault will not be pleased. |
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR
F.T.U.
667
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 16:36:00 -
[99] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
TL;DR
no personal attacks here.
for the skim that i did over one part of this, bob is very selfish.
all that the respec did was help other people, but because he didn't get something, he's upset. bob is very immature.
Tell me, how exactly DOES a biscuit gain Valor?
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TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR
F.T.U.
667
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Posted - 2013.11.22 16:38:00 -
[100] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:I'm against a respec cause everyone is going to sepc into Gal Logi and ScR. Basically, they will move to the other side of the boat and cause it to tilt the other way.
That means everyone else will spec into stuff that kills armour...my GalAssault will not be pleased.
don't you get it. no they won't. because there might be an increase in gallente logis, people are ruining the game for the people who don't stand a chance to the gallente logis already here.
Tell me, how exactly DOES a biscuit gain Valor?
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
61
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 16:45:00 -
[101] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
And then we have Charlie... He likes the Amarr and would not stoop to debasing himself to use a Minmatar heretic's weapon, but there is no heavy weapon to go with his heavy Amarr suit. So he skills into Forge Gun or HMG, but now they are saying that the Forge is Caldari and the HMG is Minmatar. What can he do? He wants his points back to skill them into the holy and blessed Amarr tools of destruction! (Similarly for people wanting to stick with Minmatar stuff instead of Galente with the AR vs. Combat Rifle stuff.)
Oh and here's another thread to discuss respec for AUR as an option:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118583&find=unread |
pdiddy anfama
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
81
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 16:47:00 -
[102] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
Very well put indeed. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1231
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 16:48:00 -
[103] - Quote
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. TL;DR no personal attacks here. for the skim that i did over one part of this, bob is very selfish. all that the respec did was help other people, but because he didn't get something, he's upset. bob is very immature.
I'm so sorry that biscuits are not smart enough to read a small passage of text. You shouldn't even bother to comment if you won't read, you'll make yourself look like a fool.
Look at this from Bob's point of view. Maybe I should glitz it up a bit.
Bob did nothing wrong. He did everything well, didn't have a single regret. Alex feels like he screwed up. God decides to 'fix' Alex with a huge miracle, but completely ignores Bob, who is right there. Bob doesn't get a get-out-of-screwup free card. Bob doesn't need one. Alex did, but Alex felt he needed one.
See what I mean yet? No one NEEDS a respec. NO ONE. The Alex players only WANT one, but are projecting their want on everyone as if it were a need. If CCP caves and gives the Alex players this boon, they get what they've always wanted, a hugely unlikely gift from the gods of New Eden. Bob gets NOTHING. Bob isn't immature, the very nature of the universe bent over backwards to satisfy Alex, but told Bob to screw off? Get it now?
Shields as Weapons
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1231
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Posted - 2013.11.22 16:50:00 -
[104] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. And then we have Charlie... He likes the Amarr and would not stoop to debasing himself to use a Minmatar heretic's weapon, but there is no heavy weapon to go with his heavy Amarr suit. So he skills into Forge Gun or HMG, but now they are saying that the Forge is Caldari and the HMG is Minmatar. What can he do? He wants his points back to skill them into the holy and blessed Amarr tools of destruction! (Similarly for people wanting to stick with Minmatar stuff instead of Galente with the AR vs. Combat Rifle stuff.) Oh and here's another thread to discuss respec for AUR as an option: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118583&find=unread
Having points in those things doesn't hurt you. Also, the HMG and FG are pretty obvious who they belong to. A person with only cursory knowledge of new Eden would be able to tell :p
Shields as Weapons
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Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
2
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Posted - 2013.11.22 17:39:00 -
[105] - Quote
So let me get this straight, Bob is pissed because Alex now knows what he wants to skill into and has learned and improved his play style? IMO Bob should be happy that Alex became a competent player, not spite him. I'm in favor of ONE repsec for all players until we get proper testing facilities, because as it stands now the only way to know what you're getting into (as a new player) is to skill into it and use it on the battlefield. Those who don't want respects lose nothing, those FOTM chasers get locked and those with new found knowledge become more stable.
Tl;Dr
One (optional) respect for all until we get proper equipment test facilities.
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
919
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 17:51:00 -
[106] - Quote
CRAZYHORSE ONE EIGHT wrote:His name is Robert Paulson .... His name is Robert Paulson .... His name is Robert Paulson ....
in death a member of project mayhem has a name. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
919
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 17:52:00 -
[107] - Quote
I don't care if they give a mandatory respec after 2 million skillpoints or something, but all you guys asking for respecs when you have 10 million sp is silly. |
Kahn Zo
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
107
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 17:59:00 -
[108] - Quote
Athrak Kinz wrote:So let me get this straight, Bob is pissed because Alex now knows what he wants to skill into and has learned and improved his play style? IMO Bob should be happy that Alex became a competent player, not spite him. I'm in favor of ONE repsec for all players until we get proper testing facilities, because as it stands now the only way to know what you're getting into (as a new player) is to skill into it and use it on the battlefield. Those who don't want respects lose nothing, those FOTM chasers get locked and those with new found knowledge become more stable.
Tl;Dr
One (optional) respect for all until we get proper equipment test facilities.
That is what "Bob' is worried about.
Bobberry~ one who negates a respec for all for selfish reasons.
Pure Gallente
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
922
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 18:14:00 -
[109] - Quote
Kahn Zo wrote:Athrak Kinz wrote:So let me get this straight, Bob is pissed because Alex now knows what he wants to skill into and has learned and improved his play style? IMO Bob should be happy that Alex became a competent player, not spite him. I'm in favor of ONE repsec for all players until we get proper testing facilities, because as it stands now the only way to know what you're getting into (as a new player) is to skill into it and use it on the battlefield. Those who don't want respects lose nothing, those FOTM chasers get locked and those with new found knowledge become more stable.
Tl;Dr
One (optional) respect for all until we get proper equipment test facilities.
That is what "Bob' is worried about. Bobberry~ one who negates a respec for all for selfish reasons.
and life doesn't have a respec button for those same 'selfish' reasons I suppose?
go play cod. I hear they give respecs. |
Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 18:24:00 -
[110] - Quote
low genius wrote:Kahn Zo wrote:Athrak Kinz wrote:So let me get this straight, Bob is pissed because Alex now knows what he wants to skill into and has learned and improved his play style? IMO Bob should be happy that Alex became a competent player, not spite him. I'm in favor of ONE repsec for all players until we get proper testing facilities, because as it stands now the only way to know what you're getting into (as a new player) is to skill into it and use it on the battlefield. Those who don't want respects lose nothing, those FOTM chasers get locked and those with new found knowledge become more stable.
Tl;Dr
One (optional) respect for all until we get proper equipment test facilities.
That is what "Bob' is worried about. Bobberry~ one who negates a respec for all for selfish reasons. and life doesn't have a respec button for those same 'selfish' reasons I suppose? go play cod. I hear they give respecs.
Well if this is real life then I'm taken aback, I thought this was a game. Are you going to argue that life is a game now? I suppose "low genius" is an apt name for you. Let's hear it, why don't you want a respect? Validate yourself. |
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1236
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 18:30:00 -
[111] - Quote
Athrak Kinz wrote:low genius wrote:Kahn Zo wrote:Athrak Kinz wrote:So let me get this straight, Bob is pissed because Alex now knows what he wants to skill into and has learned and improved his play style? IMO Bob should be happy that Alex became a competent player, not spite him. I'm in favor of ONE repsec for all players until we get proper testing facilities, because as it stands now the only way to know what you're getting into (as a new player) is to skill into it and use it on the battlefield. Those who don't want respects lose nothing, those FOTM chasers get locked and those with new found knowledge become more stable.
Tl;Dr
One (optional) respect for all until we get proper equipment test facilities.
That is what "Bob' is worried about. Bobberry~ one who negates a respec for all for selfish reasons. and life doesn't have a respec button for those same 'selfish' reasons I suppose? go play cod. I hear they give respecs. Well if this is real life then I'm taken aback, I thought this was a game. Are you going to argue that life is a game now? I suppose "low genius" is an apt name for you. Let's hear it, why don't you want a respect? Validate yourself.
Aaaaaaaaaaaand personal attacks, aren't we all just having fun.
Bob isn't worried about Alex. He is upset that what he has done has amounted to nothing because CCP, in this scenario, let Alex off the hook. Furthermore, because Bob doesn't need a respec, what should be a momentous occasion the likes of which no-one will ever see again is, to him, just a mild irritation to put his points back where they were.
Bobs get nothing, so why should they support Alexs trying to poke CCP until they give in? Why should Alexs get something special for screwing up? Why should Alex not just buck up and start putting SP in better investments? It's what Bob does. Lvl I is very easy to get.
Shields as Weapons
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
1752
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Posted - 2013.11.22 18:37:00 -
[112] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Athrak Kinz wrote:low genius wrote:Kahn Zo wrote:Athrak Kinz wrote:So let me get this straight, Bob is pissed because Alex now knows what he wants to skill into and has learned and improved his play style? IMO Bob should be happy that Alex became a competent player, not spite him. I'm in favor of ONE repsec for all players until we get proper testing facilities, because as it stands now the only way to know what you're getting into (as a new player) is to skill into it and use it on the battlefield. Those who don't want respects lose nothing, those FOTM chasers get locked and those with new found knowledge become more stable.
Tl;Dr
One (optional) respect for all until we get proper equipment test facilities.
That is what "Bob' is worried about. Bobberry~ one who negates a respec for all for selfish reasons. and life doesn't have a respec button for those same 'selfish' reasons I suppose? go play cod. I hear they give respecs. Well if this is real life then I'm taken aback, I thought this was a game. Are you going to argue that life is a game now? I suppose "low genius" is an apt name for you. Let's hear it, why don't you want a respect? Validate yourself. Aaaaaaaaaaaand personal attacks, aren't we all just having fun. Bob isn't worried about Alex. He is upset that what he has done has amounted to nothing because CCP, in this scenario, let Alex off the hook. Furthermore, because Bob doesn't need a respec, what should be a momentous occasion the likes of which no-one will ever see again is, to him, just a mild irritation to put his points back where they were. Bobs get nothing, so why should they support Alexs trying to poke CCP until they give in? Why should Alexs get something special for screwing up? Why should Alex not just buck up and start putting SP in better investments? It's what Bob does. Lvl I is very easy to get.
Im Bob
Bob has planned for the vehicle tree and even saved up for the pilots suits which still dont exist
CCP has now extended the vehicle tree by a factor of 3
The SP i have into vehicles now will not cover what i have now in 1.7
I would have had to save my 10+mil SP for over 6months before CCP even released anything new for a vehicle, instead they are taking away things and changing it
In that time i chose to spend some SP into infantry because vehicle changes were not coming for a long time, now CCP extended the amount of SP needed to cover vehicles by a factor of 3 and my current SP in vehicles cannot cover it
So here is me Bob who made choices, specced out all vehicles and could go no further is now being punished because CCP extended the amount of SP needed by a factor of 3 so i need all available SP to get to where i am now in 1.7
Either that or i go full tryhard infantry and slap your **** around for the next 10years in several proto suits
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Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 18:47:00 -
[113] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Athrak Kinz wrote:low genius wrote:Kahn Zo wrote:Athrak Kinz wrote:So let me get this straight, Bob is pissed because Alex now knows what he wants to skill into and has learned and improved his play style? IMO Bob should be happy that Alex became a competent player, not spite him. I'm in favor of ONE repsec for all players until we get proper testing facilities, because as it stands now the only way to know what you're getting into (as a new player) is to skill into it and use it on the battlefield. Those who don't want respects lose nothing, those FOTM chasers get locked and those with new found knowledge become more stable.
Tl;Dr
One (optional) respect for all until we get proper equipment test facilities.
That is what "Bob' is worried about. Bobberry~ one who negates a respec for all for selfish reasons. and life doesn't have a respec button for those same 'selfish' reasons I suppose? go play cod. I hear they give respecs. Well if this is real life then I'm taken aback, I thought this was a game. Are you going to argue that life is a game now? I suppose "low genius" is an apt name for you. Let's hear it, why don't you want a respect? Validate yourself. Aaaaaaaaaaaand personal attacks, aren't we all just having fun. Bob isn't worried about Alex. He is upset that what he has done has amounted to nothing because CCP, in this scenario, let Alex off the hook. Furthermore, because Bob doesn't need a respec, what should be a momentous occasion the likes of which no-one will ever see again is, to him, just a mild irritation to put his points back where they were. Bobs get nothing, so why should they support Alexs trying to poke CCP until they give in? Why should Alexs get something special for screwing up? Why should Alex not just buck up and start putting SP in better investments? It's what Bob does. Lvl I is very easy to get.
Respecs are a dual benefit for the game, because Alex can re-align himself and become a better team mate to support Bob. I see respects as a chance to refine newberries who have made mistakes. Bobs shouldn't want for anything because they receive the best thing, a better team. I don't need a respec, but I feel for those that do.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
1992
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 18:56:00 -
[114] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
I'll never understand Bob's line of thinking here. We are basically still playing a beta. I would assume that most people that are still playing the game want to see it succeed.
It will be 7 months from the initial release of the game by the time all racial variants of rifles will be released. I already have over 10 million SP invested into weapons. I guess it won't be that big of a deal for me to wait a month or so to skill into the new weapons, but why should we??
This new content is content that should have been available on 5/14, just as the suits should have been.
If they were adding the a tier II special dropsuit or something I could understand. I would be screaming that respecs aren't needed.
What we've all be doing since 5/14 is beta testing. I'm not sure why it's so hard for some people to comprehend that.
Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
1993
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 19:04:00 -
[115] - Quote
And just to add to my point above.
The FOTM chasers are actually doing the game a favor. They highlight the OPness or the shortcomings of items rather quickly.
Other than holding on to the ideals from Eve I still can't wrap my head around the anti-respec mindset.
I do believe that a lot of vets are worried that all these randoms might get their **** together if their SP were allocated properly.
Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
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Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 19:18:00 -
[116] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. I'll never understand Bob's line of thinking here. We are basically still playing a beta. I would assume that most people that are still playing the game want to see it succeed. It will be 7 months from the initial release of the game by the time all racial variants of rifles will be released. I already have over 10 million SP invested into weapons. I guess it won't be that big of a deal for me to wait a month or so to skill into the new weapons, but why should I have to?? This new content is content that should have been available on 5/14, just as the suits should have been. If they were adding the a tier II special dropsuit or something I could understand. I would be screaming that respecs aren't needed. What we've all be doing since 5/14 is beta testing. I'm not sure why it's so hard for some people to comprehend that.
Valid points. New features are introduced, things break, RACIAL EQUALITY has yet to be established. For example: Alex wants to be a scout, he only had 2 options so he invested into a proto min scout and the skills and weapons that fit that play style. A couple months later the Caldari scout is released, Alex much prefers the Caldari style but when he started the Cal scout DID NOT EXIST. Is this fair to him? Is it fair to Bob who wanted Amarr dropships but had to settle?
Current skills and specs are SP sinks to those that can't have their preferred fits as they'll have to spend tremendous SP to get into the new offerings while leaving their current MO in the Dust.
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1236
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 19:23:00 -
[117] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:And just to add to my point above.
The FOTM chasers are actually doing the game a favor. They highlight the OPness or the shortcomings of items rather quickly.
Other than holding on to the ideals from Eve I still can't wrap my head around the anti-respec mindset.
I do believe that a lot of vets are worried that all these randoms might get their **** together if their SP were allocated properly.
Please cease that easily refuted point. The vets aren't scared of the newbies. If anything, the newbies should be scared that the vets could respec all 10-40 million SP. The anti-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. I specced into, let's say Laser Rifle I. I can still spec into ARs, ScRs, SLs, ANYTHING really. That's the point of the game. You can spec into anything given enough time investment. If you let people respec every few months it cuts down both the interest of the new and the repercussions of the permanent. For a personal example, I have enough SP saved up to proto both the new guns being added in 1.7. I chose to save instead of spend, which hurt me in the short term. I could proto them out immediately, but that would be a very Alex thing to do. I could also just put a single level into both and tinker with them. It doesn't cost much and I can get that back from a few quick fights. Then I can pour the banked SP into whichever I end ep liking, if either.
But what if we get a respec? Not only will that hurt me, because I chose to bank SP, it also kills any permanence of choice. Why not throw this to level V, enough people will be whining for another respec in a month to get me out of it. Why not put all my points into a single niche, I'm just a respec away from getting a weapon in another category. Why shouldn't I pound all my SP into the new thing, I'll get it back in a month. Why can't I just try a new role every few months until the whole game's intrigue is torn away? I could just do it the way the game intended and unlock everything over time, but why should I when they will always cave for a respec?
Shields as Weapons
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Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
1236
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Posted - 2013.11.22 19:25:00 -
[118] - Quote
Athrak Kinz wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. I'll never understand Bob's line of thinking here. We are basically still playing a beta. I would assume that most people that are still playing the game want to see it succeed. It will be 7 months from the initial release of the game by the time all racial variants of rifles will be released. I already have over 10 million SP invested into weapons. I guess it won't be that big of a deal for me to wait a month or so to skill into the new weapons, but why should I have to?? This new content is content that should have been available on 5/14, just as the suits should have been. If they were adding the a tier II special dropsuit or something I could understand. I would be screaming that respecs aren't needed. What we've all be doing since 5/14 is beta testing. I'm not sure why it's so hard for some people to comprehend that. Valid points. New features are introduced, things break, RACIAL EQUALITY has yet to be established. For example: Alex wants to be a scout, he only had 2 options so he invested into a proto min scout and the skills and weapons that fit that play style. A couple months later the Caldari scout is released, Alex much prefers the Caldari style but when he started the Cal scout DID NOT EXIST. Is this fair to him? Is it fair to Bob who wanted Amarr dropships but had to settle? Current skills and specs are SP sinks to those that can't have their preferred fits as they'll have to spend tremendous SP to get into the new offerings while leaving their current MO in the Dust.
Of course it's fair, you're acting like this feature was not available to him and him alone. Everyone has to start from the bottom when it comes out. If we just let people skip all the way to the top we won't be able to test the lower tiers, nor will we be able to get a feel for the growth of the class. Everyone starts at 0, so everyone has it fair.
Shields as Weapons
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Your Absolut End
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
214
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 19:26:00 -
[119] - Quote
Respec=Cal/Gal AR-Logis everywhere
Variety yay, variety :D
another one bites the Dust...
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
553
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 19:40:00 -
[120] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
except bob used to be called alex, he joined in beta and played about with everything. specced willy nilly and then a respec came where he piled all his sp into his fav playstyle. meanwhile new bob who specced wisely making all his points count got nerfed rendering all his investment and planning worthless
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
157
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Posted - 2013.11.22 19:40:00 -
[121] - Quote
Infamous Erich wrote:But what does bob do when he has everything perfect then they do a massive nerf and make the class worthless start over again? all that time spent on boosters to gain more sp was wasted in a sense besides from core skills and in a game where sp is everything and takes a long time to get the amount needed something needs to be done.
I think this is a core problem, there are no core skills. All core skills are tied into the weapons skill tree. I cant do general improvements to all of my weapons, just one specific one. In EVE, we have different certificates we can get once certain skills are trained up. A lot of these are core skills, such as core capacitor, core fitting skills, core shield skills, core turret skills, core missile skills, etc.
Let's isolate core turret skills for this to be clearer. There is optimal range to skill into, falloff range (effective range analgram) damage increase, tracking (ability to hit fast things), and another that I cant remember. But the point is clear, if I train all these core turret skills to 5, then I will get maximum effectiveness out of any turret I use, regardless if its hybrid, projectile, or laser.
Lets say I get core skills to 5, and then lasers to 5. Lasers get a nerf, I don't like them anymore, I want to fly a ship that gets bonuses to hybrids, whatever reason you can think of. All I have to do is train hybrid turret to 5, and I'm back being just as effective as i was with lasers 5.
In Dust, If I want to do something else, I have to start ALL OVER AGAIN to use another weapon. I have to get the base skill to 5, rapid reload to 5, fitting to 5, sharpshooter to 5, max ammo to 5, all over again. If we take these skills, like fitting, reload speed, max ammo, and sharpshooter, perhaps even proficiency (the damage modifier skill) and made them apply to all weapons, then if we want to change playstyles, all we have to do is skill into the base skill for a new weapon, and bam, we're gravy. I can hear arguments about how this would make people spec into the FOTM, but to be honest, once you get core skills up, you really can make anything viable, even at the standard level. Plus it would remove a LOT of the grind to get a new weapon, because youd have those core skills that you dont have to worry about wasting sp on again.
Not sure if I got the idea across, but hopefully its understandable. |
Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
4
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Posted - 2013.11.22 19:44:00 -
[122] - Quote
There's a difference between starting at 0 with all options open and starting at 0 when half the proposed options don't exist. Another example would be someone with $1000 looking for a car, at that time they have 2 choices. 6 months later after investing money into this car someone tells him that if he would have waited he would of had 4 unique choices instead of 2. Needless to say he feels cheated because all of his assets were invested before the other choices were added.
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Awry Barux
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
374
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Posted - 2013.11.22 19:47:00 -
[123] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:And just to add to my point above.
The FOTM chasers are actually doing the game a favor. They highlight the OPness or the shortcomings of items rather quickly.
Other than holding on to the ideals from Eve I still can't wrap my head around the anti-respec mindset.
I do believe that a lot of vets are worried that all these randoms might get their **** together if their SP were allocated properly. Please cease that easily refuted point. The vets aren't scared of the newbies. If anything, the newbies should be scared that the vets could respec all 10-40 million SP. The anti-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. I specced into, let's say Laser Rifle I. I can still spec into ARs, ScRs, SLs, ANYTHING really. That's the point of the game. You can spec into anything given enough time investment. If you let people respec every few months it cuts down both the interest of the new and the repercussions of the permanent. For a personal example, I have enough SP saved up to proto both the new guns being added in 1.7. I chose to save instead of spend, which hurt me in the short term. I could proto them out immediately, but that would be a very Alex thing to do. I could also just put a single level into both and tinker with them. It doesn't cost much and I can get that back from a few quick fights. Then I can pour the banked SP into whichever I end ep liking, if either. But what if we get a respec? Not only will that hurt me, because I chose to bank SP, it also kills any permanence of choice. Why not throw this to level V, enough people will be whining for another respec in a month to get me out of it. Why not put all my points into a single niche, I'm just a respec away from getting a weapon in another category. Why shouldn't I pound all my SP into the new thing, I'll get it back in a month. Why can't I just try a new role every few months until the whole game's intrigue is torn away? I could just do it the way the game intended and unlock everything over time, but why should I when they will always cave for a respec?
Until all racial content is released and the balance is ironed out, the "permanence" of choices is meaningless. If you don't see why that's the case, I don't think I'll be able to explain it to you.
For you, a vet, saving your SP is not even mildly the same as a post-release player saving their SP, and for you to belittle low-SP players for not saving their SP is ridiculous. You saving your SP only hurts your horizontal spread- you lose versatility, but you already have at least one, if not multiple, fully proto-d roles.
To players with <12 million SP, who have spent carefully towards a single specialized role, saving SP directly hurts their ability to perform their role in the short term, and in Dust the "short term" means multiple months. Therefore, when new content comes out, it's the veteran players who can freely spec into the new content at no real cost to themselves over the previous months. Respecs when a significant amount of new content is added would negate this issue.
If you really want a cookie for not wanting/needing a respec, fine- let's have anyone who doesn't take a respec receive 10000 black eagles or 100k free SP or 100 million ISK or whatever would placate you. For the majority of the player base, a respec has far more positives than negatives. |
Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
140
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Posted - 2013.11.22 19:55:00 -
[124] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
No thats pretty stupid....
I mean why we should reward people for playing only one playstyle ?
That's a non-sense when we see than since the last respec a lot of weapons was released tons of balance and others *****.
But i agree we can't just "respec" everyone like that if nothing "special" is released like they want when they want (New heavy / scout frames).
Should be maximum one time every 3 months. (3 months is pretty good and avoid FOTM)
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CLONE117
planetary retaliation organisation
488
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Posted - 2013.11.22 20:24:00 -
[125] - Quote
if sp prices of an skill are raised.i feel a refund from that skill and all skills changed by it wouldnt be as problematic.
if its lowered.
partial refund of spent sp of said skill gets added back to your unallocated.
now.
this is new eden. your choices are supposed to matter. getting respecs when ever you want is dumb as far as im concerned.
lets say a certain player deliberately invested tons of sp into something that got nerfed simply because it was op.
the skill costs did not change at all or anything like that.
that player should be forced to live with the consequences as i say that should be the punishment.
there might not be a mlt variant of every single item in game. but it doesnt cost much to unlock the std versions of majority of the stuff we have access to currently.
we can save up our sp for later variants and unlock them when they are released.
but the main reason behind respecs isnt to punish the player who spent it out of stupidity. its too punish the players who only specced into a single item. an item that was initially said to have been op before its nerf.
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100% chance of trolls is to be expected. |
Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
216
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Posted - 2013.11.22 20:28:00 -
[126] - Quote
First off, well put OP. You started a discussion that for the most part isn't a name calling fest. And typically that's what this issue turns into.
What a lot of you are missing, and it's a big one:
BOB GOT A RESPEC
Yet Bob is crying for an end to all respecs. At the end of beta, all players were given a respec.
>So Bob was allowed to make mistakes, then correct said mistakes.
>Bob was able to try out all the different items.
>Bob started the offical relase with a huge advantage.
This of course is assuming Bob is a VET, and a VET comes from beta. I would figure most of the people against respecs fall into this catagory, but understand that there are more than likely others out there that are against respec and don't fall under this vet catagory.
I didn't play much during beta, between the bugs, and insta killing laser rifles, I decided on waiting until official release. My char had gained about 4 mil in sp tho. And guess what I did.
I spent a little in assault rifles and a assault suit, played a bit with it, and found I didn't like it. So I tried the different weapons, standard version. My games were terrible, and I wanted so badly to be better. So I got a advanced weapon, and then another, and before I knew it, points were all over the place.
One thing to note, there are huge differences between standard weapons and proto weapons. But everyone knows that, but I myself did not realize this when I started. It took a good solid month of playing to get an idea of these differences. Longer still to figure out the skill tree, and really understand how to begin forming a good char. By then though I found there were no more respecs and was very upset.
I feel for the new guys, I really do. Dust really isn't big on player retention. Newbs, are slaughtered, relentlessly. Then for those that decide to stick it out, they are punished.
For the Bobs out there saying that somehow you would be rewarding new players, I point to that shiny respec you yourself got.
Afraid of FOTM chasers? So what, there will always be FOTM chasers. Plus, one of these days, CCP will have things much closer in terms of balance. And by then, the vets will have a ton of SP.
Those that say grinding out SP is nothing, It is. Imagine it from the newbies point, as you are slaughtered over and over, maybe earning 150 WP a match. It's going to be a looong while before you are proto ready. Or even me, the casual gamer, who works most of the day, everyday, and only has a hour or 2 for the game. 6 months later and I'm sitting on 11 mil.
I fail to see how respecs, hurt people, or the game. The only things that come to mind are positive:
Player retention(Be nice if people could play with the SP system and LEARN IT before you punish them)
Change of pace(sometimes I tire of running the same tanks, over and over)
Testing ( when ccp makes balance changes, more of the community can try those changes out, and provide feedback.)
Just to name a few. Now I did not mention negatives to a respec, so please lemme know what your negatives to respecs are.
Remember "vets" you did get a respec, and didn't have to LIVE with your choices.
And lets keep in mind, this is a SHOOTER, not a SANDBOX MMO.
Nuff Said
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
1996
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Posted - 2013.11.22 20:34:00 -
[127] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:And just to add to my point above.
The FOTM chasers are actually doing the game a favor. They highlight the OPness or the shortcomings of items rather quickly.
Other than holding on to the ideals from Eve I still can't wrap my head around the anti-respec mindset.
I do believe that a lot of vets are worried that all these randoms might get their **** together if their SP were allocated properly. Please cease that easily refuted point. The vets aren't scared of the newbies. If anything, the newbies should be scared that the vets could respec all 10-40 million SP. The anti-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. I specced into, let's say Laser Rifle I. I can still spec into ARs, ScRs, SLs, ANYTHING really. That's the point of the game. You can spec into anything given enough time investment. If you let people respec every few months it cuts down both the interest of the new and the repercussions of the permanent. For a personal example, I have enough SP saved up to proto both the new guns being added in 1.7. I chose to save instead of spend, which hurt me in the short term. I could proto them out immediately, but that would be a very Alex thing to do. I could also just put a single level into both and tinker with them. It doesn't cost much and I can get that back from a few quick fights. Then I can pour the banked SP into whichever I end ep liking, if either. But what if we get a respec? Not only will that hurt me, because I chose to bank SP, it also kills any permanence of choice. Why not throw this to level V, enough people will be whining for another respec in a month to get me out of it. Why not put all my points into a single niche, I'm just a respec away from getting a weapon in another category. Why shouldn't I pound all my SP into the new thing, I'll get it back in a month. Why can't I just try a new role every few months until the whole game's intrigue is torn away? I could just do it the way the game intended and unlock everything over time, but why should I when they will always cave for a respec?
This is easily refuted as well.
I have just under 31 mil SP. A respec won't make me more powerful. I have 2 proto suits and 6 weapons at the proto level, all equipment to 5 as well as grenades to 5. The only thing I've got remaining are the passive scanning skills, hacking, and armor reps. I've got about 3.5 mil SP left to finish off some other suits and some weapon specialization stuff.
In other words a respec won't do much for me.
And like others have said, the choices aren't all available yet and won't be even after 1.7. And we aren't talking added content, we are talking about the racial variants that have yet to be released. Why is that so hard to fathom?
I would TOTALLY agree with your line of thinking if all the racial content was available. That said, until there is a real tutorial and a "testing" ground I believe a respec should be available for new players after some SP milestone is reached.
Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
218
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Posted - 2013.11.22 20:36:00 -
[128] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:And just to add to my point above.
The FOTM chasers are actually doing the game a favor. They highlight the OPness or the shortcomings of items rather quickly.
Other than holding on to the ideals from Eve I still can't wrap my head around the anti-respec mindset.
I do believe that a lot of vets are worried that all these randoms might get their **** together if their SP were allocated properly. Please cease that easily refuted point. The vets aren't scared of the newbies. If anything, the newbies should be scared that the vets could respec all 10-40 million SP. The anti-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. I specced into, let's say Laser Rifle I. I can still spec into ARs, ScRs, SLs, ANYTHING really. That's the point of the game. You can spec into anything given enough time investment. If you let people respec every few months it cuts down both the interest of the new and the repercussions of the permanent. For a personal example, I have enough SP saved up to proto both the new guns being added in 1.7. I chose to save instead of spend, which hurt me in the short term. I could proto them out immediately, but that would be a very Alex thing to do. I could also just put a single level into both and tinker with them. It doesn't cost much and I can get that back from a few quick fights. Then I can pour the banked SP into whichever I end ep liking, if either. But what if we get a respec? Not only will that hurt me, because I chose to bank SP, it also kills any permanence of choice. Why not throw this to level V, enough people will be whining for another respec in a month to get me out of it. Why not put all my points into a single niche, I'm just a respec away from getting a weapon in another category. Why shouldn't I pound all my SP into the new thing, I'll get it back in a month. Why can't I just try a new role every few months until the whole game's intrigue is torn away? I could just do it the way the game intended and unlock everything over time, but why should I when they will always cave for a respec? Until all racial content is released and the balance is ironed out, the "permanence" of choices is meaningless. If you don't see why that's the case, I don't think I'll be able to explain it to you. The pro-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. For you, a vet, saving your SP is not even mildly the same as a post-release player saving their SP, and for you to belittle low-SP players for not saving their SP is ridiculous. You saving your SP only hurts your horizontal spread- you lose versatility, but you already have at least one, if not multiple, fully proto-d roles. To players with <12 million SP, who have spent carefully towards a single specialized role, saving SP directly hurts their ability to perform their role in the short term, and in Dust the "short term" means multiple months. Therefore, when new content comes out, it's the veteran players who can freely spec into the new content at no real cost to themselves over the previous months. Respecs when a significant amount of new content is added would negate this issue. edit: I agree that allowing frequent respecs, or generally respecs not related to new content being introduced, would be detrimental to the game, but that's not at all the case here. If you really want a cookie for not wanting/needing a respec, fine- let's have anyone who doesn't take a respec receive 10000 black eagles or 100k free SP or 100 million ISK or whatever would placate you. For the majority of the player base, a respec has far more positives than negatives.
Well put, it's not a huge deal for someone with SP spent into a viable role, to save for another role or weapon. But for Alex, it is a matter of months.
Given they should not give out respecs every month, that would be crazy. What they should do:
3 respecs for a life time. And thats all you get.
Nuff Said
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TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR
F.T.U.
672
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Posted - 2013.11.23 03:59:00 -
[129] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. TL;DR no personal attacks here. for the skim that i did over one part of this, bob is very selfish. all that the respec did was help other people, but because he didn't get something, he's upset. bob is very immature. I'm so sorry that biscuits are not smart enough to read a small passage of text. You shouldn't even bother to comment if you won't read, you'll make yourself look like a fool. Look at this from Bob's point of view. Maybe I should glitz it up a bit. Bob did nothing wrong. He did everything well, didn't have a single regret. Alex feels like he screwed up. God decides to 'fix' Alex with a huge miracle, but completely ignores Bob, who is right there. Bob doesn't get a get-out-of-screwup free card. Bob doesn't need one. Alex did, but Alex felt he needed one. See what I mean yet? No one NEEDS a respec. NO ONE. The Alex players only WANT one, but are projecting their want on everyone as if it were a need. If CCP caves and gives the Alex players this boon, they get what they've always wanted, a hugely unlikely gift from the gods of New Eden. Bob gets NOTHING. Bob isn't immature, the very nature of the universe bent over backwards to satisfy Alex, but told Bob to screw off? Get it now?
what ever happened to no personal attacks? being too lazy read it and not being smart enough are two entirely different things.
i looked at it from bob's point of view. doesn't change that fact that he's a selfish little whiner who is jealous because "God gave someone else a miracle" and he didn't get one. he should be happy for the person who got a second chance, not wish no miracle at all upon him.
if you ask me, that's not a very foolish way of thinking.
Tell me, how exactly DOES a biscuit gain Valor?
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10539
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Posted - 2013.11.23 04:04:00 -
[130] - Quote
My current stance as to why I don't want respecs given out is may prove habit forming and consistently demanded by the community every time 'something' changes.
This will also hurt future sales if the 'expectancy' is set should these ever get sold in the future. Because if they are handed out like free candy, people are not going to like buying 'free candy' later on.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
745
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Posted - 2013.11.23 04:25:00 -
[131] - Quote
I am Jack's complete expectation of a respec.
If you don't think sniping is the greatest thing everGǪ I will fight you. That's no lie.
-GÇö Ron Burgundy paraphrased
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Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
6
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Posted - 2013.11.23 04:36:00 -
[132] - Quote
I knew I wasn't the only one that thought "Bob" was selfish and short sighted. But I see the CPM's point as well. I'm well aware that Dust is MEANT to be long term, but with all the short term changes and long term promises new players have no idea what they're getting into, even if they do have an inkling everything is still subject to change and reworking. I don't believe that any one person DESERVES a respec, just that they have the option should they need a fresh start. I make no excuses, but I missed my chance at a respec that wish I would of had. Hell for the sake of the new berries allow a respec until a certain amount of wp is earned, at least to improve the new player experience.
P.s.
I hate posting from a phone, please disregard any mistakes. |
CharCharOdell
1652
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Posted - 2013.11.23 04:58:00 -
[133] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely.
What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's.
GÖªOf course you wont admit Bob is Afraid of Alex. You are Bob. GÖªEven with his Poor SP decisions (which were NOT POOR AT THE TIME THEY WERE MADE, they got nerfed by Bob) Alex can still pound bob. GÖªI never Said Bob was good. I said Bob has an advantage over Alex. GÖªWho said Alex throwesd his SP about? Alex wanted to be a Nova Knife scout and an AV specialist. Both got Nerfed to the ground. This is not poor SP choices, not spending SP poorly, this is something inevitable that when it happns to BOB, ALex wont be there to support him. GÖªDevs are breaking their word because there are more Alex's than Bobs, and the Devs KNOW Alex's are rights.Bobs arent.Simple. Bolding everything you say is annoying. Fixed. I won't even bother with a point-by-point, most of your points are pure opinion and heavily biased. Bobs are not afraid of Alexs. Alexs feel persecuted and wish to turn that into a positive thing by thinking they are superior. You think you're better than a Bob. You are not. You are the same. Bob and Alex started the same, and had the same chances with the same points and same skills. Bob ended up doing better because he was careful. If Alex had simply been as careful, he would have been alot better off. Also, if your particular Alex decided to specialize into a SIDEARM and a NICHE PLAY-STYLE without putting points into the basics, he shot himself in the foot. He never thought about what he would do in a wide-open map, he never thought what he would do without expensive caskets to hunt. He. Never. Thought. Also, DEVs are not giving a full respec. Just a partial to vehicles because of major restructuring. Sensible and reasonable.
No, Bob ended up doing better because he did not spec nova knives, shotguns, heavy, av, flaylocks, etc. Bob put his points into logistics suits, mass drivers, and assault rifles while Alex specialized, as well, but allof his gear got nerfed which was out of his control. His entire playstyle is less effective than bob because of CCP's inability to balance their game.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
657
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Posted - 2013.11.23 05:06:00 -
[134] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:You don't know Jack.
He planned, tested, and found a playstyle that fit him. He played it, and enjoyed it. Then CCP came in, and ruined an entire playstyle. Jack's playstyle. Now he wants a respec.
Who told you about me?!
Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
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RA Drahcir
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
296
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Posted - 2013.11.23 05:57:00 -
[135] - Quote
Why are they doing a partial respec? What about tankers that specced into infantry as well? Don't you think they want to fully commit SP into the vehicle skill trees, or give up tanking and revert to ARs like everyone else? |
Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
131
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Posted - 2013.11.23 10:22:00 -
[136] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
OK, but there is also Charlie. Charlie has 10Mil SP's, all in Infantry. He wants to go into tanks after a respec. Why does he have to grind out those SP's, when David gets his SP's in vehicles back and can put them into infantry.
I am the Horseless Headsman.
Director and COO of We Who Walk Alone
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
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ELITE INQUISITOR
Eternal Beings
20
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Posted - 2013.11.23 11:57:00 -
[137] - Quote
Most of the people who don't want respecs are people who have been playing long enough that they probably have multiple proto suits and gear. Why would they want a respec? They already have what they want. Might as well keep others down who didn't know what or how they wanted to play. I digress
If you accept your limitations you go beyond them
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Chewie Parker
Black Phoenix Mercenaries
44
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Posted - 2013.11.23 13:01:00 -
[138] - Quote
i can be classed as a bob , i have all my 29mill sp carefully placed where it needs to be for my logi to be top notch (19.5mill in dropsuite upgrades , i have 1 weapon , the AR , i chose this weapon , almost a year ago , because it was the lightest weapon i could get my hands on , and i have maxed all its skills , now , if i had access to the combat rifle at the start it would have been first choice . this bob doesnt want a full respec , just my AR points back to reallocate in a weapon that is not too dissimilar to the one i use , i allready have my next 6 months of skill points carefully planned out , this dissruption will cause my a large headache ,
the part that im finding most annoying is that the Dev's have totally avoided commenting on this (as far as i've seen) . i have noted that a lot of the posts asking for clarification have been rants rather than asked in a decent manor . it would be really helpfull if a dev could kindly get involved in this conversation so that we can find out if there is a possibility of a refund for AR & and SCR . and if not they're reasons not to allow such a move. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
1756
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Posted - 2013.11.23 13:02:00 -
[139] - Quote
Im Bob
I planned for the vehicle tree, i worked it out how much SP it would take for me to spec it out, i planned ahead
Once i specced out my vehicle tree i started planning for the pilot suits, they never arrived but i managed to save up 8mil SP
No more vehicles were arriving and the vehicle patch was way off in the future, could have been a year maybe more so i spent my SP on a secondary role
Now CCP has changed the amount of SP needed to be a vehicle specialist by a factor of 3, the amount i have now will not cover what i need in 1.7
I need my SP out of infantry to be even close to what i can do now in 1.7
I planned ahead and finished the vehicle tree, now CCP has changed the SP amount so its more of a sink so i now need even more SP to spec out in the vehicle tree
I made my choices, i planned it out and finished the vehicle tree which made me competitve in PC, im happy with my SP in where they are, but between vehicles and infantry i want to go full vehicles and the amount of SP needed in 1.7 has gone up by a factor of 3
In 1.6 i had access to every mod and vehicle (not lolenforcers)
Now i need to put every SP i have into vehicles because they changed it all around and increased the amount needed |
CharCharOdell
1655
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:07:00 -
[140] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Im Bob
I planned for the vehicle tree, i worked it out how much SP it would take for me to spec it out, i planned ahead
Once i specced out my vehicle tree i started planning for the pilot suits, they never arrived but i managed to save up 8mil SP
No more vehicles were arriving and the vehicle patch was way off in the future, could have been a year maybe more so i spent my SP on a secondary role
Now CCP has changed the amount of SP needed to be a vehicle specialist by a factor of 3, the amount i have now will not cover what i need in 1.7
I need my SP out of infantry to be even close to what i can do now in 1.7
I planned ahead and finished the vehicle tree, now CCP has changed the SP amount so its more of a sink so i now need even more SP to spec out in the vehicle tree
I made my choices, i planned it out and finished the vehicle tree which made me competitve in PC, im happy with my SP in where they are, but between vehicles and infantry i want to go full vehicles and the amount of SP needed in 1.7 has gone up by a factor of 3
In 1.6 i had access to every mod and vehicle (not lolenforcers)
Now i need to put every SP i have into vehicles because they changed it all around and increased the amount needed
my point exactly. everyone gets a respec.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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CharCharOdell
1659
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:10:00 -
[141] - Quote
Luna Angelo wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. OK, but there is also Charlie. Charlie has 10Mil SP's, all in Infantry. He wants to go into tanks after a respec. Why does he have to grind out those SP's, when David gets his SP's in vehicles back and can put them into infantry.
again, perfectly said.
this partial respec screws everyone. pilots want to take infantry and put it in pilot skills. other pilots want to take their new free sp and spec full infantry. some infantry want to spec vehicles.
then heavies want more than 2 fitting choices.
AR and SR guys now have 2 more options they wouldm hqve chosen otherwise
scouts r missing 2 suits
a respec benefits everyone and it shouldhappen. 'permanence' doesnt matter if not all choices are available.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Chewie Parker
Black Phoenix Mercenaries
45
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Posted - 2013.11.23 21:27:00 -
[142] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:My current stance as to why I don't want respecs given out is may prove habit forming and consistently demanded by the community every time 'something' changes.
This will also hurt future sales if the 'expectancy' is set should these ever get sold in the future. Because if they are handed out like free candy, people are not going to like buying 'free candy' later on.
what's your stance on people being refunded the points that are in the AR & SCR , due to the fact that this branch of weapons has its full range of racial variants . |
ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
204
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Posted - 2013.11.23 21:59:00 -
[143] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Reasons For:
Allows new players a chance to restart.
Allows players a chance to try something new.
Brings in new players.
Brings back old players.
Gear was nerfed.
Unfinished racial line up.
Gives new players the ability to compete.
Reasons Against:
Creates fotm.
Creates the cycle of more respecs.
Choices matter.
Everyone starts the same and it should stay that way.
New gear is easy to get into.
It isn't fair to players who are just starting or hasn't started.
Gear wasn't nerfed, it was balanced.
You had the same choices we did.
New players don't know about respecs.
Only a few players will return because the line up is still unfinished.
Your whole explanation was very elaborate and of course with lots of valid points, SADLY this: ''Brings in new players.
Brings back old players.'' Is worth more than all the cons together.... |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
1998
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Posted - 2013.11.23 22:04:00 -
[144] - Quote
Seems to me to be pretty cut and dry.
Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
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Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
12
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Posted - 2013.11.23 22:34:00 -
[145] - Quote
Well this thread has done a 180-¦, I thought that intellectual people who wanted respecs didn't exist. I doubt we'll even get a partial, maybe a full respec by the time 2.0 drops. Until then, I'm just gonna keep kicking up Dust.
Full time Logi before it was cool.
GÿàProud GallenteanGÿà
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CharCharOdell
1660
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Posted - 2013.11.24 03:31:00 -
[146] - Quote
all FOTM and anything about content and SP aside, a respec would keep newplayers and bring back old players.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Michael Arck
Anubis Prime Syndicate
1869
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Posted - 2013.11.24 03:34:00 -
[147] - Quote
I never understood why some folks feel that they should be rewarded when others receive gifts. LOL must have been some spoiled siblings in the home. |
Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
64
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Posted - 2013.11.25 16:36:00 -
[148] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:My current stance as to why I don't want respecs given out is may prove habit forming and consistently demanded by the community every time 'something' changes.
This will also hurt future sales if the 'expectancy' is set should these ever get sold in the future. Because if they are handed out like free candy, people are not going to like buying 'free candy' later on.
I would totally agree with you *IF* CCP had put out a full game from the get go (meaning full racial variants for every suit category, weapon type, and vehicle type). But they haven't. They only have two races of vehicles. They have only two races of most of the dropsuits and only one for the heavy type (Amarr). And they have a scatter-shot smattering of the different race's versions of the sidearms, assault, long-range, and heavy weapons. And they admit to this! So to be a "competent" soldier on the battlefield you have to pick a suit from one race, a sidearm from another, a main weapon from yet another, a tank from another, a dropship from another, an LAV from something else...
There is currently no way to be racially conforming in this game! So when I go for faction warfare loyalty points what happens? Why bother? You are setting your own system up for failure! You are trying to encourage faction warfare on one hand while totally screwing those players with the other hand! This and only this is the only reason to warrant a full skill respec!
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