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Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
157
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Posted - 2013.11.22 19:40:00 -
[121] - Quote
Infamous Erich wrote:But what does bob do when he has everything perfect then they do a massive nerf and make the class worthless start over again? all that time spent on boosters to gain more sp was wasted in a sense besides from core skills and in a game where sp is everything and takes a long time to get the amount needed something needs to be done.
I think this is a core problem, there are no core skills. All core skills are tied into the weapons skill tree. I cant do general improvements to all of my weapons, just one specific one. In EVE, we have different certificates we can get once certain skills are trained up. A lot of these are core skills, such as core capacitor, core fitting skills, core shield skills, core turret skills, core missile skills, etc.
Let's isolate core turret skills for this to be clearer. There is optimal range to skill into, falloff range (effective range analgram) damage increase, tracking (ability to hit fast things), and another that I cant remember. But the point is clear, if I train all these core turret skills to 5, then I will get maximum effectiveness out of any turret I use, regardless if its hybrid, projectile, or laser.
Lets say I get core skills to 5, and then lasers to 5. Lasers get a nerf, I don't like them anymore, I want to fly a ship that gets bonuses to hybrids, whatever reason you can think of. All I have to do is train hybrid turret to 5, and I'm back being just as effective as i was with lasers 5.
In Dust, If I want to do something else, I have to start ALL OVER AGAIN to use another weapon. I have to get the base skill to 5, rapid reload to 5, fitting to 5, sharpshooter to 5, max ammo to 5, all over again. If we take these skills, like fitting, reload speed, max ammo, and sharpshooter, perhaps even proficiency (the damage modifier skill) and made them apply to all weapons, then if we want to change playstyles, all we have to do is skill into the base skill for a new weapon, and bam, we're gravy. I can hear arguments about how this would make people spec into the FOTM, but to be honest, once you get core skills up, you really can make anything viable, even at the standard level. Plus it would remove a LOT of the grind to get a new weapon, because youd have those core skills that you dont have to worry about wasting sp on again.
Not sure if I got the idea across, but hopefully its understandable. |
Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
4
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Posted - 2013.11.22 19:44:00 -
[122] - Quote
There's a difference between starting at 0 with all options open and starting at 0 when half the proposed options don't exist. Another example would be someone with $1000 looking for a car, at that time they have 2 choices. 6 months later after investing money into this car someone tells him that if he would have waited he would of had 4 unique choices instead of 2. Needless to say he feels cheated because all of his assets were invested before the other choices were added.
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Awry Barux
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
374
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Posted - 2013.11.22 19:47:00 -
[123] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:And just to add to my point above.
The FOTM chasers are actually doing the game a favor. They highlight the OPness or the shortcomings of items rather quickly.
Other than holding on to the ideals from Eve I still can't wrap my head around the anti-respec mindset.
I do believe that a lot of vets are worried that all these randoms might get their **** together if their SP were allocated properly. Please cease that easily refuted point. The vets aren't scared of the newbies. If anything, the newbies should be scared that the vets could respec all 10-40 million SP. The anti-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. I specced into, let's say Laser Rifle I. I can still spec into ARs, ScRs, SLs, ANYTHING really. That's the point of the game. You can spec into anything given enough time investment. If you let people respec every few months it cuts down both the interest of the new and the repercussions of the permanent. For a personal example, I have enough SP saved up to proto both the new guns being added in 1.7. I chose to save instead of spend, which hurt me in the short term. I could proto them out immediately, but that would be a very Alex thing to do. I could also just put a single level into both and tinker with them. It doesn't cost much and I can get that back from a few quick fights. Then I can pour the banked SP into whichever I end ep liking, if either. But what if we get a respec? Not only will that hurt me, because I chose to bank SP, it also kills any permanence of choice. Why not throw this to level V, enough people will be whining for another respec in a month to get me out of it. Why not put all my points into a single niche, I'm just a respec away from getting a weapon in another category. Why shouldn't I pound all my SP into the new thing, I'll get it back in a month. Why can't I just try a new role every few months until the whole game's intrigue is torn away? I could just do it the way the game intended and unlock everything over time, but why should I when they will always cave for a respec?
Until all racial content is released and the balance is ironed out, the "permanence" of choices is meaningless. If you don't see why that's the case, I don't think I'll be able to explain it to you.
For you, a vet, saving your SP is not even mildly the same as a post-release player saving their SP, and for you to belittle low-SP players for not saving their SP is ridiculous. You saving your SP only hurts your horizontal spread- you lose versatility, but you already have at least one, if not multiple, fully proto-d roles.
To players with <12 million SP, who have spent carefully towards a single specialized role, saving SP directly hurts their ability to perform their role in the short term, and in Dust the "short term" means multiple months. Therefore, when new content comes out, it's the veteran players who can freely spec into the new content at no real cost to themselves over the previous months. Respecs when a significant amount of new content is added would negate this issue.
If you really want a cookie for not wanting/needing a respec, fine- let's have anyone who doesn't take a respec receive 10000 black eagles or 100k free SP or 100 million ISK or whatever would placate you. For the majority of the player base, a respec has far more positives than negatives. |
Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
140
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Posted - 2013.11.22 19:55:00 -
[124] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
No thats pretty stupid....
I mean why we should reward people for playing only one playstyle ?
That's a non-sense when we see than since the last respec a lot of weapons was released tons of balance and others *****.
But i agree we can't just "respec" everyone like that if nothing "special" is released like they want when they want (New heavy / scout frames).
Should be maximum one time every 3 months. (3 months is pretty good and avoid FOTM)
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CLONE117
planetary retaliation organisation
488
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Posted - 2013.11.22 20:24:00 -
[125] - Quote
if sp prices of an skill are raised.i feel a refund from that skill and all skills changed by it wouldnt be as problematic.
if its lowered.
partial refund of spent sp of said skill gets added back to your unallocated.
now.
this is new eden. your choices are supposed to matter. getting respecs when ever you want is dumb as far as im concerned.
lets say a certain player deliberately invested tons of sp into something that got nerfed simply because it was op.
the skill costs did not change at all or anything like that.
that player should be forced to live with the consequences as i say that should be the punishment.
there might not be a mlt variant of every single item in game. but it doesnt cost much to unlock the std versions of majority of the stuff we have access to currently.
we can save up our sp for later variants and unlock them when they are released.
but the main reason behind respecs isnt to punish the player who spent it out of stupidity. its too punish the players who only specced into a single item. an item that was initially said to have been op before its nerf.
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100% chance of trolls is to be expected. |
Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
216
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Posted - 2013.11.22 20:28:00 -
[126] - Quote
First off, well put OP. You started a discussion that for the most part isn't a name calling fest. And typically that's what this issue turns into.
What a lot of you are missing, and it's a big one:
BOB GOT A RESPEC
Yet Bob is crying for an end to all respecs. At the end of beta, all players were given a respec.
>So Bob was allowed to make mistakes, then correct said mistakes.
>Bob was able to try out all the different items.
>Bob started the offical relase with a huge advantage.
This of course is assuming Bob is a VET, and a VET comes from beta. I would figure most of the people against respecs fall into this catagory, but understand that there are more than likely others out there that are against respec and don't fall under this vet catagory.
I didn't play much during beta, between the bugs, and insta killing laser rifles, I decided on waiting until official release. My char had gained about 4 mil in sp tho. And guess what I did.
I spent a little in assault rifles and a assault suit, played a bit with it, and found I didn't like it. So I tried the different weapons, standard version. My games were terrible, and I wanted so badly to be better. So I got a advanced weapon, and then another, and before I knew it, points were all over the place.
One thing to note, there are huge differences between standard weapons and proto weapons. But everyone knows that, but I myself did not realize this when I started. It took a good solid month of playing to get an idea of these differences. Longer still to figure out the skill tree, and really understand how to begin forming a good char. By then though I found there were no more respecs and was very upset.
I feel for the new guys, I really do. Dust really isn't big on player retention. Newbs, are slaughtered, relentlessly. Then for those that decide to stick it out, they are punished.
For the Bobs out there saying that somehow you would be rewarding new players, I point to that shiny respec you yourself got.
Afraid of FOTM chasers? So what, there will always be FOTM chasers. Plus, one of these days, CCP will have things much closer in terms of balance. And by then, the vets will have a ton of SP.
Those that say grinding out SP is nothing, It is. Imagine it from the newbies point, as you are slaughtered over and over, maybe earning 150 WP a match. It's going to be a looong while before you are proto ready. Or even me, the casual gamer, who works most of the day, everyday, and only has a hour or 2 for the game. 6 months later and I'm sitting on 11 mil.
I fail to see how respecs, hurt people, or the game. The only things that come to mind are positive:
Player retention(Be nice if people could play with the SP system and LEARN IT before you punish them)
Change of pace(sometimes I tire of running the same tanks, over and over)
Testing ( when ccp makes balance changes, more of the community can try those changes out, and provide feedback.)
Just to name a few. Now I did not mention negatives to a respec, so please lemme know what your negatives to respecs are.
Remember "vets" you did get a respec, and didn't have to LIVE with your choices.
And lets keep in mind, this is a SHOOTER, not a SANDBOX MMO.
Nuff Said
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
1996
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Posted - 2013.11.22 20:34:00 -
[127] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:And just to add to my point above.
The FOTM chasers are actually doing the game a favor. They highlight the OPness or the shortcomings of items rather quickly.
Other than holding on to the ideals from Eve I still can't wrap my head around the anti-respec mindset.
I do believe that a lot of vets are worried that all these randoms might get their **** together if their SP were allocated properly. Please cease that easily refuted point. The vets aren't scared of the newbies. If anything, the newbies should be scared that the vets could respec all 10-40 million SP. The anti-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. I specced into, let's say Laser Rifle I. I can still spec into ARs, ScRs, SLs, ANYTHING really. That's the point of the game. You can spec into anything given enough time investment. If you let people respec every few months it cuts down both the interest of the new and the repercussions of the permanent. For a personal example, I have enough SP saved up to proto both the new guns being added in 1.7. I chose to save instead of spend, which hurt me in the short term. I could proto them out immediately, but that would be a very Alex thing to do. I could also just put a single level into both and tinker with them. It doesn't cost much and I can get that back from a few quick fights. Then I can pour the banked SP into whichever I end ep liking, if either. But what if we get a respec? Not only will that hurt me, because I chose to bank SP, it also kills any permanence of choice. Why not throw this to level V, enough people will be whining for another respec in a month to get me out of it. Why not put all my points into a single niche, I'm just a respec away from getting a weapon in another category. Why shouldn't I pound all my SP into the new thing, I'll get it back in a month. Why can't I just try a new role every few months until the whole game's intrigue is torn away? I could just do it the way the game intended and unlock everything over time, but why should I when they will always cave for a respec?
This is easily refuted as well.
I have just under 31 mil SP. A respec won't make me more powerful. I have 2 proto suits and 6 weapons at the proto level, all equipment to 5 as well as grenades to 5. The only thing I've got remaining are the passive scanning skills, hacking, and armor reps. I've got about 3.5 mil SP left to finish off some other suits and some weapon specialization stuff.
In other words a respec won't do much for me.
And like others have said, the choices aren't all available yet and won't be even after 1.7. And we aren't talking added content, we are talking about the racial variants that have yet to be released. Why is that so hard to fathom?
I would TOTALLY agree with your line of thinking if all the racial content was available. That said, until there is a real tutorial and a "testing" ground I believe a respec should be available for new players after some SP milestone is reached.
Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
218
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Posted - 2013.11.22 20:36:00 -
[128] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:And just to add to my point above.
The FOTM chasers are actually doing the game a favor. They highlight the OPness or the shortcomings of items rather quickly.
Other than holding on to the ideals from Eve I still can't wrap my head around the anti-respec mindset.
I do believe that a lot of vets are worried that all these randoms might get their **** together if their SP were allocated properly. Please cease that easily refuted point. The vets aren't scared of the newbies. If anything, the newbies should be scared that the vets could respec all 10-40 million SP. The anti-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. I specced into, let's say Laser Rifle I. I can still spec into ARs, ScRs, SLs, ANYTHING really. That's the point of the game. You can spec into anything given enough time investment. If you let people respec every few months it cuts down both the interest of the new and the repercussions of the permanent. For a personal example, I have enough SP saved up to proto both the new guns being added in 1.7. I chose to save instead of spend, which hurt me in the short term. I could proto them out immediately, but that would be a very Alex thing to do. I could also just put a single level into both and tinker with them. It doesn't cost much and I can get that back from a few quick fights. Then I can pour the banked SP into whichever I end ep liking, if either. But what if we get a respec? Not only will that hurt me, because I chose to bank SP, it also kills any permanence of choice. Why not throw this to level V, enough people will be whining for another respec in a month to get me out of it. Why not put all my points into a single niche, I'm just a respec away from getting a weapon in another category. Why shouldn't I pound all my SP into the new thing, I'll get it back in a month. Why can't I just try a new role every few months until the whole game's intrigue is torn away? I could just do it the way the game intended and unlock everything over time, but why should I when they will always cave for a respec? Until all racial content is released and the balance is ironed out, the "permanence" of choices is meaningless. If you don't see why that's the case, I don't think I'll be able to explain it to you. The pro-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. For you, a vet, saving your SP is not even mildly the same as a post-release player saving their SP, and for you to belittle low-SP players for not saving their SP is ridiculous. You saving your SP only hurts your horizontal spread- you lose versatility, but you already have at least one, if not multiple, fully proto-d roles. To players with <12 million SP, who have spent carefully towards a single specialized role, saving SP directly hurts their ability to perform their role in the short term, and in Dust the "short term" means multiple months. Therefore, when new content comes out, it's the veteran players who can freely spec into the new content at no real cost to themselves over the previous months. Respecs when a significant amount of new content is added would negate this issue. edit: I agree that allowing frequent respecs, or generally respecs not related to new content being introduced, would be detrimental to the game, but that's not at all the case here. If you really want a cookie for not wanting/needing a respec, fine- let's have anyone who doesn't take a respec receive 10000 black eagles or 100k free SP or 100 million ISK or whatever would placate you. For the majority of the player base, a respec has far more positives than negatives.
Well put, it's not a huge deal for someone with SP spent into a viable role, to save for another role or weapon. But for Alex, it is a matter of months.
Given they should not give out respecs every month, that would be crazy. What they should do:
3 respecs for a life time. And thats all you get.
Nuff Said
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TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR
F.T.U.
672
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Posted - 2013.11.23 03:59:00 -
[129] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. TL;DR no personal attacks here. for the skim that i did over one part of this, bob is very selfish. all that the respec did was help other people, but because he didn't get something, he's upset. bob is very immature. I'm so sorry that biscuits are not smart enough to read a small passage of text. You shouldn't even bother to comment if you won't read, you'll make yourself look like a fool. Look at this from Bob's point of view. Maybe I should glitz it up a bit. Bob did nothing wrong. He did everything well, didn't have a single regret. Alex feels like he screwed up. God decides to 'fix' Alex with a huge miracle, but completely ignores Bob, who is right there. Bob doesn't get a get-out-of-screwup free card. Bob doesn't need one. Alex did, but Alex felt he needed one. See what I mean yet? No one NEEDS a respec. NO ONE. The Alex players only WANT one, but are projecting their want on everyone as if it were a need. If CCP caves and gives the Alex players this boon, they get what they've always wanted, a hugely unlikely gift from the gods of New Eden. Bob gets NOTHING. Bob isn't immature, the very nature of the universe bent over backwards to satisfy Alex, but told Bob to screw off? Get it now?
what ever happened to no personal attacks? being too lazy read it and not being smart enough are two entirely different things.
i looked at it from bob's point of view. doesn't change that fact that he's a selfish little whiner who is jealous because "God gave someone else a miracle" and he didn't get one. he should be happy for the person who got a second chance, not wish no miracle at all upon him.
if you ask me, that's not a very foolish way of thinking.
Tell me, how exactly DOES a biscuit gain Valor?
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10539
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Posted - 2013.11.23 04:04:00 -
[130] - Quote
My current stance as to why I don't want respecs given out is may prove habit forming and consistently demanded by the community every time 'something' changes.
This will also hurt future sales if the 'expectancy' is set should these ever get sold in the future. Because if they are handed out like free candy, people are not going to like buying 'free candy' later on.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
745
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Posted - 2013.11.23 04:25:00 -
[131] - Quote
I am Jack's complete expectation of a respec.
If you don't think sniping is the greatest thing everGǪ I will fight you. That's no lie.
-GÇö Ron Burgundy paraphrased
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Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
6
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Posted - 2013.11.23 04:36:00 -
[132] - Quote
I knew I wasn't the only one that thought "Bob" was selfish and short sighted. But I see the CPM's point as well. I'm well aware that Dust is MEANT to be long term, but with all the short term changes and long term promises new players have no idea what they're getting into, even if they do have an inkling everything is still subject to change and reworking. I don't believe that any one person DESERVES a respec, just that they have the option should they need a fresh start. I make no excuses, but I missed my chance at a respec that wish I would of had. Hell for the sake of the new berries allow a respec until a certain amount of wp is earned, at least to improve the new player experience.
P.s.
I hate posting from a phone, please disregard any mistakes. |
CharCharOdell
1652
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Posted - 2013.11.23 04:58:00 -
[133] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:ACE OF JOKERS wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:
I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely.
What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's.
GÖªOf course you wont admit Bob is Afraid of Alex. You are Bob. GÖªEven with his Poor SP decisions (which were NOT POOR AT THE TIME THEY WERE MADE, they got nerfed by Bob) Alex can still pound bob. GÖªI never Said Bob was good. I said Bob has an advantage over Alex. GÖªWho said Alex throwesd his SP about? Alex wanted to be a Nova Knife scout and an AV specialist. Both got Nerfed to the ground. This is not poor SP choices, not spending SP poorly, this is something inevitable that when it happns to BOB, ALex wont be there to support him. GÖªDevs are breaking their word because there are more Alex's than Bobs, and the Devs KNOW Alex's are rights.Bobs arent.Simple. Bolding everything you say is annoying. Fixed. I won't even bother with a point-by-point, most of your points are pure opinion and heavily biased. Bobs are not afraid of Alexs. Alexs feel persecuted and wish to turn that into a positive thing by thinking they are superior. You think you're better than a Bob. You are not. You are the same. Bob and Alex started the same, and had the same chances with the same points and same skills. Bob ended up doing better because he was careful. If Alex had simply been as careful, he would have been alot better off. Also, if your particular Alex decided to specialize into a SIDEARM and a NICHE PLAY-STYLE without putting points into the basics, he shot himself in the foot. He never thought about what he would do in a wide-open map, he never thought what he would do without expensive caskets to hunt. He. Never. Thought. Also, DEVs are not giving a full respec. Just a partial to vehicles because of major restructuring. Sensible and reasonable.
No, Bob ended up doing better because he did not spec nova knives, shotguns, heavy, av, flaylocks, etc. Bob put his points into logistics suits, mass drivers, and assault rifles while Alex specialized, as well, but allof his gear got nerfed which was out of his control. His entire playstyle is less effective than bob because of CCP's inability to balance their game.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
657
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Posted - 2013.11.23 05:06:00 -
[134] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:You don't know Jack.
He planned, tested, and found a playstyle that fit him. He played it, and enjoyed it. Then CCP came in, and ruined an entire playstyle. Jack's playstyle. Now he wants a respec.
Who told you about me?!
Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
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RA Drahcir
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
296
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Posted - 2013.11.23 05:57:00 -
[135] - Quote
Why are they doing a partial respec? What about tankers that specced into infantry as well? Don't you think they want to fully commit SP into the vehicle skill trees, or give up tanking and revert to ARs like everyone else? |
Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
131
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Posted - 2013.11.23 10:22:00 -
[136] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off.
OK, but there is also Charlie. Charlie has 10Mil SP's, all in Infantry. He wants to go into tanks after a respec. Why does he have to grind out those SP's, when David gets his SP's in vehicles back and can put them into infantry.
I am the Horseless Headsman.
Director and COO of We Who Walk Alone
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
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ELITE INQUISITOR
Eternal Beings
20
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Posted - 2013.11.23 11:57:00 -
[137] - Quote
Most of the people who don't want respecs are people who have been playing long enough that they probably have multiple proto suits and gear. Why would they want a respec? They already have what they want. Might as well keep others down who didn't know what or how they wanted to play. I digress
If you accept your limitations you go beyond them
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Chewie Parker
Black Phoenix Mercenaries
44
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Posted - 2013.11.23 13:01:00 -
[138] - Quote
i can be classed as a bob , i have all my 29mill sp carefully placed where it needs to be for my logi to be top notch (19.5mill in dropsuite upgrades , i have 1 weapon , the AR , i chose this weapon , almost a year ago , because it was the lightest weapon i could get my hands on , and i have maxed all its skills , now , if i had access to the combat rifle at the start it would have been first choice . this bob doesnt want a full respec , just my AR points back to reallocate in a weapon that is not too dissimilar to the one i use , i allready have my next 6 months of skill points carefully planned out , this dissruption will cause my a large headache ,
the part that im finding most annoying is that the Dev's have totally avoided commenting on this (as far as i've seen) . i have noted that a lot of the posts asking for clarification have been rants rather than asked in a decent manor . it would be really helpfull if a dev could kindly get involved in this conversation so that we can find out if there is a possibility of a refund for AR & and SCR . and if not they're reasons not to allow such a move. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
1756
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Posted - 2013.11.23 13:02:00 -
[139] - Quote
Im Bob
I planned for the vehicle tree, i worked it out how much SP it would take for me to spec it out, i planned ahead
Once i specced out my vehicle tree i started planning for the pilot suits, they never arrived but i managed to save up 8mil SP
No more vehicles were arriving and the vehicle patch was way off in the future, could have been a year maybe more so i spent my SP on a secondary role
Now CCP has changed the amount of SP needed to be a vehicle specialist by a factor of 3, the amount i have now will not cover what i need in 1.7
I need my SP out of infantry to be even close to what i can do now in 1.7
I planned ahead and finished the vehicle tree, now CCP has changed the SP amount so its more of a sink so i now need even more SP to spec out in the vehicle tree
I made my choices, i planned it out and finished the vehicle tree which made me competitve in PC, im happy with my SP in where they are, but between vehicles and infantry i want to go full vehicles and the amount of SP needed in 1.7 has gone up by a factor of 3
In 1.6 i had access to every mod and vehicle (not lolenforcers)
Now i need to put every SP i have into vehicles because they changed it all around and increased the amount needed |
CharCharOdell
1655
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:07:00 -
[140] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Im Bob
I planned for the vehicle tree, i worked it out how much SP it would take for me to spec it out, i planned ahead
Once i specced out my vehicle tree i started planning for the pilot suits, they never arrived but i managed to save up 8mil SP
No more vehicles were arriving and the vehicle patch was way off in the future, could have been a year maybe more so i spent my SP on a secondary role
Now CCP has changed the amount of SP needed to be a vehicle specialist by a factor of 3, the amount i have now will not cover what i need in 1.7
I need my SP out of infantry to be even close to what i can do now in 1.7
I planned ahead and finished the vehicle tree, now CCP has changed the SP amount so its more of a sink so i now need even more SP to spec out in the vehicle tree
I made my choices, i planned it out and finished the vehicle tree which made me competitve in PC, im happy with my SP in where they are, but between vehicles and infantry i want to go full vehicles and the amount of SP needed in 1.7 has gone up by a factor of 3
In 1.6 i had access to every mod and vehicle (not lolenforcers)
Now i need to put every SP i have into vehicles because they changed it all around and increased the amount needed
my point exactly. everyone gets a respec.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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CharCharOdell
1659
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:10:00 -
[141] - Quote
Luna Angelo wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is..
"What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?"
This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters.
If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex.
In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs.
Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him.
In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else.
The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught.
A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. OK, but there is also Charlie. Charlie has 10Mil SP's, all in Infantry. He wants to go into tanks after a respec. Why does he have to grind out those SP's, when David gets his SP's in vehicles back and can put them into infantry.
again, perfectly said.
this partial respec screws everyone. pilots want to take infantry and put it in pilot skills. other pilots want to take their new free sp and spec full infantry. some infantry want to spec vehicles.
then heavies want more than 2 fitting choices.
AR and SR guys now have 2 more options they wouldm hqve chosen otherwise
scouts r missing 2 suits
a respec benefits everyone and it shouldhappen. 'permanence' doesnt matter if not all choices are available.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Chewie Parker
Black Phoenix Mercenaries
45
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Posted - 2013.11.23 21:27:00 -
[142] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:My current stance as to why I don't want respecs given out is may prove habit forming and consistently demanded by the community every time 'something' changes.
This will also hurt future sales if the 'expectancy' is set should these ever get sold in the future. Because if they are handed out like free candy, people are not going to like buying 'free candy' later on.
what's your stance on people being refunded the points that are in the AR & SCR , due to the fact that this branch of weapons has its full range of racial variants . |
ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
204
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Posted - 2013.11.23 21:59:00 -
[143] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Reasons For:
Allows new players a chance to restart.
Allows players a chance to try something new.
Brings in new players.
Brings back old players.
Gear was nerfed.
Unfinished racial line up.
Gives new players the ability to compete.
Reasons Against:
Creates fotm.
Creates the cycle of more respecs.
Choices matter.
Everyone starts the same and it should stay that way.
New gear is easy to get into.
It isn't fair to players who are just starting or hasn't started.
Gear wasn't nerfed, it was balanced.
You had the same choices we did.
New players don't know about respecs.
Only a few players will return because the line up is still unfinished.
Your whole explanation was very elaborate and of course with lots of valid points, SADLY this: ''Brings in new players.
Brings back old players.'' Is worth more than all the cons together.... |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe PC
RISE of LEGION
1998
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Posted - 2013.11.23 22:04:00 -
[144] - Quote
Seems to me to be pretty cut and dry.
Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
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Athrak Kinz
Valkyrian Armada
12
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Posted - 2013.11.23 22:34:00 -
[145] - Quote
Well this thread has done a 180-¦, I thought that intellectual people who wanted respecs didn't exist. I doubt we'll even get a partial, maybe a full respec by the time 2.0 drops. Until then, I'm just gonna keep kicking up Dust. 
Full time Logi before it was cool.
GÿàProud GallenteanGÿà
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CharCharOdell
1660
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Posted - 2013.11.24 03:31:00 -
[146] - Quote
all FOTM and anything about content and SP aside, a respec would keep newplayers and bring back old players.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Michael Arck
Anubis Prime Syndicate
1869
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Posted - 2013.11.24 03:34:00 -
[147] - Quote
I never understood why some folks feel that they should be rewarded when others receive gifts. LOL must have been some spoiled siblings in the home. |
Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
64
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Posted - 2013.11.25 16:36:00 -
[148] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:My current stance as to why I don't want respecs given out is may prove habit forming and consistently demanded by the community every time 'something' changes.
This will also hurt future sales if the 'expectancy' is set should these ever get sold in the future. Because if they are handed out like free candy, people are not going to like buying 'free candy' later on.
I would totally agree with you *IF* CCP had put out a full game from the get go (meaning full racial variants for every suit category, weapon type, and vehicle type). But they haven't. They only have two races of vehicles. They have only two races of most of the dropsuits and only one for the heavy type (Amarr). And they have a scatter-shot smattering of the different race's versions of the sidearms, assault, long-range, and heavy weapons. And they admit to this! So to be a "competent" soldier on the battlefield you have to pick a suit from one race, a sidearm from another, a main weapon from yet another, a tank from another, a dropship from another, an LAV from something else...
There is currently no way to be racially conforming in this game! So when I go for faction warfare loyalty points what happens? Why bother? You are setting your own system up for failure! You are trying to encourage faction warfare on one hand while totally screwing those players with the other hand! This and only this is the only reason to warrant a full skill respec!
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