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Why people who don't want respecs don't want them.

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Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1219	Posted - 2013.11.22 03:49:00 - [1] - Quote People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is.. "What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?" This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters. If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex. In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs. Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him. In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else. The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught. A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1219	Posted - 2013.11.22 04:34:00 - [2] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Actually, the concern is that people will use SP respecs to chase the flavor of the month. If optional SP respecs came with a disincentive like losing 1/5 of your life time SP to discourage FotM chasers, "Bob"s wouldn't be so against respecs. Vehicles are having their skill tree redone, so they deserve their refund of SP invested into the current vehicle skill tree. I'm talking about full respecs. Partials have no weight in this conversation, getting your points back when your choice is no longer the same as it was should be a matter of course. To put it the way the guy above did, Jack's deserve to get their partials because of reasons beyond their control, but not the full ones Alex's are so hungry for. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1220	Posted - 2013.11.22 04:40:00 - [3] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I still don't see how this negatively impacts people who have their mode of gameplay down pat, they get to keep on doing what they do. Those who either didn't know any better, or were so bored out of their skull waiting for content that should have been in the game at release get what they want. I have HTFU about this but I'm still always saddened the Amarr HAV wasn't put in the game sooner. I have skills all over the place which should have been put into my beloved tanks....now however I am being shunned because they couldn't get their content together to make a full release. SO here in this argument it always comes down to one side being given the cold shoulder or the other. I have put a year into this game same as most, but still haven't gotten what I wanted/ needed out of it. That's not my fault that's down to the devs. And I'll wait for the content, admittedly I am a little raw of recent weeks, but I will wait same as the rest of you for what I want. Presently its a P2P market I desire so I can get into indy work. It's not that it negatively impacts them, it's that it doesn't reward them. They don't get anything out of the respec, which to the Alex's of the game would be a major event. Think of it like CCP completely reworking all the Caldari HAVs out of the blue, making them better in every way, while the Gallente ones aren't hurt, but they didn't get anything either. The Gally HAVers would be pissed, and rightfully so. As for the racial variants thing, they should have had that done before beta officially ended. If nothing else they should have put in the placeholder models and statted them the way they want to. Now we have to wait for them, and beta test them during 'full release.' If I hadn't have given up on Heavy after Chromosome, I'd be irritated about the lack of Minny Hoovs Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1220	Posted - 2013.11.22 04:44:00 - [4] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is.. "What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?" This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters. If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex. In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs. Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him. In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else. The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught. A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. Alex was not rewarded; Alex was simply not punished for investing SP into his only viable option to avoid getting stomped on for months, testing items out that don't have militia versions, or using his SP in some other non-stupid way. For instance, will Heavies get a respec when they get their racial variants? I refuse to spec into Amarr Sentinel's myself, but many players have. Who wants to get stomped on waiting for variants? So, they go for the only available choice. Then they need to grind back up millions of SP for what they really wanted, and their previous investment is rendered useless. The heavy thing is a case for a partial respec, as valid as the current vehicle one. This thread is not about patials, and does not cover them. Only the war between 'We need respec' guys and 'No more respec' guys. In THAT light, I will go on to say that Alex not getting punished is equivalent to Bob not getting rewarded. What's the point of doing well if you get nothing for it? What's the point of doing badly if you aren't punished? People won't learn this way, they'll just keep making horrible SP investments, counting on 'just one more respec' to get them an out-of-jail-free-card. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1220	Posted - 2013.11.22 04:51:00 - [5] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is.. "What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?" This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters. If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex. In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs. Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him. In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else. The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught. A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So basically, BOB wants to keep his advantage over Alex. We already knew this bro. bob is scared of Alex. PLUS its not all ALEX fault! There are no MLT variants of MANY stuff so he HAD to spend SP to test it. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Your rebuttal is stupid and you should feel stupid. I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely. What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1221	Posted - 2013.11.22 05:07:00 - [6] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely. What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's. GÖªOf course you wont admit Bob is Afraid of Alex. You are Bob. GÖªEven with his Poor SP decisions (which were NOT POOR AT THE TIME THEY WERE MADE, they got nerfed by Bob) Alex can still pound bob. GÖªI never Said Bob was good. I said Bob has an advantage over Alex. GÖªWho said Alex throwesd his SP about? Alex wanted to be a Nova Knife scout and an AV specialist. Both got Nerfed to the ground. This is not poor SP choices, not spending SP poorly, this is something inevitable that when it happns to BOB, ALex wont be there to support him. GÖªDevs are breaking their word because there are more Alex's than Bobs, and the Devs KNOW Alex's are rights.Bobs arent.Simple. Bolding everything you say is annoying. Fixed. I won't even bother with a point-by-point, most of your points are pure opinion and heavily biased. Bobs are not afraid of Alexs. Alexs feel persecuted and wish to turn that into a positive thing by thinking they are superior. You think you're better than a Bob. You are not. You are the same. Bob and Alex started the same, and had the same chances with the same points and same skills. Bob ended up doing better because he was careful. If Alex had simply been as careful, he would have been alot better off. Also, if your particular Alex decided to specialize into a SIDEARM and a NICHE PLAY-STYLE without putting points into the basics, he shot himself in the foot. He never thought about what he would do in a wide-open map, he never thought what he would do without expensive caskets to hunt. He. Never. Thought. Also, DEVs are not giving a full respec. Just a partial to vehicles because of major restructuring. Sensible and reasonable. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1221	Posted - 2013.11.22 05:15:00 - [7] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is.. "What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?" This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters. If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex. In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs. Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him. In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else. The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught. A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So basically, BOB wants to keep his advantage over Alex. We already knew this bro. bob is scared of Alex. PLUS its not all ALEX fault! There are no MLT variants of MANY stuff so he HAD to spend SP to test it. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Your rebuttal is stupid and you should feel stupid. I never said Bob was afraid of Alex, that is you failing to see things from a Bob's point of view. You are having an X-Man moment: I am different and therefore better. You think that your poor SP choices are responsible for your combat failings. You think Bob is only good because he spent his SP wisely. What is actually going on is that Alex is not getting punished for throwing his SP about, while Bob is not getting rewarded for being careful with his SP. Even if you tested some equipment, do you know how little the first level of any skill matters? You can train it off of two or three good matches. That is no excuse for being poor with SP. Bob is getting thrown to the wayside, and the DEVs are breaking their word to appease the Alex's. No racial Heavy variants for several months from the time you get into Heavies? That's OK; just get stomped for several months in militia gear until CCP decides to add them. Your gun-gun-gun got nerfed and is no longer suitable for your purposes? That's OK; you can always rely on Remote Explosives, right? New guns are introduced, swallowing your niche and presenting superior options to the one you chose, which was possibly the only option for your role at the time (say, you use Laser Rifles)? No problem. Just use your 19m span, 300 DPS Laser Rifle against the 78m span, 500 DPS Rail Rifles and 78m span, 900 (accounting recoil, this time, roughly) DPS Scrambler Rifles. That's OK; you can use standard guns for a month against all the protos when you would've chosen these guns to begin with, right? 3/6 combat skill trees are being completely redone and you want to get into vehicles if they aren't pieces of crap this time around and have 10 million SP in fat suits with assault rifles with complex damage modifiers and armor? That's OK; you can just Murder Taxi for a year to get that SP back and put it into vehicles. I don't know about you, but these don't seem to lead to a happy and content player base. All of these are cases for partial respecs at best. To play Devil's Advocate though... Deciding to stay in Militia is a stupid excuse, they will probably give Amarr Heavy a partial like they did with Vehicles, or split it like they did with Destroyers. Use what you have and move on. Waiting for the DEVs to add something isn't gamebreaking. If it was, you simply wouldn't be playing. If your gun got nerfed, it was most likely for good reason. Laser Rifles still have a niche as they have no kick. Perfect accuracy, perfect line of death. The main reason they are respeccing the vehicle tree is because the tree is being torn up completely, so they can then put their SP into the new tree. Any player moving their points to the Infantry trees as a result deserves to start back at the bottom. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1222	Posted - 2013.11.22 05:21:00 - [8] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Bolding everything you say is annoying. Fixed. I won't even bother with a point-by-point, most of your points are pure opinion and heavily biased. Bobs are not afraid of Alexs. Alexs feel persecuted and wish to turn that into a positive thing by thinking they are superior. You think you're better than a Bob. You are not. You are the same. Bob and Alex started the same, and had the same chances with the same points and same skills. Bob ended up doing better because he was careful. If Alex had simply been as careful, he would have been alot better off. Also, if your particular Alex decided to specialize into a SIDEARM and a NICHE PLAY-STYLE without putting points into the basics, he shot himself in the foot. He never thought about what he would do in a wide-open map, he never thought what he would do without expensive caskets to hunt. He. Never. Thought. Also, DEVs are not giving a full respec. Just a partial to vehicles because of major restructuring. Sensible and reasonable. GÖªBob and Alex are the same. Bob still has an UNFAIR advantage over Alex = INBALANCE GÖªAlex was not necesarily NOT careful. Just Bob's decisions in SP didnt get heavily affected by changes over time and ALEX's did. GÖªBOB is just being selfish since he doesnt need the repec. GÖªI won't even bother with you , your points are pure opinion and heavily biased, You just CANT understand that ALEX might have planned BETTER than BOB, but BOB went Generic Mid Frame And AR and because Alex tried to play differnetly he is getting punished.Unecesarily. You are just ASSUMING , Alex never though. Well, bob went with a Generic FOTM that is still viable while ALEX DID indeed put a lot of effort in his SP books and got screwed over,while BOB did what most players did and happily says there is no need for respecs. GÖªThey should also give one to AV players AT LEAST,a respec....since we got all nerfed to the ground. GÖªCant stop my BOLD. Bold stopped. Bob has no unfair advantage. Bob had access to all the information Alex did, and made better decisions with it. He doesn't need a respec, nor does he want it because that means his care was in vain and fruitless. ALEX is being selfish, forcing his needs on Bob and not giving a damn. If he HAD planned better, he wouldn't be in this spot. He literally brought a knife to a gunfight in your case, what did he expect? AV has not been nerfed. Vehicles and AV were scaled down, both of them. As such, if AV did 20 to a 200 HP HAV, it now does 2 to a 20 HP one. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1222	Posted - 2013.11.22 05:25:00 - [9] - Quote Atiim wrote: Some people fail to see how this could help even the field in terms of giving new players and people who didn't know better a second chance. And before you say, "Oh well I could get a really good setup going with the starter 500,000 SP. There isn't a problem there". think about this, how many new players would know exactly what to do with their 500k SP? Old players were new once, and made the same mistakes. If you respec them, you give them the same chance. This won't fix the gap between new and old, the old will simply use it to minmax themselves to the peak of power, while the newbies will get to refund their test points into Plasma Cannon I and Hacking III. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1222	Posted - 2013.11.22 05:29:00 - [10] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: All of these are cases for partial respecs at best. To play Devil's Advocate though... Deciding to stay in Militia is a stupid excuse, they will probably give Amarr Heavy a partial like they did with Vehicles, or split it like they did with Destroyers. Use what you have and move on. Waiting for the DEVs to add something isn't gamebreaking. If it was, you simply wouldn't be playing. If your gun got nerfed, it was most likely for good reason. Laser Rifles still have a niche as they have no kick. Perfect accuracy, perfect line of death. The main reason they are respeccing the vehicle tree is because the tree is being torn up completely, so they can then put their SP into the new tree. Any player moving their points to the Infantry trees as a result deserves to start back at the bottom. Well ithink is unfair to vehicle drivers to have a respec and being able to put those SP into infantry,and we infantry AV wont,even if our weapons were UNESESARILY NERFED (Ty to all the Tanker QQ) to the ground. Now i wont get a Partial respec on my FG,Swarms, AV grenades and PC? How come? what if i want to use it to spec into vehicles? Seems like crappy decision making from CCP. Forgetting Bob and Alex for a minute, you seriously specced into Forge Guns, Swarm Launchers, AV grenades, and Plasma Cannons, as well as Nova Knives? That's three Light weapons, a Heavy weapon, a Sidearm, and the suits to go with them. And not ONCE did you think of spending some on an anti-infantry firearm? I need to say nothing, this speaks for itself. You are an Alex. Shields as Weapons

Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1222	Posted - 2013.11.22 05:31:00 - [11] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: All of these are cases for partial respecs at best. To play Devil's Advocate though... Deciding to stay in Militia is a stupid excuse, they will probably give Amarr Heavy a partial like they did with Vehicles, or split it like they did with Destroyers. Use what you have and move on. Waiting for the DEVs to add something isn't gamebreaking. If it was, you simply wouldn't be playing. If your gun got nerfed, it was most likely for good reason. Laser Rifles still have a niche as they have no kick. Perfect accuracy, perfect line of death. The main reason they are respeccing the vehicle tree is because the tree is being torn up completely, so they can then put their SP into the new tree. Any player moving their points to the Infantry trees as a result deserves to start back at the bottom. Okay, I'll take your word for it and spec 2,400,000 SP into prototype Amarr Sentinel suits. I'm sure I'll get a partial respec. Oh, wait. Then CCP won't and you'll just tell me to suck it up because I should've thought ahead. Waiting for the DEVs to add something for several months, is, indeed, gamebreaking for many. Well, it's pretty easy if you just build passive SP and go play Killzone. See? Helping player retention already. Guns are voluntarily nerfed and also nerfed by the addition of new guns, or the buffing of similar guns, really. Also, Laser Rifles have the worst DPS profile in the game to pay for the lack of kick, until around 25-30 rounds have been fired. Sure, if you can fire a whole clip at 65m into a Rail Rifle user you'll match their DPS on average or slightly exceed it. Chances are you'll be dead long before your DPS builds unless you fire at a wall for 4 second straight, but that's perfectly fine because it is recoiless. As of 1.6 with the improved hit detection, I can easily use a Scrambler or TAR to completely suppress a Laser Rifle user. I have not died to a Laser Rifle user I knew existed in the last 50 encounters with them since 1.6, unless they are head glitching and get me as I cross a desert. The Laser is a joke now. Luckily, I was not dumb enough to blow all my SP on it, even though I mained it for 2 months. And I have Proficiency levels in Laser Rifles, what's your point? Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1225	Posted - 2013.11.22 05:55:00 - [12] - Quote ACE OF JOKERS wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Forgetting Bob and Alex for a minute, you seriously specced into Forge Guns, Swarm Launchers, AV grenades, and Plasma Cannons, as well as Nova Knives? That's three Light weapons, a Heavy weapon, a Sidearm, and the suits to go with them. And not ONCE did you think of spending some on an anti-infantry firearm? I need to say nothing, this speaks for itself. You are an Alex. Come to me bro, i'll show you how a SCR rifle is used. Before the Uprising OPTIONAL Respec= I was a Chromosome Scout. When the SCR came out , I became a SCR specialist. AFTER THE RESPEC we got in uprising: I specced into SCR RIFLES and SCOUTS FIRST. With this i went Amarr assault and Minmatar scouts Scouts for CQ, AMarr Assault for every other map. Nova knifes 5, Shotguns 5, SMGs 4 (that are still good, THANK GOD) , and a Lot Of My SP into Passive stuff for my scout. When the Murder Taxi trend came along and was the FOTM, i decided i wanted to stop it.I had enough of it and i was NOT having fun anymore. SO i invested into Amarr sentinel Lv 4, FG Proficiency 5, Swarm launcher to use on my assault amarr, Prof 5, Grenades Operation 5.(note , I didnt even USE locus grenades before. I only used the SP wor the Lai Dai packed ones....).The PC when it came out i only got it to level 3. The commando Lv 3 is MY fault for trying to try stuff out,but its impossible to use the STD commando as it has NO slots. This is a short history of my SP usage, since you are interested. Except the commando, i dont really think i either jumped into any FOTM NOR wasted my Sp around.I dont deserve to run handicapped now. Yeah i know what you are going to say, SCR! SCR are GOOD! Well yeah , but i have 20 mill and i run ADV SCR and ADV Amarr asasult with 550 HP. LET ME RUN A PROFILE DAMPNED , 850EHP, IMPERIAL SCRAMBLER RIFLE + QUantum SCANNER Amarr Assault. Heh, throw me at them Proto logis.... I have about 3 or 4 Mill SP that is actaully useful for my current play style. 7-8 maybe considering the Passives. Leaving me with a total of (in the best case scenario) 12 Million of wasted SP. Now you might say: Your AV weapons were a kind of FOTM vs Murder taxis and you shouldnt get a respec! WELL MURDER TAXIS ARE GETTING A RESPEC NOW ARENT THEY. First, MurderTaxi isn't getting a resec because he is a muredertaxi. He is a beneficiary of lucky happenstance. His Taxi has already been nerfed out of Murder, and will shortly no longer even exist. No-one could say that it's fair for their SP to be locked up in a skill that literally doesn't exist anymore. As for the sudden vehicular splurge, that wasn't reasoned. It sounds like a moment of passion or anger. An equally determined but more levelheaded clone would have just specced into one AV weapon. A more defeat-est clone would have ignored MurderTaxis entirely, confident in them being nerfed. If you were truly confident in your playstyle and truly wanted that perfect Assault Amarr fit, you wouldn't have splurged on all those flavors of AV points, then regretted all the extra horizontal it added to your SP tree. You made a bad choice. Simple as. And no, there is no room for negotiation. No one needs to spec into more guns that fill the same niche than any suit in the game can fit at once. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1225	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:09:00 - [13] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: And no, there is no room for negotiation. No one needs to spec into more guns that fill the same niche than any suit in the game can fit at once. If only this were true, but that's the point. You start with Lasers. Okay, hit collision in 1.6 makes semiautomatics very powerful and the Laser hard to stay alive with. You spec into TARs for the long range and scope, both being better than the Scrambler. The Scrambler gets a 30m range extension and the TAR gets a 5m nerf, while the Rail Rifle also is added. Now what? Spec into Scrambler Rifles, everyone complains the range is OP, it gets nerfed to 45m from the 78m. Spec into Rail Rifles. CCP decides to make the spool up time 1 second instead and increase the kick and it's a big turd. The cycle continues. Much of that is pointless conjecture... Also, one thing I'd love to stress. You don't spec into tactical assalt rifles. You spec into Assault Rifles... and get TAR as a bonus. If you didn't spec into the weapon tree that is specifically denoted as the tactical rifles, then it is no-one's fault but your own. Also, 1.6 made full autos more powerful. Technically, it didn't, it just made them as powerful as they were always programmed to be. If that was higher than they were supposed to be... only the DEVs can say. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1225	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:12:00 - [14] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is.. "What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?" This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters. If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex. In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs. Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him. In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else. The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught. A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So what's your view on those that put points into vehicles? That is a partial respec. They deserve those points because those skills will literally not exist after 1.7. Look at the first page, and check out who a Jack is. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1226	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:38:00 - [15] - Quote Subject 36 wrote: I still don't see why Bob is upset. Alex could now spend his skill points carefully. Alex should should STFU and not be upset for a thing that didn't affect him in any negative way but just being an angry little s***. Bob is upset because all his choices are rendered moot, and his better decision-making skills are made pointless. Alex got a candy instead of a whipping, while Bob got nothing. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1226	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:48:00 - [16] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is.. "What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?" This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters. If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex. In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs. Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him. In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else. The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught. A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. So what's your view on those that put points into vehicles? That is a partial respec. They deserve those points because those skills will literally not exist after 1.7. Look at the first page, and check out who a Jack is. So what if those pilots don't want to use vehicles anymore, because everything about them is going to change? It's somewhat unfair for them to be able to respec them into Infantry, but it would no doubt be ridiculously overcomplicated to lock those SP to vehicles. The vehicle pilots are getting a lucky break, and if they wish to join the ground-pounders then fine. I personally always felt that Vehicles were a mid-game thing, something to aspire to later on after you set your core. In either case, if they no longer have trust in their vehicles, let them abandon them. There are just as many problems on the Infantry side. Besides, they get to see the new vehicles before they have to start putting points back. That's pretty darn fair. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1230	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:12:00 - [17] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Jesus christ, how many times do I have to say it? This isn't a flavor of the month thing, or wanting a respec for the sake of it. They're removing turrets, modules, skills and hulls. They're changing activation and cooldown times for modules. They're changing the effectiveness of modules. For some pilots, honestly, it just won't be worth it anymore due to the changes infantry forced on CCP. We make tanks work now, and infantry doesn't like it, because they STILL complain that vehicles are OP. Don't you see, that's it's CCP changing this, completely, and not looking for an easy out? You seem to be seeing what you want to see. I said It was fine for the partial respec, as those skills won't exist anymore. You just keep asking leading questions until you find something to whine about. I never said anything about FotM, nor a respec for the sake of it. Stop imagining persecution where it doesn't exist. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1231	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:48:00 - [18] - Quote TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is.. "What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?" This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters. If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex. In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs. Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him. In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else. The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught. A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. TL;DR no personal attacks here. for the skim that i did over one part of this, bob is very selfish. all that the respec did was help other people, but because he didn't get something, he's upset. bob is very immature. I'm so sorry that biscuits are not smart enough to read a small passage of text. You shouldn't even bother to comment if you won't read, you'll make yourself look like a fool. Look at this from Bob's point of view. Maybe I should glitz it up a bit. Bob did nothing wrong. He did everything well, didn't have a single regret. Alex feels like he screwed up. God decides to 'fix' Alex with a huge miracle, but completely ignores Bob, who is right there. Bob doesn't get a get-out-of-screwup free card. Bob doesn't need one. Alex did, but Alex felt he needed one. See what I mean yet? No one NEEDS a respec. NO ONE. The Alex players only WANT one, but are projecting their want on everyone as if it were a need. If CCP caves and gives the Alex players this boon, they get what they've always wanted, a hugely unlikely gift from the gods of New Eden. Bob gets NOTHING. Bob isn't immature, the very nature of the universe bent over backwards to satisfy Alex, but told Bob to screw off? Get it now? Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1231	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:50:00 - [19] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is.. "What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?" This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters. If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex. In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs. Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him. In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else. The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught. A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. And then we have Charlie... He likes the Amarr and would not stoop to debasing himself to use a Minmatar heretic's weapon, but there is no heavy weapon to go with his heavy Amarr suit. So he skills into Forge Gun or HMG, but now they are saying that the Forge is Caldari and the HMG is Minmatar. What can he do? He wants his points back to skill them into the holy and blessed Amarr tools of destruction! (Similarly for people wanting to stick with Minmatar stuff instead of Galente with the AR vs. Combat Rifle stuff.) Oh and here's another thread to discuss respec for AUR as an option: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118583&find=unread Having points in those things doesn't hurt you. Also, the HMG and FG are pretty obvious who they belong to. A person with only cursory knowledge of new Eden would be able to tell :p Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1236	Posted - 2013.11.22 18:30:00 - [20] - Quote Athrak Kinz wrote: low genius wrote: Kahn Zo wrote: Athrak Kinz wrote: So let me get this straight, Bob is pissed because Alex now knows what he wants to skill into and has learned and improved his play style? IMO Bob should be happy that Alex became a competent player, not spite him. I'm in favor of ONE repsec for all players until we get proper testing facilities, because as it stands now the only way to know what you're getting into (as a new player) is to skill into it and use it on the battlefield. Those who don't want respects lose nothing, those FOTM chasers get locked and those with new found knowledge become more stable. Tl;Dr One (optional) respect for all until we get proper equipment test facilities. That is what "Bob' is worried about. Bobberry~ one who negates a respec for all for selfish reasons. and life doesn't have a respec button for those same 'selfish' reasons I suppose? go play cod. I hear they give respecs. Well if this is real life then I'm taken aback, I thought this was a game. Are you going to argue that life is a game now? I suppose "low genius" is an apt name for you. Let's hear it, why don't you want a respect? Validate yourself. Aaaaaaaaaaaand personal attacks, aren't we all just having fun. Bob isn't worried about Alex. He is upset that what he has done has amounted to nothing because CCP, in this scenario, let Alex off the hook. Furthermore, because Bob doesn't need a respec, what should be a momentous occasion the likes of which no-one will ever see again is, to him, just a mild irritation to put his points back where they were. Bobs get nothing, so why should they support Alexs trying to poke CCP until they give in? Why should Alexs get something special for screwing up? Why should Alex not just buck up and start putting SP in better investments? It's what Bob does. Lvl I is very easy to get. Shields as Weapons

Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1236	Posted - 2013.11.22 19:23:00 - [21] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: And just to add to my point above. The FOTM chasers are actually doing the game a favor. They highlight the OPness or the shortcomings of items rather quickly. Other than holding on to the ideals from Eve I still can't wrap my head around the anti-respec mindset. I do believe that a lot of vets are worried that all these randoms might get their **** together if their SP were allocated properly. Please cease that easily refuted point. The vets aren't scared of the newbies. If anything, the newbies should be scared that the vets could respec all 10-40 million SP. The anti-respec mindset is pretty easy to understand if you choose to do so. I specced into, let's say Laser Rifle I. I can still spec into ARs, ScRs, SLs, ANYTHING really. That's the point of the game. You can spec into anything given enough time investment. If you let people respec every few months it cuts down both the interest of the new and the repercussions of the permanent. For a personal example, I have enough SP saved up to proto both the new guns being added in 1.7. I chose to save instead of spend, which hurt me in the short term. I could proto them out immediately, but that would be a very Alex thing to do. I could also just put a single level into both and tinker with them. It doesn't cost much and I can get that back from a few quick fights. Then I can pour the banked SP into whichever I end ep liking, if either. But what if we get a respec? Not only will that hurt me, because I chose to bank SP, it also kills any permanence of choice. Why not throw this to level V, enough people will be whining for another respec in a month to get me out of it. Why not put all my points into a single niche, I'm just a respec away from getting a weapon in another category. Why shouldn't I pound all my SP into the new thing, I'll get it back in a month. Why can't I just try a new role every few months until the whole game's intrigue is torn away? I could just do it the way the game intended and unlock everything over time, but why should I when they will always cave for a respec? Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1236	Posted - 2013.11.22 19:25:00 - [22] - Quote Athrak Kinz wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: People keep using the same line to defend respecs, and it has begun to wear on my patience. That line is.. "What do people who don't want respecs have to lose?" This is usually followed by some personal attacks, something about speccing out of FotM, something about fear of newbies, and general name-calling. So I'm here to clear up the confusion and shut down a few rather virulent badposters. If we give a respec, Imagine we have Alex. Alex spent his SP willy-nilly, just playing and testing. He didn't have a plan in mind, so if he gets a respec he can start over, plan accordingly, and put points into his favored playstyle. It's all good... for Alex. In case you didn't get the hint, Alex is players who want respecs. Then after the respec, we have Bob. Bob spent his SP wisely, making each choice count. He has all his points placed in carefully thought arrangements, and doesn't regret a single level. When he puts his points in again, he puts them back in the exact same place. His game hasn't changed at all, and he is upset that the game rewarded Alex, who screwed up his SP, and snubbed him. In case you didn't get the hint, Bob is everyone else. The Alex's of the game refuse to see things from the point of view of the Bob's. Those of us who had a plan get nothing for it, and feel like all our work was for naught. A simple solution would be to give some goodies out along with the respec, or make it a choice between goodies and respec. The former would probably be easier on CCP, but either would give the Bob's something instead of just telling them to sod off. I'll never understand Bob's line of thinking here. We are basically still playing a beta. I would assume that most people that are still playing the game want to see it succeed. It will be 7 months from the initial release of the game by the time all racial variants of rifles will be released. I already have over 10 million SP invested into weapons. I guess it won't be that big of a deal for me to wait a month or so to skill into the new weapons, but why should I have to?? This new content is content that should have been available on 5/14, just as the suits should have been. If they were adding the a tier II special dropsuit or something I could understand. I would be screaming that respecs aren't needed. What we've all be doing since 5/14 is beta testing. I'm not sure why it's so hard for some people to comprehend that. Valid points. New features are introduced, things break, RACIAL EQUALITY has yet to be established. For example: Alex wants to be a scout, he only had 2 options so he invested into a proto min scout and the skills and weapons that fit that play style. A couple months later the Caldari scout is released, Alex much prefers the Caldari style but when he started the Cal scout DID NOT EXIST. Is this fair to him? Is it fair to Bob who wanted Amarr dropships but had to settle? Current skills and specs are SP sinks to those that can't have their preferred fits as they'll have to spend tremendous SP to get into the new offerings while leaving their current MO in the Dust. Of course it's fair, you're acting like this feature was not available to him and him alone. Everyone has to start from the bottom when it comes out. If we just let people skip all the way to the top we won't be able to test the lower tiers, nor will we be able to get a feel for the growth of the class. Everyone starts at 0, so everyone has it fair. Shields as Weapons

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