If a MD user has time to fire all 6 rounds at you, which takes over 6 seconds, what were you doing with your main weapon AND sidearm in the meantime???

are you doing this inside installations or out in the open?

Ive camped on crosswalks and rained death from above, and been almost entirely ignored by the pub proto-spammers below...was hilarious :P, wasnt wearing anything above ADV :P... and nothing on my adv suits are stacked, cause it messes up my numbers for restocking :P

any ways my point being, the MD is an area denial system. If it took a hit to damage, then it cant be any worse then it was in early/mid chromosome, and i was happy with the assault variant THEN.... on a Logi suit no less :P, because i used the system for what it was designed for... area denial and terror tactics.

So talk the talk... give solid reasons and not hyperbole and ill jump right on the band wagon... but nuff of the forum warriors bullKITTEN, who the KITTEN tries to shout down everyone but themselves... in a conversation?

You justified when I skewered you on your point about not being effective against infantry. I'm ok if it's good against infantry, but not from halfway across the map where an ar doesn't even get falloff damage and the only thing that can hit you is another forge or a sniper...that's good counterplay...

You're arguing with me not against me. I agree why not make the Forge a light weapon? If you can fit a plasma cannon...

Yout virtually can't one shot a forger so he comes out, drops someone with an assault forge, and then steps back into cover...NOT UNLIKE A MASS DRIVER!

MD Explosion and smoke from said explosion makes it very hard to aim at the attacker. So, maybe the answer is "Getting hit by explosion spam."

More like if it took great skill I'd have no problem with it, but putting a stamina mod on your suit and running around cooking flux's all game so you can one shot someone isn't creating good balance IMO, though I admit I could be entirely wrong.

I have a caldari assault suit with 500 shields a super fast regen shields rate and about 200 armor with a md. I can solo with it, because a flux and 2 quick shots that head towards an area while strafing (see ar's and such would have to aim here to make contact to deal damage, with my md strafing super fast is viable because no worries about lol spray and praying doing almost no damage) mops up 4 people.

But Master, does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your ******* need kicking?

You know that the TAC AR has enough range to make short work of a MD user by staying at such a range that it can be quite difficult to effectively lob rounds in?

You could have a whole squad running the setup you described, and they would still get blasted by a flux and a core locus grenade thrown by two guys.

On my heavy I pack fluxes just for groups of infantry that go shield tanking.

Complaining about someone using a flux and an armor biased weapon is ridiculous. Might as well just ask for all grenades to be removed from the game at that point.

Perhaps I was a little TOO vague in my answer. What I was getting at was that "People Miss". The only "real" problem that can be argued regarding a Mass Driver is that the Direct Damage of non-breach mass Drivers is slightly too high. Most people however, don't rely on the Direct damage and instead use the Splash to either surpress a large group of enemies or, in some cases hit targets that don't require many hits, but much accuracy (see scouts).

Mass Drivers have clear cut weaknesses that make them an extremely difficult weapon to use. A skilled player can overcome many of those weaknesses through sheer amounts of practice and talent but the weapon remains mostly situational. Using a Basic Mass Driver it takes roughly 2-3 shots to kill a scout of the same level, assuming of course that each shot hits. This is, in my opinion, acceptable because scouts are extremely fast and agile opponents with little HP and the Mass Driver is a natural counter to it's defenses.

An Armor Assault/Logi takes about 3-4 shots, again assuming all shots splash. Armor Assaults have higher Armor Value's than scouts but still go down pretty quick after the shields are gone thanks to the natural damage buff vs. armor that explosive rounds have. (which I think might be a little high.)

A Shield Assault/Logi takes about 3-5 shots, which is a lot more variable because of the Shield Tank vs. Damage output that comes from reliance on High Slots.

A Heavy takes 5-7 shots, all splash, depending on how Shield Tanked their suit is. Naturally that number can be augmented with direct hits on the Heavies body, larger and slower mass makes easier target, but again this is assuming all splash. Which means that in some cases the Mass Driver would need to FULLY reload in order to kill a well Shield Tanked Heavy.

This is based on my Experience using a Mass Driver WITHOUT Damage Mods. If you got insta-murdered by a Mass Driver then chances are he either landed a direct hit, is stacking Damage Mods (usually the case with Armor Assault Suits, since they don't need the High Slots for much.) or maybe both.

If you take into account the mass drivers weaknesses regarding fire rate, reload speed, and terrain. You can surmise that the reason it has 6 shots instead of 4 is so that you can actually defend yourself. There are times where using a Mass Driver, if you miss your target once and have to reload, your as good as dead. If the Mass Driver was limited to 4 shots, killing someone with it, in fair combat or otherwise, would be extremely difficult to the point of being under powered.

At least that's my Synopsis.

Keep the faith.

I'm giving reasons you aren't contesting...it's like carrying both contact locus nades and flux nades. and then spamming them...one hit killing everything unless you're on level ground in open terrain, then it takes skill assuming you're at range. A lot of skill.

i see no difference, between using your analogy on the MD than using it on Swarms. Apart from the obvious fact that swarms only affect tanks and that tanks are almost never popular with infantry.

Yes using the MD proficiently takes skill, using it as a FotM for tight ambush style fights is more akin to Spray an Pray, especially when a red knows to close the gap.

Limiting the Clip size or ammo count would in my opinion, nerf the system to near uselessness. I'd much rather see a splash damage nerf (and if possible, a radius increase :P).

I'm actually fine with not killing players and instead fighting for position and advantage, something which an area denial/terror weapon is quite handy for.

Oh yeah, so one guy with a mass driver can do the work of two guys with different nades....cept contact nades only get one and md's get 6...sounds fair? Honestly I've said before I'd love a nade that balanced out to do 130% to shield and 90 or whatever % to armor....provide more choices right?

I mentioned in an earlier post I played a match tonight when a guy sat on top of echo on the bridge map and was hitting alpha with impunity...a tac can't hit the top of the building at echo from alpha..read the post before you suggest driving a lav or rushing to get close to get on top and kill him please....

Hmm...I like it. Instead of nerfing it just makes it more situational. See I'd rather they give both options a chance. Make one MD super small radius wise, but a lot of DPS, to reward accurate play (careful with RoF and Reload otherwise it'll be a new Flaylock)...then make the other with a lot of radius but less DPS (Splash feels like slightly more than a tickle...70-90 damage a hit)

Honestly, I'm not sure I want a nerf to the md, more just discuss it and come to my own conclusion. I just showed up cause Regnum threads draw out trolls I can laugh at.

Oh yeah, so one guy with a mass driver can do the work of guys guys with different nades....cept contact nades only get one and md's get 6...sounds fair? Honestly I've said before I'd love a nade that balanced out to do 130% to shield and 90 or whatever % to armor....provide more choices right?

I mentioned in an earlier post I played a match tonight when a guy sat on top of echo on the bridge map and was hitting alpha with impunity...a tac can't hit the top of the building at echo from alpha..read the post before you suggest driving a lav or rushing to get close to get on top and kill him please....

Sounds like you got "suppressed". There's always "that guy" doing "that thing" that annoys you when you try to hack an objective when he kills you. The situation you've described is no different than a Sniper or Forge Gun "Suppressing" an objective from atop a tower and they're MUCH harder to get rid of than a Mass Driver.

P.S. I support the implementation of an anti shield grenade that can kill.

Keep the faith.

No Doubt I was being suppressed, and I'm just fine with that...but from a longer range than any other weapon sans forge gun and sniper? Seems a bit extreme. The MD needs something akin to falloff damage..it can send rounds sailing forever, that was the point of the post.

Fluxes and Core locus both come with three. Considering that those two people can wipe out however many people you want to cram into the blast radius of the core locus, complaining about the use of a flux and MD seems needless. It would seem that at least some of the issue stems from the manner in which certain squads role, all jammed together so they can focus fire on their targets. The MD prevents this by forcing squads to spread out. Tactics at its finest.

As to the anecdote of the match, why not grab a sniper rifle and dome the guy? If he was sitting up on a roof, he could have been pegged by tank, forge, sniper, or attacked by dropship. With that many counters, it seems a stretch to be complaining. Also, at that range he was not throwing fluxes, so shield tankers would have been needing at least 3 splashes to get through the shields, so it isn't like you couldn't GTFO in time. It was just a tactical error that allowed him to stay up there. He only had impunity because you refuse to do what was obvious to kill him. Thats on you, not him.

It actually does have a limited range ( shot a long shot at a dropship that should have hit but the round exploded before connection... I think.) it's just ridiculously long. How would CCP justify the falloff though? and then to what degree? the Mass Driver wasn't meant to be a Short Range Weapon, and it's only usable at long range by the EXTREMELY skilled.

No Doubt I was being suppressed, and I'm just fine with that...but from a longer range than any other weapon sans forge gun and sniper? Seems a bit extreme. The MD needs something akin to falloff damage..it can send rounds sailing forever, that was the point of the post.

...Fails to read past relevant post referenced from earlier in the thread...I love ignorant people here. I'm so happy to learn and promote discussion till this happens....

The core you have to cook, the md is a contact grenade, huge difference. And if you read earlier we had this discussion and I even played around with putting all nades to 2 max and only supply depots can resupply them so it stops being grenade spam 514. If that happened and MD's only had 2-3 flux's for the match...then it'd be an area denial weapon, and only forge's would need a slight nerf vs infantry...potentially reducing splash to reward the accurate ones and prevent splash kills from nowhere.

...Fails to read past relevant post referenced from earlier in the thread...I love ignorant people here. I'm so happy to learn and promote discussion till this happens....

The core you have to cook, the md is a contact grenade, huge difference. And if you read earlier we had this discussion and I even played around with putting all nades to 2 max and only supply depots can resupply them so it stops being grenade spam 514. If that happened and MD's only had 2-3 flux's for the match...then it'd be an area denial weapon, and only forge's would need a slight nerf vs infantry...potentially reducing splash to reward the accurate ones and prevent splash kills from nowhere.

Man, you're a really likable guy. Prompting discussion like a boss.

Answer...no ******* clue. How they justify grenades coming out of nanohives is beyond me...or any other number of things..

I agree it takes skills at extremely long range. my problem is with the flux combo contact nade and no falloff damage...I'm less concerned with cip or RoF. Not sure if I know enough to comment intelligently about the dps....but making it 110/90 sounds awesome.

Fluxes and Core locus both come with three. Considering that those two people can wipe out however many people you want to cram into the blast radius of the core locus, complaining about the use of a flux and MD seems needless. It would seem that at least some of the issue stems from the manner in which certain squads role, all jammed together so they can focus fire on their targets. The MD prevents this by forcing squads to spread out. Tactics at its finest.

As to the anecdote of the match, why not grab a sniper rifle and dome the guy? If he was sitting up on a roof, he could have been pegged by tank, forge, sniper, or attacked by dropship. With that many counters, it seems a stretch to be complaining. Also, at that range he was not throwing fluxes, so shield tankers would have been needing at least 3 splashes to get through the shields, so it isn't like you couldn't GTFO in time. It was just a tactical error that allowed him to stay up there. He only had impunity because you refuse to do what was obvious to kill him. Thats on you, not him.

Well I think an appropriate solution might be to have Flux grenades follow the same "Cooking" guidelines as regular grenades. One of the biggest reasons that the Fluxmass Combo is so effective is that the flux grenade can be thrown, and then after two seconds detonate without being cooked. Which means you can engage you opponent very quickly. Whereas cooking a grenade to achieve the same affect would give your opponent time to react to what your doing in a 1v1 scenario. Thoughts?

No Doubt I was being suppressed, and I'm just fine with that...but from a longer range than any other weapon sans forge gun and sniper? Seems a bit extreme. The MD needs something akin to falloff damage..it can send rounds sailing forever, that was the point of the post.

Thats false, and you would know if had actually used a MD

Flux 'nades have the same cooking as standard grenades.

Thats false, and you would know if had actually used a MD

If you're aiming down the reticle and one of the rounds lands near you it totally throws off the cursor and the same effect is repeated with each shot. No matter where you are within the radius, even when so far out of it that you arent harmed that effect triggers and it's ridiculous. It dumb to walk into areas and my screen starts shaking cause an MD is nearby.