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A Possible Solution to Logistics used as Assaults.

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KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 468	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:41:00 - [61] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Cosgar wrote: Why not make the CaLogi racial bonus unstackable with the shield extender bonus and start from there? Sweeping changes are the reason we have Uprising. Let's not make the same mistake again. +1 to avoiding sweeping changes. +20 if I could. +1 same
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1778	Posted - 2013.06.17 12:10:00 - [62] - Quote Tankin Tarkus wrote: Tankin Tarkus wrote: what about changing CalLogi bonus from buffing extenders to buffing regulaters? that would buff their survivability between gunfights instead of during gunfights no one has a comment on this idea? Because everyone is obsessed with buffer tanking and playing run-and-gun CcD 514 to the point that even if anyone knew what they did, they'd be useless when all people do is lay on their trigger and bunny hop while they're reloading.
Vin Mora Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. Interstellar Conquest Enterprises 14	Posted - 2013.06.17 14:25:00 - [63] - Quote How about giving all other suit more Equipment Slots, instead? They are all faster, except for Heavies, and more durable then us, except for Scouts, and all can kill better then use with a sidearm. Also, Logis are the only class that can (properly) defend itself when running A/V weapons.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 121	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:12:00 - [64] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Give them a detriment equal to their advantage. At the moment there is only one downside to running a Logistics Suit as an Assault, and it's nothing comparative to what you gain. This damage reduction would be applicable to ALL Logistics Suits, putting them into a support role, where they should be. Not as a Frontline Attacker. You are welcome to skill into a logistics suit, and if you don't think there are disadvantages to running them you are sadly mistaken. Less shields (on all but the Caldari Logi), less armor, and one less weapon already place these suits on the losing end of many a battle between an Assault suit vs Logi suit battle of the same racial variant. Where I can empty a clip into someone and they are already still standing I need to reload before continuing my assault, you switch to a sidearm and finish the job. Do you really want logistics players to stop helping you? What you ask would put them in Assault suits to be able to survive longer. I would do it if there were a damage reduction on the Logi suit even though I need my equipment slots to provide nanohives for all you ASSaults who seem to think a logi shouldn't be able to kill you when in all reality, with your extra high slots you can put weapon damage upgrades to achieve that effect where I need to put shield extenders to get enough health to be able to supply you with ammo or run to inject a fallen teammate or rep the heavy while under fire. Just because I play logi doesn't make me a GOD. It means that I build my suit to last under fire and my gun is chosen to protect me and my fallen teammate by killing the enemy before reviving him. If you want, me and the other logis can farm WP all day by dropping you and raising you to be shot again, it won't hurt my KDR but maybe it will hurt yours. Some of your confusion about skill level is apparent, when you see me and my brethren (LOGIBROS) running across the field to hack objectives and placing equipment in the C-1 or G-1 or M-1 or even the A-1 suit often we have the ability to use proto gear and simply do not due to cost. The cost of that Proto gear is why all weapons need to do damage the same regardless of the suit its on. Should your uplinks/nanohives/nanite injectors/reptools affect your fellow mercs less or allow less ammo or reps or spawns just because the merc deploying it is in an ASSault suit? I think not. I would wager they deserve it to function the same way mine do because they spend the same amount of SP on it I do just as I spend the same amount of SP on my AR as you do. If you are getting killed by a logi in any logi suit consider the fact that many of us in logi suits have been around since the start of Open Beta and some of us since the start of Closed Beta. Consistently finding Logis that can kill you means that we are often highly skilled players/high SP toons and are not pushovers. Don't be that guy who complains that they're OP because they kill me every time, be the guy who learns from mistakes and makes it a challenge to kill you. As a Logibro, my KDR is more often not positive, I am not a killing machine yet my WP puts me on the top of the leaderboard 8/10 times. Why? Because I bring to the field the balance that you as an assault player do not, the healing of your armor and the resupply of your bullets, the spawn behind enemy lines and the hacking of an objective that you cannot because there are too many people shooting you. Is my gun weaker? No. Do I kill players? Yes but my focus is on the team goal not my KDR and not on rushing the enemy for kills. I bring my squad with me when I move, when I need to reload they are finishing off the enemy I started killing. I am a frontline player, but so is the rest of my squad. Everytime. I play to win and yes my gun will hurt you, just as yours hurts me but I can't count the number of times a Militia X weapon has taken me out. I am slower than you, why do I make it to the objective first? Why are you not running out into the groups of enemies to help your teammates? Can I count on you for armor or ammo? Will you pick me up IF I get killed? With your higher shield and armor totals I expect far more out of you than hiding behind a rock while I lead a charge on an objective to be repeatedly killed so that you can protect your precious KDR. You want your weapons to do more damage? Great, theres a skill for that.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 384	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:21:00 - [65] - Quote Cosgar wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Also, Caldari Logi bonus is not OP... its just that every other logi racial is crap. Logistics passive reps is OP if anything is. Bro, do you even Logi? That passive HP bonus is for survivability. Logis can repair everyone else, but who repairs them? Yes, I run Caldari Logi. I could easily fit a passive armor rep module on my suit, like any logi with 4+ lows (except amarr but they dont count since they have a completely different layout).
DJINN Jecture Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 17	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:29:00 - [66] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment (You forgot the - More slots (Nine hi/lo) which is a tremendous advantage) My proto mini logi only has 4-4-4. The Cal Logi has 5-3-4, the Gal Logi has 3-4-5. Flux vs Cal Logi nullifies whatever racial bonus and 5 high slots they have. Which other suit can claim that one piece of equipment does that to thier bonuses? Their armor amount at level 5 armor upgrades makes them a 2 bullet kill with the right gun and they may not need to rep armor but unless they use Shield regulators (maxed out) they take a good 7-10 seconds before they get any more health. Thats 7-10 seconds of kitten kitten kitten. The Caldari Logi is perfectly balanced from what I can tell. If they are causing problems for you then you obviously need flux grenades.
Galthur CrimeWave Syndicate 57	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:31:00 - [67] - Quote Django Quik wrote: There are 2 ways to stop logis being used as assaults: 1) replace the light weapon slot with a sidearm slot only or 2) remove at least half of the hi and low slots I hope you know ONLY proto variants have problems so why can't we give assaults 1 more slot and problem solved, stop trying to overnerf
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 121	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:40:00 - [68] - Quote Galthur wrote: Django Quik wrote: There are 2 ways to stop logis being used as assaults: 1) replace the light weapon slot with a sidearm slot only or 2) remove at least half of the hi and low slots I hope you know ONLY proto variants have problems so why can't we give assaults 1 more slot and problem solved, stop trying to overnerf The proto variants don't have problems...they are a high SP required suit. If it were supposed to be equal with a base level logi there would be no need to skill into the proto. Also I think we shoould remove an equipment slot from the Assault class, they don't need it, they also don't need armor or shields so we can take those too. They are supposed to assault, not hide when the logis come running at them.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1793	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:42:00 - [69] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Cosgar wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Also, Caldari Logi bonus is not OP... its just that every other logi racial is crap. Logistics passive reps is OP if anything is. Bro, do you even Logi? That passive HP bonus is for survivability. Logis can repair everyone else, but who repairs them? Yes, I run Caldari Logi. I could easily fit a passive armor rep module on my suit, like any logi with 4+ lows (except amarr but they dont count since they have a completely different layout). You're comparing a suit geared toward shield tanking with armor tanking suits and saying it's OP...
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 468	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:42:00 - [70] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: I'm no logi, but what if you simply took 1H and 1L and gave an additional Equip. Slot to all logis. Then Amarr Proto Logi would be, what, 2 high and 2 low slots? Not sweet. Everyone please consider not all logi suits are the same. It's true that Caldari logi is too good, but not all logis as a whole. Min and Gal seem fine.

KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 468	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:56:00 - [71] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment (You forgot the - More slots (Nine hi/lo) which is a tremendous advantage) My proto mini logi only has 4-4-4. The Cal Logi has 5-3-4, the Gal Logi has 3-4-5. Flux vs Cal Logi nullifies whatever racial bonus and 5 high slots they have. Which other suit can claim that one piece of equipment does that to thier bonuses? Their armor amount at level 5 armor upgrades makes them a 2 bullet kill with the right gun and they may not need to rep armor but unless they use Shield regulators (maxed out) they take a good 7-10 seconds before they get any more health. Thats 7-10 seconds of kitten kitten kitten. The Caldari Logi is perfectly balanced from what I can tell. If they are causing problems for you then you obviously need flux grenades. OFC I was talking about CAL logi which has the slot advantage in addition to racial bonus advantage on the field of survival. Fluxes are too situational, they are far LESS scary than locus grenades even for shield tankers as you won't be instakilled but rather have nice chance to step into cover. The armor difference is not that big, excluding armor tank fits themselves. Shield depletion recharge timer is NOT 7-10 for proto Cal Logi. With single regulator (always easily fitted) the time naked is somewhere 3-4 secs. Maybe less. And that's shield OUT timer.
DJINN Jecture Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 18	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:02:00 - [72] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment (You forgot the - More slots (Nine hi/lo) which is a tremendous advantage) My proto mini logi only has 4-4-4. The Cal Logi has 5-3-4, the Gal Logi has 3-4-5. Flux vs Cal Logi nullifies whatever racial bonus and 5 high slots they have. Which other suit can claim that one piece of equipment does that to thier bonuses? Their armor amount at level 5 armor upgrades makes them a 2 bullet kill with the right gun and they may not need to rep armor but unless they use Shield regulators (maxed out) they take a good 7-10 seconds before they get any more health. Thats 7-10 seconds of kitten kitten kitten. The Caldari Logi is perfectly balanced from what I can tell. If they are causing problems for you then you obviously need flux grenades. OFC I was talking about CAL logi which has the slot advantage in addition to racial bonus advantage on the field of survival. Fluxes are too situational, they are far LESS scary than locus grenades even for shield tankers as you won't be instakilled but rather have nice chance to step into cover. The armor difference is not that big, excluding armor tank fits themselves. Shield depletion recharge timer is NOT 7-10 for proto Cal Logi. With single regulator (always easily fitted) the time naked is somewhere 3-4 secs. Maybe less. And that's shield OUT timer. Right and you still have a problem shooting and killing them? You must not have that new scrambler rifle that cuts through shields..... or a flux grenade or a logibro to resupply you with flux grenades or an RE which would insta kill that logi...
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 468	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:32:00 - [73] - Quote Okay, I'm gonna summarize things here: Background facts: - Not all logi suits are the same, they have very different power levels at the moment. - Before buffing/nerfing, one has to identify if they should be applied to a single branch of suits or entire line. - Assault rifles are quite good and very general use which is intended. - As long as assault rifles work as intended the lack of sidearm isn't that grave. For other weps, it is. - TAC AR clip size nerf had deeper impact on TAC AR logis - No-one wants any sweeping changes with nerfhammer, that would wipe out everything learned from current balance state. Analysis on the Caldari Logi suit: Caldari Logi suit is the one heavily being used as pure assault instead of real assaults. This is the one people are unhappy about, even though some of them notice only the logi part not the racial type. It truly works marvellous in the assault role. Reasons one: the racial bonus is strong and can be considered combat-oriented (although higher HP helps in supporting role of course). Reason two: Slot layout of 5 high and 4 low totaling NINE us great. That is emphasized by the fact that logi suits have tons of PG/CPU (as intended for fitting equipment) which can be first used to take max advantage out of those nine slots, leaving lower tier equipment for Eq slots. Reason three: Not as great advantage but still contributing: Very good shield recharge values, especially the delay. Analysis on anti-shield oriented weapons: Since uprising anti-shield weapons have finally have emerged, great. Their effect is however just 'noticable' and cannot be considered as counter for anything well-balanced utilizing heavy shielding. If shields would be one of the few strong attributes then the anti-shield weps might have counter value. [SUGGESTIONS:] Note: Tunedowns only for Caldari Logis, others should stay as they are (well Amarr buffed but that's another topic) First: Remove the extra High slot from CA Logis along with small amount of PG+CPU. This would set CA logi in line with other logis as well as reducing the advantage gained from Extenders and Damage Mods. Second:IF first tunedown isn't enough, change CA Logi racial bonus to something more support oriented. As a small tune-down option: Tweak shield recharge/delay values so it compares better to CA Assault. PS: The writer IS running maximized TAC AR - CA LOGI while fighting against the same in a weak infantry skill alt
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 468	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:43:00 - [74] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: (You forgot the - More slots (Nine hi/lo) which is a tremendous advantage) My proto mini logi only has 4-4-4. The Cal Logi has 5-3-4, the Gal Logi has 3-4-5. Flux vs Cal Logi nullifies whatever racial bonus and 5 high slots they have. Which other suit can claim that one piece of equipment does that to thier bonuses? Their armor amount at level 5 armor upgrades makes them a 2 bullet kill with the right gun and they may not need to rep armor but unless they use Shield regulators (maxed out) they take a good 7-10 seconds before they get any more health. Thats 7-10 seconds of kitten kitten kitten. The Caldari Logi is perfectly balanced from what I can tell. If they are causing problems for you then you obviously need flux grenades. OFC I was talking about CAL logi which has the slot advantage in addition to racial bonus advantage on the field of survival. Fluxes are too situational, they are far LESS scary than locus grenades even for shield tankers as you won't be instakilled but rather have nice chance to step into cover. The armor difference is not that big, excluding armor tank fits themselves. Shield depletion recharge timer is NOT 7-10 for proto Cal Logi. With single regulator (always easily fitted) the time naked is somewhere 3-4 secs. Maybe less. And that's shield OUT timer. Right and you still have a problem shooting and killing them? You must not have that new scrambler rifle that cuts through shields..... or a flux grenade or a logibro to resupply you with flux grenades or an RE which would insta kill that logi... And you still think everyone pointing out things too strong are QQing as they are killed by them? I hoped you would've realised that's not the case, but let's underline it here: I run personally TAC AR Caldari Logi in an assault role. And it feels like GODMODE. A little less after TAC AR nerf, but st+¡ll the combo pwns above my actual skill level. (ofc still the best of the best down me more than I do them - you know who you are) And I'm asking for that to be balanced out from that level.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 123	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:58:00 - [75] - Quote Out of all the arguments for a nerf the one topic that consistantly is brought up are their shields. The flux grenade is the counter. It is fully anti shield and I can carry 3 of them at a time. If you want to dedicate an assault suit to killing caldari logis then you need 3 things. 1 flux grenades 2 scrambler rifle (proto if possible) 3 M-3 nanohive for grenade resupply. This can be done with any assault class suit even the militia assault and be successful. There is always a counter to the Cal Logi and as such it is balanced, just because it works for more than one thing well does not mean it needs a nerf.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 721	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:06:00 - [76] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: I think most people are aware of the Caldari Logistics ability to tank. It's written plain as day in their description, and it's being abused under the current mechanic. Not because it's a bad mechanic, but the fact there is NO downside to running said Logi... you give up a Sidearm, to gain: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment I have a simple solution. Reduce the damage done by logistics Suits by 30-40%, across the board. Just a flat reduction in 'weapons' damage. (So Remote Explosives, Grenades etc are still as effective, but your guns are not.) Give them a detriment equal to their advantage. At the moment there is only one downside to running a Logistics Suit as an Assault, and it's nothing comparative to what you gain. This damage reduction would be applicable to ALL Logistics Suits, putting them into a support role, where they should be. Not as a Frontline Attacker. **** Off
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:13:00 - [77] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment (You forgot the - More slots (Nine hi/lo) which is a tremendous advantage) My proto mini logi only has 4-4-4. The Cal Logi has 5-3-4, the Gal Logi has 3-4-5. Flux vs Cal Logi nullifies whatever racial bonus and 5 high slots they have. Which other suit can claim that one piece of equipment does that to thier bonuses? Their armor amount at level 5 armor upgrades makes them a 2 bullet kill with the right gun and they may not need to rep armor but unless they use Shield regulators (maxed out) they take a good 7-10 seconds before they get any more health. Thats 7-10 seconds of kitten kitten kitten. The Caldari Logi is perfectly balanced from what I can tell. If they are causing problems for you then you obviously need flux grenades. This, one flux and I'm squishier than a scout.
Flint Beastgood III GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 4	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:13:00 - [78] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Flaws in the OP Cal Logi suit balance is not equal to Cal Logi Racial Skill balance Cal Logi suit + racial skill balance is not equal to Logi suit balance across all races (indeed these suits are not equal) Nerfing Logi damage buffs Logi suits with the most High Power slots, when combined with the current racial skill this makes the Cal Logi more of a problem when balanced against all other Logi racial types. Reasoning is not presented explaining how suits aside from the Cal Logi are a problem Fittings & numbers are not presented to support or explain how any Logi suit is a problem[/b] Not all Logi suits have higher PG & CPU than their races Assault suit Not all Logis have more Shields than their races Assault suit,in point of fact none of them do]/b] The statement "but the fact there is NO downside to running said Logi... you give up a Sidearm..." is not factual. Logi suits have lower base stats almost across the board when compared with their racial Assault counterparts. This results in lower total/raw values gained per level in passive base skills related to suits. Further when building fits a Logi suit built to at minimum meet the stats of an equivalently geared and skilled Assault fit the Logi fit requires on average higher SP and ISK buy in to use and deploy said fit. Quoted from another thread and used many times before Cross Atu wrote: The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. [sic] 0.02 ISK Cross Take the challenge and post some actual fits, but let me state one obvious aspect right out of the gate, balancing the Logi suits around either the Cal or Amarr suits is bad balance. Neither of those types is balanced, the Cal Logi skill buff is overpowered, and the Amarr suit is gimped. On a closing note it is the underwhelming nature of the Assault suit skill buffs providing inadequate 'gank' support, combined with the Cal Logi suit buff being OP'ed that is at the crux of the issue suit base values being altered is not a good method for balancing deficiencies within skill balance. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: An additional note, the idea that a Logi focused on support is somehow effective/equally viable with other roles on the field if you remove it's combat capacity is fundamentally flawed. The inability to contribute to a fight (note: not saying perform the role of an Assault or Heavy, simply not have to be carried to maintain baseline survival) makes any class a liability not an asset. I've run full [b]support Logi since CODEX, I was one of those few guys who kept running the Repair Tool while there were no WP on it. I'm one of the few who keeps running the Injector right now even though it's riddled with bugs currently and it's been made clear to me in no uncertain terms, as a support Logi, if I can't pull my weight in a fight my team is better off with another 'slayer' role. I say this as someone who has run with many Corps and squad types in all game modes so it's not drawn from a limited context. Good post Cross, well put. It was bad enough with the Uprising update forcing me to run a medium basic frame as I couldn't afford my Advanced Logi, if Logis were to get nerfed I'd be calling for another respec or deleting the game. Bad feedback/suggestions are f'ing this game up.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 123	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:14:00 - [79] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: And you still think everyone pointing out things too strong are QQing as they are killed by them? Yes At least about this they are... No offense Cross because you raise some really good points, I believe anyone who can put together his challenge suits should and quick before CCP nerfs/buffs something out of proportion and causes unnecesary QQ.
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 92	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:15:00 - [80] - Quote A sidearm is a wonderful slot to have. If you've ever played without one with a weapon that has a small amount of rounds then you will know this. I have died countless times because my mass driver is reloading for what seems like 5 seconds(probably closer to 3 - I can't find the spreadsheet that was put out so if anyone has a link I would appreciate it) while the enemy simply switches to a sidearm and kills me. Giving up a sidearm slot is not giving up nothing it is a huge detriment to the logistics class. If the logistics were to have their light weapon slot taken away then the support weapons would need to change class as well - any weapon that can't be used exclusively to win a match(basically leaving only scrambler rifles and assault rifles as the only light weapons). But hey if we're discussing overreaching nerfs then how about these: -Assaults should only get half of the ammo capacity and lose the equipment slot - because assault suits kill me with bullets - what the hell make assault and screambler rifles shoot nerf darts as well. -Scouts should lose the equipment slot as well and make siren noises when they move - because scouts kill me by sneaking up on me or use remote explosives. -Heavies have already been nerfed so nothing needs to be done, although making tuba noises when they walk would be funny. -Dropships should only be able to equip a sidearm in their weapon slots and send to the pilot to a random seat every 30 seconds switching with player who has crashed the most dropships if no seat is available - because dropships hover out of range and shoot at me, then when they realize they can't kill me try to crush me -LAVs should only be able to move backwards and have a fixed front facing view with tunnel vision - the reason should be obvious -HAVs should have fixed turrets(no elevation or turning) and not be able to activate more than one module at a time and will have to wait until all modules are ready for use before they can use them - because when a tank can see me it can kill me fairly easily and using modules gives them an unfair advantage over me with the basic swarm launcher and packed av grenades. Vin Mora wrote: How about giving all other suit more Equipment Slots, instead? They are all faster, except for Heavies, and more durable then us, except for Scouts, and all can kill better then use with a sidearm. Also, Logis are the only class that can (properly) defend itself when running A/V weapons. The other classes don't need an extra equipment slot and would only lead to people complaining about the obscene amounts of remote explosives and proximity mines left laying about, Logis are the only class not able to defend themselves against infantry if they're running as anti-vehicle(which I assume you mean swarm launcher because anyone can carry av grnades).

Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1809	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:25:00 - [81] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: This, one flux and I'm squishier than a scout. The problem with that is flux grenades still suffer from the same terrain glitches as all splash damage weapons.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 242	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:40:00 - [82] - Quote Stile451 wrote: -Heavies have already been nerfed so nothing needs to be done, although making tuba noises when they walk would be funny. This is OP everyone would die laughing.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 125	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:52:00 - [83] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: This, one flux and I'm squishier than a scout. The problem with that is flux grenades still suffer from the same terrain glitches as all splash damage weapons. Maybe you just need to learn how to throw like a girl. They don't suffer from terrain glitches, we all suffer from terrain glitches. Nerf terrain is what this thread should be about.
Jammer Jalapeno BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate 25	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:54:00 - [84] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: I think most people are aware of the Caldari Logistics ability to tank. It's written plain as day in their description, and it's being abused under the current mechanic. Not because it's a bad mechanic, but the fact there is NO downside to running said Logi... you give up a Sidearm, to gain: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment I have a simple solution. Reduce the damage done by logistics Suits by 30-40%, across the board. Just a flat reduction in 'weapons' damage. (So Remote Explosives, Grenades etc are still as effective, but your guns are not.) Give them a detriment equal to their advantage. At the moment there is only one downside to running a Logistics Suit as an Assault, and it's nothing comparative to what you gain. This damage reduction would be applicable to ALL Logistics Suits, putting them into a support role, where they should be. Not as a Frontline Attacker. No that is just cruel....quite often I will have to fight off a pack of people just to revive a squad member. I need to bite just as hard as the rest. Oh yea and BTW I only get 1 weapon.... I don't have the luxury of switching to a side arm when my bullets run out.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 125	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:55:00 - [85] - Quote Jammer Jalapeno wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: I think most people are aware of the Caldari Logistics ability to tank. It's written plain as day in their description, and it's being abused under the current mechanic. Not because it's a bad mechanic, but the fact there is NO downside to running said Logi... you give up a Sidearm, to gain: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment I have a simple solution. Reduce the damage done by logistics Suits by 30-40%, across the board. Just a flat reduction in 'weapons' damage. (So Remote Explosives, Grenades etc are still as effective, but your guns are not.) Give them a detriment equal to their advantage. At the moment there is only one downside to running a Logistics Suit as an Assault, and it's nothing comparative to what you gain. This damage reduction would be applicable to ALL Logistics Suits, putting them into a support role, where they should be. Not as a Frontline Attacker. No that is just cruel....quite often I will have to fight off a pack of people just to revive a squad member. I need to bite just as hard as the rest. Exactly my point.
Flint Beastgood III GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:14:00 - [86] - Quote Jammer Jalapeno wrote: ....quite often I will have to fight off a pack of people just to revive a squad member. I need to bite just as hard as the rest. Oh yea and BTW I only get 1 weapon.... I don't have the luxury of switching to a side arm when my bullets run out. Yep. You're no good as support if you're dead on the floor - a problem I constantly face in my Logi G/1 fittings, which are extremely expensive to fit if I want to be able to survive as well as support.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 126	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:29:00 - [87] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: TV Repair Guy wrote: Don't change anything, flux grenades are devastating enough to shield-tankers. If I hear flux going off I have to run scared because my armor is so squishy. The assault bonus just isn't that good, and most people are carrying AV grenades to cope with murder taxis. Instead of making logistics suits worthless like the crybabies want, improve the assault class bonus. I like the logistics suit and I can be a frontline attacker if I feel like it, GTFO. Logistics Suits are designed to 'Support' not Attack... A Tanky Support member is a boon to a team. Logistics are MEANT to be support roles. It comes with the territory. This isn't a hi creative solution, this is a simple solution that would stop people abusing Logistics... as stated above, giving up your sidearm for all the benefits.. While Caldari Logistics are currently the most noted, the other logistics do gain all of the above, with the exception of the Higher Shield HP. Minmatar Hacking Bonus, indicates a Support function. Gallente Equipment PG / CPU reduction indicates a Support function. Amarr LKogistics bonus increases survivability. Caldari Logistics Bonus indicates survivability. I wouldn't question Survivability, if it was tempered by a greater reduction in it's combat ability. ala Logistics LAV. You mean the yellow murder taxi right? The one that has more HP than anything else on the field and doesn't need to reload its bumper? It doesn't have a reduced combat potential it has an increased survivability rate which is detrimental to troops without AV as they are most often receiving the bumper in the back/front/right/left side of their suit along with the intense hatred of all vehicles LAV. The Caldari's survivability is laughable when compared with my Proto Galente Logi. It has a god mode most definitely as do Heavy suits and anyone else who cares to experiment with what can work well, having some extra HP.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1176	Posted - 2013.06.18 05:07:00 - [88] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: And you still think everyone pointing out things too strong are QQing as they are killed by them? Yes At least about this they are... No offense Cross because you raise some really good points, I believe anyone who can put together his challenge suits should and quick before CCP nerfs/buffs something out of proportion and causes unnecesary QQ. When I find something is killing me a lot I put together a counter suit that is equally devastating to my opponent, I don't hop on here and say _______ is OP nerf it, it kills me. If you are in a position where you are killing a lot of people then you may have gotten your fit right and it is just the matchmaking system that is messed up. No offense taken at all I'd love to see some fits being posted. I'm not terrible at fittings especially given time I can usually come up with some good ones but I'm far from considering myself the final word on the subject (I honestly don't think anyone is ) so more actual fittings input would be great. At present I'm still convinced that not logi suit needs a nerf (the Amarr should get a PG buff and maybe a low slot to keep up with the other logi suits). The Cal Logi likely needs a light tone down of 1-2% on it's racial to keep it in line with the rest of the logi suits, but even that I wouldn't do until the bugs are fixed because Flux and Contact nades are both going to become more effective when those bugs go and that's likely to be a real kick in the pants for the Cal Logi (even running basic flux under the current bugged conditions I find the Cal Logi to be pretty readily countered once I'm inside of nade tossing range). More nerfs before the major bugs are fixed and features like the Academy and Matchmaking are improved is likely a very poor balance decision. Any major/sweeping nefs are almost certain to be improper (pure luck notwithstanding). Cheers, Cross
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 92	Posted - 2013.06.18 06:53:00 - [89] - Quote Flint Beastgood III wrote: Jammer Jalapeno wrote: ....quite often I will have to fight off a pack of people just to revive a squad member. I need to bite just as hard as the rest. Oh yea and BTW I only get 1 weapon.... I don't have the luxury of switching to a side arm when my bullets run out. Yep. You're no good as support if you're dead on the floor - a problem I constantly face in my Logi G/1 fittings, which are extremely expensive to fit if I want to be able to survive as well as support. I don't even want to skill up into the Proto Logi, as I don't see the point of it's use in pub matches ( because the risk/reward doesn't balance out) and unfortunately I do not meet the minimum SP requirements of my Corp for PC battles. The 2 extra HP/s is worth it imo. You don't need to use the proto suit to reap the rewards of the skill. Also, one day you will want it and it's one of the harder skills to grind for - get it sooner rather than later to get it out of the way.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 255	Posted - 2013.06.18 07:07:00 - [90] - Quote TV Repair Guy wrote: Don't change anything, flux grenades are devastating enough to shield-tankers. If I hear flux going off I have to run scared because my armor is so squishy. The assault bonus just isn't that good, and most people are carrying AV grenades to cope with murder taxis. Instead of making logistics suits worthless like the crybabies want, improve the assault class bonus. I like the logistics suit and I can be a frontline attacker if I feel like it, GTFO. And that's gonna help the who game how? Instead of having one OP suit you would have two? Is that a step toward balancing the game? Ppl who run heavy and lol scout are already a slim enthusiast minority.



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