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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1161	Posted - 2013.06.16 16:56:00 - [1] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: I think most people are aware of the Caldari Logistics ability to tank. It's written plain as day in their description, and it's being abused under the current mechanic. Not because it's a bad mechanic, but the fact there is NO downside to running said Logi... you give up a Sidearm, to gain: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment I have a simple solution. Reduce the damage done by logistics Suits by 30-40%, across the board. Just a flat reduction in 'weapons' damage. (So Remote Explosives, Grenades etc are still as effective, but your guns are not.) Give them a detriment equal to their advantage. At the moment there is only one downside to running a Logistics Suit as an Assault, and it's nothing comparative to what you gain. This damage reduction would be applicable to ALL Logistics Suits, putting them into a support role, where they should be. Not as a Frontline Attacker. Flaws in the OP Cal Logi suit balance is not equal to Cal Logi Racial Skill balance Cal Logi suit + racial skill balance is not equal to Logi suit balance across all races (indeed these suits are not equal) Nerfing Logi damage buffs Logi suits with the most High Power slots, when combined with the current racial skill this makes the Cal Logi more of a problem when balanced against all other Logi racial types. Reasoning is not presented explaining how suits aside from the Cal Logi are a problem Fittings & numbers are not presented to support or explain how any Logi suit is a problem[/b] Not all Logi suits have higher PG & CPU than their races Assault suit Not all Logis have more Shields than their races Assault suit,in point of fact none of them do]/b] The statement "but the fact there is NO downside to running said Logi... you give up a Sidearm..." is not factual. Logi suits have lower base stats almost across the board when compared with their racial Assault counterparts. This results in lower total/raw values gained per level in passive base skills related to suits. Further when building fits a Logi suit built to at minimum meet the stats of an equivalently geared and skilled Assault fit the Logi fit requires on average higher SP and ISK buy in to use and deploy said fit. Quoted from another thread and used many times before Cross Atu wrote: The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. [sic] 0.02 ISK Cross Take the challenge and post some actual fits, but let me state one obvious aspect right out of the gate, balancing the Logi suits around either the Cal or Amarr suits is bad balance. Neither of those types is balanced, the Cal Logi skill buff is overpowered, and the Amarr suit is gimped. On a closing note it is the underwhelming nature of the Assault suit skill buffs providing inadequate 'gank' support, combined with the Cal Logi suit buff being OP'ed that is at the crux of the issue suit base values being altered is not a good method for balancing deficiencies within [b]skill balance. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1161	Posted - 2013.06.16 17:05:00 - [2] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Why not make the CaLogi racial bonus unstackable with the shield extender bonus and start from there? Sweeping changes are the reason we have Uprising. Let's not make the same mistake again. +1 to avoiding sweeping changes. +20 if I could.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1165	Posted - 2013.06.16 20:25:00 - [3] - Quote I'll re-post the standards of the challenge again if need be but seriously for those contending that Logi suits need a nerf, especially a drastic one like removing the light weapon slot or other hard cap on possible weapon use/dps please build a fit (or you know more than one if it's not only one specific fit that's broken) that supports the contention there needs to be a nerf. Further build this fit without use of any weapon from the AR line (if this cannot be accomplished than the imbalance may not be within the logi line at all ). There are other elements to the challenge which I'll re-post upon request, but so far I've still not gotten any takers that I'm aware of (if someone knows otherwise please link it for me).... and honestly having been posting this challenge for weeks now in threads on this subject with no real response, it's pretty telling. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1176	Posted - 2013.06.18 05:07:00 - [4] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: And you still think everyone pointing out things too strong are QQing as they are killed by them? Yes At least about this they are... No offense Cross because you raise some really good points, I believe anyone who can put together his challenge suits should and quick before CCP nerfs/buffs something out of proportion and causes unnecesary QQ. When I find something is killing me a lot I put together a counter suit that is equally devastating to my opponent, I don't hop on here and say _______ is OP nerf it, it kills me. If you are in a position where you are killing a lot of people then you may have gotten your fit right and it is just the matchmaking system that is messed up. No offense taken at all I'd love to see some fits being posted. I'm not terrible at fittings especially given time I can usually come up with some good ones but I'm far from considering myself the final word on the subject (I honestly don't think anyone is ) so more actual fittings input would be great. At present I'm still convinced that not logi suit needs a nerf (the Amarr should get a PG buff and maybe a low slot to keep up with the other logi suits). The Cal Logi likely needs a light tone down of 1-2% on it's racial to keep it in line with the rest of the logi suits, but even that I wouldn't do until the bugs are fixed because Flux and Contact nades are both going to become more effective when those bugs go and that's likely to be a real kick in the pants for the Cal Logi (even running basic flux under the current bugged conditions I find the Cal Logi to be pretty readily countered once I'm inside of nade tossing range). More nerfs before the major bugs are fixed and features like the Academy and Matchmaking are improved is likely a very poor balance decision. Any major/sweeping nefs are almost certain to be improper (pure luck notwithstanding). Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1176	Posted - 2013.06.19 00:01:00 - [5] - Quote Halcyon MI1 wrote: First off, I know this has been talked over a thousand times. [sic] so try to keep it civil. Ok, before I respond to the rest of the post I'd like to say a couple things about the bits I've quoted. First thank you for making an effort to keep things civil, cheers to that o7 Second, since we're talking about things that have been stated a thousand times over would you be willing and able to accept my challenge and provide is with fits that support the idea there's an actual disparity? Please inform me if you don't know what challenge I'm talking about and I will be happy to repost the method/standards of the challenge. I am completely open to discussion on this topic but what I'm not open too is discussion of a nerf (on this or any other feature) without substantiation of the concept that there is indeed a problem, hence my fittings challenge. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1176	Posted - 2013.06.19 00:21:00 - [6] - Quote cy6 wrote: 1. Remove assault/basic frame equip slot and give to scout/light frame 2. Decrease 1H 1L per tier for logi suits. 3. Increase logi CPU/PG done Please post fits that show 1)Current Logi suit balance is improper within Med Frame line (note: suit balance not racial skill balance) 2)Post fits that use your suggested alterations showing how these changes are improvements along with descriptions of the intended role for each fit and why that fit best servers it. Use fittings standers as per my "logi challenge", if you haven't seen one of these posts please inform me and I shall provide a link. I look forward to seeing your proposed fittings. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1179	Posted - 2013.06.19 01:45:00 - [7] - Quote cy6 wrote: Cross Atu wrote: cy6 wrote: 1. Remove assault/basic frame equip slot and give to scout/light frame 2. Decrease 1H 1L per tier for logi suits. 3. Increase logi CPU/PG done Please post fits that show 1)Current Logi suit balance is improper within Med Frame line (note: suit balance not racial skill balance) 2)Post fits that use your suggested alterations showing how these changes are improvements along with descriptions of the intended role for each fit and why that fit best servers it. Use fittings standers as per my "logi challenge", if you haven't seen one of these posts please inform me and I shall provide a link. I look forward to seeing your proposed fittings. Cheers, Cross I would, but I'm busy playing. but as a preview 1. Scouts had 2 equipment slots prior to uprising and it was not unbalanced. 2 slots give scouts uplink + needle/explosive (keep in mind that scout cpu/pg is too low to fit super sniper + complex damage + nanohive + uplink) 2. Removing equip slots of assaults forces them to rely on logi's to supply ammo (or supply depo), thus preventing lone wolfing and encouraging assaults to run with a logi 3. Removing 1H+1L of each logi prevents them from taking the role of the assault's high EHP for frontline battle role and encourages a more supportive role (revive/repair/supply). However, the increase of CPU/PG will still allow them to stack complex/shield mods for survivability even on an advanced suit without hindering them from carrying equipment. Personally, i would remove the basic frame suits altogether as well as the racial bonuses (but keep the role specific bonuses). I look forward to seeing the actual fittings once you get to it. Do you need me to repost the standards of the fittings challenge or do you know them/know where to find them? Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1179	Posted - 2013.06.19 01:46:00 - [8] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Jastad wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: @Draco Cerberus No, actually, I need to prove nothing to you. I will not be bullied into thinking otherwise. No it's not being bullied. IT's called READ BEFORE POST. We all made a 9 page thread of answer. if you BOTHER to read, you'll see the all the LOGI are for a rework of the Cal.LOGI, the only e real problem. Because, and that are stat talking ( feel free to search COSGAR Thread or CROSS ATU reply in this thread) LOGI are inferior to their Ass counterpart. and again, stop counting what you do in pubscrub match, thta dosent count in balance terms. Jeez they did with the Heavy and look what we have now.... I still stand by my assertion that Logis can make due with just a Sidearm Slot. Also, so you know, I tried getting Heavys buffed (aside from their movement speed). I'd be interested in your participation in the Logi fittings challenge in support of this stance. Do you have the standards or would you like a link?
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1179	Posted - 2013.06.19 02:14:00 - [9] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: I'd like a link to see if our standards match, feel free to contact me in game as well. If we share opinions on this matter, we might be able to progress made on the matter. I'm going to just quote it here to save you digging through my wall-o-text in the other post Cross Atu wrote: Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results I'd totally be down to link up in game and compare notes/run some matches to see what we can nail down. I am a big fan of testing things and while I'm fairly open (maybe even loud?) about my opinions I don't want that misconstrued as being closed to changing them. I actually like having my assessments challenged with information Also feel free to toss me an in game mail with your most frequent times and/or a chat to meet in. I'll do the same and we'll see what we can hash out. Cheers, Cross ps ~ advanced warning, I have kids so my play times are sporadic.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1183	Posted - 2013.06.19 17:06:00 - [10] - Quote Speaking as someone who used only a sidearms for an entire build having them be your only weapon (outside of certain specific scout suit configurations, I'm looking at you Nova Knives) isn't very viable and most certainly does reduce your ability to effectively support your team. The side arm only idea is frankly not viable. While I am sure that there are some who could make it work they are a minority not an average and thus not a good point to balance around. Further re-balancing the suits due to a skill related issue is simply and bluntly bad balance practice. The Minmitar Logi has been the same suit since closed beta and none of these threads showed up until after Uprising. The Amarr Logi is weaker than the rest of the Logi line including the Min Logi, as such can it can be discounted out of hand. That leaves the Cal and Gal Logi and it's the Cal Logi that one sees a pervasive presence of not the Gal Logi, further Gal Logi relies on the UP armor tank, making it even slower, to gain it's utility and it's racial bonus is to fitting equipment slots. Turning our attention to the Cal Logi it's eHP is drastically reduced without it's racial and in nearly all other respects it is inferior to the Cal Assault suit having to pay via ISK/SP/Slots to compensate for it's baseline shortfalls as compared with it's Assault brother. So while the Cal Logi does outperform the rest of the Logi line it's not the suit it's the racial skill, and if armor weren't < shields that gap would be smaller. Many posters here like to gloss over the import of speed to survival, this is quite frankly a mistake. Think about what a Heavy would be if it moved at Assault speed? Think about how dead a scout would be if it moved at below Assault speed (aka Logi speed) even if it were faster than the Heavies. The gap between speed values on the medium frames is less most certainly but Assaults are geared for Shield tanking and Logi, if they are more geared for armor tanking if they are to make use of their role skill (clearly the Cal Logis racial buff trumps this). Meaning that on average the Logi is even slower once tanked while the Assault maintains their, already superior, initial baseline. Even ignoring this telescoping effect on speed values a little speed can make or break a hot gun battle. Getting to cover a little faster can save your life. Strafing a little faster than your opponent can get you the kill. Circling around a piece of cover a little faster can get you behind an enemy. Moving a little faster than someone you're chasing means you catch them. Moving a little faster than someone casing you means you escape them. A little speed is combat relevant. But suppose for a second that I'm wrong and that a little speed is meaningless, that's just a sign that CCP needs to take another look at movement values game wide so that movement is relevant. And even if movement weren't relevant (which I firmly contend it is) that still leaves all the other on board base stats of the Assault that are superior, a superiority increased when SP is invested into % based passive skills. I final note to provide context for what "A little speed" is in this context. It takes a 10% buff to bring Logi speed up to that of an Assaults base value, assuming the Logi is using not armor whatsoever, a value just 2% less than the Proto type Kinetic Catalyzer and that's before we even include the higher stamina and stamina recovery rate on the Assault suits. Ignoring a prototype modules worth of stat difference isn't going to yield good game balance. 0.02 ISK Cross

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1184	Posted - 2013.06.19 18:46:00 - [11] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: I don't view myself as a statistical outlier. I am in no way shape or form an "elite gun game" player. I still do just fine running with Sidearms only. It is all about being smart about your choices, deciding when to engage and when to flee. The only Light Weapons I've spec'd into at all are Swarms for AV and Sniper Rifles for countersniping. Having said this, I did have a thought that I believe might be a decent compromise between my view of Sidearms being a viable weapon selection for logi and the view held by others that Sidearms possess no combat viability. Give Logis a "Logi Weapon Slot". Anyone here familiar with 3e/3.5e D&D or older? Remember how Rogues/Thieves had their weapon selection? This is basically what I am proposing, make it so that the Logi Weapon Slot can fit any Sidearm as well as Mass Driver, Shotgun and Swarm Launcher. This would allow them to retain some access to Light Weapons as well as access to Sidearms without being able to fit up an AR Assault God in a Logi Suit. I really cannot see how the removal of a Light Weapon slot can be called a "tweak". I further still have not seen any fittings the validate the idea logi suits actually need to be changed at all or that there are nerf cries based on anything beyond the Cal Logi skill buff. The Min suit has been the same since closed beta and it used to be a running joke that "we'd know the player base had gone south when they started asking to nerf the Logi". I'd like to point out that it was my Assault squad mates who came up with and perpetuated this joke not the Logi so this was by no means a protectionist thing. Enter Uprising, the racial skill buffs, the "I Win" which was TAR pre-nerf and the pervasive posting of Logi nerf threads. What changed in the Logi between the idea of nerfing being a joke among Assault players and the constant QQ about Logi? The racial skills and the TAR. The TAR has now been nerfed but it's still not uncommon and the perceptions it created are not gone. Further ARs have been defended for many builds as properly balanced and viable because they're "supposed to be adaptable" which is the same reason being given by many for Logi suit nerfs that doesn't conceptually add up. I've repeated many times that I'd like to see fits which prove the need for an alteration to the logi suits, I still have not really seen fits at all much less more than one fit from every racial paring showing a pervasive disparity which needs mechanical alterations to correct. I'd still like to see those fits, because without them there's not much to substantiate the concept that there's even a problem in the first place. I'll also reiterate that if said fits cannot be done without use of the AR then the problem clearly does not simply lay within the Logi Suit line. Alaika Arbosa wrote: I will continue to stand by my assertion that "Sidearms Only" is a viable tweak to logi suits and I feel that the only reason people disagree is that they are unwilling to truly run support intelligently. This idea is merely my concession to those who disagree with me. Sorry if that comes across as cocky, I just firmly believe that Sidearms are a viable choice for Logi. Let me be blunt, while you can stand by your assertion, in the absence of independently reproducible balance data such as fittings you have no grounds to try and force your play style onto every other Merc who looks at a logi suit. Further claiming that anyone who doesn't agree is "unwilling to trully run support intelligently" borders on being both a straw man and ad hominem. Presuming that those who don't play within your chosen play style are simply "wrong" does not equate to solid balance theory. I play support Logi, being one of those guys who stuck with the repair tool even when it had no WP, the vast majority of my WP come from support actions. I've spent a build focused on side arm use and did reasonably well with it. I've been here since closed beta and I can say without equivocation that nefing the Logi to only use sidearms decreases the overall viability of the class. In point of fact everyone, including yourself, who's suggesting it implicitly says the same thing by making the suggestion as the means to "balance the OP'ed logi line" because if it didn't nerf the logi then it wouldn't "stop it from being OP". Most support Logi don't run with only sidearms and we are neither OP 'slayers' nor unwilling to run support intelligently. I will continue to stand by my assertion that any nerf to logi suits is bad balance until fittings and numbers are provided to prove otherwise. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1184	Posted - 2013.06.19 18:53:00 - [12] - Quote Halcyon MI1 wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Halcyon MI1 wrote: First off, I know this has been talked over a thousand times. [sic] so try to keep it civil. Ok, before I respond to the rest of the post I'd like to say a couple things about the bits I've quoted. First thank you for making an effort to keep things civil, cheers to that o7 Second, since we're talking about things that have been stated a thousand times over would you be willing and able to accept my challenge and provide is with fits that support the idea there's an actual disparity? Please inform me if you don't know what challenge I'm talking about and I will be happy to repost the method/standards of the challenge. I am completely open to discussion on this topic but what I'm not open too is discussion of a nerf (on this or any other feature) without substantiation of the concept that there is indeed a problem, hence my fittings challenge. Cheers, Cross Hey there! I actually think I've squadded up with you, with Hellstorm maybe? Okay, I am posting and reading from my phone at the moment, so I'd really appreciate it if you messaged me this challenge! More than happy to consider it, even if I probably don't have the skill points to fit both proto Logistics and Assault suits, I may be able to run a few tests! So please do, and thank you! o7 to you :) Yes we've run squads a few times (mostly gunning with Hellstorm guys like Fundies, IX, Revival etc) I'll link the challenge standards below and try to dig up the fittings tool as well so that you don't have to spend your SP to be able to test all these things. Also you can use the market for all the mod and suit stats and not have to spend anything either. Since the racial skill buffs need a balance pass and the other skills are open to everyone we can just use base item stats for the challenge and they'll work just fine (I don't want to require anyone to spend millions of SP to help with balance testing now that the game is live). Challenge Cross Atu wrote: Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Looking forward to what you come up with o7 Cheers, Cross ps ~ Feel free to catch me in game for more squads any time, it'd be fun to run with you again.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1188	Posted - 2013.06.20 01:24:00 - [13] - Quote @The Black Jackal, Since you started this thread and are still here could I persuade you to post some actual fits that support the contention Logi suits need to be changed at all? I'll be happy to grab the standards of the challenge if you've missed them all the other times I've posted them. It's getting a bit like the twilight zone around here with all the focus on logi suit nerf, or role alteration, or damage modification etc. without fittings, video or other independently reproducible data being provided to substantiate that there's even a problem to be addressed in the first place. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1196	Posted - 2013.06.21 02:57:00 - [14] - Quote padraic darby wrote: Mikael Murray wrote: Take away 1 high slot. Dun and low slot And provide fits from every racial pairing to demonstrate an actual need for any changes at all ~Cross ps ~ challenge is still open, if you haven't seen the standards ask and I'll repost them.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1218	Posted - 2013.06.27 02:38:00 - [15] - Quote Halcyon MI1 wrote: I'm too lazy to do that Cross xD too much excel for my reduced brain. Fair enough, but the offer of a squad still stands Feel free to hit me up if you're lfs. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1218	Posted - 2013.06.27 03:03:00 - [16] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: [sic] I've come up with a possible solution... Remove bonuses not tied to logistics, and put in logistics bonuses... So Shield HP, gone... Armor Rep increase... gone... Hacking speed.... well let the Minnie logis decide if that's useful Gallente is the only Logi-focused Bonus atm... with reduction to Fitting req for Equipment. Here's a few bonuses to throw around - Improved Rep tool use (Increases repping done by tool) - Greater nanohive Capacity (More nanite 'cluster's per Nanhive) - Improved Nanite Injector Radius (Should be in most anyway... but logis can 'revive' from further away so you don't need to stand exactly on top of the person) THese are just possible ideas... encourage logistics roles, but don't 'exclude' anything from being fitted. Enhance the role-specific stuff. It seems highly unlikely that you play support as a primary consider your presentation of what "is not tied to logistics" above. Buffer HP becomes more important for basic survival the slower the suit in question and Logi are slower than everything out there this side of the Heavy frame. I would be very interested in a specific definition form you regarding what you consider "logistics" to mean since you've eliminated dealing damage, taking damage or possibly hacking from the pool are logi only supposed to carry equipment and provide no functional value aside from that? Also of note, I've run numbers on this due to a discussion in another thread an the Gallente racial buff that you mention, the fitting req savings for Equipment? It is less valuable than the current base logi role buff of 5 HP/s self rep on armor. From a fittings perspective is provides an enhancement of available PG/CPU above the cost of a complex repper which is less than the value of 1 level in Electronics or Engineering. And it does this at a considerable investment of SP. Put more bluntly the one racial logi bonus which you have said is acceptable is by far the least valuable of all the skills present. It in fact provides less overall utility than the basic fittings skills. Speaking as a full support Logi since closed beta here are the effects of your example ideas - Improved Rep tool use (Increases repping done by tool) Until CCP alters the WP mechanics for repair tools this is a nerf to Logi earnings. This will provide more HP/s in reps it's true, and that does have tactical value however the tactical merit combined with the depression in earnings will push logi even further into running only basic or militia gear as the 'risk vs reward' will not make it worth while to do otherwise. More info on that here - Greater nanohive Capacity (More nanite 'cluster's per Nanhive) This could actually be incredibly useful, I'd personally really consider running a suit with this buff. The major drawbacks being that so would every assault player who hates running out of ammo or loves armor repairing hives. Nanohives aren't the most used equipment by such a wide margin because support logi are stacking multiplies of them on our suits The other drawback is that this once again causes reduced incentive to skill into, buy or use upper meta gear. CCP has a cool down on WP earnings from hives thus limiting how much 'reward' they can provide while the 'risk' remains constant, thus a skill like this simply provides incentive for the logi to save on costs (SP, ISK, and CPU/PG) by simply using a lessor grade of hive. - Improved Nanite Injector Radius (Should be in most anyway... but logis can 'revive' from further away so you don't need to stand exactly on top of the person) I firmly believe the revive radius needs a bit of a size increase, and I believe it should be game wide. Setting that aside however I love this one, it would provide some real utility to a logi by helping them to support their team while not being insta-gibbed by hostile forces. Balance might be tricky but then again balance always is. If you put up a thread suggesting this please let me know as I'd be happy to give it a +1 In closing I'd like to renew my request for you to post any and all fittings that you believe support the concept that logi need a change. So far everything I've encountered suggests to me that the only two problems in the Logi line are the Amarr suit having underpowered PG and the Caldari suit racial skill being slightly overpowered. You are suggesting that changes need to be made game wide which requires game wide examples to support it (non-anecdotal/subjective ones). Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1220	Posted - 2013.06.27 07:08:00 - [17] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: As per above, I abandoned my concept of 'limiting or restricting' logis in ANY way. I have switched my stance to giving them bonuses to equipment effects... or requirements... So in essence... those bonuses replace the OP ones of the Caldari Logi, the marr gets some other bonus, minmatar may (though I don't know the effect of hacking skill unless you're always hacking the points). The Gallente Prototpye Logi can carry up to 9-10 Drop Uplinks that are deployable... If you've seen PC matches, this is a HUGE supportive role. And one used VERY frequently by most top PC corps. This is due to the reduction of CPU and PG on equipment. Which affects Protype Gear to the point where they can fit this many. There's a spoof image one of my guys posted up. (It's in the general section atm) about facing Hellstorm... the Uplinks you see in that image, are 3 logi's worth... Though you say it's the 'least useful' it's still a VERY useful bonus. As to the others... If something is 'tactically better' that's the reason it should be implemented... not due to lack of rewards (which is what you based some of your premise on). Being able to rep more is a boon to your team, while rewarding such behaviour is a separate issue. The greater Nanohive Capavity would only apply to Nanhovives thrown down by logis, so Assaults woudln;t benefit directly from it. They're already giving injectors a bigger radius, but the logis need a much larger one that could be considered a 'ranged revive'. In essence, I'm supporting your positions that the 'suits' are generally fine (aside from Amarr), but the bonuses need work. And need to follow the line that logis support others. It wont STOP people fitting Assault-focused Logis, but it ENCOURAGES supporting actions over combat. Oh and on that note I DO play Caldari Logistics. With Assault Rifle... Though I only run a Standard Suit... most of my skills are in HAVs (Gimped Shield Tanks with Gimped Missiles) Please read the linked thread from my prior post, I and others there go into great detail regarding why rewards and tactical value cannot be treated as zero sum or disassociated within the context of a game such as Dust. It is also worth noting that CCP supports the stance that tactical value and rewards should parallel each other, thus maintaining the core 'risk vs reward' aspect of Dust. Also note I said Cross Atu wrote: It seems highly unlikely that you play support as a primaryIt seems highly unlikely that you play support as a primary not "run in a logi suit", the two are not equivalent. A key part of playing support is not dying. Note here I'm saying don't end up dead, not "rack up kills and win every gunfight", support don't need to be hardcore slayers but support most certainly does require high eHP to be effective. I've had more than one logi over the builds scoff at my focus on eHP before even leveling my equipment slots and then be surprised when I'd consistently earn more WP with KDRs around 2/12. Support doesn't need to be a slayer, but it does need tank. Keeping all of the tank skills for Logi suits is vital to their role, tho I do admit the Cal suit racial needs toned down (note run Min and Amarr). The Assault racial skills look like they need some love as well, they're on average too broad and not very compelling, but watering down Logis isn't the way to fix that. On that note I'm going to follow this post with some numbers related to the Gal fittings skill, they're pretty telling. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1220	Posted - 2013.06.27 07:08:00 - [18] - Quote Complex repper costs ~ 5,595 ISK 932,760 SP, 1 Low Power Slot, CPU 45, PG 10 1 level of Dropsuit Electronics grants 19.5 CPU 1 level of Dropsuit Engineering grants; Caldari 3.9 PG Amarr 3.3 PG Minmitar 3.9 PG Galentte 3.9 PG CPU & PG savings for most fittings intenstive loadout 3 Slot layout Amarr and Caldari Max Cost Items Allotek Nanohive (R) CPU 88 PG 16 Duvolle Focused Active Scanner CPU 38 PG 18 Wiyrkomi Triage Nanohive CPU 84 PG 15 Total Cost: CPU 210 PG 49 Total Savings at 25%: CPU 52.5 PG 12.25 Net gain: CPU 7.5 PG 2.25 Actual Loadout Items Ishukone Gauged Nanohive CPU 59 PG 11 Core Focused Repair Tool CPU 60 PG 10 Wiyrkomi Nanite Injector CPU 48 PG 8 Total Cost: CPU 167 PG 29 Total Savings at 25%: CPU 41.75 PG 7.25 Net gain: CPU -3.25 PG -2.75 4 Slot layout Minmatar & Gallente Max Cost Items Allotek Nanohive (R) CPU 88 PG 16 Duvolle Focused Active Scanner CPU 38 PG 18 Wiyrkomi Triage Nanohive CPU 84 PG 15 Ishukone Gauged Drop Uplink CPU 71 PG 14 Total Cost: CPU 281 PG 63 Total Savings at 25%: CPU 70.25 PG 15.75 Net Gain: CPU 25.25 PG 5.75 Actual Loadout Items Ishukone Gauged Nanohive CPU 59 PG 11 Core Focused Repair Tool CPU 60 PG 10 Wiyrkomi Nanite Injector CPU 48 PG 8 Ishukone Gauged Drop Uplink CPU 71 PG 14 Total Cost: CPU 238 PG 43 Total Savings at 25%: CPU 59.5 PG 10.75 Net gain: CPU 14.5 PG 0.75 Multi Uplink fit Imperial Flux Drop Uplink CPU 71 PG 14 Imperial Quantum Drop Uplink CPU 71 PG 14 Ishukone Gauged Drop Uplink CPU 71 PG 14 Total Cost: CPU 213 PG 42 Total Savings at 25%: CPU 53.25 PG 10.5 Net gain: CPU 8.25 PG 0.5 The above compares the value of the 5 HP/s skill to a 25% reduction in fittings cost of equipment mods.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1223	Posted - 2013.06.28 15:48:00 - [19] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Just pointing out that the Cal Logi bonus you agree is over the top.. is the ONLY one that would be effectively reducing eHP by it's removal... No other ones did I say reduce the eHP of 'this suit'. I'm not suggesting a nerf in any real way... Incorrect, the Amarr suit has a bonus to active reps which increase eHP, and all Logi suits have the base 5 HP/s armor rep (assuming max skill levels) which also increase eHP. Granted only the Cal Logi bonus which needs a reduction not a removal gives more buffer HP but lots of Logi skills give a bonus to eHP and removing them is most certainly a nerf. Quote: I'm suggesting to SHIFT the bonuses to a more logistically focused role... Instead of getting extra reps from armor reppers, you do more repping with your tools, or instead of getting better extenders on shields, you get more clusters per nanohive. Instead of a hacking speed bonus, you can revive someone from 10m away. I think you better stop assuming that I'm aiming to 'nerf' logis any more... I'm saying that their BONUSES need to be more logistical.. and not COMBAT oriented. It doesn't stop a Cal logi running an AR Super SHield Tanked fit... but it reduces the Shield Buffer that, atm, is over the top. My whole prior post was pointing out how survival is key to playing a support logi and that stripping survival skills from the Logi class is in fact a nerf. You have still not posted any fits as per the "Logi fittings challenge" showing that these changes are needed, and if as you contend it doesn't change the survivability of any other suit then what is the purported motive for the change? Quote: It doesn't affect ANY other suit's eHP... and it would only marginally affect the Amarr Suit, since so many people have pointed out the small bonus to reppers isn't worth the reduction in PG / CPU. It absolutely does effect eHP, active tank is unequivically part of effective Hit Points and if you remove it you are reducing eHP Quote: Never have I not said the Amarr Suit needs no buff.. in fact I alluded to it at one point also. Keeping badgering me and saying that my concept is to lower ALL logis eHP is beligerantt and na+»ve. I want to make their BONUSES more ENCOURAGING to play logistics. I also tend to disagree with the whole 'Logistics Suit Bonus' idea that gives a generic 5 hps Armor rep to all Logis... should be shifted to suit each suit better. Again reducing the ability to restore HP is a reduction in eHP. HP = Hit Points. eHP = effective Hit Points. Since infantry suits have no resistance hardeners or other mods that directly reduce incoming damage the only difference for infantry at this point in the game between HP and eHP is the ability to repair armor/regenerate shields. That ability to regen/repair is specifically what you're talking about removing which means you are specifically talking about nerfing the Logi eHP. Quote: I would have also added a 'call to reward more' if it were in the terms of the thread, but this is to get the mechanics right, not the rewards. Rewards are a SEPARATE Issue... ask any Dropship Pilot. They can be extremely Valuable on the field, risk a fairly hefty sum, and get ** in return WP wise... Making something more valuable doesn't increase the 'risk' it increases your effectiveness... WP caps, etc. shouldn't factor into GAME Mechanics... they factor into rewards, which are a RESULT of using Game Mechanics.. not a Game Mechanic unto themselves. (At least not in the same context. You have clearly still not read the thread as this issue is exactly why I directed you there. WP potential and the 'risk vs reward' value of a fit are directly linked. If you are spending more ISK and more SP for something you are increasing your risk and if the WPs don't reflect the increase in tactical value then the increased risk is not supported by the reward side of the dynamic and you'll see minimal use of the improperly scaled item. That breaks the risk v reward element which is key to Dust. I have in fact asked Dropship Pilots, there's even a bit of talk about it in the thread I linked, and they agree with me that rewards need to parallel risk or you are simply mechanically punishing the use of certain gear. Forcing a skilled pilot to play another role just to earn the ISK to fly is improper, just as forcing a skilled support logi to run non-support in order to field a best fit logi frame is improper. Without rewards in ISK/SP commiserate to the tactical value and personal performance of the Merc via WP earnings game mechanics are broken**. Dropship Pilots have been talking about how this is broken for a long time, thankfully CCP has confirmed that they are working on systems to address this mechanical deficiency within the game. The two values are inextricably linked and separating them when considering changes leads to improper balance. As is the case when you make all Logi fits functionally more expensive by nerfing their eHP thereby causing them to die more. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1223	Posted - 2013.06.28 16:31:00 - [20] - Quote A couple things that seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle from our prior posts. First The Black Jackal wrote: The greater Nanohive Capavity would only apply to Nanhovives thrown down by logis, so Assaults woudln;t benefit directly from it. They're already giving injectors a bigger radius, but the logis need a much larger one that could be considered a 'ranged revive'. The point is that with this bonus on a Logi suit, unless you nerf the survivability of the suit so much that it's not combat viable there will be "assault players" aka 'Slayers' using the Logi suit to play the Assault role. The extra clusters will also make the Logi suit more of a favored choice for slayers playing the Sniper role as it will allow them to stay on top of that remote perch for longer without moving. Two of the primary slayer roles will be given incentive to use Logi suits if this skill is implemented, mean time the actual support players who'd rely on equipment to earn their keep wouldn't be benefiting on the earnings side from the greater utility so most/many would simply use lower grade versions to manage the cost (this is not a theory this trend appears among many Logi with other gear due to broken risk vs reward scaling within the equipment line). Net result slayers using a logi suit gain the tactical benefit, and need even less support from any support players. Support players using a suit with this buff gain no additional earnings potential to offset costs, are thus likely to use lower grade and so become even less sought after by the slayers in logi suits. (just like shield stacked Cal suits be they assault or logi will hardly ever look for armor reps) Second Cross Atu wrote: A key part of playing support is not dying. Note here I'm saying don't end up dead, not "rack up kills and win every gunfight", support don't need to be hardcore slayers but support most certainly does require high eHP to be effective. I've had more than one logi over the builds scoff at my focus on eHP before even leveling my equipment slots and then be surprised when I'd consistently earn more WP with KDRs around 2/12. Support doesn't need to be a slayer, but it does need tank. Keeping all of the tank skills for Logi suits is vital to their role, tho I do admit the Cal suit racial needs toned down (note run I Min and Amarr). The Assault racial skills look like they need some love as well, they're on average too broad and not very compelling, but watering down Logis isn't the way to fix that. On that note I'm going to follow this post with some numbers related to the Gal fittings skill, they're pretty telling. HP does not equal being a Slayer. Will a Slayer with higher HP generally have a higher KDR? Sure, because being alive lets you fill your role. More eHP, means less time on the spawn screen which means more time in the actual game. At this point I do have to correct an error I made in my prior post, eHP in Dust is not just a factor of reps/regen it is also tied to speed and in a sense damage output as well (i.e. "dps tank" if you kill them fast enough you don't need very much HP to survive). I apologies for my inaccurate prior statement in this regard. My excessive focus on buffer/reps with regards to Logi eHP is due to Logi already having lower speed, and support Logi being focused on activities other than killing. That biased my perspective here and again I apologies for the oversight. Having corrected my error I need to reiterate however that stripping buffer and rep/regen from Logi suits will make them less support capable and oriented not more. With less non-aggressive survival methods available more logi will spend time fighting rather than directly engaged in support actions. If you can't body shield your fallen squad mate while you revive and repair him you'll spent time shooting the enemy and your squad mate is more likely to bleed out before you get to him. If your squad mate is dead/respawns his ammo is refreshed and he won't be needing those hives so often. With fewer WPs coming in from Equip slots and both earnings & survival based on killing the motivation to skill into or fit and field support gear is diminished because both it's tactical application and it's potential rewards have been diminished. Also regarding the 5.0 HP/s proto logi self rep skill. 8 seconds. That's the time taken to fully repair the damage from one GEK round. A GEK fires 12.5 rounds per second. 447 seconds. That's the time taken to fully repair the damage from one seconds worth of GEK rounds. Both of those are assuming the GEK user isn't hitting you in the head, using damage mods, or benefiting from any skill buffs to damage. It's not enough to keep you alive in a firefight with even a single opponent, but it is enough to keep you alive while staying behind your squad and cover focused on playing support.

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1224	Posted - 2013.06.29 14:27:00 - [21] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Only the Caldari Suit offers a buffer, and the Amarr Suit offers reps, The Gallente and Minmatar both have supportive actions. My suggestion is to provide bonuses to enhance their logistic abilities. Except the role bonus for all logi which you've also said you'd like removed.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1228	Posted - 2013.06.30 05:13:00 - [22] - Quote See the post by BL4CKST4R first. Regarding the Tank values, are these numbers based off of raw "buffer" HP tanked builds or fully eHP derived builds with reps/regen included? If true eHP builds rather than pure buffer what time frame/context was used to calculate their total values? I would like to keep my replies and comparisons consistent with yours. Moving on. Cal Nano bonus: This will still be a very "slayer" suit even with this change. Not that it would have to be but it could lend itself to that. During Chrome and before there were plenty of proto Assaults who ran duel nanohives and I've heard more than a couple saying they wish they still could especially after the Uprising nerf to hives. Even with that I don't think it would be "a better assault than the assault" but then again neither would the current version with a mild 1-2% reduction. Once CCP has fixed the equipment scaling and added the new shield mods this could still be a viable bonus but since you can't separate tactical rewards from WP rewards without compromising balance it's still going to be feeding into other problems/distortions until the fix is in for equipment. Amarr bonus: Armor tanking is generally weaker than shields right now but that's a flaw in the baseline of armor tanking not in the Amarr racial bonus. Leaving that aside the example presented assumes there are two targets to heal that far and that the, now even squisher, Logi isn't dead before/during these rep cycles. Also if more reps are needed the core focused repair tool delivers 105 HP/s and while yes the new buff would improve that it's very rare that such a bump would make a functional diffrence. I use the core focused and usually either A) the target is repped in moments, or B) the target is taking so much incoming fire that they go down anyway and even with the +25% the added reps wouldn't amount to a single GEK round from an unmodded gun fired by an unskilled user landing in the body. The overall value of the Amarr logi is much higher with better survivability than it is with a buff to reps which will be off the feild as soon as his bright yellow body hits the dirt. I've played an Amarr Logi throughout most of Uprising running as primary support for PC squads with several corps and it was my survival (even stationed behind my assault and heavy brothers) which was most lacking. The other support logi I've spoken with relate similar experiences. Risk vs Reward this is a core mechanic. The Black Jackal wrote: I have never put off hand the risk Vs. Reqards. I have simply sidestepped the issue to get to the core mechanics. Once Logis are able to support MORE effectively and are encouraged to do so via in-game mechanics, then offering incentive that via rewards is part two. And nothing is stopping them from doing both at the same time. There is little risk in throwing down a nano-hive, but a hefty risk in repping a Heavy or 2 engaged in a gunfight. This quote portrays a false dichotomy, proper rewards are specifically a key part of how players are encouraged to take any action via in-game mechanics. WPs are present not as a "carrot" or pat on the head they are to represent the tactial contributions of that Merc and the actions taken. The current system is imperfect, granted, but CCP knows this and is improving it. Meanwhile treating tactical value and earnings value as isolated rather than parallel and complimentary in my experience creates greater potential for imbalance. Leaving that aside however there's another aspect of the quoted text I'd like to point out. Being better at support actions specifically does not result in a direct net gain in actual ability to support. Speed, survival, range, and expense (in CPU/PG, ISK, SP) all contribute to the final result. Yes the risk of repping squad mates in fire fight is greater than dropping a hive at a secure location, but it's roughly the same as dropping a hive in support of squad mates in that fire fight. Yes dropping an uplink in a remote area is usually safer than repping in a fire fight, but deploying one in a foothold position to keep your guys spawing for that fight is nearly the same risk as applying the reps. The long and short of it is that while there are ways to support away from the squad or the front lines most support actions are more frequent/of greater value when carried out at or near the front lines, and if you're going to survive near the front lines while your focus is not on directly killing the hostile forces you need high eHP. Otherwise you're just a comparatively slow moving neon yellow target. If you either can't stay alive long enough to gain more than trivial use from your support gear, or if you can't afford to deploy in your support gear without going negative then the mechanics have already failed. Economics, and by extension earnings, are not a secondary tagged on element of New Eden they are a key part of it's beating heart. Once we've moved to the intended iteration of players producing and selling gear as well as fighting anything not properly balanced to earn rewards commensurate with it's cost will wither into obscurity as only those who get their ISKs worth in both tactical and earnings potential from a fitting or mod will be able to afford it's sustained use over the long haul. If cost weren't a key issue then HP and eHP wouldn't be so much of an issue either as suit/clone loss would be much more trivial leaving only respawn and travel time as drawbacks to death. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1231	Posted - 2013.06.30 15:13:00 - [23] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Cross, while I respect your opinion, and have said I AGREE WITH YOU... so I'm not sure why you're still arguing... the fact is there is NOTHING stopping them from doing both at the same time. I'm addressing the SINGLE mechanic of enhancing Logistical capabilities here. Not rewards for them. I agree (and have said this multiple times) that buffing the rewards for Logistics to match Risk Vs. Reward is something I agree with. Yes you've said you agree, but you've also continued to push for a change that does not seem either required or on balance useful. I'm glad we agree with the larger theory concerns, and I apologies if I've glossed over that but eHP is vital to the effective support a logi can provide and as stated earlier removal of reps or buffer effects the eHP of a suit/fitting. Put bluntly you cannot support when you're dead so, as stated in my last post, a buff to support actions does not directly correlate to a net buff in support ability. Logi are already slow moving and bright yellow, their greatest weakness in providing close support in a sustained effective manner is eHP. Quote: What I don't get is that should you get a greater effect from something like a rep tool, nanohive etc... you actually can reduce your risk by some small amount (miniscule in some cases) but doing something better, more efficiently, and faster, means you can 'get in and out' faster. In my experience "in and out" is much easier for a Scout, or even an Assault, to accomplish. They are less noticeable in color, they are able to focus on killing hostiles who see them, and they both move faster than the Logi even before you add any armor plates. In fact an Assault suit running 1 Complex Armor Plate moves at essentially the base speed of a Logi but has higher eHP due to higher base stats. The back of the hitbox is also key, just like a headshot, to take more damage with the combined back of the head taking nearly double headshot damage from infantry light weapons (statement is general all efficiency ratings are variant by slight amounts) so turning and running is usually fatal for a slow moving target, as is walking backwards out of a firefight. In short, aside from when the squad is dug in with proper cover, "in and out" usually isn't a real option for a logi providing close support. And the best value for most of the support equipment is in that close role. Revives and reps being close is required. Hives and uplinks being close is optimal, especially in the case of hives. REs being close to lock down an objective/area upon position is preferable. The active scanner can be used at more range but it earns nothing and the survival of a (non-sniping) logi goes down when separated from a squad. Quote: Now I realise this is very situational, but how much does the Amarr Rep bonus Actually net you? Pittance. The 25% extra local reps amounts to less than a single GEK round, even with 3 stacked Rep Having that Amarr Heavy With you, kept alive for just a few more seconds... could mean the difference between the point being held, or the point being taken. Agreed in its current state the Amarr rep bonus is of trivial use, but as I stated in my last post that is an effect of the Armor vs Shield tank imbalance which needs to be fixed anyway. Just like the Amarr Assault skill, it's not that the skill is bad but rather the gear it supports is weak enough right now that the skill just doesn't functionally matter. In both cases it's the related gear that needs fixed. (And as we've both agreed the Amarr Logi suit is underpowered at the moment) Quote: I will not say you don't have a valid point, as I said, and will say again, reward and risk should be parallel, like you say... but just because the reward doesn't match up with the risk at this time, doesn't mean you should maintain the status quo and NOT fix the mechanics. I see where you're coming from with fixing the mechanics we can directly address and I support that but it must be done with the concept of rewards in mind or we're sowing the seeds of future imbalance. The Active Scanner is a great piece of gear with great potential tactical utility and it's rarely used because at present equipping one is a "dead" slot when it comes to rewards and survival, the combination of which comes down to cost which is why I keep bringing up 'risk v reward'. The Repair Tool still carried 100% of it's tactical value after the WP nerf but use of it dwindled almost to nothing, in fact I can't even name 5 logi who still ran it (even tho I can include myself as 1 on that list). Injectors are currently bugged so while their paper rewards and tactical value remain the same their net usefulness is reduced and they are currently fit by very few Mercs. In each case any mod that is a "dead space" through lack of tactical OR earnings value becomes nearly unused. I understand you're trying to focus on just one side of the coin but separating the aspects really does not work, and that will become even more pronounced the farther into player rather than NPC driven the Econ gets. A change which is an explicitly stated goal that CCP has. I am not trying to be adversarial towards you as an individual, it's simply that the two sides of the tactical/earnings dynamic need to be build and balanced together not separately. The equipment use trends over the last several builds highlight this. Cheers, Cross

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