DUST Search - A Possible Solution to Logistics used as Assaults.

Cross Atu wrote:

The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is.
I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response.

Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules

Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline
Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block
Build the above fits without use of the AR
Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats.
After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots.
Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting
Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits
List the results

Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following.

Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats
Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits
Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots
Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas

Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken
Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value.

[sic]

0.02 ISK
Cross

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dday3six Intrepidus XI Omega Commission 5	Posted - 2013.06.16 16:43:00 - [31] - Quote The thing about tanking is that it's not so much about being able to deal massive damage, as it is about being able to absorb it. I think if their racial bonuses are either changed or decreased to 2 or 3% it would help. However perhaps it might just be better to rework the Logisitics dropsuits as a whole to either have 1 or 2 small weapons slots, in exchange for either have more grenade slots or more equipment slots. So you're not so much limiting their firepower as you are changing the way it's able to be applied.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 368	Posted - 2013.06.16 16:51:00 - [32] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Logistics should be bringing support. I think the disconnect here is that many of you think logistics means medic. I bring proto uplinks (don't remember cost) and proto nanohives (2x @ 28,000 isk). My suit costs a LOT more than an assault. This is truly a case of pandering to stupid people if they nerf logistics suits. The same as pandering to the stupid people nerfing tanks that cost far more than your Logi Suit. The point of this debate is that Logistics SHOULD be focused on support, with lessened combat effectiveness, but greater survival. Reducing their HP would result in them being eliminated far too fast to be of any use in the short term. This coupled with the fact that they can effectively do the same damage as an Assault means they bring two positives to the field simultaneously. You don't look to the Guys hold a Swarm to take out Infantry at long range, nor the guy with the Shotgun. Lower their combat effectiveness somewhat, make them less apt to be combative, but just as (in some cases more) survivable, so they are more supportive. I get your point, but I honestly don't see the problem. I'm a bit biased because I'm in the suit everyone QQ's about. But ONE flux and I have to run. Perhaps people should fit more flux instead of all locus grenades. Scrambler rifles make me get the hell out of dodge as well. I'd rather see buffs to the other suits. This isn't a glaring issue like lasers at the end of Chromosome or TAC rifles up until recently. They should try buffs to balance instead of nerf hammers. This way you have a group or groups happy instead of one really pissed off group.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1161	Posted - 2013.06.16 16:56:00 - [33] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: I think most people are aware of the Caldari Logistics ability to tank. It's written plain as day in their description, and it's being abused under the current mechanic. Not because it's a bad mechanic, but the fact there is NO downside to running said Logi... you give up a Sidearm, to gain: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment I have a simple solution. Reduce the damage done by logistics Suits by 30-40%, across the board. Just a flat reduction in 'weapons' damage. (So Remote Explosives, Grenades etc are still as effective, but your guns are not.) Give them a detriment equal to their advantage. At the moment there is only one downside to running a Logistics Suit as an Assault, and it's nothing comparative to what you gain. This damage reduction would be applicable to ALL Logistics Suits, putting them into a support role, where they should be. Not as a Frontline Attacker. Flaws in the OP Cal Logi suit balance is not equal to Cal Logi Racial Skill balance Cal Logi suit + racial skill balance is not equal to Logi suit balance across all races (indeed these suits are not equal) Nerfing Logi damage buffs Logi suits with the most High Power slots, when combined with the current racial skill this makes the Cal Logi more of a problem when balanced against all other Logi racial types. Reasoning is not presented explaining how suits aside from the Cal Logi are a problem Fittings & numbers are not presented to support or explain how any Logi suit is a problem[/b] Not all Logi suits have higher PG & CPU than their races Assault suit Not all Logis have more Shields than their races Assault suit,in point of fact none of them do]/b] The statement "but the fact there is NO downside to running said Logi... you give up a Sidearm..." is not factual. Logi suits have lower base stats almost across the board when compared with their racial Assault counterparts. This results in lower total/raw values gained per level in passive base skills related to suits. Further when building fits a Logi suit built to at minimum meet the stats of an equivalently geared and skilled Assault fit the Logi fit requires on average higher SP and ISK buy in to use and deploy said fit. Quoted from another thread and used many times before Cross Atu wrote: The Cal Logi suit is not overpowered but the Cal Logi racial skill pretty clearly is. I've been laying this option out in many threads for most of the build and have yet to see an example in response. Build me a combat viable Logi fit that follows these rules Build best fit with it's racial Assault counterpart to establish a baseline Build the Logi fit to meet or exceed all stats of the Assault suit, without omitting or cheery picking from the stat block Build the above fits without use of the AR Build the above fits without use of the Cal Logi suit OR without including any skill buffs in listed stats. After normalizing stats (i.e. fitting to at least match as per #2) make best efforts to fill open slots. Tally SP required to unlock/fit all mods used for the fitting Tally ISK cost of the fitting including all mods and suits List the results Thus far all results I've seen have come down to the following. Assault suits get more value out of passive skills due to higher on board stats Assault suits fits cost less ISK/SP on average for comparable fits Logi suits have 2-3 extra Equipment slots Logi suits can hyper specialize into a single area at the expense of falling short in all/nearly all other areas Risk vs Reward - If a fit costs more ISK, more SP and still retains other limits then it's not broken Racial Skills - The racial buff on the Cal Logi needs toned down, and the racial skills for the Assault suits need some love to give them better 'gank' value. [sic] 0.02 ISK Cross Take the challenge and post some actual fits, but let me state one obvious aspect right out of the gate, balancing the Logi suits around either the Cal or Amarr suits is bad balance. Neither of those types is balanced, the Cal Logi skill buff is overpowered, and the Amarr suit is gimped. On a closing note it is the underwhelming nature of the Assault suit skill buffs providing inadequate 'gank' support, combined with the Cal Logi suit buff being OP'ed that is at the crux of the issue suit base values being altered is not a good method for balancing deficiencies within [b]skill balance. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1742	Posted - 2013.06.16 17:01:00 - [34] - Quote Why not make the CaLogi racial bonus unstackable with the shield extender bonus and start from there? Sweeping changes are the reason we have Uprising. Let's not make the same mistake again.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1161	Posted - 2013.06.16 17:05:00 - [35] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Why not make the CaLogi racial bonus unstackable with the shield extender bonus and start from there? Sweeping changes are the reason we have Uprising. Let's not make the same mistake again. +1 to avoiding sweeping changes. +20 if I could.
Dehlia Metii not in a corporation 12	Posted - 2013.06.16 17:32:00 - [36] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Why not make the CaLogi racial bonus unstackable with the shield extender bonus and start from there? Sweeping changes are the reason we have Uprising. Let's not make the same mistake again. I'd rather make it lower than make it not-stacking, or something else entirely. None of this "only sidearms" business though.
Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 41	Posted - 2013.06.16 17:37:00 - [37] - Quote what about changing CalLogi bonus from buffing extenders to buffing regulaters? that would buff their survivability between gunfights instead of during gunfights
dday3six Intrepidus XI Omega Commission 5	Posted - 2013.06.16 18:35:00 - [38] - Quote Dehlia Metii wrote: Cosgar wrote: Why not make the CaLogi racial bonus unstackable with the shield extender bonus and start from there? Sweeping changes are the reason we have Uprising. Let's not make the same mistake again. I'd rather make it lower than make it not-stacking, or something else entirely. None of this "only sidearms" business though. When I suggested limiting Logistic Suits to 1 or 2 sidearms the trade off was getting either more grenades or more equipment slots. If a suit only had 1 sidearm, it would get a extra grenade slot. If they had two sidearm slots they'd get an extra equipment slot. So while they might not be able to run AR's or SCR's, they'll be able to run both a Flaylock and an SMG or both Locus and Focus grenades.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1753	Posted - 2013.06.16 18:42:00 - [39] - Quote dday3six wrote: Dehlia Metii wrote: Cosgar wrote: Why not make the CaLogi racial bonus unstackable with the shield extender bonus and start from there? Sweeping changes are the reason we have Uprising. Let's not make the same mistake again. I'd rather make it lower than make it not-stacking, or something else entirely. None of this "only sidearms" business though. When I suggested limiting Logistic Suits to 1 or 2 sidearms the trade off was getting either more grenades or more equipment slots. If a suit only had 1 sidearm, it would get a extra grenade slot. If they had two sidearm slots they'd get an extra equipment slot. So while they might not be able to run AR's or SCR's, they'll be able to run both a Flaylock and an SMG or both Locus and Focus grenades. Have you tried running around with sidearms in a field of ARs? For something like that to happen sidearms would need a serious range buff. But the mojority of real logis wouldn't go for this because most of us ~~use~~ used the MD. Edit: But if you want us to use nothing but sidearms, then assaults and scouts should give up their equipment slots.
Jastad Eliters D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 14	Posted - 2013.06.16 18:46:00 - [40] - Quote Like Cross Atu siad, the problem here is that how calling for an "NERF ALL THE LOGI" probably dind't use the other logi suit or is simply butthurt that a logi kill him MIN,Gal logi are FINE. Amarr is a little under but thread it pure power for it's versatility and thats fine with me ( i hope little more pg, but is not so important)

Jastad Eliters D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 15	Posted - 2013.06.16 18:49:00 - [41] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Edit: But if you want us to use nothing but sidearms, then assaults and scouts should give up their equipment slots. I suggest the same thing if that happen. Let's watch all the ARCODBOYS melee to death and hope that one logi with a hive is in the match
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 291	Posted - 2013.06.16 18:57:00 - [42] - Quote An actual solution to Logis used as Assaults: shoot them.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 379	Posted - 2013.06.16 19:45:00 - [43] - Quote Play some PC matches as a logi against assaults. You'll find how real quick how much more powerful assault suits are, and how important that sidearm slot really is.
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 20	Posted - 2013.06.16 19:49:00 - [44] - Quote How about changing the Light Weapon Slot against a Side Arm Slot? This way they would play more like Medics. Also this would be MUCH BETTER instead of having a Dropsuit malus with "-30 to -40% Weapon Damage" I mean seriousoly. You can't seriously want that?
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1755	Posted - 2013.06.16 20:01:00 - [45] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: How about changing the Light Weapon Slot against a Side Arm Slot? This way they would play more like Medics. Also this would be MUCH BETTER instead of having a Dropsuit malus with "-30 to -40% Weapon Damage" I mean seriousoly. You can't seriously want that? Can we seriously stop with the "Just make them use sidearms herp derp!" argument? That's honestly the stupidest suggestion I've ever heard next to that one guy QQing about nova knives. And again, why are all logis the problem again and not one suit with an OP racial bonus?
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1165	Posted - 2013.06.16 20:25:00 - [46] - Quote I'll re-post the standards of the challenge again if need be but seriously for those contending that Logi suits need a nerf, especially a drastic one like removing the light weapon slot or other hard cap on possible weapon use/dps please build a fit (or you know more than one if it's not only one specific fit that's broken) that supports the contention there needs to be a nerf. Further build this fit without use of any weapon from the AR line (if this cannot be accomplished than the imbalance may not be within the logi line at all ). There are other elements to the challenge which I'll re-post upon request, but so far I've still not gotten any takers that I'm aware of (if someone knows otherwise please link it for me).... and honestly having been posting this challenge for weeks now in threads on this subject with no real response, it's pretty telling. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 295	Posted - 2013.06.16 20:26:00 - [47] - Quote Quit asking CCP to give you free kills.
Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 41	Posted - 2013.06.16 23:26:00 - [48] - Quote Tankin Tarkus wrote: what about changing CalLogi bonus from buffing extenders to buffing regulaters? that would buff their survivability between gunfights instead of during gunfights no one has a comment on this idea?
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 230	Posted - 2013.06.16 23:38:00 - [49] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: richiesutie 2 wrote: 30-40% STFU even 25% would be a benefit. The Logistics LAV has an inherent 25% reduction to it's damage output. Not its bumper damage
bacon blaster BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate 57	Posted - 2013.06.17 00:36:00 - [50] - Quote Here's a nifty idea: Let's just take away all weapons from logis, including grenades and mele. That'll learn 'em!

ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 381	Posted - 2013.06.17 01:02:00 - [51] - Quote Also, Caldari Logi bonus is not OP... its just that every other logi racial is crap. Logistics passive reps is OP if anything is.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1772	Posted - 2013.06.17 01:44:00 - [52] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Also, Caldari Logi bonus is not OP... its just that every other logi racial is crap. Logistics passive reps is OP if anything is. Bro, do you even Logi? That passive HP bonus is for survivability. Logis can repair everyone else, but who repairs them?
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 231	Posted - 2013.06.17 01:48:00 - [53] - Quote I'm no logi, but what if you simply took 1H and 1L and gave an additional Equip. Slot to all logis.
Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 43	Posted - 2013.06.17 02:17:00 - [54] - Quote that would lower their survivability its only the caldari logi that outdoes its assault counterpart in hp
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 234	Posted - 2013.06.17 03:34:00 - [55] - Quote Tankin Tarkus wrote: that would lower their survivability its only the caldari logi that outdoes its assault counterpart in hp So why not change the Logi bonus to something better suiting a logistics player such as a percentage to efficacy of equipment or something to encourage use as its designated support role.
Italian dude 93 Bloodwolves Battalion 4	Posted - 2013.06.17 03:42:00 - [56] - Quote Give Logistics two side arm slots and give assaults two light weapon slots.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 234	Posted - 2013.06.17 03:45:00 - [57] - Quote Italian dude 93 wrote: Give Logistics two side arm slots and give assaults two light weapon slots. terrible idea, besides, there is the Commando Suit coming in July. If you want to run 2 Light weapons I suggest you save SP for it.
Tactic Angel GodsWolves 22	Posted - 2013.06.17 04:47:00 - [58] - Quote Jastad wrote: @Jackal Amarr LKogistics bonus increases survivability. It's beacuse oh his high surv that we have very very few A-logi. Dont make me laugh, if i want surv id better go gallente or minmatar. Amar logi is ALL about versatility. People must stop watching numbers alone and TRY before speech about. If YOU do this, you will find that Amarr suit is usefull only at his AK0 (simply because is at proto lvl that you gain Side slot) and trade it with LACK of PG Vs other Logi but also vs amarr Ass. Cosgar made a good topic, and show people that EXCEPT of CAL LOGI, all the others Logi are inferior to their ass counterpart. So the only issue is the CAL Logi. feel free to search Cosgar topic. PS: following OP line of thinking why Ass are able to replenish or use equip, thats Logi work.So let's remove all equip slot from ASS suit.... This line show how wrong your ideas are Pretty good summation. I run an Amarr Log fit as my primary fitting. Why? Because I have always loved the Amarr and I play just about every FPS as a 'logistics' or 'medic' type. Its just how I want to play. I don't have a problem with the Amarr logistics really. It is a crappy suit, oh well, but the case against the Caldari Logistics suit is pretty obvious.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 474	Posted - 2013.06.17 06:08:00 - [59] - Quote This problem isn't THAT huge, imho. I'm a Cal Assault, and I **** every Cal Logi I run across. Yeah, they have more tank, and a shorter recharge delay, but you guys have to understand...... THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE. In a fire fight, everyone else has the advantage. - The Cal Logi is slow, so it's at a disadvantage vs. anyone in a straight strafe fight. - ANYTHING Flux or Scrambler is it's Bane, im not even kidding. Their armor is squishier than a scout's, so it's not like the damage drop-off for scrambler vs. armor would matter against them. - No sidearm, this is key to limiting the Logi's assault capacity. If that logi can't finish you with that one clip, he's a sitting duck... they don't get the reload speed bonus. - Run up and smack them. They die. I promise. Bottom line is, you're fooling yourself if you think the Cal Logi is an assault suit. I've played with and against the best players in this game in PC... ...and Cal Logi's are not the one's deciding the outcome in those battles. The Cal Logi is NOT a slayer suit. It's stats are only good enough to keep it viable in a firefight. The Cal Logi looks great on paper, but it doesn't translate well into combat.
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 468	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:33:00 - [60] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: - More Shields - More PG - More CPU - More Equipment (You forgot the - More slots (Nine hi/lo) which is a tremendous advantage)



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