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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1223	Posted - 2013.06.28 15:48:00 - [241] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Just pointing out that the Cal Logi bonus you agree is over the top.. is the ONLY one that would be effectively reducing eHP by it's removal... No other ones did I say reduce the eHP of 'this suit'. I'm not suggesting a nerf in any real way... Incorrect, the Amarr suit has a bonus to active reps which increase eHP, and all Logi suits have the base 5 HP/s armor rep (assuming max skill levels) which also increase eHP. Granted only the Cal Logi bonus which needs a reduction not a removal gives more buffer HP but lots of Logi skills give a bonus to eHP and removing them is most certainly a nerf. Quote: I'm suggesting to SHIFT the bonuses to a more logistically focused role... Instead of getting extra reps from armor reppers, you do more repping with your tools, or instead of getting better extenders on shields, you get more clusters per nanohive. Instead of a hacking speed bonus, you can revive someone from 10m away. I think you better stop assuming that I'm aiming to 'nerf' logis any more... I'm saying that their BONUSES need to be more logistical.. and not COMBAT oriented. It doesn't stop a Cal logi running an AR Super SHield Tanked fit... but it reduces the Shield Buffer that, atm, is over the top. My whole prior post was pointing out how survival is key to playing a support logi and that stripping survival skills from the Logi class is in fact a nerf. You have still not posted any fits as per the "Logi fittings challenge" showing that these changes are needed, and if as you contend it doesn't change the survivability of any other suit then what is the purported motive for the change? Quote: It doesn't affect ANY other suit's eHP... and it would only marginally affect the Amarr Suit, since so many people have pointed out the small bonus to reppers isn't worth the reduction in PG / CPU. It absolutely does effect eHP, active tank is unequivically part of effective Hit Points and if you remove it you are reducing eHP Quote: Never have I not said the Amarr Suit needs no buff.. in fact I alluded to it at one point also. Keeping badgering me and saying that my concept is to lower ALL logis eHP is beligerantt and na+»ve. I want to make their BONUSES more ENCOURAGING to play logistics. I also tend to disagree with the whole 'Logistics Suit Bonus' idea that gives a generic 5 hps Armor rep to all Logis... should be shifted to suit each suit better. Again reducing the ability to restore HP is a reduction in eHP. HP = Hit Points. eHP = effective Hit Points. Since infantry suits have no resistance hardeners or other mods that directly reduce incoming damage the only difference for infantry at this point in the game between HP and eHP is the ability to repair armor/regenerate shields. That ability to regen/repair is specifically what you're talking about removing which means you are specifically talking about nerfing the Logi eHP. Quote: I would have also added a 'call to reward more' if it were in the terms of the thread, but this is to get the mechanics right, not the rewards. Rewards are a SEPARATE Issue... ask any Dropship Pilot. They can be extremely Valuable on the field, risk a fairly hefty sum, and get ** in return WP wise... Making something more valuable doesn't increase the 'risk' it increases your effectiveness... WP caps, etc. shouldn't factor into GAME Mechanics... they factor into rewards, which are a RESULT of using Game Mechanics.. not a Game Mechanic unto themselves. (At least not in the same context. You have clearly still not read the thread as this issue is exactly why I directed you there. WP potential and the 'risk vs reward' value of a fit are directly linked. If you are spending more ISK and more SP for something you are increasing your risk and if the WPs don't reflect the increase in tactical value then the increased risk is not supported by the reward side of the dynamic and you'll see minimal use of the improperly scaled item. That breaks the risk v reward element which is key to Dust. I have in fact asked Dropship Pilots, there's even a bit of talk about it in the thread I linked, and they agree with me that rewards need to parallel risk or you are simply mechanically punishing the use of certain gear. Forcing a skilled pilot to play another role just to earn the ISK to fly is improper, just as forcing a skilled support logi to run non-support in order to field a best fit logi frame is improper. Without rewards in ISK/SP commiserate to the tactical value and personal performance of the Merc via WP earnings game mechanics are broken**. Dropship Pilots have been talking about how this is broken for a long time, thankfully CCP has confirmed that they are working on systems to address this mechanical deficiency within the game. The two values are inextricably linked and separating them when considering changes leads to improper balance. As is the case when you make all Logi fits functionally more expensive by nerfing their eHP thereby causing them to die more. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1223	Posted - 2013.06.28 16:31:00 - [242] - Quote A couple things that seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle from our prior posts. First The Black Jackal wrote: The greater Nanohive Capavity would only apply to Nanhovives thrown down by logis, so Assaults woudln;t benefit directly from it. They're already giving injectors a bigger radius, but the logis need a much larger one that could be considered a 'ranged revive'. The point is that with this bonus on a Logi suit, unless you nerf the survivability of the suit so much that it's not combat viable there will be "assault players" aka 'Slayers' using the Logi suit to play the Assault role. The extra clusters will also make the Logi suit more of a favored choice for slayers playing the Sniper role as it will allow them to stay on top of that remote perch for longer without moving. Two of the primary slayer roles will be given incentive to use Logi suits if this skill is implemented, mean time the actual support players who'd rely on equipment to earn their keep wouldn't be benefiting on the earnings side from the greater utility so most/many would simply use lower grade versions to manage the cost (this is not a theory this trend appears among many Logi with other gear due to broken risk vs reward scaling within the equipment line). Net result slayers using a logi suit gain the tactical benefit, and need even less support from any support players. Support players using a suit with this buff gain no additional earnings potential to offset costs, are thus likely to use lower grade and so become even less sought after by the slayers in logi suits. (just like shield stacked Cal suits be they assault or logi will hardly ever look for armor reps) Second Cross Atu wrote: A key part of playing support is not dying. Note here I'm saying don't end up dead, not "rack up kills and win every gunfight", support don't need to be hardcore slayers but support most certainly does require high eHP to be effective. I've had more than one logi over the builds scoff at my focus on eHP before even leveling my equipment slots and then be surprised when I'd consistently earn more WP with KDRs around 2/12. Support doesn't need to be a slayer, but it does need tank. Keeping all of the tank skills for Logi suits is vital to their role, tho I do admit the Cal suit racial needs toned down (note run I Min and Amarr). The Assault racial skills look like they need some love as well, they're on average too broad and not very compelling, but watering down Logis isn't the way to fix that. On that note I'm going to follow this post with some numbers related to the Gal fittings skill, they're pretty telling. HP does not equal being a Slayer. Will a Slayer with higher HP generally have a higher KDR? Sure, because being alive lets you fill your role. More eHP, means less time on the spawn screen which means more time in the actual game. At this point I do have to correct an error I made in my prior post, eHP in Dust is not just a factor of reps/regen it is also tied to speed and in a sense damage output as well (i.e. "dps tank" if you kill them fast enough you don't need very much HP to survive). I apologies for my inaccurate prior statement in this regard. My excessive focus on buffer/reps with regards to Logi eHP is due to Logi already having lower speed, and support Logi being focused on activities other than killing. That biased my perspective here and again I apologies for the oversight. Having corrected my error I need to reiterate however that stripping buffer and rep/regen from Logi suits will make them less support capable and oriented not more. With less non-aggressive survival methods available more logi will spend time fighting rather than directly engaged in support actions. If you can't body shield your fallen squad mate while you revive and repair him you'll spent time shooting the enemy and your squad mate is more likely to bleed out before you get to him. If your squad mate is dead/respawns his ammo is refreshed and he won't be needing those hives so often. With fewer WPs coming in from Equip slots and both earnings & survival based on killing the motivation to skill into or fit and field support gear is diminished because both it's tactical application and it's potential rewards have been diminished. Also regarding the 5.0 HP/s proto logi self rep skill. 8 seconds. That's the time taken to fully repair the damage from one GEK round. A GEK fires 12.5 rounds per second. 447 seconds. That's the time taken to fully repair the damage from one seconds worth of GEK rounds. Both of those are assuming the GEK user isn't hitting you in the head, using damage mods, or benefiting from any skill buffs to damage. It's not enough to keep you alive in a firefight with even a single opponent, but it is enough to keep you alive while staying behind your squad and cover focused on playing support.
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 96	Posted - 2013.06.28 19:06:00 - [243] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: It's not enough to keep you alive in a firefight with even a single opponent, but it is enough to keep you alive while staying behind your squad and cover focused on playing support. It did so once last night with me vs a heavy machine gunner one vs one but it required a few additional things which if I didn't have would have had me die instead. 1. I used a flux grenade to strip him of his shields. 2. I used cover to recover some shields and armor when I was low. 3. The heavy was outside his effective range when we started fighting(this allowed me to reload half way through and meant he didn't hit me for as much damage initially). 4. The terrain was slightly in my advantage. 5. The mass driver does more damage vs armor. 6. I was using a proto suit with a prototype weapon, 4x complex shield extenders and 3x basic armor plates. 7. I was at full health when we started(so was he though). 8. I have extensive experience using my weapon and the strategies that are required for using it to it's fullest. If I had been hit with 2 more HMG rounds I would have been dead. I regenerated about 40 armor over the fight(lasted about 15 seconds - kept shields until halfway through). I had to hide for 30 seconds to regenerate shields and some armor - the heavy was back in the game before I was. The HP repair bonus does help, but it requires a very specific set of circumstances to be useful in a fight(standing on a repairing nanohive gives you more repairs). The repairs are much more powerful between fights and only over a long period of time. This is what should be examined in order to see if the bonus is overpowered. I believe it's not for a few reasons: 1. You need to stay outside of fights for this to be a great benefit. 2. Shields regenerate much faster(my armor was only a quarter healed by the time my shields were healed after the above fight). 3. In order to take advantage of the armor healing capabilities you need to armor tank making you lose speed, which in turn makes you an easier target.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 590	Posted - 2013.06.28 23:41:00 - [244] - Quote Quote: Having corrected my error I need to reiterate however that stripping buffer and rep/regen from Logi suits will make them less support capable and oriented not more. With less non-aggressive survival methods available more logi will spend time fighting rather than directly engaged in support actions. If you can't body shield your fallen squad mate while you revive and repair him you'll spent time shooting the enemy and your squad mate is more likely to bleed out before you get to him. If your squad mate is dead/respawns his ammo is refreshed and he won't be needing those hives so often. With fewer WPs coming in from Equip slots and both earnings & survival based on killing the motivation to skill into or fit and field support gear is diminished because both it's tactical application and it's potential rewards have been diminished. Only the Caldari Suit offers a buffer, and the Amarr Suit offers reps, The Gallente and Minmatar both have supportive actions. My suggestion is to provide bonuses to enhance their logistic abilities. Yes, the nanohives one may encourage people to play the Assault Logi, and since I dropped the damage nerf portion of this thread long ago, it would be viable, but at the moment the logi as assault plague is far greater than those wanting a few extra ticks of their nanohives. It's people wanting Nanohives, Uplinks, and mega-buffer on Caldari Suits. To avoid further confusion in this department, as some have screamed at me over the whole '5hps thing' is this. Note: All are put at Prototype Skill Level Gallente Logistics Dropsuit Logistics Suit Bonus - 5 armor hps Gallente Racial - 25% reduction in CPU and PG requirements for Equipment Amarr Logistics Dropsuit Logistics Suit Bonus - 5 armor hps Amarr Racial - 25% more effectiveness from Repair Tools Caldari Logistics Dropsuit Logistics Suit bonus - 5% Shield Regen Caldari Racial - 10% Extra Nanite Clusters for Nanohives Minmatar Suit Bonus Logistics Suit Bonus - 5% Shield Regen Minmatar Racial - 25% Hacking Speed Increase So the generic 5hps is gone from Shield Tanking Suits... and the so called OP suit bonus from the Caldari Suit is replaced with a supportive skill. The Amarr Suit (hopefully with a buff to it's BASE Stats prior to this) gets the ability to repair more, and faster. AS to the particular skills affecting the different suits. I'm not sure how, or why, CCP is insistent they cant have the suits effect different skill point results. But I still believe that giving generic bonuses to all Suits based on their type (also applies to Armor-tanked Assault Suits that get Shield Recharge Bonus) is bad design. You want synergy in bonuses, not counter-active bonuses. Updated the original post with this new idea, (still retains the old abandoned idea so as to show the evolution / redirection and not confuse others as to the replies.)
Patoman Radiant ZionTCD 139	Posted - 2013.06.29 00:45:00 - [245] - Quote This is a good idea, in short he gave all the suits equaly good bonuses. and one to help tanking that is relective of if the suit is actualy armor or sheild tank Compared with the cookie cutter logi bonus, and widely different racial bonus, somehow a random player identified a fix better then ccp. Though I wonder if the ammar bonus is self reping, or with the rep tool. Now if olny a semi comptent player was able to give assults not ****** poopwagon bonses so that they will be used again. CCP picking bonuses seems a random scatarshot, they give something sane and desireable to one suit (cal logi) and give sentinals a feedback dam reduction, and caldari logi hybrid weapon reload bonus, both are lol jokestats.
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 98	Posted - 2013.06.29 06:23:00 - [246] - Quote Minmatar has far more armor than shields. A speed bonus might be something to think about but the armor repair is more useful to all logistics suits aside from maybe Caldari(nearly all true logistics players run an armor tank of some sort).
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1224	Posted - 2013.06.29 14:27:00 - [247] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Only the Caldari Suit offers a buffer, and the Amarr Suit offers reps, The Gallente and Minmatar both have supportive actions. My suggestion is to provide bonuses to enhance their logistic abilities. Except the role bonus for all logi which you've also said you'd like removed.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 597	Posted - 2013.06.30 02:56:00 - [248] - Quote Caldari Logistics after bonus change eHP: After Change - 843 Before Change - 934 Gallente Logistics after bonus change eHP: After Change - 698 Before Change - 698 Amarr Logistics eHP: After Change - 736 Before Change - 736 Minmatar Logistics eHP: After Change - 733 Before Change - 733 Values based on Prototype 'max tank' builds. Note only the Caldari Logi is changed on eHP value. Onto the next. The Caldari bonus replaced with nanohive increase. Encouraging support, but also useable solo. Bad? Somehow I doubt anyone wont run a Caldari Logi because they get 'better' nanhovies. The Amarr Current Bonus of 25% extra repping from 'local' armor reps. Complex Armor Repairers repair 5hps..., combined with the Skill-based increase to effectiveness and the Amar Logi Bonus at most, you're gaining an extra 2.5 HPs for a total of 7.5 HPs from each Complex Repper. With the current 5 HPs Bonus, and maxxing your Armor Lows with Reppers, you get 27.5 HPs. The Caldari Logi gets a 'BASE' 20hps on it's Shield. With no modules, or skills affecting it. So the Amarr Bonus is much less valuable, and thus, removed to bring in a support-style one that encourages pairing up with the other Amarrian Suit, a rep bonus to it's tool, up to 25%. A Core Repair Tool can rep 2 targets at 35 HPs, so a 25% bonus to that means 2 Targets can be repaired for 43.75 HPs, a net gain of 17.5 HPs. I hear Heavies and other Armor Tank Dropsuits crying out in cheers. The differentiation of shield and Armor Bonuses for particular Logistics suits is pretty linear. Minmatar are famed for being a 'jack of all trades' in New Eden, being able to Armor Tank on some ships, and shield tank on others. In this game, I believe the fact they are currently one of the fastest Logis, means they would favour shields to retain as much of that speed as possible. the 5% to Shield Regen was prosposed as a roughly equivalent. on the above 20HPs an extra 5% gives 1 HPS. It could possible be extended to 10-25% to equivalent the current 'Assault' Bonus. I have never put off hand the risk Vs. Reqards. I have simply sidestepped the issue to get to the core mechanics. Once Logis are able to support MORE effectively and are encouraged to do so via in-game mechanics, then offering incentive that via rewards is part two. And nothing is stopping them from doing both at the same time. There is little risk in throwing down a nano-hive, but a hefty risk in repping a Heavy or 2 engaged in a gunfight. The rewards should scale with the risk, I do not disagree with you there, but the evidence you portray is a concrete link.. built on sand. If the mechanics fail, no one will do it, no matter what rewards you offer, and if the rewards fail, the mechanics will still work. Building the mechanic to work first, builds the solid base to build rewards on top.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 327	Posted - 2013.06.30 03:09:00 - [249] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Caldari Logistics after bonus change eHP: After Change - 843 Before Change - 934 Gallente Logistics after bonus change eHP: After Change - 698 Before Change - 698 Amarr Logistics eHP: After Change - 736 Before Change - 736 Minmatar Logistics eHP: After Change - 733 Before Change - 733 Values based on Prototype 'max tank' builds. Note only the Caldari Logi is changed on eHP value. Onto the next. The Caldari bonus replaced with nanohive increase. Encouraging support, but also useable solo. Bad? Somehow I doubt anyone wont run a Caldari Logi because they get 'better' nanhovies. The Amarr Current Bonus of 25% extra repping from 'local' armor reps. Complex Armor Repairers repair 5hps..., combined with the Skill-based increase to effectiveness and the Amar Logi Bonus at most, you're gaining an extra 2.5 HPs for a total of 7.5 HPs from each Complex Repper. With the current 5 HPs Bonus, and maxxing your Armor Lows with Reppers, you get 27.5 HPs. The Caldari Logi gets a 'BASE' 20hps on it's Shield. With no modules, or skills affecting it. So the Amarr Bonus is much less valuable, and thus, removed to bring in a support-style one that encourages pairing up with the other Amarrian Suit, a rep bonus to it's tool, up to 25%. A Core Repair Tool can rep 2 targets at 35 HPs, so a 25% bonus to that means 2 Targets can be repaired for 43.75 HPs, a net gain of 17.5 HPs. I hear Heavies and other Armor Tank Dropsuits crying out in cheers. The differentiation of shield and Armor Bonuses for particular Logistics suits is pretty linear. Minmatar are famed for being a 'jack of all trades' in New Eden, being able to Armor Tank on some ships, and shield tank on others. In this game, I believe the fact they are currently one of the fastest Logis, means they would favour shields to retain as much of that speed as possible. the 5% to Shield Regen was prosposed as a roughly equivalent. on the above 20HPs an extra 5% gives 1 HPS. It could possible be extended to 10-25% to equivalent the current 'Assault' Bonus. I have never put off hand the risk Vs. Reqards. I have simply sidestepped the issue to get to the core mechanics. Once Logis are able to support MORE effectively and are encouraged to do so via in-game mechanics, then offering incentive that via rewards is part two. And nothing is stopping them from doing both at the same time. There is little risk in throwing down a nano-hive, but a hefty risk in repping a Heavy or 2 engaged in a gunfight. The rewards should scale with the risk, I do not disagree with you there, but the evidence you portray is a concrete link.. built on sand. If the mechanics fail, no one will do it, no matter what rewards you offer, and if the rewards fail, the mechanics will still work. Building the mechanic to work first, builds the solid base to build rewards on top. I have to disagree with these numbers, the initial ones at least Amarr Logistics eHP: After Change - 843 Before Change - 934 Minmatar eHP: After Change - 698 Before Change - 698 Caldari eHP: After Change - 736 Before Change - 736 Gallente eHP: After Change - 733 Before Change - 733 Values based on Prototype 'max tank' builds. I believe these should be the proper values, the Amarr trade off a hefty amount of speed and module slots for high base HP and a side arm, they should have the highest EHP not the Caldari. The Minmatar trade off HP for speed, and an extra equipment slot so they should have the lowest HP. The Gallente trade off a high slot, for an extra equipment but they do not have the versatility or speed of a Minmatar so their HP should be higher, and the Caldari well they are the Caldari and CCP will always favor them not much to say but although I switched them to have their HP almost the same as the Gallente it should be a bit higher; but not higher than the Amarr who make a big sacrifice, in speed and versatility and yet they currently have the 3rd lowest EHP. On the second part of your thread, a repair tool bonus for the Amarr is not as good as you think, a repair tool is rather useless in active battle and it is best used to heal-as-you-go, or when reviving your teammates. When it comes to active battle the only person that you should depend on is yourself, specially when armor tanking.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1228	Posted - 2013.06.30 05:13:00 - [250] - Quote See the post by BL4CKST4R first. Regarding the Tank values, are these numbers based off of raw "buffer" HP tanked builds or fully eHP derived builds with reps/regen included? If true eHP builds rather than pure buffer what time frame/context was used to calculate their total values? I would like to keep my replies and comparisons consistent with yours. Moving on. Cal Nano bonus: This will still be a very "slayer" suit even with this change. Not that it would have to be but it could lend itself to that. During Chrome and before there were plenty of proto Assaults who ran duel nanohives and I've heard more than a couple saying they wish they still could especially after the Uprising nerf to hives. Even with that I don't think it would be "a better assault than the assault" but then again neither would the current version with a mild 1-2% reduction. Once CCP has fixed the equipment scaling and added the new shield mods this could still be a viable bonus but since you can't separate tactical rewards from WP rewards without compromising balance it's still going to be feeding into other problems/distortions until the fix is in for equipment. Amarr bonus: Armor tanking is generally weaker than shields right now but that's a flaw in the baseline of armor tanking not in the Amarr racial bonus. Leaving that aside the example presented assumes there are two targets to heal that far and that the, now even squisher, Logi isn't dead before/during these rep cycles. Also if more reps are needed the core focused repair tool delivers 105 HP/s and while yes the new buff would improve that it's very rare that such a bump would make a functional diffrence. I use the core focused and usually either A) the target is repped in moments, or B) the target is taking so much incoming fire that they go down anyway and even with the +25% the added reps wouldn't amount to a single GEK round from an unmodded gun fired by an unskilled user landing in the body. The overall value of the Amarr logi is much higher with better survivability than it is with a buff to reps which will be off the feild as soon as his bright yellow body hits the dirt. I've played an Amarr Logi throughout most of Uprising running as primary support for PC squads with several corps and it was my survival (even stationed behind my assault and heavy brothers) which was most lacking. The other support logi I've spoken with relate similar experiences. Risk vs Reward this is a core mechanic. The Black Jackal wrote: I have never put off hand the risk Vs. Reqards. I have simply sidestepped the issue to get to the core mechanics. Once Logis are able to support MORE effectively and are encouraged to do so via in-game mechanics, then offering incentive that via rewards is part two. And nothing is stopping them from doing both at the same time. There is little risk in throwing down a nano-hive, but a hefty risk in repping a Heavy or 2 engaged in a gunfight. This quote portrays a false dichotomy, proper rewards are specifically a key part of how players are encouraged to take any action via in-game mechanics. WPs are present not as a "carrot" or pat on the head they are to represent the tactial contributions of that Merc and the actions taken. The current system is imperfect, granted, but CCP knows this and is improving it. Meanwhile treating tactical value and earnings value as isolated rather than parallel and complimentary in my experience creates greater potential for imbalance. Leaving that aside however there's another aspect of the quoted text I'd like to point out. Being better at support actions specifically does not result in a direct net gain in actual ability to support. Speed, survival, range, and expense (in CPU/PG, ISK, SP) all contribute to the final result. Yes the risk of repping squad mates in fire fight is greater than dropping a hive at a secure location, but it's roughly the same as dropping a hive in support of squad mates in that fire fight. Yes dropping an uplink in a remote area is usually safer than repping in a fire fight, but deploying one in a foothold position to keep your guys spawing for that fight is nearly the same risk as applying the reps. The long and short of it is that while there are ways to support away from the squad or the front lines most support actions are more frequent/of greater value when carried out at or near the front lines, and if you're going to survive near the front lines while your focus is not on directly killing the hostile forces you need high eHP. Otherwise you're just a comparatively slow moving neon yellow target. If you either can't stay alive long enough to gain more than trivial use from your support gear, or if you can't afford to deploy in your support gear without going negative then the mechanics have already failed. Economics, and by extension earnings, are not a secondary tagged on element of New Eden they are a key part of it's beating heart. Once we've moved to the intended iteration of players producing and selling gear as well as fighting anything not properly balanced to earn rewards commensurate with it's cost will wither into obscurity as only those who get their ISKs worth in both tactical and earnings potential from a fitting or mod will be able to afford it's sustained use over the long haul. If cost weren't a key issue then HP and eHP wouldn't be so much of an issue either as suit/clone loss would be much more trivial leaving only respawn and travel time as drawbacks to death. 0.02 ISK Cross

The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 599	Posted - 2013.06.30 14:23:00 - [251] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: I have to disagree with these numbers, the initial ones at least Amarr Logistics eHP: After Change - 843 Before Change - 934 Minmatar eHP: After Change - 698 Before Change - 698 Caldari eHP: After Change - 736 Before Change - 736 Gallente eHP: After Change - 733 Before Change - 733 Values based on Prototype 'max tank' builds. I believe these should be the proper values, the Amarr trade off a hefty amount of speed and module slots for high base HP and a side arm, they should have the highest EHP not the Caldari. The Minmatar trade off HP for speed, and an extra equipment slot so they should have the lowest HP. The Gallente trade off a high slot, for an extra equipment but they do not have the versatility or speed of a Minmatar so their HP should be higher, and the Caldari well they are the Caldari and CCP will always favor them not much to say, but although I switched them to have their HP almost the same as the Gallente it should be a bit higher; but not higher than the Amarr who make a big sacrifice, in speed and versatility and yet they currently have the 3rd lowest EHP. On the second part of your thread, a repair tool bonus for the Amarr is not as good as you think, a repair tool is rather useless in active battle and it is best used to heal-as-you-go, or when reviving your teammates. When it comes to active battle the only person that you should depend on is yourself, specially when armor tanking. Blackstar, the values I took were quoted from you... earlier in this same thread. I'm seriously not saying the Amarr Logistics Suit doesn't need a higher base eHP... again... a separate issue. What I am trying to accomplish here is making mechanics work better for encouraging logistics to play logistics. Cross, while I respect your opinion, and have said I AGREE WITH YOU... so I'm not sure why you're still arguing... the fact is there is NOTHING stopping them from doing both at the same time. I'm addressing the SINGLE mechanic of enhancing Logistical capabilities here. Not rewards for them. I agree (and have said this multiple times) that buffing the rewards for Logistics to match Risk Vs. Reward is something I agree with. What I don't get is that should you get a greater effect from something like a rep tool, nanohive etc... you actually can reduce your risk by some small amount (miniscule in some cases) but doing something better, more efficiently, and faster, means you can 'get in and out' faster. Now I realise this is very situational, but how much does the Amarr Rep bonus Actually net you? Pittance. The 25% extra local reps amounts to less than a single GEK round, even with 3 stacked Rep Having that Amarr Heavy With you, kept alive for just a few more seconds... could mean the difference between the point being held, or the point being taken. I will not say you don't have a valid point, as I said, and will say again, reward and risk should be parallel, like you say... but just because the reward doesn't match up with the risk at this time, doesn't mean you should maintain the status quo and NOT fix the mechanics.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1231	Posted - 2013.06.30 15:13:00 - [252] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Cross, while I respect your opinion, and have said I AGREE WITH YOU... so I'm not sure why you're still arguing... the fact is there is NOTHING stopping them from doing both at the same time. I'm addressing the SINGLE mechanic of enhancing Logistical capabilities here. Not rewards for them. I agree (and have said this multiple times) that buffing the rewards for Logistics to match Risk Vs. Reward is something I agree with. Yes you've said you agree, but you've also continued to push for a change that does not seem either required or on balance useful. I'm glad we agree with the larger theory concerns, and I apologies if I've glossed over that but eHP is vital to the effective support a logi can provide and as stated earlier removal of reps or buffer effects the eHP of a suit/fitting. Put bluntly you cannot support when you're dead so, as stated in my last post, a buff to support actions does not directly correlate to a net buff in support ability. Logi are already slow moving and bright yellow, their greatest weakness in providing close support in a sustained effective manner is eHP. Quote: What I don't get is that should you get a greater effect from something like a rep tool, nanohive etc... you actually can reduce your risk by some small amount (miniscule in some cases) but doing something better, more efficiently, and faster, means you can 'get in and out' faster. In my experience "in and out" is much easier for a Scout, or even an Assault, to accomplish. They are less noticeable in color, they are able to focus on killing hostiles who see them, and they both move faster than the Logi even before you add any armor plates. In fact an Assault suit running 1 Complex Armor Plate moves at essentially the base speed of a Logi but has higher eHP due to higher base stats. The back of the hitbox is also key, just like a headshot, to take more damage with the combined back of the head taking nearly double headshot damage from infantry light weapons (statement is general all efficiency ratings are variant by slight amounts) so turning and running is usually fatal for a slow moving target, as is walking backwards out of a firefight. In short, aside from when the squad is dug in with proper cover, "in and out" usually isn't a real option for a logi providing close support. And the best value for most of the support equipment is in that close role. Revives and reps being close is required. Hives and uplinks being close is optimal, especially in the case of hives. REs being close to lock down an objective/area upon position is preferable. The active scanner can be used at more range but it earns nothing and the survival of a (non-sniping) logi goes down when separated from a squad. Quote: Now I realise this is very situational, but how much does the Amarr Rep bonus Actually net you? Pittance. The 25% extra local reps amounts to less than a single GEK round, even with 3 stacked Rep Having that Amarr Heavy With you, kept alive for just a few more seconds... could mean the difference between the point being held, or the point being taken. Agreed in its current state the Amarr rep bonus is of trivial use, but as I stated in my last post that is an effect of the Armor vs Shield tank imbalance which needs to be fixed anyway. Just like the Amarr Assault skill, it's not that the skill is bad but rather the gear it supports is weak enough right now that the skill just doesn't functionally matter. In both cases it's the related gear that needs fixed. (And as we've both agreed the Amarr Logi suit is underpowered at the moment) Quote: I will not say you don't have a valid point, as I said, and will say again, reward and risk should be parallel, like you say... but just because the reward doesn't match up with the risk at this time, doesn't mean you should maintain the status quo and NOT fix the mechanics. I see where you're coming from with fixing the mechanics we can directly address and I support that but it must be done with the concept of rewards in mind or we're sowing the seeds of future imbalance. The Active Scanner is a great piece of gear with great potential tactical utility and it's rarely used because at present equipping one is a "dead" slot when it comes to rewards and survival, the combination of which comes down to cost which is why I keep bringing up 'risk v reward'. The Repair Tool still carried 100% of it's tactical value after the WP nerf but use of it dwindled almost to nothing, in fact I can't even name 5 logi who still ran it (even tho I can include myself as 1 on that list). Injectors are currently bugged so while their paper rewards and tactical value remain the same their net usefulness is reduced and they are currently fit by very few Mercs. In each case any mod that is a "dead space" through lack of tactical OR earnings value becomes nearly unused. I understand you're trying to focus on just one side of the coin but separating the aspects really does not work, and that will become even more pronounced the farther into player rather than NPC driven the Econ gets. A change which is an explicitly stated goal that CCP has. I am not trying to be adversarial towards you as an individual, it's simply that the two sides of the tactical/earnings dynamic need to be build and balanced together not separately. The equipment use trends over the last several builds highlight this. Cheers, Cross
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 329	Posted - 2013.06.30 21:00:00 - [253] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: I have to disagree with these numbers, the initial ones at least Amarr Logistics eHP: After Change - 843 Before Change - 934 Minmatar eHP: After Change - 698 Before Change - 698 Caldari eHP: After Change - 736 Before Change - 736 Gallente eHP: After Change - 733 Before Change - 733 Values based on Prototype 'max tank' builds. I believe these should be the proper values, the Amarr trade off a hefty amount of speed and module slots for high base HP and a side arm, they should have the highest EHP not the Caldari. The Minmatar trade off HP for speed, and an extra equipment slot so they should have the lowest HP. The Gallente trade off a high slot, for an extra equipment but they do not have the versatility or speed of a Minmatar so their HP should be higher, and the Caldari well they are the Caldari and CCP will always favor them not much to say, but although I switched them to have their HP almost the same as the Gallente it should be a bit higher; but not higher than the Amarr who make a big sacrifice, in speed and versatility and yet they currently have the 3rd lowest EHP. On the second part of your thread, a repair tool bonus for the Amarr is not as good as you think, a repair tool is rather useless in active battle and it is best used to heal-as-you-go, or when reviving your teammates. When it comes to active battle the only person that you should depend on is yourself, specially when armor tanking. Blackstar, the values I took were quoted from you... earlier in this same thread. I'm seriously not saying the Amarr Logistics Suit doesn't need a higher base eHP... again... a separate issue. What I am trying to accomplish here is making mechanics work better for encouraging logistics to play logistics. Cross, while I respect your opinion, and have said I AGREE WITH YOU... so I'm not sure why you're still arguing... the fact is there is NOTHING stopping them from doing both at the same time. I'm addressing the SINGLE mechanic of enhancing Logistical capabilities here. Not rewards for them. I agree (and have said this multiple times) that buffing the rewards for Logistics to match Risk Vs. Reward is something I agree with. What I don't get is that should you get a greater effect from something like a rep tool, nanohive etc... you actually can reduce your risk by some small amount (miniscule in some cases) but doing something better, more efficiently, and faster, means you can 'get in and out' faster. Now I realise this is very situational, but how much does the Amarr Rep bonus Actually net you? Pittance. The 25% extra local reps amounts to less than a single GEK round, even with 3 stacked Rep Having that Amarr Heavy With you, kept alive for just a few more seconds... could mean the difference between the point being held, or the point being taken. I will not say you don't have a valid point, as I said, and will say again, reward and risk should be parallel, like you say... but just because the reward doesn't match up with the risk at this time, doesn't mean you should maintain the status quo and NOT fix the mechanics. Those were the current values not suggestions lol, I apologize if you took those as suggestions.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 600	Posted - 2013.07.01 00:01:00 - [254] - Quote I'm not aiming to separate the aspects. I'm working on one side of the coin, instigating change, then worrying about rewards. You approach the two as a single entity, and I agree with you, but that shouldn't prevent While you say it isn't a direct link to being an effective logi to change the buffs in such a way, it is a direct link to Logistics Potential. It does come down to the player, and how the player plays... if they aren't into using rep tools, maybe an Amarr Logistics Suit isn't for them. Just like, at the moment, an Amarrian Assault generally runs Lasers. Now while you can run anything on them you want, running lasers and scrambler rifles is the 'most efficient' use of it's bonuses. In other words, it has 'greater potential' using lasers. Doesn't mean you have to use it. That's what I'm aiming to get from this. As stated by the figures above, the tank variable is quite small in overall comparison (except in the case of the Caldari logistics.) While giving more Logistics potential could be extremely beneficial. With these changes I would also suggest a buff to the baseline eHP of the Logistics suits across the board. But that would be a secondary influence. Not based on the role of the Logistics suit. I think the benefit of better nanohives on the 'Logistics Slayers' would be less than believed. Nanohives are stationary, and do not lend themselves to the usual slayer mentality of constantly moving and being where the action is.
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 102	Posted - 2013.07.01 17:41:00 - [255] - Quote Base logistics bonuses should be focused on survivability or useful support bonuses. A bonus to nanohives isn't that great of an option as a racial suit bonus, but expanding the idea for the logistics suit bonus to include all equipment would be alright(3-5% efficacy per level, no change to fitting requirements). For example: Using Militia Equipment - A repair tool would do 28.75 HP/s(31.25 HP/s @25%)(reg. 25 HP/s) - A drop uplink would have 12 spawns(13 @25%)(reg. 10) with no spawn time adjustments - A nanohive would have 41 clusters(45 @25%)(reg. 36) and resupply at a rate of 8.6% of your total ammo(9.4% @25%)(reg. 7.5%) - The injector would revive you with 34.5% of your armor(37.5% @25%)(reg. 30%). Using prototype items - A repair tool would do 40.25 HP/s(43.75 HP/s @25%)(reg. 35 HP/s) - A drop uplink would have 29 spawns(31 @25%)(reg. 25) with -57.5% spawn time modifier(-62.5% @25%)(reg-50%) - A nanohive would have 83 clusters(90 @25%)(reg. 72) and resupply at a rate of 34.5% of your total ammo(37.5% @25%)(reg. 30%) - The injector would revive you with 92% of your armor(100% @25%)(reg. 80%). Active scanners could be buffed as well in a similar manner(range, precision, scan time, duration and angle), as well as remote and proximity explosives by buffing the number of active(basically +1 to all @25%(+2 to one), +1 to most @15% with 2 getting no bonus) and maybe buffing the damage(I can't find the numbers to see if it would be OP). That was for the overall logistics benefit, for individual suits combinations of the below: Hacking speed Suit speed(walk and sprint) Shield regeneration(both time and amount) Stamina amount and regeneration Deploy speed(hives, uplinks, explosives) - this would need to be only part of a racial bonus. Armor penalty reduction(5 or 10% per level eg. for a complex plate that gives 10% speed reduction @ skill level 5 the reduction would be at 7.5%(5% @10%). Some of these above ideas I don't really like, and I still prefer the HP regeneration over equipment efficacy(yet more skill point needed in a skill point heavy class plus the loss of a low slot) but if it must be changed what I put above is a decent option.


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