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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1454
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Posted - 2013.05.12 02:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
Since I get the feeling that most people write and read in General Discussion exclusively, I am copying and pasting this from Feedback/Requests.
It's the racial bonuses. They seem completely and utterly arbitrary, and the game's overall balance suffers for it. We all know the most glaring and over-discussed racial bonus, the Caldari logi shield extender buff, but what about the heavy's "weapon feedback damage reduction?" What about the shield recharge rate increase to all the assault suits, even though it mostly benefits Amarr and Caldari? If any of these bonuses have any real reason behind them, may a Dev feel free to come in and tell me about it, but otherwise, I suggest a complete re-work of racial bonuses, and class bonuses.
Assault Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 3% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level Caldari Assault Bonus- 3% shield extender increase per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 3% armor plate HP bonus increase per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- Keep 5% sidearm clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% armor repair module rate increase per level
Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- Keep +1 armor repair per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair tool rate increase per level
Heavy Heavy Dropsuit Bonus- 3% hand-held weaponry damage received reduction per level Amarr Heavy Bonus- 2% dropsuit shield and armor increase per level
Scout Scout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level Gallente Scout Bonus- Keep 10% scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level
You can see, excluding scouts, the bonuses have been changed to fit the role of the suit. The assault dropsuit's role has been strengthened for long life and general combat, the logistics dropsuit's role has been strengthened to triage and miscellaneous activities, and the heavy dropsuit's role has been strengthened to survivability beyond the assault dropsuit. Scouts still retain their recon and intelligence roles, and they are all spec'd to do what they are meant to do. Most importantly, there were no dropsuit base stat nerfs, which seems to be most people's ideas to fix imbalances.
Feel free to make your own amendments, and comment. |
XXfootnoteXX
DUST University Ivy League
262
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
+1.
Personal preference makes me want the bonus to armor repair for assault to go to the Gallente though. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Didn't even read it but you have my support, I'll give you double support once I actually read it [8)] |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1456
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Posted - 2013.05.12 03:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
XXfootnoteXX wrote:+1.
Personal preference makes me want the bonus to armor repair for assault to go to the Gallente though.
I briefly considered it, but I wouldn't know what to put in place for the Amarr assault suit. |
Kleanur Guy
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
226
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'd probably drop the assault bonus to 1%, 15% or even 10% at max is rediculously powerful. Amarr and gallente should swap :) and the extender/plate increases to 2%. I think maybe even 1% to the amarr heavy bonus, 35% increase to armor/shields with maxed skills is A LOT. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:XXfootnoteXX wrote:+1.
Personal preference makes me want the bonus to armor repair for assault to go to the Gallente though. I briefly considered it, but I wouldn't know what to put in place for the Amarr assault suit. What about energy weapons +1%? Scramblers, lasers and such.
I want the armor repair module rate bonus back on the logi suit lol |
Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
388
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
You make a pretty decent thread when you're not trollin'. I think these changes make way more sense than the bonuses we have now.
You sir get a +1. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1459
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Posted - 2013.05.12 03:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kleanur Guy wrote:I'd probably drop the assault bonus to 1%, 15% or even 10% at max is rediculously powerful. Amarr and gallente should swap :) and the extender/plate increases to 2%. I think maybe even 1% to the amarr heavy bonus, 35% increase to armor/shields with maxed skills is A LOT.
I can see where you are coming from with the damage increase, but I figured a large damage bonus would cut out people using logistics suits in place of assaults due to versatility, but now that I think about it 2% makes more sense. The reason I put the Amarr bonus where it is is because I jacked it from the current Amarr logi, so I figured it would fit with the race.
As for the heavy, from the (very limited) knowledge I have of EvE lore, I figured high raw eHP fit well with the Amarr heavy suit, plus a 10% bonus only gives a total of 80 more eHP. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1459
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Logi Bro wrote:XXfootnoteXX wrote:+1.
Personal preference makes me want the bonus to armor repair for assault to go to the Gallente though. I briefly considered it, but I wouldn't know what to put in place for the Amarr assault suit. What about energy weapons +1%? Scramblers, lasers and such. I want the rate repair rate back on the logi suit lol
Energy weapon damage or weapon cooldown for the assault? I took away from the Amarr logi because I wanted all logi bonuses to be non-combat related since many people have been flipping out over logissaults |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:I jacked it from the current Amarr logi, so I figured it would fit with the race. Theif! I want it back! ... |
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NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
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Posted - 2013.05.12 03:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote: I took away from the Amarr logi because I wanted all logi bonuses to be non-combat related since many people have been flipping out over logissaults
But we're thee combat logis, in theory.. it's hard with the lower base health.
E'hh really good list though. |
XXfootnoteXX
DUST University Ivy League
262
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:XXfootnoteXX wrote:+1.
Personal preference makes me want the bonus to armor repair for assault to go to the Gallente though. I briefly considered it, but I wouldn't know what to put in place for the Amarr assault suit.
Just swap them out. My understanding is Ammar is more about having the biggest armor anyways and Gal is more about tech. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
XXfootnoteXX wrote:Logi Bro wrote:XXfootnoteXX wrote:+1.
Personal preference makes me want the bonus to armor repair for assault to go to the Gallente though. I briefly considered it, but I wouldn't know what to put in place for the Amarr assault suit. Just swap them out. My understanding is Ammar is more about having the biggest armor anyways and Gal is more about tech. Not in dust they're not, apparently the Amarr wisened up a bit No I idea why Gallente got dumber though |
Adelia Lafayette
DUST University Ivy League
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
I agree amarr are armor buffer gallente are on automation. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1459
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Posted - 2013.05.12 03:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Logi Bro wrote: I took away from the Amarr logi because I wanted all logi bonuses to be non-combat related since many people have been flipping out over logissaults
But we're thee combat logis, in theory.. it's hard with the lower base health. E'hh really good list though.
I actually didn't consider the fact that Amarr logi's were meant for half-combat, do you truly think repair module bonus would fit better, if so, would Amarr assault suits fit better with energy weapon cooldown or energy weapon damage? |
ZDub 303
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Side arm clip capacity is so lackluster for 3.1 million exp.. I'd be more interested in 2% light weapon reload speed per level instead. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1459
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Side arm clip capacity is so lackluster for 3.1 million exp.. I'd be more interested in 2% light weapon reload speed per level instead.
I always imagined Minmatar having wildcard bonuses, would 5% light weapon clip capacity per level be OP? |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Logi Bro wrote: I took away from the Amarr logi because I wanted all logi bonuses to be non-combat related since many people have been flipping out over logissaults
But we're thee combat logis, in theory.. it's hard with the lower base health. E'hh really good list though. I actually didn't consider the fact that Amarr logi's were meant for half-combat, do you truly think repair module bonus would fit better, if so, would Amarr assault suits fit better with energy weapon cooldown or energy weapon damage? Not sure about the logis, I am one and therefore my opinion is biased But I would give the Amarr a slower heat build up rate, shorter cool-downs are nice, but useless if you never actually overheat. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Side arm clip capacity is so lackluster for 3.1 million exp.. I'd be more interested in 2% light weapon reload speed per level instead. flaylocks my friend, flaylocks |
Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
388
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
I think Amarr are traditionally high dps but preventing overheat may make a big difference there. Have to wait and see what happens with the scrambler rifle.
Hope a dev is looking at this thread. |
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NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
I noticed that sentinels shared their bonus with assaults, and while I have no problem with it, I'm sure someone would call it lazy on CCP's part. What if instead of another damage bonus, they get a movement speed bonus?
Or a reduction in armor plate penalties, say 10% per level, so that at level 5 a complex plate would have a 5% movement instead of 10%?
Not sure which one heavies would actually prefer. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1462
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
That's actually a 2% damage received reduction per level, compensates for the assault's damage bonus. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
712
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
+1 Only change I would make is give the Gallente -2% armor plate movement penalty per level. That way they can have a complex plate without the speed penalty. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:That's actually a 2% damage received reduction per level, compensates for the assault's damage bonus. Ahh, good call, I misread that |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:+1 Only change I would make is give the Gallente -2% armor plate movement penalty per level. That way they can have a complex plate without the speed penalty. We'll be getting plates with no penalties soon(eventually), that +3% will really help them out, as long as the plates are decent enough to compete with shield extenders. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1466
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
bump |
Kleanur Guy
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
229
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cosgar wrote:+1 Only change I would make is give the Gallente -2% armor plate movement penalty per level. That way they can have a complex plate without the speed penalty. We'll be getting plates with no penalties soon(eventually), that +3% will really help them out, as long as the plates are decent enough to compete with shield extenders.
I wouldn't expect these plates any time soon. |
WyrmHero1945
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
256
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
The bonuses of the OP look really nice and matches the role/class very well. Minmatar assault should be light/sidearm clipsize, sidearm-only clipsize seems too UP. |
Guildo Crow
ZionTCD Unclaimed.
28
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
+1
The Specialized suit traits, definitely need to be looked at. |
DigiOps
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
215
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Glad to see the focus shift from copious amounts of QQ to something more constructive. :) |
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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
309
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Honestly, I'm surprised that the bonuses don't look like this already. +1
Somebody point a CPM / Dev in the direction of this thread. |
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1023
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
I suggest giving Gallente Armor regeneration while giving Amarr the plate HP. Gallente are more quick regeneration types while Amarr are the high eHP type. Maybe give Gallente same bonus as logi? (5hp/s) |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1469
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I suggest giving Gallente Armor regeneration while giving Amarr the plate HP. Gallente are more quick regeneration types while Amarr are the high eHP type. Maybe give Gallente same bonus as logi? (5hp/s)
Changed things around again, many people asked for Gallente being active and Amarr being buffer. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1469
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:04:00 -
[34] - Quote
bumped again |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
346
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
I hope CCP sees this before all the QQ threads send it back to the 2nd page... |
Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
220
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:22:00 -
[36] - Quote
Not just racial bonuses, but common bonuses for each specialization. Different races value armor and shields differently, so why should any of the common bonuses try to mess with armor or shields? |
Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
388
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Bump. |
Rorschach Mustang
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
+1.
This would make specializing into all the Logi suits more viable. Pick the one that you'd feel you do the most in the field and stick with that. I'd prob go with the Amarr one if it was changed to Repping bonus. |
Harkon Vysarii
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
250
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:09:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sorry but I have to disagree with Amarr Assault. I want my Heat Buildup Skill! |
Rolf The Viking
Ill Omens EoN.
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:15:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'm down with the bonuses. Thanks for making a reasonable Logi thread. |
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1474
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Harkon Vysarii wrote:Sorry but I have to disagree with Amarr Assault. I want my Heat Buildup Skill!
Is the armor plate bonus completely and utterly useless to you, or do you just think that heat buildup would be more useful to an assault player's gameplay? |
Alantir Kavees
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:28:00 -
[42] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Harkon Vysarii wrote:Sorry but I have to disagree with Amarr Assault. I want my Heat Buildup Skill! Is the armor plate bonus completely and utterly useless to you, or do you just think that heat buildup would be more useful to an assault player's gameplay?
Amarr Assault suits are the slowest already, using a plate and losing more strafe speed doesn't seem a good idea, as no modules can increase that. I think the current less heat buildup bonus will be key to be competitive using Scrambler Rifles (and even LR), if they overheat too fast. We will find out soon. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1474
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:30:00 -
[43] - Quote
Alantir Kavees wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Harkon Vysarii wrote:Sorry but I have to disagree with Amarr Assault. I want my Heat Buildup Skill! Is the armor plate bonus completely and utterly useless to you, or do you just think that heat buildup would be more useful to an assault player's gameplay? Amarr Assault suits are the slowest already, using a plate and losing more strafe speed doesn't seem a good idea, as no modules can increase that. I think the current less heat buildup skill will be key to be competitive using Scrambler Rifles (and even LR), if they overheat too fast. We will find out soon.
Changed Amarr Bonus to the recommended. |
Rorschach Mustang
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:34:00 -
[44] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Alantir Kavees wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Harkon Vysarii wrote:Sorry but I have to disagree with Amarr Assault. I want my Heat Buildup Skill! Is the armor plate bonus completely and utterly useless to you, or do you just think that heat buildup would be more useful to an assault player's gameplay? Amarr Assault suits are the slowest already, using a plate and losing more strafe speed doesn't seem a good idea, as no modules can increase that. I think the current less heat buildup skill will be key to be competitive using Scrambler Rifles (and even LR), if they overheat too fast. We will find out soon. Changed Amarr Bonus to the recommended.
Or include a bonus that either reduces or negates the armor penalty. Not sure if that'd make it too powerful or not. If they are the slowest already, reducing/negating speed penalty on them wouldn't be such a bad idea. |
Medic 1879
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
281
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
Some good ideas its also nice to see people suggesting things instead of just grabbing their pitchforks and nerfhammers. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1474
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:36:00 -
[46] - Quote
Rorschach Mustang wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Alantir Kavees wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Harkon Vysarii wrote:Sorry but I have to disagree with Amarr Assault. I want my Heat Buildup Skill! Is the armor plate bonus completely and utterly useless to you, or do you just think that heat buildup would be more useful to an assault player's gameplay? Amarr Assault suits are the slowest already, using a plate and losing more strafe speed doesn't seem a good idea, as no modules can increase that. I think the current less heat buildup skill will be key to be competitive using Scrambler Rifles (and even LR), if they overheat too fast. We will find out soon. Changed Amarr Bonus to the recommended. Or include a bonus that either reduces or negates the armor penalty. Not sure if that'd make it too powerful or not. If they are the slowest already, reducing/negating speed penalty on them wouldn't be such a bad idea.
Eventually we will get armor plates that have no movement penalty, it will be a long time from now, but I'd hate to put in a bonus that would be completely obsolete in a few months time. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
348
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:42:00 -
[47] - Quote
Well, the better armor plates would still have a penalty, i don't expect to see the new plates pass 66HP, so it wouldn't be completely useless. Though I prefer the heat build up resistance bonus. |
Sontie
Ill Omens EoN.
295
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:45:00 -
[48] - Quote
BRAVO! But the Gallente scout should increase ALL scanning by 10%, including active scanner. It's to slow to be a flanker scout, so it has to play a mobile support role. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1476
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:49:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sontie wrote:BRAVO! But the Gallente scout should increase ALL scanning by 10%, including active scanner. It's to slow to be a flanker scout, so it has to play a mobile support role.
Seems reasonable, made changes. |
Sontie
Ill Omens EoN.
295
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:53:00 -
[50] - Quote
Minmatar heavy bruiser variant +3% move speed increase per level. Minmatar should always be the fastest and I see the heavy as a master of cqc urban warfare. Caldari Heavy -5% charge times per level Lots of Caldari weapons require charge times. This would turn the Caldari heavy into a walking weapons platform/turret Gallente Heavy Sentinel +5% equipment efficiency (has 1 equipment slot, designed to use bubble shield) OR -5% damage to friendly unit healing it. Defense focused
Caldari scout -5 % shield recharge delay With low overall ehp (like 50 armor) this scout would rely on jumping in and out of cover to harass the enemy. Amarr Scout -10% armor plate speed penalty With good plates, this scout would be able to stand toe to toe with assaults, for a while at least. |
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Sontie
Ill Omens EoN.
295
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
Making the Gallente scout better at scanning across the board would turn it into the perfect rearguard scout/ counter flanker. |
Harkon Vysarii
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
251
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Alantir Kavees wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Harkon Vysarii wrote:Sorry but I have to disagree with Amarr Assault. I want my Heat Buildup Skill! Is the armor plate bonus completely and utterly useless to you, or do you just think that heat buildup would be more useful to an assault player's gameplay? Amarr Assault suits are the slowest already, using a plate and losing more strafe speed doesn't seem a good idea, as no modules can increase that. I think the current less heat buildup bonus will be key to be competitive using Scrambler Rifles (and even LR), if they overheat too fast. We will find out soon.
I think that it would suit how the Amarr operate EVE side rather than constantly worrying about how to be ultra competitive. I have enough armour now. What I want is to be able to fire my Laser and Scrambler Guns as long, if not much longer than my opponents who might wish to do the same, because as it stands the laser over heats much faster than it used to, and the breach scrambler varient could be very useful to a fully specced Amarrian dropsuit. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1476
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
Sontie wrote:Minmatar heavy bruiser variant +3% move speed increase per level. Minmatar should always be the fastest and I see the heavy as a master of cqc urban warfare. Caldari Heavy -5% charge times per level Lots of Caldari weapons require charge times. This would turn the Caldari heavy into a walking weapons platform/turret Gallente Heavy Sentinel +5% equipment efficiency (has 1 equipment slot, designed to use bubble shield) OR -5% damage to friendly unit healing it. Defense focused
Caldari scout -5 % shield recharge delay With low overall ehp (like 50 armor) this scout would rely on jumping in and out of cover to harass the enemy. Amarr Scout -10% armor plate speed penalty With good plates, this scout would be able to stand toe to toe with assaults, for a while at least.
New suits are a long way to come, and I feel if CCP makes the changes aforementioned in the OP, they will think twice about new racial bonuses for suits they add in the future.
If they completely learn no lesson at all and screw the bonuses in the future I will be sure to use these ideas. |
Cruxio
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:20:00 -
[54] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:XXfootnoteXX wrote:+1.
Personal preference makes me want the bonus to armor repair for assault to go to the Gallente though. I briefly considered it, but I wouldn't know what to put in place for the Amarr assault suit.
A decrease in speed reduction for wearing armor plates (meaning they don't walk as slow with armor plates as with other variants)
|
Cruxio
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:24:00 -
[55] - Quote
Sontie wrote:Minmatar heavy bruiser variant +3% move speed increase per level. Minmatar should always be the fastest and I see the heavy as a master of cqc urban warfare. Caldari Heavy -5% charge times per level Lots of Caldari weapons require charge times. This would turn the Caldari heavy into a walking weapons platform/turret Gallente Heavy Sentinel +5% equipment efficiency (has 1 equipment slot, designed to use bubble shield) OR -5% damage to friendly unit healing it. Defense focused
Caldari scout -5 % shield recharge delay With low overall ehp (like 50 armor) this scout would rely on jumping in and out of cover to harass the enemy. Amarr Scout -10% armor plate speed penalty With good plates, this scout would be able to stand toe to toe with assaults, for a while at least.
I've heard rumors that they are working on weaker armor plates with no speed reduction, plus the Caldari and Amarr scout should be geared towards EWAR and other non combat roles of scout that haven't been developed yet considering that the other two are more combat focused. Remember we aren't designed to be faster assaults, we do serve different functions. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1478
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:27:00 -
[56] - Quote
I'd really like to hear from heavy dropsuit users, and whether or not they think their bonuses are satisfactory. I've gotten a lot of feedback from assault, logistics, and some from scouts, but no dedicated fatboys yet. |
arimal lavaren
L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION
251
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:37:00 -
[57] - Quote
Can not like this thread enough this deserves some support. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1480
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
This is my sad face.
It happens when I point my thread out to several CPM members and they completely ignore it. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
891
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Don't worry logi-bro
I am watching this thread closely :)
Personally, I think the CPM needs to keep it's nose out of balance as a whole... because most of the people on it are unable to remain objective and unbiased and consider all of the ramifications of what happens to Y if you change X.
That's not me trash talking my fellow councilmates, that's just the way it is.
I'd love to see more suggestions as a whole from other people as to possible skill changes.
I'd like to see other threads about skill bonus' in general because most of them are well... pretty garbage.
It's much better to link threads like this to CCP than to tell them how to fix it ourselves (That would be bad)
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dullrust
Subsonic Synthesis Alpha Wolf Pack
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:54:00 -
[60] - Quote
Thank you logi bro! Damn its nice to see some logical discussion on this topic. I like all the changes you suggested. To be honest all I care about is the Gallante logi keeping the current bonus. If it weren't for that I could not do my duty as a logi. I hope all the cpm and ccp are paying close attention to your thread. |
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1481
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 21:37:00 -
[61] - Quote
dullrust wrote:Thank you logi bro! Damn its nice to see some logical discussion on this topic. I like all the changes you suggested. To be honest all I care about is the Gallante logi keeping the current bonus. If it weren't for that I could not do my duty as a logi. I hope all the cpm and ccp are paying close attention to your thread.
Thank you, I try my best to come up with my own ideas and also take other's opinions into account. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
764
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 21:41:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP, listen to this guy! |
Harkon Vysarii
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
251
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 22:15:00 -
[63] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:I'd really like to hear from heavy dropsuit users, and whether or not they think their bonuses are satisfactory. I've gotten a lot of feedback from assault, logistics, and some from scouts, but no dedicated fatboys yet.
I'll ask the D6 heavies and post back in a while since I think this thread has some serious merit |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1484
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:28:00 -
[64] - Quote
Looks like I gotta bump this again. |
TheMarkOf22
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
141
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:30:00 -
[65] - Quote
half those bonuses would easily make those classes OP |
Sontie
Ill Omens EoN.
296
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 01:01:00 -
[66] - Quote
I think the entire racial bonus system needs to be re thought.
Basic racial suits should recieve a bonus, so what I would like to see is: Minimatar bonus +2% move speed increase Minmatar Scout +5% Nova Knife damage Minmatar Assault +5% sidearm clipsize Minmatar Logistics +5% repair tool effciency
rough example |
Khemlar Maktaar
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 01:56:00 -
[67] - Quote
I think it shold be 2% damage bonus per lvl for assualts and 3% DR blanket heavy and amarr heavy 3% hp per lvl maybe 5% cos i plate gives more hp then that entire bonus also i think heavies need a higher base hp(like double what it is atm). Since amaar has the highest raw hp id fear how crap the other ones would be hp wise even at 1300 hp and 11.5hps way back when heavyes were awesome in cqc but u would still hand there asses to them at range i dont think people have an actual idea on balance heavy hp wise i think 1200-1700 is a good base hp not inc skills. I also dont think people realise most of the time u can just bugger of and not fight a heavy as they cannot chase u.Mainly my point is heavyies atm do not casue fear in cqc and people just jump at me cos even though im a greatheavy player its easy to kill me cos of poo ehp and hitbox(logi can have more hp then me). Also heavy suits are suppose to have inbuild dr agasint explosives and atm they dont so grenades **** hard and have u seen how much damage REs do to u i got hit for 1800 by 1 WTF u shouldnt be able to 1 shot a heavy with them since there invisible. |
Phoenix Arakyd
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:00:00 -
[68] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Since I get the feeling that most people write and read in General Discussion exclusively, I am copying and pasting this from Feedback/Requests.
It's the racial bonuses. They seem completely and utterly arbitrary, and the game's overall balance suffers for it. We all know the most glaring and over-discussed racial bonus, the Caldari logi shield extender buff, but what about the heavy's "weapon feedback damage reduction?" What about the shield recharge rate increase to all the assault suits, even though it mostly benefits Amarr and Caldari? If any of these bonuses have any real reason behind them, may a Dev feel free to come in and tell me about it, but otherwise, I suggest a complete re-work of racial bonuses, and class bonuses.
Assault Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level Caldari Assault Bonus- 3% shield extender increase per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 5% armor repair module rate increase per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- 5% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level
Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- Keep +1 armor repair per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair tool rate increase per level
Heavy Heavy Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage received reduction per level Amarr Heavy Bonus- 2% dropsuit shield and armor increase per level
Scout Scout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level
You can see, excluding scouts, the bonuses have been changed to fit the role of the suit. The assault dropsuit's role has been strengthened for long life and general combat, the logistics dropsuit's role has been strengthened to triage and miscellaneous activities, and the heavy dropsuit's role has been strengthened to survivability beyond the assault dropsuit. Scouts still retain their recon and intelligence roles, and they are all spec'd to do what they are meant to do. Most importantly, there were no dropsuit base stat nerfs, which seems to be most people's ideas to fix imbalances.
Feel free to make your own amendments, and comment.
EDITS: Assault Dropsuit Bonus changed from 3% to 2% per level, Heavy Dropsuit Bonus changed from 3% to 2% to match. Amarr Logistics given back 5% armor repair module rate bonus, was previously +5% repair tool rate per level, Amarr Assault given back energy weapon heat build-up reduction per level, was previously +5% armor repair module rate per level. Minmatar Assault Bonus changed from +5% sidearm clip size to +5% any hand-held weapon clip size per level. Even more changes: Gallente Assault given +5% armor repair module rate, Amarr Assault given +3% armor plate health bonus per level, Amarr Logi given back original +5% repair tool rate per level. Amarr Assault Bonus changed again, now to 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build up per level. Gallente Scout Bonus affects dropsuit AND active scanner radius now.
So basically, what I posted about the Logi's yesterday. This needs to be done now. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:06:00 -
[69] - Quote
TheMarkOf22 wrote:half those bonuses would easily make those classes OP Back it up with facts/proof or STFU |
Phoenix Arakyd
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:10:00 -
[70] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:TheMarkOf22 wrote:half those bonuses would easily make those classes OP Back it up with facts/proof or STFU
The amount for some of the bonuses would need to be adjusted, but I support the bonus layout in general. |
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Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
231
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:24:00 -
[71] - Quote
Discussing the Gallente Scout's bonus of scan profile, it should probably be greater than 10% per level or give it a greater base value. Right now it has a base value of 10 meters. To see how worthless that is, check this out.
http://s23.postimg.org/vzroe12fv/minimap_ranges.jpg (note I did not make this nor take credit for it)
But ok 10% per level, so prototype Gallente Scout gets 15 meter radius. That is still within that first circle, still pretty useless. But ok Gallente Scout has 4 low slots, so let's use all of those on Complex Range Amplifiers. That is an additional 230%. That puts it's range at 38 meters. Ok, so now you are starting to see some benefit out of this as you reach the first tick on your radar. But that's when you do everything you absolutely can to max out this one attribute, and it leaves you with only 118 CPU to fit a high slot, light weapon, sidearm, grenade, and equipment for a complex tier suit. So maybe it's just me but again, either it needs to be more than a 10% bonus per level or give it a higher base value so that 10% means more. |
Rupture Reaperson
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
123
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:33:00 -
[72] - Quote
More dmg for the assault class, just what we need, sure that will make perfect balance.
Rest its kinda hit and miss. |
Harkon Vysarii
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
252
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:34:00 -
[73] - Quote
Phoenix Arakyd wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Since I get the feeling that most people write and read in General Discussion exclusively, I am copying and pasting this from Feedback/Requests.
It's the racial bonuses. They seem completely and utterly arbitrary, and the game's overall balance suffers for it. We all know the most glaring and over-discussed racial bonus, the Caldari logi shield extender buff, but what about the heavy's "weapon feedback damage reduction?" What about the shield recharge rate increase to all the assault suits, even though it mostly benefits Amarr and Caldari? If any of these bonuses have any real reason behind them, may a Dev feel free to come in and tell me about it, but otherwise, I suggest a complete re-work of racial bonuses, and class bonuses.
Assault Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level Caldari Assault Bonus- 3% shield extender increase per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 5% armor repair module rate increase per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- 5% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level
Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- Keep +1 armor repair per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair tool rate increase per level
Heavy Heavy Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage received reduction per level Amarr Heavy Bonus- 2% dropsuit shield and armor increase per level
Scout Scout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level
You can see, excluding scouts, the bonuses have been changed to fit the role of the suit. The assault dropsuit's role has been strengthened for long life and general combat, the logistics dropsuit's role has been strengthened to triage and miscellaneous activities, and the heavy dropsuit's role has been strengthened to survivability beyond the assault dropsuit. Scouts still retain their recon and intelligence roles, and they are all spec'd to do what they are meant to do. Most importantly, there were no dropsuit base stat nerfs, which seems to be most people's ideas to fix imbalances.
Feel free to make your own amendments, and comment.
EDITS: Assault Dropsuit Bonus changed from 3% to 2% per level, Heavy Dropsuit Bonus changed from 3% to 2% to match. Amarr Logistics given back 5% armor repair module rate bonus, was previously +5% repair tool rate per level, Amarr Assault given back energy weapon heat build-up reduction per level, was previously +5% armor repair module rate per level. Minmatar Assault Bonus changed from +5% sidearm clip size to +5% any hand-held weapon clip size per level. Even more changes: Gallente Assault given +5% armor repair module rate, Amarr Assault given +3% armor plate health bonus per level, Amarr Logi given back original +5% repair tool rate per level. Amarr Assault Bonus changed again, now to 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build up per level. Gallente Scout Bonus affects dropsuit AND active scanner radius now. So basically, what I posted about the Logi's yesterday. This needs to be done now.
I like these bonuses! |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
788
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:39:00 -
[74] - Quote
Sontie wrote:I think the entire racial bonus system needs to be re thought.
Basic racial suits should recieve a bonus, so what I would like to see is: Minimatar bonus +2% move speed increase Minmatar Scout +5% Nova Knife damage Minmatar Assault +5% sidearm clipsize Minmatar Logistics +5% repair tool effciency
rough example Dude, don't take the Minmatar logi's hacking bonus away. That thing is the **** in skirmish when you're defending hacks. All they did was take the silent bonus from chrome and made it better. Caldari Logi needs to be toned down since the shield efficiency bonus from the extender skill stacks with the suits racial bonus and all the Gallente suits need a base +5HP/s armor regen. In EVE Gallente favored mobile low armor, fast regen ships. That should be the base for all their suits. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
788
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:42:00 -
[75] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:Discussing the Gallente Scout's bonus of scan profile, it should probably be greater than 10% per level or give it a greater base value. Right now it has a base value of 10 meters. To see how worthless that is, check this out. http://s23.postimg.org/vzroe12fv/minimap_ranges.jpg (note I did not make this nor take credit for it) But ok 10% per level, so prototype Gallente Scout gets 15 meter radius. That is still within that first circle, still pretty useless. But ok Gallente Scout has 4 low slots, so let's use all of those on Complex Range Amplifiers. That is an additional 230%. That puts it's range at 38 meters. Ok, so now you are starting to see some benefit out of this as you reach the first tick on your radar. But that's when you do everything you absolutely can to max out this one attribute, and it leaves you with only 118 CPU to fit a high slot, light weapon, sidearm, grenade, and equipment for a complex tier suit. So maybe it's just me but again, either it needs to be more than a 10% bonus per level or give it a higher base value so that 10% means more. One thing people have overlooked is that the scan bonus is stack able with scan modules. A friend of mine has been testing this out with passive scanners and precision enhancers. As of right now, their radar can cover a whole Ambush map. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1486
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:57:00 -
[76] - Quote
TheMarkOf22 wrote:half those bonuses would easily make those classes OP
I'm actually curious as to why you think this, any facts or are you just hating on me to reach your quota for the week? |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1486
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:59:00 -
[77] - Quote
Sontie wrote:I think the entire racial bonus system needs to be re thought.
Basic racial suits should recieve a bonus, so what I would like to see is: Minimatar bonus +2% move speed increase Minmatar Scout +5% Nova Knife damage Minmatar Assault +5% sidearm clipsize Minmatar Logistics +5% repair tool effciency
rough example
I think the whole idea behind the racial suits is mostly-as-good-as performance as the specialized version of it, but without any bonuses, so that you are encouraged to specialize farther. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1486
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 03:56:00 -
[78] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:Discussing the Gallente Scout's bonus of scan profile, it should probably be greater than 10% per level or give it a greater base value. Right now it has a base value of 10 meters. To see how worthless that is, check this out. http://s23.postimg.org/vzroe12fv/minimap_ranges.jpg (note I did not make this nor take credit for it) But ok 10% per level, so prototype Gallente Scout gets 15 meter radius. That is still within that first circle, still pretty useless. But ok Gallente Scout has 4 low slots, so let's use all of those on Complex Range Amplifiers. That is an additional 230%. That puts it's range at 38 meters. Ok, so now you are starting to see some benefit out of this as you reach the first tick on your radar. But that's when you do everything you absolutely can to max out this one attribute, and it leaves you with only 118 CPU to fit a high slot, light weapon, sidearm, grenade, and equipment for a complex tier suit. So maybe it's just me but again, either it needs to be more than a 10% bonus per level or give it a higher base value so that 10% means more.
I personally think all the scouts should have a higher base, and the Gallente should have the highest base of the scouts, but I think having to max all scan-radius related skills to have a decent radius seems like a bad idea. A higher base is definitely the answer there.
|
Simone ClovenShield
TRUE TEA BAGGERS Orion Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 04:12:00 -
[79] - Quote
I dont get why you suggest 3 bad-ass changes for Logistics, then you get to Minmatar and its all ohhh lets just leave that worthless +5% hacking speed that has nothing to do with Logistics? Please explain why anyone leveling into Logistics would want that enough to forgo the other 3 options and go Minmatar? |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1486
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 04:16:00 -
[80] - Quote
Simone ClovenShield wrote:I dont get why you suggest 3 bad-ass changes for Logistics, then you get to Minmatar and its all ohhh lets just leave that worthless +5% hacking speed that has nothing to do with Logistics? Please explain why anyone leveling into Logistics would want that enough to forgo the other 3 options and go Minmatar?
I am personally a Minmatar logistics myself, and find my hacking bonus to be both a great squad help and and an invaluable solo tool. Come up to an objective with your squad? Hack it quicker than two people together could while the rest of your squad covers you. Come up to an objective by yourself? Hack it faster to reduce your chances of an enemy sneaking up behind you and putting a few bullets in your head.
There are two skills that reduce hacking time, with both of them maxed you will literally cut your hacking time in half. |
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LittleCuteBunny
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 04:19:00 -
[81] - Quote
+1
This should be moved into feedback. |
Aeon Amadi
WarRavens Orion Empire
1286
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 04:20:00 -
[82] - Quote
Take off the +2% weapon damage bonus off of the Assault suits - we just got the 10% bonus in the patch so this would upset the balance of the game. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1488
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 04:24:00 -
[83] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Take off the +2% weapon damage bonus off of the Assault suits - we just got the 10% bonus in the patch so this would upset the balance of the game.
The damage is all-encompassing to the classes, so more or less everything will be the same. My main purpose to give a damage bonus to assaults is to remove the "logissaults" that have become so common. |
Simone ClovenShield
TRUE TEA BAGGERS Orion Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 05:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Simone ClovenShield wrote:I dont get why you suggest 3 bad-ass changes for Logistics, then you get to Minmatar and its all ohhh lets just leave that worthless +5% hacking speed that has nothing to do with Logistics? Please explain why anyone leveling into Logistics would want that enough to forgo the other 3 options and go Minmatar? I am personally a Minmatar logistics myself, and find my hacking bonus to be both a great squad help and and an invaluable solo tool. Come up to an objective with your squad? Hack it quicker than two people together could while the rest of your squad covers you. Come up to an objective by yourself? Hack it faster to reduce your chances of an enemy sneaking up behind you and putting a few bullets in your head. There are two skills that reduce hacking time, with both of them maxed you will literally cut your hacking time in half.
Sorry i definitely shouldn't have used the word worthless as i can logically see the merit behind such a boost, I just feel the other 3 are very useful to the Logistics class while Minmitar's seems a little random and could be given something else more helpful/usefull. If im alone on this and everyone thinks thats a reasonable bonus then so be it, i'd just very much like to play Minmatar but can't justify picking them as i run very few skirmishes.
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Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
117
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 05:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
I've seen the idea of buffing other suits as opposed to completely nerfing logi posted as a response in a few threads, I'm glad it's getting it's own topic because I think it's the way to go.
On the topic of the specific bonuses in the OP, If you look at the current assault bonuses they are divided between tank and gank. We get the 5% per level shield repair and a weapon based skill. The bonuses proposed vary in that the blanket damage boost provides more gank but some of the suits get tank and some get gank. Furthermore, several of the skills double up on bonuses from other skills such as armor repair efficacy.
Why do we have class bonuses at all? My assault class bonus doesn't stack or apply to other suits, it is more like a racial bonus that happens to be the same across races, the same thing applies to the logistics bonus. While armor repair is a sensible bonus to give to the logistics class and I approve it doesn't seem sensible to give a linear bonus to suits whose armor values vary so much.
I really think we should split the blanket assault skill into separate race assault skills with each suit getting specific bonuses to tank and gank. The logi class skill should keep its armor rep but make it +1% of base armor repaired per level rather than just +1 so that the non-shield logis get as much benefit from it.
If the Caldari logi is losing its extender bonus I'm not sure the assault needs it to achieve balance, the base stats support keeping the shield repair bonus as this saves you from having to fit a crippling shield booster to service the enormous amount of shield you will have. The reload skill also makes sense for a long range/sniping race and it translates well to other situations. Most of the balance here is about bringing the Caldari logi into line with this suit and removing its extender bonus achieves a lot of that already. If people still consider a reload speed buff UP I'd recommend recoil reduction for hybrid weapons as that seems a good ranged buff that is a bit stronger.
I also think that a speed penalty modifier for the Gallente suits make more sense than an efficacy bonus. Armor rep is fitted in proportion to armor HP, active rep doesn't really put enough of a dent in enemy dps for it to be your primary tank. You still need a lot of passive armor HP and this pushes the Gallente assault towards the heavy suit in terms of performance. We should be giving it -10% armor plate speed penalty per level. I know this pushes it more towards passive buffer but active tanking doesn't translate well to Dust. While we are getting ferroscale plates eventually I think that keeping full armor plates and their higher HP bonus competitive for armor tanking races is necessary, partly because ferroscale will be implemented. For gank a hybrid weapon damage buff fits nicely here but at a lower rate of gain to keep it in line with other races' bonuses.
As far as the Minmatar assault suit is concerned the clip size bonus is an odd one. It makes sense to some degree but percentage based clip size bonuses scale weirdly, especially for a race who vary between small clip weapons like the mass driver and flaylock pistol and large clip weapons like the SMG. Splash damage radius bonus doesn't make sense (not all Minmatar weapons have splash), ROF increase doesn't make sense (too OP for machine guns). I'll leave this one up to you guys. With few low slots and built in armor rep this speed suit would probably get the most out of a bonus to shield regulator fitting to further incentivize playing as a fast hit and run style suit.
I already like the Amarr weaponry bonus and would agree that it should be left the same. An armor resistance boost would fit well here as it has the advantage of increasing eHP with less need for rep, as befits the more independent medium frame suit.
As far as the specific logi, scout, and heavy bonuses go I don't play as those roles enough to make any substantial suggestions. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
953
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 05:47:00 -
[86] - Quote
+1 to thread
Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair tool rate increase per level-1 to this
Such a bonus has several flaws. It flattens the rep tools values by benefiting the Core tool more on balance and distorting the comparative effects/values of the other reppers. Until CCP full converts repair tool WP earnings to a granular HP based system this bonus will lower the potential WPs earned by reducing the cycles/time required to make those repairs. It gimps the Amarr suit which is already slower and possessing fewer slots thus struggling with survivability even in it's present state.
In addition it promotes the false assumption that durability is somehow outside the role of the Logi. I've been playing Logi since closed (as I'm sure you'll remember we've conversed in several threads along the way ), and providing support for my squad has never been an issue for me, for that matter WP earnings haven't been much of an issue either the two things which have consistently been issues throughout all the builds are A) Mobility B) Survivability
Mobility makes sense, Logi have a lot of gear and less direct need to flank, strafe etc than do the Scout or Assault roles. So while I do cap those skills ASAP most builds I don't begrudge this limitation, it comes with the territory.
Survivability however is another matter, eHP is vastly important to a Logi. As a rule (a few specific Uprising Cal Logi suit builds aside) Logi lack both the dps and speed of either the assault or the scout, furthermore much of our work calls for us to be taking shots on behalf of wounded or downed comrades while getting them to cover and back into fighting form. Add to that the new "shoot me" yellow of logi ships and suits and things have just gotten even more dicey (which is still true even ignoring the brokenly OP TAR). A Logi can't do anything for the squad if that Logi is dead, the repair bonus helps keep a Logi alive but doesn't give the ability to soak sustained damage that a Heavy possesses.
The current bonus to the self repper mod is both the most role/tactically valuable for the Amarr Logi, I searched very extensively prior to spec'ing that the bonus was to self repping not the repair tool. As it stands the Amarr racial skill is an asset on the field which helps mitigate my greatest challenge changed to a repair tool buff it becomes something I wouldn't spec into until after hitting full proto on all my fits and every other Logi suit.
I vehemently oppose the idea of that as a change.
0.02 ISK Cross |
Aeon Amadi
WarRavens Orion Empire
1286
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 08:55:00 -
[87] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Take off the +2% weapon damage bonus off of the Assault suits - we just got the 10% bonus in the patch so this would upset the balance of the game. The damage is all-encompassing to the classes, so more or less everything will be the same. My main purpose to give a damage bonus to assaults is to remove the "logissaults" that have become so common.
Dude, trust me, the Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle does not need anymore damage and I use it religiously. |
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1039
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 08:57:00 -
[88] - Quote
I think the assault damage bonus should be changed to 15%. So logis who want to have the same damage output, need to use two slots. |
Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
389
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:22:00 -
[89] - Quote
daily bump |
Rupture Reaperson
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:28:00 -
[90] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Take off the +2% weapon damage bonus off of the Assault suits - we just got the 10% bonus in the patch so this would upset the balance of the game. The damage is all-encompassing to the classes, so more or less everything will be the same. My main purpose to give a damage bonus to assaults is to remove the "logissaults" that have become so common. NO
If anyting reduce their reload speed or spread, adding damage into an already regular class its just stupid. Hell even increasing ammo clips by 5% per level on assault sounds more balanced. |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
954
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:28:00 -
[91] - Quote
bump / additional consideration
The Cal Logi suit bonus type shouldn't be changed (having some survivability is most certainly in line with being a hot zone medic) the Cal Logi suit bonus amount on the other hand is another matter. I am still unconvinced that it's actually out of line with the Assault suits but it certainly looks to over-preform the rest of the Logi line.
As to the Assault class bonus, upon reflection doing something to vicariously increase the dps output rather than directly increasing the raw damage seems like a better fit. Having the net effect of giving the Assault suits more 'gank' is good and I still fully support that but we've already seen CCP remove the Chrome sharpshooter skill because such a base level bonus was braking balance by pushing weapons outside of their intended battlefield roles, a raw damage bonus could very well do the same. Adding extra reload is likely the best option but the amount would have to be sufficient to provide a worthwhile increase to the balance of outgoing dps. This keeps the Assault line from breaking balance on weapons while increasing their ability to make any (non-heavy) weapon preform better than the other classes can manage with the same gun.
Further considerations as they come (and again +1 to this thread, good show ) Cross |
J Falcs
Bojo's School of the Trades
33
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 17:38:00 -
[92] - Quote
If I had to choose how my logi would function, it would be as follows:
1. Equipment Bonus I think each logi suit should have a plus to an individual type of equipment (similar to how EVE e-war ships specialize in something specific).
Of course, there is some equipment that is more universally used than others (nanohives and nanite injectors come to mind), but this is where I hope CCP lowers SP requirements a tad so that the idea of speccing into a second logi suit is not unheard of or insane. So, as of right now, we have 4 equipments (I will not consider prox and RE for this although if I had to assign one to it, considering Minnie's revolutionary history, I would give it to them). So, Gallente plus to active scanner range or effectiveness, Caldari plus to nanohive nanites (not +10%, but +5%), Amarr plus to repair tool, Minmatar plus to nanite range (allowing a minnie logi to rez someone from a bit further out)
2. Flat Bonus I think the bonus to all logi suits should be -5% fitting requirements to all equipment. Conversely, slightly raise the fitting requirements on the equipment. This would also allow some assault or scout suits to carry more than one equipment (if CCP decides they want assaults with two equip slots), but to do so would hamper fitting in some way.]
3. Logi Buffer Tank This will probably drive people nuts, but I'll suggest it anyway. No logi suit should have any type of damage increase or direct combat effectiveness boosted, i.e., range, damage, cooldown, etc. Also (here we go), no logi suit should have any type of additional tanking ability, i.e., no active tanking bonus, no passive bonus, etc. Instead, logi should have a buff of base EHP. Caldari should have the most shields, Amarr should have the most overall and somewhat equal on shields and armor, Gallente should have the most armor, and Minmatar should have the least EHP but incresaed speed/strafe goes with the "speed tanking" principle.
I want the focus of the suit to be the equipment. Allow modules to be what they are, a way of customizing each logi suit, but at the same time, making NOT using equipment a waste of logi suit effectiveness.
4. Repair Bonus Removal No suit should have an innate armor repair bonus (hence my suggestion to remove them). Armor repairers (local or third-party) should be the only means of armor repair. A well-coordinated squad will not waste a low slot on 1 or 2 HP slow gain. Rather, they will have a repping logi with them to take care of topping off for further engagements.
5. Personal Thoughts and Expectations These are my personal thoughts on my logi suit choice. I chose Minmatar because I like the idea of fast hacking and a little extra speed. But, I regret my decision. First, my speed is not so great that it allows me to move around all that efficiently, and second, more often than not, I'm too busy rezzing healing then to be the hacker once we overtake a point. I find myself using the suit more for logi then point blitzing.
With my suggested changes, I would still be somewhat combat capable, but not as much as the assault or heavy which should have a direct combat bonus in my opinion.
Since I am no expert on assault, scout, or heavy, I'll let others choose this. But I do know what I want and expect from a logi, and I have not received that in Uprising. I want to be better with equipment than those around me. I will say, I always envisioned logi to have the second most EHP off the base suit stats (behind heavy of course) and the assault suits to be the active tankers (although why a gallente and amarr assault suits have a bonus to shield recharge is beyond me). |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
194
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Posted - 2013.05.13 20:07:00 -
[93] - Quote
I don't like the stats for minmatar scout - that melee/ nova bonus is useless. Sure some ppl are enjoying using nova knife because it's more useful than before but it's still an hugely underpowered weapon, don't even want to talk about melee. +10% bonus to radius for gallente scout offers a much more palpable advantage. To make it fair, give minmatar scout +5% per level boost to side arm weapons period - don't limit it to the nova knife.
Otherwise, an excellent post. |
calisk galern
BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:09:00 -
[94] - Quote
my suggestion was simply give logis equipment bonuses and assaults passive bonuses.
logis would get reduced cpu/range/effeciacy to certain equipments
while assault units would get shield/armor regen, speed, and damage |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
414
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:14:00 -
[95] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Take off the +2% weapon damage bonus off of the Assault suits - we just got the 10% bonus in the patch so this would upset the balance of the game. The damage is all-encompassing to the classes, so more or less everything will be the same. My main purpose to give a damage bonus to assaults is to remove the "logissaults" that have become so common. Dude, trust me, the Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle does not need anymore damage and I use it religiously.
Rupture Reaperson wrote:
or you want 90+ dmg TARs? I call bias in here.
Or they could fix the blatantly broken gun? There is nothing wrong with assaults getting a 1-2% damage bonus per level. Especially since heavies bonus would negate that. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1496
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:21:00 -
[96] - Quote
Lots of great responses here, sorry for taking so long to respond, but allow me to take these one at a time now. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1496
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:41:00 -
[97] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:I've seen the idea of buffing other suits as opposed to completely nerfing logi posted as a response in a few threads, I'm glad it's getting it's own topic because I think it's the way to go.
On the topic of the specific bonuses in the OP, If you look at the current assault bonuses they are divided between tank and gank. We get the 5% per level shield repair and a weapon based skill. The bonuses proposed vary in that the blanket damage boost provides more gank but some of the suits get tank and some get gank. Furthermore, several of the skills double up on bonuses from other skills such as armor repair efficacy.
Why do we have class bonuses at all? My assault class bonus doesn't stack or apply to other suits, it is more like a racial bonus that happens to be the same across races, the same thing applies to the logistics bonus. While armor repair is a sensible bonus to give to the logistics class and I approve it doesn't seem sensible to give a linear bonus to suits whose armor values vary so much.
I really think we should split the blanket assault skill into separate race assault skills with each suit getting specific bonuses to tank and gank. The logi class skill should keep its armor rep but make it +1% of base armor repaired per level rather than just +1 so that the non-shield logis get as much benefit from it.
If the Caldari logi is losing its extender bonus I'm not sure the assault needs it to achieve balance, the base stats support keeping the shield repair bonus as this saves you from having to fit a crippling shield booster to service the enormous amount of shield you will have. The reload skill also makes sense for a long range/sniping race and it translates well to other situations. Most of the balance here is about bringing the Caldari logi into line with this suit and removing its extender bonus achieves a lot of that already. If people still consider a reload speed buff UP I'd recommend recoil reduction for hybrid weapons as that seems a good ranged buff that is a bit stronger.
I also think that a speed penalty modifier for the Gallente suits make more sense than an efficacy bonus. Armor rep is fitted in proportion to armor HP, active rep doesn't really put enough of a dent in enemy dps for it to be your primary tank. You still need a lot of passive armor HP and this pushes the Gallente assault towards the heavy suit in terms of performance. We should be giving it -10% armor plate speed penalty per level. I know this pushes it more towards passive buffer but active tanking doesn't translate well to Dust. While we are getting ferroscale plates eventually I think that keeping full armor plates and their higher HP bonus competitive for armor tanking races is necessary, partly because ferroscale will be implemented. For gank a hybrid weapon damage buff fits nicely here but at a lower rate of gain to keep it in line with other races' bonuses.
As far as the Minmatar assault suit is concerned the clip size bonus is an odd one. It makes sense to some degree but percentage based clip size bonuses scale weirdly, especially for a race who vary between small clip weapons like the mass driver and flaylock pistol and large clip weapons like the SMG. Splash damage radius bonus doesn't make sense (not all Minmatar weapons have splash), ROF increase doesn't make sense (too OP for machine guns). I'll leave this one up to you guys. With few low slots and built in armor rep this speed suit would probably get the most out of a bonus to shield regulator fitting to further incentivize playing as a fast hit and run style suit.
I already like the Amarr weaponry bonus and would agree that it should be left the same. An armor resistance boost would fit well here as it has the advantage of increasing eHP with less need for rep, as befits the more independent medium frame suit.
As far as the specific logi, scout, and heavy bonuses go I don't play as those roles enough to make any substantial suggestions.
So, just to get this straight, you think we should completely remove class bonuses and give two racial bonuses per suit? Personally, I wasn't looking to re-write the entire passive bonus system, as I don't see any huge errors with the current system, even if it is a little iffy lore-wise. To the +1% armor repair for logi's, I actually don't see how this would help the low-armor logi's more than the high armor, seeing as it would actually give a larger bonus to Min, Amarr, and Gal then they currently have, and give even less to the Cal than current. To the bonus to shield recharge rate rather than shield extenders for Cal assault, I actually prefer this idea over my original one. I will make changes accordingly and see how people react. To the -10% armor plate penalty for Gal assault, I have actually been asked for this by several people now, and I think I will give the repair module bonus back to its original owner, the Amarr logi and go with this idea for Gal.
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1496
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:42:00 -
[98] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Take off the +2% weapon damage bonus off of the Assault suits - we just got the 10% bonus in the patch so this would upset the balance of the game. The damage is all-encompassing to the classes, so more or less everything will be the same. My main purpose to give a damage bonus to assaults is to remove the "logissaults" that have become so common. Dude, trust me, the Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle does not need anymore damage and I use it religiously.
I believe CCP will nerf the Tac in due time, and I have no doubt CCP will get around to changing weapon balance long before they consider implementing the ideas thrown out to them in this thread. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1496
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:43:00 -
[99] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I think the assault damage bonus should be changed to 15%. So logis who want to have the same damage output, need to use two slots.
Due to the flak I have received so far regarding the much smaller 10% bonus, I think this idea is out the window. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1496
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:45:00 -
[100] - Quote
Rupture Reaperson wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Take off the +2% weapon damage bonus off of the Assault suits - we just got the 10% bonus in the patch so this would upset the balance of the game. The damage is all-encompassing to the classes, so more or less everything will be the same. My main purpose to give a damage bonus to assaults is to remove the "logissaults" that have become so common. NO If anyting reduce their reload speed or spread, adding damage into an already regular class its just stupid. Hell even increasing ammo clips by 5% per level on assault sounds more balanced. or you want 90+ dmg TARs? I call bias in here.
I don't actually use the Tac myself, nor do I use assault suits(Logi Bro) so I hardly think I am biased, like I said before to Aeon, CCP will likely nerf the Tac long before they make any changes recommended to them in this thread. |
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1497
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:49:00 -
[101] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:+1 to thread Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair tool rate increase per level-1 to thisSuch a bonus has several flaws. It flattens the rep tools values by benefiting the Core tool more on balance and distorting the comparative effects/values of the other reppers. Until CCP full converts repair tool WP earnings to a granular HP based system this bonus will lower the potential WPs earned by reducing the cycles/time required to make those repairs. It gimps the Amarr suit which is already slower and possessing fewer slots thus struggling with survivability even in it's present state. In addition it promotes the false assumption that durability is somehow outside the role of the Logi. I've been playing Logi since closed (as I'm sure you'll remember we've conversed in several threads along the way ), and providing support for my squad has never been an issue for me, for that matter WP earnings haven't been much of an issue either the two things which have consistently been issues throughout all the builds are A) Mobility B) Survivability Mobility makes sense, Logi have a lot of gear and less direct need to flank, strafe etc than do the Scout or Assault roles. So while I do cap those skills ASAP most builds I don't begrudge this limitation, it comes with the territory. Survivability however is another matter, eHP is vastly important to a Logi. As a rule (a few specific Uprising Cal Logi suit builds aside) Logi lack both the dps and speed of either the assault or the scout, furthermore much of our work calls for us to be taking shots on behalf of wounded or downed comrades while getting them to cover and back into fighting form. Add to that the new "shoot me" yellow of logi ships and suits and things have just gotten even more dicey (which is still true even ignoring the brokenly OP TAR). A Logi can't do anything for the squad if that Logi is dead, the repair bonus helps keep a Logi alive but doesn't give the ability to soak sustained damage that a Heavy possesses. The current bonus to the self repper mod is both the most role/tactically valuable for the Amarr Logi, I searched very extensively prior to spec'ing that the bonus was to self repping not the repair tool. As it stands the Amarr racial skill is an asset on the field which helps mitigate my greatest challenge changed to a repair tool buff it becomes something I wouldn't spec into until after hitting full proto on all my fits and every other Logi suit. I vehemently oppose the idea of that as a change. 0.02 ISK Cross
After a previous comment I responded to, I decided to take away the Gal assault bonus and replace it with another, so I will probably give back the racial Amarr logi bonus that we have now in Uprising. I hope the same old same old is ok instead of a new shiny thought-up idea?
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1497
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:54:00 -
[102] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:bump / additional consideration The Cal Logi suit bonus type shouldn't be changed (having some survivability is most certainly in line with being a hot zone medic) the Cal Logi suit bonus amount on the other hand is another matter. I am still unconvinced that it's actually out of line with the Assault suits but it certainly looks to over-preform the rest of the Logi line. As to the Assault class bonus, upon reflection doing something to vicariously increase the dps output rather than directly increasing the raw damage seems like a better fit. Having the net effect of giving the Assault suits more 'gank' is good and I still fully support that but we've already seen CCP remove the Chrome sharpshooter skill because such a base level bonus was braking balance by pushing weapons outside of their intended battlefield roles, a raw damage bonus could very well do the same. Adding extra reload is likely the best option but the amount would have to be sufficient to provide a worthwhile increase to the balance of outgoing dps. This keeps the Assault line from breaking balance on weapons while increasing their ability to make any (non-heavy) weapon preform better than the other classes can manage with the same gun. Further considerations as they come (and again +1 to this thread, good show ) Cross
Although I think this is a good point, I don't think a damage bonus would break the game in any way similar to how SS skill did. Everyone would still be able to engage everyone within the same sphere, some would just be better at it than others. Plus, the heavy DR would be a good counter-measure to those that could put out higher DPS.
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1497
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:00:00 -
[103] - Quote
J Falcs wrote:If I had to choose how my logi would function, it would be as follows:
1. Equipment Bonus I think each logi suit should have a plus to an individual type of equipment (similar to how EVE e-war ships specialize in something specific).
Of course, there is some equipment that is more universally used than others (nanohives and nanite injectors come to mind), but this is where I hope CCP lowers SP requirements a tad so that the idea of speccing into a second logi suit is not unheard of or insane. So, as of right now, we have 4 equipments (I will not consider prox and RE for this although if I had to assign one to it, considering Minnie's revolutionary history, I would give it to them). So, Gallente plus to active scanner range or effectiveness, Caldari plus to nanohive nanites (not +10%, but +5%), Amarr plus to repair tool, Minmatar plus to nanite range (allowing a minnie logi to rez someone from a bit further out)
2. Flat Bonus I think the bonus to all logi suits should be -5% fitting requirements to all equipment. Conversely, slightly raise the fitting requirements on the equipment. This would also allow some assault or scout suits to carry more than one equipment (if CCP decides they want assaults with two equip slots), but to do so would hamper fitting in some way.]
3. Logi Buffer Tank This will probably drive people nuts, but I'll suggest it anyway. No logi suit should have any type of damage increase or direct combat effectiveness boosted, i.e., range, damage, cooldown, etc. Also (here we go), no logi suit should have any type of additional tanking ability, i.e., no active tanking bonus, no passive bonus, etc. Instead, logi should have a buff of base EHP. Caldari should have the most shields, Amarr should have the most overall and somewhat equal on shields and armor, Gallente should have the most armor, and Minmatar should have the least EHP but incresaed speed/strafe goes with the "speed tanking" principle.
I want the focus of the suit to be the equipment. Allow modules to be what they are, a way of customizing each logi suit, but at the same time, making NOT using equipment a waste of logi suit effectiveness.
4. Repair Bonus Removal No suit should have an innate armor repair bonus (hence my suggestion to remove them). Armor repairers (local or third-party) should be the only means of armor repair. A well-coordinated squad will not waste a low slot on 1 or 2 HP slow gain. Rather, they will have a repping logi with them to take care of topping off for further engagements.
5. Personal Thoughts and Expectations These are my personal thoughts on my logi suit choice. I chose Minmatar because I like the idea of fast hacking and a little extra speed. But, I regret my decision. First, my speed is not so great that it allows me to move around all that efficiently, and second, more often than not, I'm too busy rezzing healing then to be the hacker once we overtake a point. I find myself using the suit more for logi then point blitzing.
With my suggested changes, I would still be somewhat combat capable, but not as much as the assault or heavy which should have a direct combat bonus in my opinion.
Since I am no expert on assault, scout, or heavy, I'll let others choose this. But I do know what I want and expect from a logi, and I have not received that in Uprising. I want to be better with equipment than those around me. I will say, I always envisioned logi to have the second most EHP off the base suit stats (behind heavy of course) and the assault suits to be the active tankers (although why a gallente and amarr assault suits have a bonus to shield recharge is beyond me).
1. Unfortunately, due to different roles of different logi's, a specific equipment bonus to each is rather difficult. The Amarr logi is, after all, half combat and should be given a bonus suitable to that fact, and the Minmatar's hacking bonus and natural high speed make it perfect for quick spawn-point immobilization when a squad gets on-scene to an area, even though that action involved no equipment, it was still a clear logistics role.
2. The repair bonus is, despite the fact I don't wholeheartedly agree with it, actually a pretty good bonus as it stands. Since the logi cannot repair himself, he needs a personal dropsuit rep to keep him healthy.
3. Like I said before, the repair bonus is necessary, but also the Amarr logi is half combat and should break the pattern of support-based bonuses, so much will remain the same.
4. Refer to 2 |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1497
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:03:00 -
[104] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:I don't like the stats for minmatar scout - that melee/ nova bonus is useless. Sure some ppl are enjoying using nova knife because it's more useful than before but it's still an hugely underpowered weapon, don't even want to talk about melee. +10% bonus to radius for gallente scout offers a much more palpable advantage. To make it fair, give minmatar scout +5% per level boost to side arm weapons period - don't limit it to the nova knife.
Otherwise, an excellent post.
I think that a 5% bonus to all sidearm damage is rather extreme, especially when you consider the high damage of the Scambler Pistol. I actually think the Minmatar Scout is working as intended since it is by far the fastest of all the suits and is subsequently the best at getting up close and personal and getting out before anyone even noticed, excluding the guy that got knifed in the face. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1497
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:46:00 -
[105] - Quote
bumped for edits |
Disturbingly Bored
Universal Allies Inc.
222
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Posted - 2013.05.14 00:47:00 -
[106] - Quote
LogiBro for president. Nice bonuses.
I wonder what office BS keeps developers from implementing bonuses that logically fit the role and race of a given suit?
I can only imagine that bonuses started off something like this, then get fudged with to hell. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
426
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:45:00 -
[107] - Quote
Bump |
Nstomper
The Sangheli
402
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:57:00 -
[108] - Quote
Forget racial bonuses we need more racial weapons , gear , vehicles |
fred orpaul
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
280
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:07:00 -
[109] - Quote
great idea current bonuses are ****** mode, although if they fix them later as new racial suits and weapons are release I'm ok with that. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
426
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:11:00 -
[110] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Cat Merc wrote:I think the assault damage bonus should be changed to 15%. So logis who want to have the same damage output, need to use two slots. Due to the flak I have received so far regarding the much smaller 10% bonus, I think this idea is out the window. Don't worry, Cat Merc just had too much cat nip today. |
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1509
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:25:00 -
[111] - Quote
Nstomper wrote:Forget racial bonuses we need more racial weapons , gear , vehicles
I think we need both. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1509
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:30:00 -
[112] - Quote
I think I'm finally satisfied with these bonuses. Anyone have any objections now, or have we finally reached the sweet point? |
Another Heavy SOB
TRUE TEA BAGGERS Orion Empire
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:38:00 -
[113] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:I think I'm finally satisfied with these bonuses. Anyone have any objections now, or have we finally reached the sweet point?
Not that my opinion matters, but I like it. Makes much more sense then what we have now, makes sense and sounds well balanced. I'd vote for it.
Maybe point this thread out to the CPM's to get CCP's take on the proposed changes? |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1510
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:43:00 -
[114] - Quote
Another Heavy SOB wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I think I'm finally satisfied with these bonuses. Anyone have any objections now, or have we finally reached the sweet point? Not that my opinion matters, but I like it. Makes much more sense then what we have now, it's well thought out and sounds well balanced. I'd vote for it. Maybe point this thread out to the CPM's to get CCP's take on the proposed changes?
Nova Knife mentioned he was watching this thread, I can only hope that a Dev has bothered to take a glance. |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
117
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:42:00 -
[115] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote: So, just to get this straight, you think we should completely remove class bonuses and give two racial bonuses per suit? Personally, I wasn't looking to re-write the entire passive bonus system, as I don't see any huge errors with the current system, even if it is a little iffy lore-wise.
It's not so much that I want a complete re-write, it just appears that the class bonus doesn't really work like a class bonus as you need to train it each time for each race. It's more like a race bonus that is coincidentally the same, but sucks because right now it suits some races better than others.
Logi Bro wrote: To the +1% armor repair for logi's, I actually don't see how this would help the low-armor logi's more than the high armor, seeing as it would actually give a larger bonus to Min, Amarr, and Gal then they currently have, and give even less to the Cal than current.
I was less clear about that than I should have been. It's not intended to help low armor logis. In fact it's intended to slightly buff high armor logis so that the time to rep their suit's base armor is the same across races. I feel I should emphasize I'm talking about a % of base armor so a Gallente logi still wouldn't passively rep all armor as fast as a shield tank.
Tbh, I'd forgotten that the Caldari logi's armor went under 100 which means it would lose rep (at level 5 you'd get .5 hp per second less). Chalk this up to an assault player sticking his nose into logi business. It's just that at level 5 the Caldari logi repairs its base armor in 18 seconds while a Gallente logi needs 36. With a percentage in place it's 20 seconds for base and then whatever you need for armor/shield modules. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
204
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:44:00 -
[116] - Quote
Many good comment +1 to the post.
I would have to say that I resonate with Cross Atu's statements on the roles and bonuses to the logi as a class and the racial variants. Mobility and Survivability is what serves the class best. Thus the Caldari bonus is completely in line with the logi class and serves its role quite well. Thus, I take the stance that it is certainly the Assault bonuses and racial bonuses that are lacking enough potency to draw the slayers to the slayer class.
Logi's keep to the code, Logissaults do not. But if a character wishes for that kind of versatility it can certainly be found with a logi than with any other class. Next we might hear nerf again when the cloaking mods come out and a logi decides to be a cloaked hacker and compete with the scouts... THE AUDACITY! - we will see what the future holds.
Great thread. Keep looking forward. |
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:05:00 -
[117] - Quote
I would also change slot layouts entirely. logis they are not meant to be flexible, they are meant to be durable and carry around equipment to provide logistic. flexibility was originally meant to be the assaults domain.
I would give logis low amount of slots and assaults hi amount of slots (basically the other way around it currently is), change the PG/CPU accordingly and increase their base HP. that way they do what they are supposed to be, carry around equipment and be tough as nails. they would be still able to fit a few modules but would not be able to stack them excessively. the assault on the other hand would be able customize the fit to their needs (either alot of tank mods or damage mods or a mix of both). |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1517
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:25:00 -
[118] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:I would also change slot layouts entirely. logis they are not meant to be flexible, they are meant to be durable and carry around equipment to provide logistic. flexibility was originally meant to be the assaults domain.
I would give logis low amount of slots and assaults hi amount of slots (basically the other way around it currently is), change the PG/CPU accordingly and increase their base HP. that way they do what they are supposed to be, carry around equipment and be tough as nails. they would be still able to fit a few modules but would not be able to stack them excessively. the assault on the other hand would be able customize the fit to their needs (either alot of tank mods or damage mods or a mix of both).
My basic idea behind this thread is the possibility that we might be able to achieve better balance without the need to make drastic changes like the one you mentioned. I can only keep my fingers crossed that CCP has considered these ideas. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1520
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 17:31:00 -
[119] - Quote
bump |
Fox Gaden
DUST University Ivy League
322
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 17:45:00 -
[120] - Quote
If the Amarr Heavy Bonus is 2% dropsuit shield and armour increase per level, what will the other racial Heavy Bonuses be?
Minmatar: Speed? Gallente: Range? Caldari: Damage? |
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1536
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:57:00 -
[121] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:If the Amarr Heavy Bonus is 2% dropsuit shield and armour increase per level, what will the other racial Heavy Bonuses be?
Minmatar: Speed? Gallente: Damage? Caldari: Range?
I'd probably give them something along the lines of: Gallente Heavy Dropsuit- 3% armor plate health bonus increase per level Caldari Heavy Dropsuit- 3% shield extender increase per level Minmatar Heavy Dropsuit- 5% increase to heavy weapon RoF per level |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1000
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 08:53:00 -
[122] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:If the Amarr Heavy Bonus is 2% dropsuit shield and armour increase per level, what will the other racial Heavy Bonuses be?
Minmatar: Speed? Gallente: Damage? Caldari: Range? I'd probably give them something along the lines of: Gallente Heavy Dropsuit- 3% armor plate health bonus increase per level Caldari Heavy Dropsuit- 3% shield extender increase per level Minmatar Heavy Dropsuit- 5% increase to heavy weapon RoF per level I'd probably give the Gallente a +3% armor repair module efficiency per level and maybe a -2% movement penalty reduction when equipping armor. Gallente are supposed to be geared for fast armor regen and Minmatar heavy should probably be the fastest...unless there's a heavy rocket launcher in which case forget everything I just said. |
Charlotte O'Dell
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
369
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 06:23:00 -
[123] - Quote
So, pretty much, this is an awesome idea. take note, ccp. |
xSir Campsalotx
Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 06:59:00 -
[124] - Quote
+1 Like the idea for the heavies and assaults especially. |
Doyle Reese
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:07:00 -
[125] - Quote
Scouts could use a reduction to the Armor Penalty too!! |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:09:00 -
[126] - Quote
Doyle Reese wrote:Scouts could use a reduction to the Armor Penalty too!! Ferroscale plates should resolve that issue... |
Doyle Reese
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:11:00 -
[127] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:Doyle Reese wrote:Scouts could use a reduction to the Armor Penalty too!! Ferroscale plates should resolve that issue...
aren't Ferroscale Plates for vehicles only? That's what it seemed judging from the way CCP worded it during "Advancing the Core" |
Syther Shadows
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
80
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:32:00 -
[128] - Quote
im ok just to sit and wait for ccp to deal with this as they see fit and not force ideas on them
these are GOOD ideas just are they balanced ?
statically ? (also i would swap the damage bonus for the Armour and shield bonus on the heavy) the heavy's roll is not damage
But the heavy could benefit from stuff like heavy weapon reload speed over damage (they are not a dps roll and that would eliminate all other forms of av from being viable compared to proto forge heavy)
|
Harkon Vysarii
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
344
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:46:00 -
[129] - Quote
Why did this thread never get a Dev look in. It is one of the few on this forum that seemed to be constructive as well as well thought out.... |
Imp Smash
On The Brink CRONOS.
111
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 10:14:00 -
[130] - Quote
I like the idea of this thread. I like how people are offering constructive ideas and not complaining at eachother. You have earned a like and more OP.
I'd like to add - for logis - Caldari are the shield group. How about the Caldari logi bonus be a bonus to shield repair guns. Shield transportation I believe it is called even if it isn't in game yet.
From there the Gallente could get the armor repair bonus. Although honestly it makes sense to me if the Amarr retain it is they (all their suits) survive off of having higher base buffer hp. If you moved the armor repair to Gallente I'd recommend reload for Amarr logis. Amarr logis are supposed to be a bit more combat-like as they sacrifice equipment for more guns. |
|
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 20:08:00 -
[131] - Quote
Minmatar Scout - In addition to current melee bonus: +2% Sprint Speed per level |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1603
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 23:47:00 -
[132] - Quote
bumped for Uprising 1.2 |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1677
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 04:06:00 -
[133] - Quote
General Discussing is being really slow right now, so.....bump. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
706
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 04:11:00 -
[134] - Quote
I didn't read all seven pages... but please don't kill logis by removing the EHP bonus... esp if assault gets 10% damage.
All logis should have an EHP bonus.
Logi Bonus: 5% CPU/PG reduction per level Caldari: 5% Shield extenders Gallente: 5% armor plating amarr: 3%/3% shield/armor minmatar: 2%/2% shield/armor
Something like the above here would make much more sense.. logis are slow and inherently weaker... give them the option to go all out hp, since we will be sacrificing 10% damage + combat oriented bonuses anyways.
If we need to, we can just straight put passive regen on certain logi suits.
Like 2HP/s - Caldari, 3HP/s - Minmatar 4HP/s - Amarr 5HP/s - Gallente
Scout Dropsuit Bonus would make much more sense if it was something like 3% EWAR and Biotics module efficacy or 5% of one or the other. Profile dampening is meh... if they need it.. just give them a lower base profile. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1677
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 04:18:00 -
[135] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:I didn't read all seven pages... but please don't kill logis by removing the EHP bonus... esp if assault gets 10% damage.
All logis should have an EHP bonus.
Logi Bonus: 5% CPU/PG reduction per level Caldari: 5% Shield extenders Gallente: 5% armor plating amarr: 3%/3% shield/armor minmatar: 2%/2% shield/armor
Something like the above here would make much more sense.. logis are slow and inherently weaker... give them the option to go all out hp, since we will be sacrificing 10% damage + combat oriented bonuses anyways.
....What...?
Well, allow me to start by saying I am not removing EHP bonuses from logi's because logi's don't have any EHP bonuses to begin with, with the exception of the Caldari logi, which has long been decided to be OP.
Secondly, logi's are not sacrificing 10% damage, assault suits would be gaining 10% damage, and logi's would remain the same.
Third, I have had this discussion with another person before, and I have based these bonuses on the primary role of the suits, and while survival is important on the logistics dropsuit, it is not the primary role, support is, so the logistics suits are all gaining support bonuses, with the exception of the Amarr, which is a wildcard, so it gets a wildcard bonus. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
707
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 05:16:00 -
[136] - Quote
all im gonna say is... if they give cal logis that worthless nanohive bonus, then they better offer a respec.
Cal Logi is not OP... use it in PC and you'll find it barely holds it own.
If anything the other logi classes are UP.
Or if you insist we recieve worthless equipment bonuses, then we need at least equal base hp to assault suits.
Otherwise logis are just free WPs to assaults.
and I mean sacrifice 10% damage by going logi instead of assault. Opportunity cost.. etc etc. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1678
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 05:30:00 -
[137] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:all im gonna say is... if they give cal logis that worthless nanohive bonus, then they better offer a respec.
Cal Logi is not OP... use it in PC and you'll find it barely holds it own.
If anything the other logi classes are UP.
Or if you insist we recieve worthless equipment bonuses, then we need at least equal base hp to assault suits.
Otherwise logis are just free WPs to assaults.
All I will reply is this: If people don't want the Caldari Logi anymore because a single percentage changed, then the only reason they chose that class was because of that specific percentage. Caldari Logi isn't OP, you're right, but it DOES have too much utility. (Look at me, been playing too much SMITE and now I am talking in MOBA terms) By utility I mean usage, the amount of different things it can do, and it is not supposed to be able to replace assaults effectively, support team-mates effectively, and replace heavies effectively all at once, it is just too much utility.
You obviously play the Cal logi and have never played any other race's logistics class, because if you did you would realize a tank bonus is unnecessary to survive, all other logi's have the exact bonuses that I recommended in my OP, because they were fine as they were, being support bonuses. The Cal logi wont suddenly become fodder without its shield extender bonus, every other logi has survived perfectly fine without it, so the Cal can too.
To your edits: The assault suit gets a bonus to killing. If you want to be best at killing, be an assault, since the logistics suit does not exist for the sole purpose of killing. Since the assault exists for the sole purpose of killing, it should excel at it more than other classes. It's a role bonus, so to speak.
And....I meant it as it was written, the Sentinel suits should get a 2% bonus to their base shields and base armor, not to modules that increase them. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
62
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 06:19:00 -
[138] - Quote
Scout: 5% scan profile reduction per level (Ewar and Cloaking should also be tied to Scan profile)
Now for the rest of them, CCP has officially announced that Scouts are severely declining in uprising and I think much of it could be closed up through racials (though we still need a second equipment slot)
Minmatar: 5% Explosion Radius and Rate of Fire Gallante:10% Scanner Range (passive and active) so same Caldari: 10% EWAR Strength per Level Amarr: 15% to Light Armor Plate HP (ferroscale and Reactive)
CQC Scouts Minmatar: Glass Cannon (which fulfills the scout assault bridge it was meant to be) Gallante: Flanker (sets up and prepares for ambushes, also catches enemy ambushes)
Slower/Range Scouts Caldari: Negative Logi (functions as the enemy team divider) Amarr: Harasser (not fast or strong enough to engage other suits but healthy enough to take a hit and retreat into cover) |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
201
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 07:01:00 -
[139] - Quote
Overall very nice suggestions. |
XANDER KAG
Red STar. EoN.
135
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 07:18:00 -
[140] - Quote
This reads very well, I hope a dev takes a look because this all seems well thought out. Thank you for using logic on the forums rather than ranting. |
|
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French CRONOS.
1758
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 07:59:00 -
[141] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:I decided to revive this thread for the sake of edits due to the added Commando suit, ferroscale and reactive armor plates, and also because lolwhynot.
Since I get the feeling that most people write and read in General Discussion exclusively, I am copying and pasting this from Feedback/Requests.
Racial bonuses create imbalances in the game. They seem completely and utterly arbitrary, and the game's overall balance suffers for it. We all know the most glaring and over-discussed racial bonus, the Caldari logi shield extender buff, but what about the heavy's "weapon feedback damage reduction?" What about the shield recharge rate increase to all the assault suits, even though it mostly benefits Amarr and Caldari? If any of these bonuses have any real reason behind them, may a Dev feel free to come in and tell me about it, but otherwise, I suggest a complete re-work of racial bonuses, and class bonuses.
Assault Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level Caldari Assault Bonus- 5% shield recharge rate increase per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 10% basic armor plate movement penalty reduction per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- 5% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level
Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- Keep +1 armor repair per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module and reactive plate repair rate increase per level
Heavy Heavy Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage received reduction per level Amarr Sentinel Bonus- 2% dropsuit shield and armor increase per level Amarr Commando Bonus- 5% decrease in light weapon CPU and PG use per level
Scout Scout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level
You can see, excluding scouts, the bonuses have been changed to fit the role of the suit. The assault dropsuit's role has been strengthened for long life and general combat, the logistics dropsuit's role has been strengthened to triage and miscellaneous activities, and the heavy dropsuit's role has been strengthened to survivability beyond the assault dropsuit. Scouts still retain their recon and intelligence roles, and they are all spec'd to do what they are meant to do. Most importantly, there were no dropsuit base stat nerfs, which seems to be most people's ideas to fix imbalances.
Feel free to make your own amendments, and comment.
EDITS: Deleted crowded edit section to start over if I receive more suggestions.
Only a few things i'd changed in your suggestion to be honest :
Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level Gallente Logistics Bonus- +1 armor repair rate per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module and reactive plate repair rate increase per level
Very important that the specialization bonus ties into the support role and not into survivability. Effect is the same, one slot saved as you wont need a CPU or PG extender.
Heavy Sentinel Specialization Bonus- Damage reduction is pretty tricky atm according to Devs. I'd go with a +5% bonus to hp of base shield and armor per level. Amarr Sentinel Bonus- Should be tied to the efficiency of an Amarr Heavy weapon. Could be 1% damage buff to heavy weapons in the meantime.
Commando specialization bonus : I'd go with a 3% increase to sprint, stamina and stamina recovery per level. Amarr Commando Bonus- 5% decrease in light weapon CPU and PG use per level
Assault Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level (may be a bit too much, even 1% is enough to send a signal ) Caldari Assault Bonus- 5% shield recharge rate increase per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 10% basic armor plate movement penalty reduction per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- 5% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level
rest would be ok for me.
Scout Scout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level
will leave scout judge that part.
So mostly, those bonuses fits what i'd suggest myself. |
True Adamance
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
415
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 08:03:00 -
[142] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I decided to revive this thread for the sake of edits due to the added Commando suit, ferroscale and reactive armor plates, and also because lolwhynot.
Since I get the feeling that most people write and read in General Discussion exclusively, I am copying and pasting this from Feedback/Requests.
Racial bonuses create imbalances in the game. They seem completely and utterly arbitrary, and the game's overall balance suffers for it. We all know the most glaring and over-discussed racial bonus, the Caldari logi shield extender buff, but what about the heavy's "weapon feedback damage reduction?" What about the shield recharge rate increase to all the assault suits, even though it mostly benefits Amarr and Caldari? If any of these bonuses have any real reason behind them, may a Dev feel free to come in and tell me about it, but otherwise, I suggest a complete re-work of racial bonuses, and class bonuses.
Assault Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level Caldari Assault Bonus- 5% shield recharge rate increase per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 10% basic armor plate movement penalty reduction per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- 5% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level
Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- Keep +1 armor repair per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module and reactive plate repair rate increase per level
Heavy Heavy Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage received reduction per level Amarr Sentinel Bonus- 2% dropsuit shield and armor increase per level Amarr Commando Bonus- 5% decrease in light weapon CPU and PG use per level
Scout Scout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level
You can see, excluding scouts, the bonuses have been changed to fit the role of the suit. The assault dropsuit's role has been strengthened for long life and general combat, the logistics dropsuit's role has been strengthened to triage and miscellaneous activities, and the heavy dropsuit's role has been strengthened to survivability beyond the assault dropsuit. Scouts still retain their recon and intelligence roles, and they are all spec'd to do what they are meant to do. Most importantly, there were no dropsuit base stat nerfs, which seems to be most people's ideas to fix imbalances.
Feel free to make your own amendments, and comment.
EDITS: Deleted crowded edit section to start over if I receive more suggestions. Only a few things i'd changed in your suggestion to be honest : LogisticsLogistics Dropsuit Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level Gallente Logistics Bonus- +1 armor repair rate per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module and reactive plate repair rate increase per level Very important that the specialization bonus ties into the support role and not into survivability. Effect is the same, one slot saved as you wont need a CPU or PG extender. HeavySentinel Specialization Bonus- Damage reduction is pretty tricky atm according to Devs. I'd go with a +5% bonus to hp of base shield and armor per level. Amarr Sentinel Bonus- Should be tied to the efficiency of an Amarr Heavy weapon. Could be 1% damage buff to heavy weapons in the meantime. Commando specialization bonus : I'd go with a 3% increase to sprint, stamina and stamina recovery per level. Amarr Commando Bonus- 5% decrease in light weapon CPU and PG use per level AssaultAssault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level (may be a bit too much, even 1% is enough to send a signal )Caldari Assault Bonus- 5% shield recharge rate increase per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 10% basic armor plate movement penalty reduction per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- 5% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level rest would be ok for me. ScoutScout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level will leave scout judge that part. So mostly, those bonuses fits what i'd suggest myself. Please take them to CCP good sir and I will revere you as a God....well sort of you see being Amarrian by nature means that that would be heresy....and Im not Sani Sabik...
But you get my meaning .... Do it CPM Cazaderon and all of Dust shall thank you for it....except for the cal logi douche bags..... |
hackerzilla
Defenders of the Helghast Dream
42
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 08:18:00 -
[143] - Quote
I understand people think that Logi Cladari is OP but 10% nanite ussuage per level sucks like seriously thats nerfing it to hell |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
725
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 16:59:00 -
[144] - Quote
hackerzilla wrote:I understand people think that Logi Cladari is OP but 10% nanite ussuage per level sucks like seriously thats nerfing it to hell
At least someone understands.
Do you have proto nanohives logi bro? You must... at which point you would have to understand there is never a need for a nanohive bonus, its pretty much worthless.
Some people want to support their team while still actually having the ability to be on the front line. Cal logi is perfect for what it does.
It doesn't replace a real heavy in the least. It gets roflstomped by real assaults already. It has just enough utility to actually be viable in PC.
If anything, the other logi classes are kind of a joke atm.
Like I said.. if you wanna take away the logi survivabiltiy bonus, then offer a respec. Taking away 9 weeks of SP because you felt like absolutely destroying a specific playstyle is downright insulting.
I ran min logi with my first respec and I hated it... the suit was a complete POS. Cal logi has just enough hp bonus to compensate for its poor movement and lower base hp.
If these are the kind of bonuses they want to put in the game, then please let me respec into assault. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1693
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 17:40:00 -
[145] - Quote
Alright, I will take the suggested ideas and remake the list. |
Gorra Snell
BetaMax. CRONOS.
28
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 17:51:00 -
[146] - Quote
Excellent work. They should have Logi Bro (along with the this threads' participants) design all the unreleased suit bonuses |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
987
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 17:54:00 -
[147] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:hackerzilla wrote:I understand people think that Logi Cladari is OP but 10% nanite ussuage per level sucks like seriously thats nerfing it to hell At least someone understands. Do you have proto nanohives logi bro? You must... at which point you would have to understand there is never a need for a nanohive bonus, its pretty much worthless. Some people want to support their team while still actually having the ability to be on the front line. Cal logi is perfect for what it does. It doesn't replace a real heavy in the least. It gets roflstomped by real assaults already. It has just enough utility to actually be viable in PC. If anything, the other logi classes are kind of a joke atm. Like I said.. if you wanna take away the logi survivabiltiy bonus, then offer a respec. Taking away 9 weeks of SP because you felt like absolutely destroying a specific playstyle is downright insulting. I ran min logi with my first respec and I hated it... the suit was a complete POS. Cal logi has just enough hp bonus to compensate for its poor movement and lower base hp. If these are the kind of bonuses they want to put in the game, then please let me respec into assault.
Plenty of weapons have been altered without a respec, there shouldn't be a difference for an overpowered suit. |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. League of Infamy
623
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:09:00 -
[148] - Quote
Not sure why you guys are trying to adjust the bonuses all around and still keep the minmatar assault with the worst bonus in the game.
TBH to stay true to the minmatar assault specialty it should have a 5% bonus to stamina/stamina recovery per lvl. That would be a bonus that the suit could actually use. A bonus to mag size for sidearms is perhaps one of the most worthless bonuses in the game. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
754
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:12:00 -
[149] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:hackerzilla wrote:I understand people think that Logi Cladari is OP but 10% nanite ussuage per level sucks like seriously thats nerfing it to hell At least someone understands. Do you have proto nanohives logi bro? You must... at which point you would have to understand there is never a need for a nanohive bonus, its pretty much worthless. Some people want to support their team while still actually having the ability to be on the front line. Cal logi is perfect for what it does. It doesn't replace a real heavy in the least. It gets roflstomped by real assaults already. It has just enough utility to actually be viable in PC. If anything, the other logi classes are kind of a joke atm. Like I said.. if you wanna take away the logi survivabiltiy bonus, then offer a respec. Taking away 9 weeks of SP because you felt like absolutely destroying a specific playstyle is downright insulting. I ran min logi with my first respec and I hated it... the suit was a complete POS. Cal logi has just enough hp bonus to compensate for its poor movement and lower base hp. If these are the kind of bonuses they want to put in the game, then please let me respec into assault. Plenty of weapons have been altered without a respec, there shouldn't be a difference for an overpowered suit.
the suit isnt overpowered at all, other logi classes just need comparable bonuses. otherwise its just nerfing the whole logi line into the ground. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1697
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:12:00 -
[150] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote:Not sure why you guys are trying to adjust the bonuses all around and still keep the minmatar assault with the worst bonus in the game.
TBH to stay true to the minmatar assault specialty it should have a 5% bonus to stamina/stamina recovery per lvl. That would be a bonus that the suit could actually use. A bonus to mag size for sidearms is perhaps one of the most worthless bonuses in the game.
I actually did change the Minmatar bonus, it is currently 5% sidearm clip size, so I changed it to 5% increase to any handheld weapon clip size. |
|
Muud Kipz
Elevated Technologies
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:19:00 -
[151] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote: Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- *********************************************************************************************************** Gallente Logistics Bonus- +1 armor reapir per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module and reactive plate repair rate increase per level
Making +1 rep the Gallente bonus really makes the Amarr bonus useless. Well, not useless, but blatantly UP. For the Amarr bonus to be equal to the Gallente one, you'd need 4x complex reppers. Anything less and it's just a straight up worse bonus, and there's only 3 low slots. Amarr logis already gets f--ked with the sidearm slot (ostensibly the Amarr logi's differentiating factor) and 3rd equipment slot not being available until proto level, don't add this too. |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. League of Infamy
623
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:24:00 -
[152] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Not sure why you guys are trying to adjust the bonuses all around and still keep the minmatar assault with the worst bonus in the game.
TBH to stay true to the minmatar assault specialty it should have a 5% bonus to stamina/stamina recovery per lvl. That would be a bonus that the suit could actually use. A bonus to mag size for sidearms is perhaps one of the most worthless bonuses in the game. I actually did change the Minmatar bonus, it is currently 5% sidearm clip size, so I changed it to 5% increase to any handheld weapon clip size.
Oh LOL I didnt see that. Probably because its so similar......
That would make that bonus really good........perhaps better than any of the other bonuses so it might be too strong of a bonus actually then. Not that I would complain mind you but for balancing purposes an extra 25% clip to all handheld weaponry means assault scrambler rifles with 90 rounds in a single Mag. Personally I think the stamina bonus would be better and more inline with the minmatar racial philosophy. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1698
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:25:00 -
[153] - Quote
Muud Kipz wrote:Logi Bro wrote: Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- *********************************************************************************************************** Gallente Logistics Bonus- +1 armor reapir per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module and reactive plate repair rate increase per level
Making +1 rep the Gallente bonus really makes the Amarr bonus useless. Well, not useless, but blatantly UP. For the Amarr bonus to be equal to the Gallente one, you'd need 4x complex reppers. Anything less and it's just a straight up worse bonus, and there's only 3 low slots. Amarr logis already gets f--ked with the sidearm slot (ostensibly the Amarr logi's differentiating factor) and 3rd equipment slot not being available until proto level, don't add this too.
I didn't notice that, I reverted it to as it was before. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1698
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:30:00 -
[154] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Not sure why you guys are trying to adjust the bonuses all around and still keep the minmatar assault with the worst bonus in the game.
TBH to stay true to the minmatar assault specialty it should have a 5% bonus to stamina/stamina recovery per lvl. That would be a bonus that the suit could actually use. A bonus to mag size for sidearms is perhaps one of the most worthless bonuses in the game. I actually did change the Minmatar bonus, it is currently 5% sidearm clip size, so I changed it to 5% increase to any handheld weapon clip size. Oh LOL I didnt see that. Probably because its so similar...... That would make that bonus really good........perhaps better than any of the other bonuses so it might be too strong of a bonus actually then. Not that I would complain mind you but for balancing purposes an extra 25% clip to all handheld weaponry means assault scrambler rifles with 90 rounds in a single Mag. Personally I think the stamina bonus would be better and more inline with the minmatar racial philosophy.
The thing is that the Amarr Commando already receives a stamina/stamina regen, maybe if I dial it down to 3% per level it would be less overpowering? |
Muud Kipz
Elevated Technologies
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:36:00 -
[155] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:hackerzilla wrote:I understand people think that Logi Cladari is OP but 10% nanite ussuage per level sucks like seriously thats nerfing it to hell At least someone understands. Do you have proto nanohives logi bro? You must... at which point you would have to understand there is never a need for a nanohive bonus, its pretty much worthless. Some people want to support their team while still actually having the ability to be on the front line. Cal logi is perfect for what it does. It doesn't replace a real heavy in the least. It gets roflstomped by real assaults already. It has just enough utility to actually be viable in PC. If anything, the other logi classes are kind of a joke atm. Like I said.. if you wanna take away the logi survivabiltiy bonus, then offer a respec. Taking away 9 weeks of SP because you felt like absolutely destroying a specific playstyle is downright insulting. I ran min logi with my first respec and I hated it... the suit was a complete POS. Cal logi has just enough hp bonus to compensate for its poor movement and lower base hp. If these are the kind of bonuses they want to put in the game, then please let me respec into assault. Plenty of weapons have been altered without a respec, there shouldn't be a difference for an overpowered suit. the suit isnt overpowered at all, other logi classes just need comparable bonuses. otherwise its just nerfing the whole logi line into the ground.
Also, yes, the CaLogi suit IS overpowered. Math numbers wise, it is, even just in terms of base stats without specialization bonuses. Compare it to the Amarr proto logi- the CaLogi suit loses the sidearm slot and 30 total base HP (though I would argue that 180/90 base is better than 120/180) and gains... hmm... almost 5% faster move speed, 18 PG, 2 high slots and 1 low slot. That's ignoring the massive disparity in their bonuses, which doesn't need discussion here.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
776
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:46:00 -
[156] - Quote
Muud Kipz wrote:Also, yes, the CaLogi suit IS overpowered. Math numbers wise, it is, even just in terms of base stats without specialization bonuses. Compare it to the Amarr proto logi- the CaLogi suit loses the sidearm slot and 30 total base HP (though I would argue that 180/90 base is better than 120/180) and gains... hmm... almost 5% faster move speed, 18 PG, -2 seconds of shield recharge delay, 2 high slots and 1 low slot. That's ignoring the massive disparity in their bonuses, which doesn't need discussion here.
Amarr logi is underpowered because it lacks a combat relevant racial bonus and comparable CPU/PG to all of the other logistics classes.
Doesn't mean the Cal Logi is OP, it just means its the only logi that can actually hold its own in combat.
And these changes propose adding 10% more damage to assaults (which I think is great idea). How do you think the logi is going to hold up then without EHP racial modifications?
In any sort of competitive play... it wont. Not at all. It'll be that poor sucker that mistakenly spec'd into a class cause he thought he could support the team. forgetting that anything but drop uplinks and the occasional triage nanohive is irrelevant in PC.
With Logi Bros proposed changes, the logi will literally have no place in PC, and corps will be forced to take them because some of their core players will have mistakenly spec'd into that suit and have no way of climbing out.
meanwhile an assault suit with proto uplinks will do the same job that logi's are sort of meant for now. |
mikegunnz
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
632
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:22:00 -
[157] - Quote
I think the point Zdub, is that if you want to be a "frontline" guy that can occasionally rep or revive someone, you can be an assault with a rep tool or injector. It'll force you to make a compromise. If you choose to be logi, in theory you're choosing to be the repper and reviver, and are making a sacrifice to your "frontline" combat ability.
The Cal Logi sort of doesn't make that compromise. It's basically just as good a combat piece as any assault. (arguably better because of it's slot count and higher CPU/PG)
You're saying that the other Logi suits are UP, but the others are saying (and I agree) that the Cal Logi suit is prob OP, when you think about what the intended role of Logi class is supposed to be. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
787
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:29:00 -
[158] - Quote
mikegunnz wrote:I think the point Zdub, is that if you want to be a "frontline" guy that can occasionally rep or revive someone, you can be an assault with a rep tool or injector. It'll force you to make a compromise. If you choose to be logi, in theory you're choosing to be the repper and reviver, and are making a sacrifice to your "frontline" combat ability.
The Cal Logi sort of doesn't make that compromise. It's basically just as good a combat piece as any assault. (arguably better because of it's slot count and higher CPU/PG)
You're saying that the other Logi suits are UP, but the others are saying (and I agree) that the Cal Logi suit is prob OP, when you think about what the intended role of Logi class is supposed to be.
you obv don't play in PC.
In pubs... yeah you might be right.. but in PC cal logis get trashed by good assault players.
I can only imagine how bad it is for 'non-cal' logis.
I guess I'm just trying to keep logi players somewhat viable in PC as I'm not ready for 9 weeks of grinding to get proto assault.
Im curious though; what is the intended role of a logi?
To sit behind the front lines with a rep tool?
With these new changes logis will be severly inferior in combat. assault players will have higher base health, 10% more damage, and much higher movement speed. 1v1 with equal skills logis wont stand a chance... they'll just be free WPs. Should logis never engage in combat? is that their 'purpose'...? |
Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
151
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:49:00 -
[159] - Quote
+1 like the ideas Id do thing like this in a perfect world:
Logi: Less Powergrid and cpu and or effectivness bonus for logi equipment -Amarr: bonus to armor hp -Gallentee: bonus to armor repair for self -Caldari: bonus to shield hp -Minmatar: Bonus to shield recharging perhaps a bonus to hacking also considering it is liked by many but not defensive??
Assault: Bonus to damage of all weapons -Amarr: Split Bonus to Armor hp and energy weapon heat build up -Gallentee: Split Bonus to Armor repair and Less recoil on Plasma based weapons -Caldari: Split Bonus to Sheild hp and optimal range of magrail weapons(would allow them to operate well at long ranges) -Minmatar: Split bonuses to rate of fire and Falloff range of projectiles *Split bonuses would not be as effective as full.
Sentinel: Bonus to the Damage of all heavy weapons -Amarr: Bonus hp to armor -Gallentee: Bonus resist to armor (this would make repairs more effective on this guy than amarr) -Caldari: Bonus to sheild hp -Minmatar: Bonus to sheild resistances (i really just dont know to be honest)
Commando: Bonus to resistances of sheild and armor?(afraid i dont know enough about this class to make up good bonuses) -Amarr:Split Bonus to Energy based weapons feedback damage and optimal range -Gallentee:Split Bonus to Plasma based weapons recoil reduction and damage -Caldari:Split Bonus to Mag Rail Based weapons Optimal range and Accuracy? -Minmatar:Split Bonus to Projectile Based weapons Rate of fire and clip size? or for fun Clip size +1 per lvl and explosion radious (gernadier suit)
Scout: Split bonus Harder to detect and speed increase -Amarr: bonus dropuplink carry capacity (sorry ran out of ideas) -Gallentee: Bonus to scan resolutions and range and use of detecting equipment such as active scanner -Caldari: Bonus to equipment which would be used to disable hostile tacnet -Minmatar: Split bonus to stamina and Signature even harder to detect
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Killar-12
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
74
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 21:30:00 -
[160] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
Only a few things i'd changed in your suggestion to be honest :
Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level Gallente Logistics Bonus- +1 armor repair rate per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module and reactive plate repair rate increase per level
Very important that the specialization bonus ties into the support role and not into survivability. Effect is the same, one slot saved as you wont need a CPU or PG extender.
Heavy Sentinel Specialization Bonus- Damage reduction is pretty tricky atm according to Devs. I'd go with a +5% bonus to hp of base shield and armor per level. Amarr Sentinel Bonus- Should be tied to the efficiency of an Amarr Heavy weapon. Could be 1% damage buff to heavy weapons in the meantime.
Commando specialization bonus : I'd go with a 3% increase to sprint, stamina and stamina recovery per level. Amarr Commando Bonus- 5% decrease in light weapon CPU and PG use per level
Assault Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level (may be a bit too much, even 1% is enough to send a signal ) Caldari Assault Bonus- 5% shield recharge rate increase per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 10% basic armor plate movement penalty reduction per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- 5% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level
rest would be ok for me.
Scout Scout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level
will leave scout judge that part.
So mostly, those bonuses fits what i'd suggest myself.
Personally the nova knife boost on the Minnie Scout seems more a novelty than I'd give it the 5% hacking boost to make it like a sneaky scout and the Minnie logi a boost to shield regen instead. |
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Muud Kipz
Elevated Technologies
14
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 13:12:00 -
[161] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:mikegunnz wrote:I think the point Zdub, is that if you want to be a "frontline" guy that can occasionally rep or revive someone, you can be an assault with a rep tool or injector. It'll force you to make a compromise. If you choose to be logi, in theory you're choosing to be the repper and reviver, and are making a sacrifice to your "frontline" combat ability.
The Cal Logi sort of doesn't make that compromise. It's basically just as good a combat piece as any assault. (arguably better because of it's slot count and higher CPU/PG)
You're saying that the other Logi suits are UP, but the others are saying (and I agree) that the Cal Logi suit is prob OP, when you think about what the intended role of Logi class is supposed to be. you obv don't play in PC. In pubs... yeah you might be right.. but in PC cal logis get trashed by good assault players. I can only imagine how bad it is for 'non-cal' logis. I guess I'm just trying to keep logi players somewhat viable in PC as I'm not ready for 9 weeks of grinding to get proto assault. Im curious though; what is the intended role of a logi? To sit behind the front lines with a rep tool? With these new changes logis will be severly inferior in combat. assault players will have higher base health, 10% more damage, and much higher movement speed. 1v1 with equal skills logis wont stand a chance... they'll just be free WPs. Should logis never engage in combat? is that their 'purpose'...?
It was my understanding that logi suits are meant, game balance wise, to lose in an otherwise perfectly even 1v1 against an equivalent assault. Since they're logi suits, they shouldn't be in that 1v1 situation in the first place.
The logi should be combat capable but focused on equipment and support, squad play, etc etc etc. Lower base HP, move speed, and 10% less damage than assaults doesn't prevent a competent LogiBro from killing, especially in a proper squad. All that will get damaged by this change is FOTM Cal Logis lone wolf proto facerolling to victory with more tank than an equivalent assault/some heavy suits and the same damage as assaults.
Also, if all equipment except proto uplinks are useless in PC, perhaps that needs looking at as well.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
834
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 13:24:00 -
[162] - Quote
I guess its just time for me to roll assault then. I enjoyed being able to actually play on the frontline with my assault buddies while still providing some support via equipment. But clearly everyone wants to make sure logis get nothing but a few token kill steals in a game.
It was a good run, but c'est la vie. All I can hope is that remnant makes these changes after 1.4... so I can hopefully be close to the 2.5 mil needed to run an assault suit. Gonna be very interesting to see what people think if assaults get a 10% damage bonus, pretty sure you won't see many logis after that. |
Muud Kipz
Elevated Technologies
14
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 13:38:00 -
[163] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:I guess its just time for me to roll assault then. I enjoyed being able to actually play on the frontline with my assault buddies while still providing some support via equipment. But clearly everyone wants to make sure logis get nothing but a few token kill steals in a game.
It was a good run, but c'est la vie. All I can hope is that remnant makes these changes after 1.4... so I can hopefully be close to the 2.5 mil needed to run an assault suit. Gonna be very interesting to see what people think if assaults get a 10% damage bonus, pretty sure you won't see many logis after that.
Pffft come on, a 10% damage gap is not insurmountable, even in the average 1v1 firefight. Surely, at some point, you've killed an opponent with more than 10% of your health remaining. Skill would be the determining factor, and that's a good thing.
But for the sake of argument, let's say you're right and that 10% effectiveness gap WILL crush the logi class. That argument works just as well in reverse, except right now and not theoretically: a proto Cal assault running up against a proto Cal logi leaves the assault with no damage advantage and a significant tank disadvantage due to the Cal logi's shield bonuses and additional slots. A little bit of strafe speed on the assault's side does not sufficiently compensate for this.
It sounds to me like someone just wants to keep their FOTM. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
836
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:01:00 -
[164] - Quote
Muud Kipz wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I guess its just time for me to roll assault then. I enjoyed being able to actually play on the frontline with my assault buddies while still providing some support via equipment. But clearly everyone wants to make sure logis get nothing but a few token kill steals in a game.
It was a good run, but c'est la vie. All I can hope is that remnant makes these changes after 1.4... so I can hopefully be close to the 2.5 mil needed to run an assault suit. Gonna be very interesting to see what people think if assaults get a 10% damage bonus, pretty sure you won't see many logis after that. Pffft come on, a 10% damage gap is not insurmountable, even in the average 1v1 firefight. Surely, at some point, you've killed an opponent with more than 10% of your health remaining . Skill would be the determining factor, and that's a good thing. But for the sake of argument, let's say you're right and that 10% effectiveness gap WILL crush the logi class. That argument works just as well in reverse, except right now and not theoretically: a proto Cal assault running up against a proto Cal logi leaves the assault with no damage advantage and a significant tank disadvantage due to the Cal logi's shield bonuses and additional slots. A little bit of strafe speed on the assault's side does not sufficiently compensate for this. It sounds to me like someone just wants to keep their FOTM.
Like I said... you obviously don't play in PC. I'm going to assume this is a main posting as you're not in an NPC corp.
So.. Yeah sure I can roflstomp militia noobs all day. Pit my proto cal logi with a duvolle against a militia assault with a militia AR and its no contest.
but against a skilled assault player I can only win maybe a third of my battles? Most battles come down to running out of LW ammo, I have to reload and he swaps to sidearm and im dead. I don't think you understand what losing ~15% of my health and going against someone with 10% more damage will do.
Already in PC its not a good idea to have more than two actual logis, as their relative combat inefficacy brings down the team. With the changes proposed in the OP, logis just become a severe liability. They become a token fit you swap into every other death to put up more uplinks and nanohives before you swap back to assault.
The only way I can see logi's still being useful in PC is if you bring the EHP buff to all logi classes. I think you underestimate what 10% damage will do... that's the difference between adv and proto weapons. I dunno.. it just seems to me, that since this is a shooter.. logis might want to get up and shoot people too... but if 2 equipment slots is going to cost me a sidearm, 10% move speed, and 10% damage... its not worth it to me.
But maybe I was always an assault player and shouldn't have spec'd logi in the first place. |
xSir Campsalotx
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
17
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 09:43:00 -
[165] - Quote
What about making logis run equipment, or making the equipment on said suit a higher than or equal to meta level than weapon. True logis won't care cause they run good equipment anyways and this prevents slayer logis from just speccing basic equipment then running a duvolle. Thus either tank or damage is hurt, you could still run proto equipment with duvolle but suffer weak tank. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 14:22:00 -
[166] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:I guess its just time for me to roll assault then. I enjoyed being able to actually play on the frontline with my assault buddies while still providing some support via equipment. But clearly everyone wants to make sure logis get nothing but a few token kill steals in a game.
It was a good run, but c'est la vie. All I can hope is that remnant makes these changes after 1.4... so I can hopefully be close to the 2.5 mil needed to run an assault suit. Gonna be very interesting to see what people think if assaults get a 10% damage bonus, pretty sure you won't see many logis after that.
Sounds more like your a slayer at heart, which is fine but the suits should have some slight role division. If logis are 1 to 1 with assaults stat wise, losing only in the stat they don't boost (hp, speed, or damage) while having more equipment slots makes Assaults question their role. I think this is also reflected by the fact that this is probably one of the few games where the "support" role was was populated by close to half of the player population, because it was an assault with slightly lower stats and more equipment slots. Essentially no logi is leaving logi, just assaults.
Back in Beta where we scouts were able to effectively speed tank, we got populated by a lot of assaults and had the nerf hammer smack us hard. A suggesting of buffing assaults through racials is a much more beneficial method for give assaults their role vs nerfing logis into our current status. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
855
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 14:46:00 -
[167] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I guess its just time for me to roll assault then. I enjoyed being able to actually play on the frontline with my assault buddies while still providing some support via equipment. But clearly everyone wants to make sure logis get nothing but a few token kill steals in a game.
It was a good run, but c'est la vie. All I can hope is that remnant makes these changes after 1.4... so I can hopefully be close to the 2.5 mil needed to run an assault suit. Gonna be very interesting to see what people think if assaults get a 10% damage bonus, pretty sure you won't see many logis after that. Sounds more like your a slayer at heart, which is fine but the suits should have some slight role division. If logis are 1 to 1 with assaults stat wise, losing only in the stat they don't boost (hp, speed, or damage) while having more equipment slots makes Assaults question their role. I think this is also reflected by the fact that this is probably one of the few games where the "support" role was was populated by close to half of the player population, because it was an assault with slightly lower stats and more equipment slots. Essentially no logi is leaving logi, just assaults. Back in Beta where we scouts were able to effectively speed tank, we got populated by a lot of assaults and had the nerf hammer smack us hard. A suggesting of buffing assaults through racials is a much more beneficial method for give assaults their role vs nerfing logis into our current status.
I enjoy actually playing support to a squad... but come on... its a shooter game. I think most of us want to shoot our gun.. no?
I understand there are some true die hard logis out there who would prefer if their primary weapon was a repair tool so they could run another piece of equipment... but I can't imagine that is the play style they were going for. In PS2 I could see that play style working really well, but in a 16v16 shooter... someone who plays like that is generally just gimping their team by taking a gun off the field.
I just don't want to have to run every time I see a proto assault cause I know its going to end in death... that just sounds sad
Seems like PC is going to end up being completely assault/heavy though eventually anyways... there's no place for true logis in PC when the action is too intense to even bother trying to revive people and nobody sits still enough for reps. Assaults spawning in with 50% uplinks and 50% nanohives can do the job so much better. I guess thats the reason im pushing for the cal logi to remain as it is and to bring up other logis to its level, instead of nerfing cal logi down so its forced to play 'true logi'.
I know it doesn't seem like it in pubs, when people like me are running around pubstomping... but I played b-series logi in chromosome and did the same thing (getting better scores than I do now). Its not that I'm crutching on cal logi to continue pubstomping... that is not at all the reason why I am posting to keep it the way it is. I am just trying to keep logis viable in PC, in which cal logi is actually fairly well balanced with its shield bonus. I'm not generally looking for fights, but if someone is coming after me... I stand a chance at least. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
855
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 15:00:00 -
[168] - Quote
also another thing I've been considering... a 10% damage increase on assaults would completely nullify the use of any other suit for sniping. Something to consider... scout sniping would be thing of the past. |
Killar-12
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
104
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 17:24:00 -
[169] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:also another thing I've been considering... a 10% damage increase on assaults would completely nullify the use of any other suit for sniping. Something to consider... scout sniping would be thing of the past. Hmm... Okay give scouts another Equipment slot and a little extra PG/CPU |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
176
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 17:32:00 -
[170] - Quote
I have been thinking about it for awhile and I think they could give Scout Suits way more CPU/PG so they could run Proto everything.
It would be a true risk reward because the suits die quickly but if you could have proto weapons with complex everything you could be highly effective but when you lose that suit you may actually "feel" it.
Scout Sniping is already a thing of the past for many because slots are already limited and suit power low. |
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Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
441
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 17:50:00 -
[171] - Quote
I am convinced the Amarr Assault (reduction in heat build up) and Amarr Commando (efficiency of armor/shield mods) bonuses need to be swapped. I own both suits. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1816
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 05:59:00 -
[172] - Quote
Since PS2 bomber has removed any content-filled threads by filling up the front page with 3 month old threads, I'll take a moment to bump. |
XxWarlordxX97
Internal Error. League of Infamy
4018
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 06:04:00 -
[173] - Quote
I just want my new heavies suits |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1817
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 06:12:00 -
[174] - Quote
XxWarlordxX97 wrote:I just want my new heavies suits
And I certainly hope CCP wises up and makes the bonuses for those suits actually useful. |
XxWarlordxX97
Internal Error. League of Infamy
4018
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 06:14:00 -
[175] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:XxWarlordxX97 wrote:I just want my new heavies suits And I certainly hope CCP wises up and makes the bonuses for those suits actually useful. I hope so |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 07:18:00 -
[176] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I guess its just time for me to roll assault then. I enjoyed being able to actually play on the frontline with my assault buddies while still providing some support via equipment. But clearly everyone wants to make sure logis get nothing but a few token kill steals in a game.
It was a good run, but c'est la vie. All I can hope is that remnant makes these changes after 1.4... so I can hopefully be close to the 2.5 mil needed to run an assault suit. Gonna be very interesting to see what people think if assaults get a 10% damage bonus, pretty sure you won't see many logis after that. Sounds more like your a slayer at heart, which is fine but the suits should have some slight role division. If logis are 1 to 1 with assaults stat wise, losing only in the stat they don't boost (hp, speed, or damage) while having more equipment slots makes Assaults question their role. I think this is also reflected by the fact that this is probably one of the few games where the "support" role was was populated by close to half of the player population, because it was an assault with slightly lower stats and more equipment slots. Essentially no logi is leaving logi, just assaults. Back in Beta where we scouts were able to effectively speed tank, we got populated by a lot of assaults and had the nerf hammer smack us hard. A suggesting of buffing assaults through racials is a much more beneficial method for give assaults their role vs nerfing logis into our current status. I enjoy actually playing support to a squad... but come on... its a shooter game. I think most of us want to shoot our gun.. no? I understand there are some true die hard logis out there who would prefer if their primary weapon was a repair tool so they could run another piece of equipment... but I can't imagine that is the play style they were going for. In PS2 I could see that play style working really well, but in a 16v16 shooter... someone who plays like that is generally just gimping their team by taking a gun off the field. I just don't want to have to run every time I see a proto assault cause I know its going to end in death... that just sounds sad Seems like PC is going to end up being completely assault/heavy though eventually anyways... there's no place for true logis in PC when the action is too intense to even bother trying to revive people and nobody sits still enough for reps. Assaults spawning in with 50% uplinks and 50% nanohives can do the job so much better. I guess thats the reason im pushing for the cal logi to remain as it is and to bring up other logis to its level, instead of nerfing cal logi down so its forced to play 'true logi'. I know it doesn't seem like it in pubs, when people like me are running around pubstomping... but I played b-series logi in chromosome and did the same thing (getting better scores than I do now). Its not that I'm crutching on cal logi to continue pubstomping... that is not at all the reason why I am posting to keep it the way it is. I am just trying to keep logis viable in PC, in which cal logi is actually fairly well balanced with its shield bonus. I'm not generally looking for fights, but if someone is coming after me... I stand a chance at least.
Fair enough, and I understand this as well, I'm very adamant against those who were pushing to remove the light weapon from logis. I also think if assaults got that 10% boost, then they should lose their equipment slot.
You are also right that I am ignorant on PC matches since I've only played very few of them.
I actually don't want to nerf the calogi, he is the quintessential "heavy" logi and a bonus to one single equipment item really is a bad racial. Plus the 10% boost for assaults is meant to balance the difference, taking the heavy logi away plus the 10% would be too much in my opinion.
In regards to scout snipers, scouts can't snipe that well anyways due to not being able to take any punishment. The only reason you see scout snipers is because the scout is unable to flank a given situation so that ends up being the next best alternative. I"m hoping that cloaking gives you a trade off between high damage snipers vs utility snipers. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1820
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 03:36:00 -
[177] - Quote
Once again it would seem the General Discussion is devoid of any up-to-date threads, so I'll bump again, still looking for a Calogi bonus recommendation if anyone wants to throw an idea in. |
EternalRMG
Eir Gaming
358
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 03:40:00 -
[178] - Quote
shield recharge delay reduction?
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1822
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 03:42:00 -
[179] - Quote
EternalRMG wrote:shield recharge delay reduction?
To keep it in line with the other bonuses, it would be best if it were some kind of support bonus. I started with +10% nanohive nanites per level, but apparently that was UP, so I just have it blank now. |
EternalRMG
Eir Gaming
358
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 03:44:00 -
[180] - Quote
Injector effectiveness?
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1822
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 03:48:00 -
[181] - Quote
EternalRMG wrote:Injector effectiveness?
I don't really want to constrain the Calogi to any one profession, there would probably be a lot of complaint from the Calogi users about being forced to use one specific role, which is also why they didn't like my nanohive buff. Basically it needs to be a very broad bonus, like 5% to all equipment effectiveness, or something along those lines.
I just can't think of anything that wouldn't be OP. |
EternalRMG
Eir Gaming
358
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 03:50:00 -
[182] - Quote
recharge delay reduction is the only viable for caldari it like the Amarr one, but with shields |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
1822
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 03:54:00 -
[183] - Quote
EternalRMG wrote:recharge delay reduction is the only viable for caldari it like the Amarr one, but with shields
I'll place it in, and then see if I get any negative feedback from it. |
Killar-12
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
133
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 05:54:00 -
[184] - Quote
Shouldn't heavies get a boost to health? |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
76
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 07:28:00 -
[185] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:EternalRMG wrote:recharge delay reduction is the only viable for caldari it like the Amarr one, but with shields I'll place it in, and then see if I get any negative feedback from it.
Two things to consider about logistics, if we keep calogi the same then we have this spread between logis.
Min Logi: scout like Amarr Logi: assault like Cal logi: heavy like Gal Logi: pure logi
The 10% boost to assault should be adequate enough to create inequality between the two for slayer roles.
If you are indeed intent on changing the calogi, a general nanite bonus would be better and in exchange bump up the shields of the calogi a little bit meaning that those front line items get better use due to his increased livelihood |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2024
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 01:26:00 -
[186] - Quote
I figure I will bump this one more time, I added what I believe the missing suits' bonuses should be. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1603
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 01:32:00 -
[187] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:I figure I will bump this one more time, I added what I believe the missing suits' bonuses should be.
Any predictions on what you think the new logi bonuses will be? |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2024
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 01:34:00 -
[188] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I figure I will bump this one more time, I added what I believe the missing suits' bonuses should be. Any predictions on what you think the new logi bonuses will be?
Couldn't tell you since I am not a CCP employee (no I am not CCP Logibro) but something tells me they all have something completely different in mind than what I am recommending. 1.4 is infantry focused so I have been told, so if it will be soon without the TM, then it will be then. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2024
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:22:00 -
[189] - Quote
No new suggestions? I came up with the Commando bonuses off the top of my head, so I expected them to be pretty bad. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1605
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:30:00 -
[190] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I figure I will bump this one more time, I added what I believe the missing suits' bonuses should be. Any predictions on what you think the new logi bonuses will be? Couldn't tell you since I am not a CCP employee (no I am not CCP Logibro) but something tells me they all have something completely different in mind than what I am recommending. 1.4 is infantry focused so I have been told, so if it will be soon without the TM, then it will be then.
They've already said it'll be equipment based bonuses...
So something like:
Caldari: Nanohives bonus Gallente: Rep Tool? Amarr: Drop Uplinks Minmatar: Scanner maybe? |
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Cosgar
ParagonX
4107
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:31:00 -
[191] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I figure I will bump this one more time, I added what I believe the missing suits' bonuses should be. Any predictions on what you think the new logi bonuses will be? Couldn't tell you since I am not a CCP employee (no I am not CCP Logibro) but something tells me they all have something completely different in mind than what I am recommending. 1.4 is infantry focused so I have been told, so if it will be soon without the TM, then it will be then. They've already said it'll be equipment based bonuses... So something like: Caldari: Nanohives bonus Gallente: Rep Tool? Amarr: Drop Uplinks Minmatar: Scanner maybe? Those are horrible bonuses. What's going to happen when we get more equipment to use? |
ratamaq doc
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:32:00 -
[192] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I figure I will bump this one more time, I added what I believe the missing suits' bonuses should be. Any predictions on what you think the new logi bonuses will be? Couldn't tell you since I am not a CCP employee (no I am not CCP Logibro) but something tells me they all have something completely different in mind than what I am recommending. 1.4 is infantry focused so I have been told, so if it will be soon without the TM, then it will be then. They've already said it'll be equipment based bonuses... So something like: Caldari: Nanohives bonus Gallente: Rep Tool? Amarr: Drop Uplinks Minmatar: Scanner maybe?
Man I'm going to be heart broken if/when they take my hack bonus. That thing is amazing. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
4107
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:35:00 -
[193] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:
Man I'm going to be heart broken if/when they take my hack bonus. That thing is amazing.
I hope they don't take it either. The suit's had it since E3. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2024
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:36:00 -
[194] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I figure I will bump this one more time, I added what I believe the missing suits' bonuses should be. Any predictions on what you think the new logi bonuses will be? Couldn't tell you since I am not a CCP employee (no I am not CCP Logibro) but something tells me they all have something completely different in mind than what I am recommending. 1.4 is infantry focused so I have been told, so if it will be soon without the TM, then it will be then. They've already said it'll be equipment based bonuses... So something like: Caldari: Nanohives bonus Gallente: Rep Tool? Amarr: Drop Uplinks Minmatar: Scanner maybe?
I honestly think that they would be making a mistake to change the Minmatar, Gallente, and Amarr bonuses. The Minnie and Gal bonuses are already logistics bonuses, and the Amarr logi is supposed to be half assault, so its bonus makes sense. The only bonus that makes no sense is the Caldari one at the moment, HOWEVER if they did make the mistake of changing them I would say it would be:
Caldari: Nanohives Gallente: Nanite Injector Amarr: Drop Uplinks Minmatar: Repair Tool |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2024
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:39:00 -
[195] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Man I'm going to be heart broken if/when they take my hack bonus. That thing is amazing.
I agree, and same goes for Gallente and Amarr even though I don't play as them, they are the only bonuses in place currently that I agree with.
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Cosgar
ParagonX
4107
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:43:00 -
[196] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Logi Bro wrote:I figure I will bump this one more time, I added what I believe the missing suits' bonuses should be. Any predictions on what you think the new logi bonuses will be? Couldn't tell you since I am not a CCP employee (no I am not CCP Logibro) but something tells me they all have something completely different in mind than what I am recommending. 1.4 is infantry focused so I have been told, so if it will be soon without the TM, then it will be then. They've already said it'll be equipment based bonuses... So something like: Caldari: Nanohives bonus Gallente: Rep Tool? Amarr: Drop Uplinks Minmatar: Scanner maybe? I honestly think that they would be making a mistake to change the Minmatar, Gallente, and Amarr bonuses. The Minnie and Gal bonuses are already logistics bonuses, and the Amarr logi is supposed to be half assault, so its bonus makes sense. The only bonus that makes no sense is the Caldari one at the moment, HOWEVER if they did make the mistake of changing them I would say it would be: Caldari: Nanohives Gallente: Nanite Injector Amarr: Drop Uplinks Minmatar: Repair Tool I think there should be a medic suit designed for specific equipment so that the logistics can have general equipment bonuses. I rarely use my repper on my Minmatar unless I'm babysitting a heavy. |
pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate
639
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:44:00 -
[197] - Quote
The only bonus I wonder about is why the minja scout gets a bonus for caldari weponary. Nova knives are caldari afterall. Toud think thed give the minis tgeir own knives . |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2024
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:46:00 -
[198] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:The only bonus I wonder about is why the minja scout gets a bonus for caldari weponary. Nova knives are caldari afterall. Toud think thed give the minis tgeir own knives .
That's.....a really good point. I know they said they will add racial knives in the future, so I wonder if they will change the bonus to apply to all knives or just the Minnie knives? |
pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate
639
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:48:00 -
[199] - Quote
Im not complaining I love minjaing peiple to death with my zn knives . |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2024
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:48:00 -
[200] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:I think there should be a medic suit designed for specific equipment so that the logistics can have general equipment bonuses. I rarely use my repper on my Minmatar unless I'm babysitting a heavy.
When I first heard about the Crusader suit, that is what I imagined it to be, a suit designed to strengthen and triage team-mates, while the logistics suit could run EWAR and offensive equipment, like scanners, REs, PEs, and uplinks.
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2025
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 04:55:00 -
[201] - Quote
... |
Cosgar
ParagonX
4111
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 05:22:00 -
[202] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Cosgar wrote:I think there should be a medic suit designed for specific equipment so that the logistics can have general equipment bonuses. I rarely use my repper on my Minmatar unless I'm babysitting a heavy. When I first heard about the Crusader suit, that is what I imagined it to be, a suit designed to strengthen and triage team-mates, while the logistics suit could run EWAR and offensive equipment, like scanners, REs, PEs, and uplinks. Exactly the point I've been trying to make since all this drama started. Don't limit the suit to one specific thing. Hell, I'll be happy if they just give all the suits the Gallente racial as the logi bonus and give the Gallente a new racial while buffing the assaults. (to make them STFU at least) |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
127
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 05:53:00 -
[203] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Cosgar wrote:I think there should be a medic suit designed for specific equipment so that the logistics can have general equipment bonuses. I rarely use my repper on my Minmatar unless I'm babysitting a heavy. When I first heard about the Crusader suit, that is what I imagined it to be, a suit designed to strengthen and triage team-mates, while the logistics suit could run EWAR and offensive equipment, like scanners, REs, PEs, and uplinks.
-1
Are scouts just there to look pretty as floor mats?
Scouts do infarct exist in the game and should function as the team dividers through ewar. Currently we suffer by having to act like wannabe assaults but without the tools.
Consider the following,
Medium suits make better snipers by having the hp to survive a counter snipe and by having much higher spike damage by having more cpu/pg and slots for damage mods.
Medium suits can also with slots refocus themselves to on par with scout sprinting speeds and function in cqc with less risk than scouts, scouts can do it cheaper but with a higher death count.
Being able to passively detect someone within 10 to 20 meters does nothing for our wps and very little for our survivability. Common AR killing range is 60 meters, though I guess nova knife users should be wary now right?
Scout racials need two of the following characteristics, high spike damage or ewar effectiveness. And if you noticed I said ewar effectiveness not cpu/pg reductions because scouts will never be able to close the gap with the other suits.
Cal Scout: % to effectiveness of noise inducing equipment and ECCM (ewar resistance) This scout would function by creating false information or by cutting off real information of which wps would be earned from it.
Ama Scout: % capacitor equipment effectiveness
These would be items that would drain shields and give it to the A.Scout, or would disrupt enemy weapons systems,
Min Scout: % bonus to Tackling equipment The Min being one of thy fastest suits being able to reduce the speed of other suits by either slowing them to crawl and aiming speeds. This would allow the suit to wreck the effected afterwards.
Gal Scout: % strength stealth and detection modules
Self explanatory but essentially it benefit from all its low slots being able to customize and get more out of each modules
|
Cosgar
ParagonX
4112
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 06:00:00 -
[204] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Cosgar wrote:I think there should be a medic suit designed for specific equipment so that the logistics can have general equipment bonuses. I rarely use my repper on my Minmatar unless I'm babysitting a heavy. When I first heard about the Crusader suit, that is what I imagined it to be, a suit designed to strengthen and triage team-mates, while the logistics suit could run EWAR and offensive equipment, like scanners, REs, PEs, and uplinks. -1 Are scouts just there to look pretty as floor mats? Scouts do infarct exist in the game and should function as the team dividers through ewar. Currently we suffer by having to act like wannabe assaults but without the tools. Consider the following, Medium suits make better snipers by having the hp to survive a counter snipe and by having much higher spike damage by having more cpu/pg and slots for damage mods. Medium suits can also with slots refocus themselves to on par with scout sprinting speeds and function in cqc with less risk than scouts, scouts can do it cheaper but with a higher death count. Being able to passively detect someone within 10 to 20 meters does nothing for our wps and very little for our survivability. Common AR killing range is 60 meters, though I guess nova knife users should be wary now right? Scout racials need two of the following characteristics, high spike damage or ewar effectiveness. And if you noticed I said ewar effectiveness not cpu/pg reductions because scouts will never be able to close the gap with the other suits. Cal Scout: % to effectiveness of noise inducing equipment and ECCM (ewar resistance) This scout would function by creating false information or by cutting off real information of which wps would be earned from it. Ama Scout: % capacitor equipment effectiveness These would be items that would drain shields and give it to the A.Scout, or would disrupt enemy weapons systems, Min Scout: % bonus to Tackling equipment The Min being one of thy fastest suits being able to reduce the speed of other suits by either slowing them to crawl and aiming speeds. This would allow the suit to wreck the effected afterwards. Gal Scout: % strength stealth and detection modules Self explanatory but essentially it benefit from all its low slots being able to customize and get more out of each modules I'd imagine that they'll rebalance scouts by giving them their extra equipment slot back and add in cloaking already. There's enough EWAR to go around. Chill out. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
127
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 06:07:00 -
[205] - Quote
Cosgar wrote: I'd imagine that they'll rebalance scouts by giving them their extra equipment slot back and add in cloaking already. There's enough EWAR to go around. Chill out.
With the same logic, that is like saying there is enough guns to go around, everything in the game is based on relative performance, thus scouts users are very often cut off from pc matches and the like due to the fact that medium suits can either match it or do it better. Essentially scouts severely lack their own unique role and are disadvantaged while trying any other.
It is that bad, also in the post about active scanners indicated that cloaking was still on the table, either way further down the road or not going to be implemented at all due to balancing difficulties. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2026
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 06:11:00 -
[206] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote: -1
Are scouts just there to look pretty as floor mats?
Scouts do infarct exist in the game and should function as the team dividers through ewar. Currently we suffer by having to act like wannabe assaults but without the tools.
Consider the following,
Medium suits make better snipers by having the hp to survive a counter snipe and by having much higher spike damage by having more cpu/pg and slots for damage mods.
Medium suits can also with slots refocus themselves to on par with scout sprinting speeds and function in cqc with less risk than scouts, scouts can do it cheaper but with a higher death count.
Being able to passively detect someone within 10 to 20 meters does nothing for our wps and very little for our survivability. Common AR killing range is 60 meters, though I guess nova knife users should be wary now right?
Scout racials need two of the following characteristics, high spike damage or ewar effectiveness. And if you noticed I said ewar effectiveness not cpu/pg reductions because scouts will never be able to close the gap with the other suits.
Cal Scout: % to effectiveness of noise inducing equipment and ECCM (ewar resistance) This scout would function by creating false information or by cutting off real information of which wps would be earned from it.
Ama Scout: % capacitor equipment effectiveness
These would be items that would drain shields and give it to the A.Scout, or would disrupt enemy weapons systems,
Min Scout: % bonus to Tackling equipment The Min being one of thy fastest suits being able to reduce the speed of other suits by either slowing them to crawl and aiming speeds. This would allow the suit to wreck the effected afterwards.
Gal Scout: % strength stealth and detection modules
Self explanatory but essentially it benefit from all its low slots being able to customize and get more out of each modules
My specific knowledge of EWAR is few and far between, but bare with me here: I believe it has been stated that in the future passive scanning will be much more useful due to the fact that shared team vision will be removed, so the only way to share TACNET information to your team will be through your scan radius and scan precision, and the only way to prevent the enemy from getting TACNET information on you will be though scan profile. Seeing this as the likely future, I believe the current scout bonuses I have proposed will be very useful for tactical information. Speaking of capacitors, I find the likeliness of this ever being added to Dust very small, seeing as it would require a major rework of our current system for it to properly work. Although if it were stated to ever actually be possible, I would be willing to change my ideas. I also believe scouts should have a much larger scan radius as a base stat, as this would help them fill their rolls nicely, and I do expect CCP to do this at some point. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
4112
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 06:14:00 -
[207] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Cosgar wrote: I'd imagine that they'll rebalance scouts by giving them their extra equipment slot back and add in cloaking already. There's enough EWAR to go around. Chill out.
With the same logic, that is like saying there is enough guns to go around, everything in the game is based on relative performance, thus scouts users are very often cut off from pc matches and the like due to the fact that medium suits can either match it or do it better. Essentially scouts severely lack their own unique role and are disadvantaged while trying any other. It is that bad, also in the post about active scanners indicated that cloaking was still on the table, either way further down the road or not going to be implemented at all due to balancing difficulties. Balancing difficulties = predicting Assault QQ. I wouldn't be surprised if cloaking came in pre-nerfed just so they could buff it up later.
One thing I've noticed about PC is that equipment is huge. Just from giving scouts back their second slot and the speed, that'd be a huge advantage even without cloaking. But in the long run, scouts are going to need more indirect combat options just like logistics.
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Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
127
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 06:16:00 -
[208] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote: My specific knowledge of EWAR is few and far between, but bare with me here: I believe it has been stated that in the future passive scanning will be much more useful due to the fact that shared team vision will be removed, so the only way to share TACNET information to your team will be through your scan radius and scan precision, and the only way to prevent the enemy from getting TACNET information on you will be though scan profile. Seeing this as the likely future, I believe the current scout bonuses I have proposed will be very useful for tactical information. Speaking of capacitors, I find the likeliness of this ever being added to Dust very small, seeing as it would require a major rework of our current system for it to properly work. Although if it were stated to ever actually be possible, I would be willing to change my ideas. I also believe scouts should have a much larger scan radius as a base stat, as this would help them fill their rolls nicely, and I do expect CCP to do this at some point.
I agree that my Min and Gal suggestions are weak, my other bonus was a grenade bonus for minmatars, but vision will not be shared by passive scans or line of sight from what I read on it, it will not light them up on tacnet, only the active scanners and even then only to your squad mates. |
Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2026
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 06:23:00 -
[209] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Logi Bro wrote: My specific knowledge of EWAR is few and far between, but bare with me here: I believe it has been stated that in the future passive scanning will be much more useful due to the fact that shared team vision will be removed, so the only way to share TACNET information to your team will be through your scan radius and scan precision, and the only way to prevent the enemy from getting TACNET information on you will be though scan profile. Seeing this as the likely future, I believe the current scout bonuses I have proposed will be very useful for tactical information. Speaking of capacitors, I find the likeliness of this ever being added to Dust very small, seeing as it would require a major rework of our current system for it to properly work. Although if it were stated to ever actually be possible, I would be willing to change my ideas. I also believe scouts should have a much larger scan radius as a base stat, as this would help them fill their rolls nicely, and I do expect CCP to do this at some point.
Vision will not be shared by passive scans or line of sight from what I read on it, it will not light them up on tacnet, only the active scanners and even then only to your squad mates.
If this is the case, CCP needs to fix it so passive scanning is still a factor, because otherwise scouting will be useless until they decide to introduce real EWAR like webifiers, which could be who knows how long. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
127
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:05:00 -
[210] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Logi Bro wrote: My specific knowledge of EWAR is few and far between, but bare with me here: I believe it has been stated that in the future passive scanning will be much more useful due to the fact that shared team vision will be removed, so the only way to share TACNET information to your team will be through your scan radius and scan precision, and the only way to prevent the enemy from getting TACNET information on you will be though scan profile. Seeing this as the likely future, I believe the current scout bonuses I have proposed will be very useful for tactical information. Speaking of capacitors, I find the likeliness of this ever being added to Dust very small, seeing as it would require a major rework of our current system for it to properly work. Although if it were stated to ever actually be possible, I would be willing to change my ideas. I also believe scouts should have a much larger scan radius as a base stat, as this would help them fill their rolls nicely, and I do expect CCP to do this at some point.
Vision will not be shared by passive scans or line of sight from what I read on it, it will not light them up on tacnet, only the active scanners and even then only to your squad mates. If this is the case, CCP needs to fix it so passive scanning is still a factor, because otherwise scouting will be useless until they decide to introduce real EWAR like webifiers, which could be who knows how long.
If passive shared info to the team then it would hurt active scanning wps that a scout could be earning for the same effect but with a larger range and precision. This is why scouts need to be focused on 1)wps from specific equipment or 2) Spike damage |
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hackerzilla
Defenders of the Helghast Dream
200
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:18:00 -
[211] - Quote
+1 except for Cal logi bonus, it's way to specific... let it be what it is currently, the regulator bonus... |
Dj grammer
Red Star. EoN.
29
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 07:56:00 -
[212] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Since I get the feeling that most people write and read in General Discussion exclusively, I am copying and pasting this from Feedback/Requests.
Racial bonuses create imbalances in the game. They seem completely and utterly arbitrary, and the game's overall balance suffers for it. We all know the most glaring and over-discussed racial bonus, the Caldari logi shield extender buff(fixed since when this was first posted), but what about the heavy's "weapon feedback damage reduction?" What about the shield recharge rate increase to all the assault suits, even though it mostly benefits Amarr and Caldari? If any of these bonuses have any real reason behind them, may a Dev feel free to come in and tell me about it, but otherwise, I suggest a complete re-work of racial bonuses, and class bonuses.
Assault Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level Caldari Assault Bonus- 5% shield recharge rate increase per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 10% basic armor plate movement penalty reduction per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- 3% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level
Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- +1 armor repair per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive efficacy increase per level* Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment CPU/PG reduction per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module rate increase per level
Sentinel Sentinel Dropsuit Bonus- 5% base shield and base armor increase per level Caldari Sentinel Bonus- 3% shield module PG/CPU usage reduction per level*** Gallente Sentinel Bonus- 3% heavy weapon reload rate increase per level Minamtar Sentinel Bonus- 2% movement/run speed increase per level Amarr Sentinel Bonus- 2% module efficacy increase per level
Commando Commando Dropsuit Bonus- 3% light weapon CPU/PG decrease per level Caldari Commando Bonus- 10% ammunition carry capacity increase per level Gallente Commando Bonus- 3% light weapon dispersion decrease per level Minmatar Commando Bonus- 2% light weapon RoF increase per level Amarr Commando Bonus- 3% light weapon range increase per level
Scout Scout Dropsuit Bonus- 5% scan profile reduction per level Caldari Scout Bonus- 5% scan precision decrease per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level Amarr Scout Bonus- 5% stamina/stamina regeneration increase per level
You can see, the bonuses have been changed to fit the role of the suit. The assault dropsuit's role has been strengthened for long life and general combat, the logistics dropsuit's role has been strengthened to triage and miscellaneous activities, and the heavy dropsuit's role has been strengthened to survivability beyond the assault dropsuit. Scouts still retain their recon and intelligence roles, the Commando suit is a master of combat, and they are all spec'd to do what they are meant to do. Most importantly, there were no dropsuit base stat nerfs, which seems to be most people's ideas to fix imbalances.
Feel free to make your own amendments, and comment, as I am always willing to make changes to my own ideas if you make a reasonable argument.
*(this includes number of nanites, resupply rate, and for triage nanohives, armor repair rate.)
***(this includes ALL shield related modules, i.e. rechargers, regulators, energizers, and extenders.)
I am all in for this one +1
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Logi Bro
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
2134
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:33:00 -
[213] - Quote
One last time, I made a few changes, I figure if I get no Dev response from this bump, I'll just go ahead and give up.
As always, if you have anything that you would change, feel free to let me know. |
Grims Tooth
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
20
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Posted - 2013.10.07 23:34:00 -
[214] - Quote
Don't give up, this issue desperately needs a dev response. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1093
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 07:28:00 -
[215] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Cosgar wrote:I think there should be a medic suit designed for specific equipment so that the logistics can have general equipment bonuses. I rarely use my repper on my Minmatar unless I'm babysitting a heavy. When I first heard about the Crusader suit, that is what I imagined it to be, a suit designed to strengthen and triage team-mates, while the logistics suit could run EWAR and offensive equipment, like scanners, REs, PEs, and uplinks.
That's backwards though. The name Logistics is EVE-speak for White Mage, so the newer suit would be an Engineer-esque suit for the offensive and esoteric equipment while the Logistics suit should be refined more towards actually doing Logistics. Furthermore, as a Minmatar Logi, I take offense to the idea that the Caldari Logi should be the only suit to get bonuses to the Logistics toolset, leaving the Minmatar Logi with a bonus better put on a Scout and with no direct tie to Logistics beyond 'hack this while we cover you because your gun is smaller.'
Also, this thread over here seems to have a few better ideas. |
Zero Harpuia
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
1093
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 07:32:00 -
[216] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Logi Bro wrote: My specific knowledge of EWAR is few and far between, but bare with me here: I believe it has been stated that in the future passive scanning will be much more useful due to the fact that shared team vision will be removed, so the only way to share TACNET information to your team will be through your scan radius and scan precision, and the only way to prevent the enemy from getting TACNET information on you will be though scan profile. Seeing this as the likely future, I believe the current scout bonuses I have proposed will be very useful for tactical information. Speaking of capacitors, I find the likeliness of this ever being added to Dust very small, seeing as it would require a major rework of our current system for it to properly work. Although if it were stated to ever actually be possible, I would be willing to change my ideas. I also believe scouts should have a much larger scan radius as a base stat, as this would help them fill their rolls nicely, and I do expect CCP to do this at some point.
Vision will not be shared by passive scans or line of sight from what I read on it, it will not light them up on tacnet, only the active scanners and even then only to your squad mates. If this is the case, CCP needs to fix it so passive scanning is still a factor, because otherwise scouting will be useless until they decide to introduce real EWAR like webifiers, which could be who knows how long.
Not quite. The new system is designed more in the scout's favor than against it, making the Passive Scanners a defensive tool of survival as opposed to the offensive minded active scanner. Also, a Scout can see a target with his passive scanners, then he can just as easily relay that information to a teammate with voicechat. That's the draw of Active Scanners, as they are a painter as opposed to a spotter. |
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1148
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 07:58:00 -
[217] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Since I get the feeling that most people write and read in General Discussion exclusively, I am copying and pasting this from Feedback/Requests.
Racial bonuses create imbalances in the game. They seem completely and utterly arbitrary, and the game's overall balance suffers for it. We all know the most glaring and over-discussed racial bonus, the Caldari logi shield extender buff(fixed since when this was first posted), but what about the heavy's "weapon feedback damage reduction?" What about the shield recharge rate increase to all the assault suits, even though it mostly benefits Amarr and Caldari? If any of these bonuses have any real reason behind them, may a Dev feel free to come in and tell me about it, but otherwise, I suggest a complete re-work of racial bonuses, and class bonuses.
Assault Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level Caldari Assault Bonus- 5% shield recharge delay decrease per level Gallente Assault Bonus- 10% armor plate movement penalty decrease per level Minmatar Assault Bonus- 3% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level
Logistics Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- +1 armor repair per level Caldari Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment efficacy increase per level (all equipment, excluding those that do damage) Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment CPU/PG reduction per level Minmatar Logistics Bonus- 5% hacking speed bonus per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module rate increase per level
Sentinel Sentinel Dropsuit Bonus- 5% base shield and base armor increase per level Caldari Sentinel Bonus- 5% shield recharge rate increase per level Gallente Sentinel Bonus- 3% heavy weapon reload rate increase per level Minamtar Sentinel Bonus- 2% movement/run speed increase per level Amarr Sentinel Bonus- 2% module efficacy increase per level
Commando Commando Dropsuit Bonus- 3% light weapon CPU/PG decrease per level Caldari Commando Bonus- 10% light ammunition carry capacity increase per level Gallente Commando Bonus- 3% light weapon dispersion decrease per level Minmatar Commando Bonus- 2% light weapon RoF increase per level Amarr Commando Bonus- 3% light weapon range increase per level
Scout Scout Dropsuit Bonus- 5% scan profile reduction per level Caldari Scout Bonus- 5% scan precision decrease per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit scan radius increase per level Minmatar Scout Bonus- 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level Amarr Scout Bonus- 5% stamina/stamina regeneration increase per level
You can see, the bonuses have been changed to fit the role of the suit. The assault dropsuit's role has been strengthened for long life and general combat, the logistics dropsuit's role has been strengthened to triage and miscellaneous activities, and the heavy dropsuit's role has been strengthened to survivability beyond the assault dropsuit. Scouts still retain their recon and intelligence roles, the Commando suit is a master of combat, and they are all spec'd to do what they are meant to do. Most importantly, there were no dropsuit base stat nerfs, which seems to be most people's ideas to fix imbalances.
Feel free to make your own amendments, and comment, as I am always willing to make changes to my own ideas if you make a reasonable argument.
Great overall, but in my opinion, some things should be changed around:
Gallente Assault bonus- should be a skill that all suits can train just like the ships in EVE and the vehicles can. Call it infantry armor composition (sticking to similarities of the vehicles, unless that skill gets changed to vehicle armor honeycombing). As for another idea, not sure.
Logistics bonus- change it to all non-damage, non-EWAR equipment fitting reduction
Gallente logistics bonus- give it Amarr's bonus
Amarr Logistics bonus- More equipment carried
Caldari Commando bonus- Give it Amarr's bonus
Amarr Commando bonus- Give it Caldari's bonus
Racial Scout bonus- When the EWAR stuff stats coming in, give the scouts their racially refereed EWAR (ex. Gallente Scouts gets a bonus towards active scanners, Caldari gets a bonus towards scanner jammer, etc.)
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
698
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 08:06:00 -
[218] - Quote
I can only repeat myself, a 2% dmg bonus per level or any dmg bonus is too much in this game currently. it is as a skill bonus unaffected by stacking penatly and makes every damage mod even more efficient as they currently are and the TTK is already very low, sub 1s in many cases. do you really want duvolles with 47 base dmg without any damage mods? |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
329
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 07:05:00 -
[219] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:I can only repeat myself, a 2% dmg bonus per level or any dmg bonus is too much in this game currently. it is as a skill bonus unaffected by stacking penatly and makes every damage mod even more efficient as they currently are and the TTK is already very low, sub 1s in many cases. do you really want duvolles with 47 base dmg without any damage mods?
beside that a damage bonus is worth alot more than the those suggested for the other suits...
The 2% bonus is just to be over the logi, the overall 10% increase to everything can be changed, but the 2% per level increase cements the assaults role. |
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