+1.

Personal preference makes me want the bonus to armor repair for assault to go to the Gallente though.

I'd probably drop the assault bonus to 1%, 15% or even 10% at max is rediculously powerful. Amarr and gallente should swap :) and the extender/plate increases to 2%. I think maybe even 1% to the amarr heavy bonus, 35% increase to armor/shields with maxed skills is A LOT.

What about energy weapons +1%?
Scramblers, lasers and such.

I want the rate repair rate back on the logi suit lol

But we're thee combat logis, in theory.. it's hard with the lower base health.

E'hh really good list though.

Side arm clip capacity is so lackluster for 3.1 million exp.. I'd be more interested in 2% light weapon reload speed per level instead.

I suggest giving Gallente Armor regeneration while giving Amarr the plate HP.
Gallente are more quick regeneration types while Amarr are the high eHP type.
Maybe give Gallente same bonus as logi? (5hp/s)

Sorry but I have to disagree with Amarr Assault. I want my Heat Buildup Skill!

Amarr Assault suits are the slowest already, using a plate and losing more strafe speed doesn't seem a good idea, as no modules can increase that. I think the current less heat buildup skill will be key to be competitive using Scrambler Rifles (and even LR), if they overheat too fast. We will find out soon.

Or include a bonus that either reduces or negates the armor penalty. Not sure if that'd make it too powerful or not. If they are the slowest already, reducing/negating speed penalty on them wouldn't be such a bad idea.

BRAVO! But the Gallente scout should increase ALL scanning by 10%, including active scanner. It's to slow to be a flanker scout, so it has to play a mobile support role.

Minmatar heavy bruiser variant +3% move speed increase per level.
Minmatar should always be the fastest and I see the heavy as a master of cqc urban warfare.
Caldari Heavy -5% charge times per level
Lots of Caldari weapons require charge times. This would turn the Caldari heavy into a walking weapons platform/turret
Gallente Heavy Sentinel +5% equipment efficiency (has 1 equipment slot, designed to use bubble shield) OR -5% damage to friendly unit healing it.
Defense focused

Caldari scout -5 % shield recharge delay
With low overall ehp (like 50 armor) this scout would rely on jumping in and out of cover to harass the enemy.
Amarr Scout -10% armor plate speed penalty
With good plates, this scout would be able to stand toe to toe with assaults, for a while at least.

Thank you logi bro! Damn its nice to see some logical discussion on this topic. I like all the changes you suggested. To be honest all I care about is the Gallante logi keeping the current bonus. If it weren't for that I could not do my duty as a logi. I hope all the cpm and ccp are paying close attention to your thread.

half those bonuses would easily make those classes OP

I think the entire racial bonus system needs to be re thought.

Basic racial suits should recieve a bonus, so what I would like to see is:
Minimatar bonus +2% move speed increase
Minmatar Scout +5% Nova Knife damage
Minmatar Assault +5% sidearm clipsize
Minmatar Logistics +5% repair tool effciency

rough example

Discussing the Gallente Scout's bonus of scan profile, it should probably be greater than 10% per level or give it a greater base value. Right now it has a base value of 10 meters. To see how worthless that is, check this out.

http://s23.postimg.org/vzroe12fv/minimap_ranges.jpg (note I did not make this nor take credit for it)

But ok 10% per level, so prototype Gallente Scout gets 15 meter radius. That is still within that first circle, still pretty useless. But ok Gallente Scout has 4 low slots, so let's use all of those on Complex Range Amplifiers. That is an additional 230%. That puts it's range at 38 meters. Ok, so now you are starting to see some benefit out of this as you reach the first tick on your radar. But that's when you do everything you absolutely can to max out this one attribute, and it leaves you with only 118 CPU to fit a high slot, light weapon, sidearm, grenade, and equipment for a complex tier suit. So maybe it's just me but again, either it needs to be more than a 10% bonus per level or give it a higher base value so that 10% means more.

I dont get why you suggest 3 bad-ass changes for Logistics, then you get to Minmatar and its all ohhh lets just leave that worthless +5% hacking speed that has nothing to do with Logistics? Please explain why anyone leveling into Logistics would want that enough to forgo the other 3 options and go Minmatar?

Take off the +2% weapon damage bonus off of the Assault suits - we just got the 10% bonus in the patch so this would upset the balance of the game.

I've seen the idea of buffing other suits as opposed to completely nerfing logi posted as a response in a few threads, I'm glad it's getting it's own topic because I think it's the way to go.

On the topic of the specific bonuses in the OP, If you look at the current assault bonuses they are divided between tank and gank. We get the 5% per level shield repair and a weapon based skill. The bonuses proposed vary in that the blanket damage boost provides more gank but some of the suits get tank and some get gank. Furthermore, several of the skills double up on bonuses from other skills such as armor repair efficacy.

Why do we have class bonuses at all? My assault class bonus doesn't stack or apply to other suits, it is more like a racial bonus that happens to be the same across races, the same thing applies to the logistics bonus. While armor repair is a sensible bonus to give to the logistics class and I approve it doesn't seem sensible to give a linear bonus to suits whose armor values vary so much.

I really think we should split the blanket assault skill into separate race assault skills with each suit getting specific bonuses to tank and gank. The logi class skill should keep its armor rep but make it +1% of base armor repaired per level rather than just +1 so that the non-shield logis get as much benefit from it.

If the Caldari logi is losing its extender bonus I'm not sure the assault needs it to achieve balance, the base stats support keeping the shield repair bonus as this saves you from having to fit a crippling shield booster to service the enormous amount of shield you will have. The reload skill also makes sense for a long range/sniping race and it translates well to other situations. Most of the balance here is about bringing the Caldari logi into line with this suit and removing its extender bonus achieves a lot of that already. If people still consider a reload speed buff UP I'd recommend recoil reduction for hybrid weapons as that seems a good ranged buff that is a bit stronger.

I also think that a speed penalty modifier for the Gallente suits make more sense than an efficacy bonus. Armor rep is fitted in proportion to armor HP, active rep doesn't really put enough of a dent in enemy dps for it to be your primary tank. You still need a lot of passive armor HP and this pushes the Gallente assault towards the heavy suit in terms of performance. We should be giving it -10% armor plate speed penalty per level. I know this pushes it more towards passive buffer but active tanking doesn't translate well to Dust. While we are getting ferroscale plates eventually I think that keeping full armor plates and their higher HP bonus competitive for armor tanking races is necessary, partly because ferroscale will be implemented. For gank a hybrid weapon damage buff fits nicely here but at a lower rate of gain to keep it in line with other races' bonuses.

As far as the Minmatar assault suit is concerned the clip size bonus is an odd one. It makes sense to some degree but percentage based clip size bonuses scale weirdly, especially for a race who vary between small clip weapons like the mass driver and flaylock pistol and large clip weapons like the SMG. Splash damage radius bonus doesn't make sense (not all Minmatar weapons have splash), ROF increase doesn't make sense (too OP for machine guns). I'll leave this one up to you guys. With few low slots and built in armor rep this speed suit would probably get the most out of a bonus to shield regulator fitting to further incentivize playing as a fast hit and run style suit.

I already like the Amarr weaponry bonus and would agree that it should be left the same. An armor resistance boost would fit well here as it has the advantage of increasing eHP with less need for rep, as befits the more independent medium frame suit.

As far as the specific logi, scout, and heavy bonuses go I don't play as those roles enough to make any substantial suggestions.

Dude, trust me, the Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle does not need anymore damage and I use it religiously.

I think the assault damage bonus should be changed to 15%.
So logis who want to have the same damage output, need to use two slots.

NO

If anyting reduce their reload speed or spread, adding damage into an already regular class its just stupid. Hell even increasing ammo clips by 5% per level on assault sounds more balanced.

or you want 90+ dmg TARs? I call bias in here.

+1 to thread

Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair tool rate increase per level-1 to this

Such a bonus has several flaws. It flattens the rep tools values by benefiting the Core tool more on balance and distorting the comparative effects/values of the other reppers.
Until CCP full converts repair tool WP earnings to a granular HP based system this bonus will lower the potential WPs earned by reducing the cycles/time required to make those repairs.
It gimps the Amarr suit which is already slower and possessing fewer slots thus struggling with survivability even in it's present state.

In addition it promotes the false assumption that durability is somehow outside the role of the Logi. I've been playing Logi since closed (as I'm sure you'll remember we've conversed in several threads along the way ), and providing support for my squad has never been an issue for me, for that matter WP earnings haven't been much of an issue either the two things which have consistently been issues throughout all the builds are
A) Mobility
B) Survivability

Mobility makes sense, Logi have a lot of gear and less direct need to flank, strafe etc than do the Scout or Assault roles. So while I do cap those skills ASAP most builds I don't begrudge this limitation, it comes with the territory.

Survivability however is another matter, eHP is vastly important to a Logi. As a rule (a few specific Uprising Cal Logi suit builds aside) Logi lack both the dps and speed of either the assault or the scout, furthermore much of our work calls for us to be taking shots on behalf of wounded or downed comrades while getting them to cover and back into fighting form.
Add to that the new "shoot me" yellow of logi ships and suits and things have just gotten even more dicey (which is still true even ignoring the brokenly OP TAR). A Logi can't do anything for the squad if that Logi is dead, the repair bonus helps keep a Logi alive but doesn't give the ability to soak sustained damage that a Heavy possesses.

The current bonus to the self repper mod is both the most role/tactically valuable for the Amarr Logi, I searched very extensively prior to spec'ing that the bonus was to self repping not the repair tool. As it stands the Amarr racial skill is an asset on the field which helps mitigate my greatest challenge changed to a repair tool buff it becomes something I wouldn't spec into until after hitting full proto on all my fits and every other Logi suit.

I vehemently oppose the idea of that as a change.

0.02 ISK
Cross

bump / additional consideration

The Cal Logi suit bonus type shouldn't be changed (having some survivability is most certainly in line with being a hot zone medic) the Cal Logi suit bonus amount on the other hand is another matter. I am still unconvinced that it's actually out of line with the Assault suits but it certainly looks to over-preform the rest of the Logi line.

As to the Assault class bonus, upon reflection doing something to vicariously increase the dps output rather than directly increasing the raw damage seems like a better fit. Having the net effect of giving the Assault suits more 'gank' is good and I still fully support that but we've already seen CCP remove the Chrome sharpshooter skill because such a base level bonus was braking balance by pushing weapons outside of their intended battlefield roles, a raw damage bonus could very well do the same. Adding extra reload is likely the best option but the amount would have to be sufficient to provide a worthwhile increase to the balance of outgoing dps. This keeps the Assault line from breaking balance on weapons while increasing their ability to make any (non-heavy) weapon preform better than the other classes can manage with the same gun.

Further considerations as they come (and again +1 to this thread, good show )
Cross

If I had to choose how my logi would function, it would be as follows:

1. Equipment Bonus
I think each logi suit should have a plus to an individual type of equipment (similar to how EVE e-war ships specialize in something specific).

Of course, there is some equipment that is more universally used than others (nanohives and nanite injectors come to mind), but this is where I hope CCP lowers SP requirements a tad so that the idea of speccing into a second logi suit is not unheard of or insane. So, as of right now, we have 4 equipments (I will not consider prox and RE for this although if I had to assign one to it, considering Minnie's revolutionary history, I would give it to them). So, Gallente plus to active scanner range or effectiveness, Caldari plus to nanohive nanites (not +10%, but +5%), Amarr plus to repair tool, Minmatar plus to nanite range (allowing a minnie logi to rez someone from a bit further out)


2. Flat Bonus
I think the bonus to all logi suits should be -5% fitting requirements to all equipment. Conversely, slightly raise the fitting requirements on the equipment. This would also allow some assault or scout suits to carry more than one equipment (if CCP decides they want assaults with two equip slots), but to do so would hamper fitting in some way.]


3. Logi Buffer Tank
This will probably drive people nuts, but I'll suggest it anyway. No logi suit should have any type of damage increase or direct combat effectiveness boosted, i.e., range, damage, cooldown, etc. Also (here we go), no logi suit should have any type of additional tanking ability, i.e., no active tanking bonus, no passive bonus, etc. Instead, logi should have a buff of base EHP. Caldari should have the most shields, Amarr should have the most overall and somewhat equal on shields and armor, Gallente should have the most armor, and Minmatar should have the least EHP but incresaed speed/strafe goes with the "speed tanking" principle.

I want the focus of the suit to be the equipment. Allow modules to be what they are, a way of customizing each logi suit, but at the same time, making NOT using equipment a waste of logi suit effectiveness.


4. Repair Bonus Removal
No suit should have an innate armor repair bonus (hence my suggestion to remove them). Armor repairers (local or third-party) should be the only means of armor repair. A well-coordinated squad will not waste a low slot on 1 or 2 HP slow gain. Rather, they will have a repping logi with them to take care of topping off for further engagements.


5. Personal Thoughts and Expectations
These are my personal thoughts on my logi suit choice. I chose Minmatar because I like the idea of fast hacking and a little extra speed. But, I regret my decision. First, my speed is not so great that it allows me to move around all that efficiently, and second, more often than not, I'm too busy rezzing healing then to be the hacker once we overtake a point. I find myself using the suit more for logi then point blitzing.

With my suggested changes, I would still be somewhat combat capable, but not as much as the assault or heavy which should have a direct combat bonus in my opinion.


Since I am no expert on assault, scout, or heavy, I'll let others choose this. But I do know what I want and expect from a logi, and I have not received that in Uprising. I want to be better with equipment than those around me. I will say, I always envisioned logi to have the second most EHP off the base suit stats (behind heavy of course) and the assault suits to be the active tankers (although why a gallente and amarr assault suits have a bonus to shield recharge is beyond me).

I don't like the stats for minmatar scout - that melee/ nova bonus is useless. Sure some ppl are enjoying using nova knife because it's more useful than before but it's still an hugely underpowered weapon, don't even want to talk about melee. +10% bonus to radius for gallente scout offers a much more palpable advantage. To make it fair, give minmatar scout +5% per level boost to side arm weapons period - don't limit it to the nova knife.

Otherwise, an excellent post.

Forget racial bonuses we need more racial weapons , gear , vehicles

Not that my opinion matters, but I like it. Makes much more sense then what we have now, it's well thought out and sounds well balanced. I'd vote for it.

Maybe point this thread out to the CPM's to get CCP's take on the proposed changes?

I would also change slot layouts entirely. logis they are not meant to be flexible, they are meant to be durable and carry around equipment to provide logistic. flexibility was originally meant to be the assaults domain.

I would give logis low amount of slots and assaults hi amount of slots (basically the other way around it currently is), change the PG/CPU accordingly and increase their base HP. that way they do what they are supposed to be, carry around equipment and be tough as nails. they would be still able to fit a few modules but would not be able to stack them excessively. the assault on the other hand would be able customize the fit to their needs (either alot of tank mods or damage mods or a mix of both).

If the Amarr Heavy Bonus is 2% dropsuit shield and armour increase per level, what will the other racial Heavy Bonuses be?

Minmatar: Speed?
Gallente: Damage?
Caldari: Range?

I didn't read all seven pages... but please don't kill logis by removing the EHP bonus... esp if assault gets 10% damage.

All logis should have an EHP bonus.

Logi Bonus: 5% CPU/PG reduction per level
Caldari: 5% Shield extenders
Gallente: 5% armor plating
amarr: 3%/3% shield/armor
minmatar: 2%/2% shield/armor

Something like the above here would make much more sense.. logis are slow and inherently weaker... give them the option to go all out hp, since we will be sacrificing 10% damage + combat oriented bonuses anyways.

all im gonna say is... if they give cal logis that worthless nanohive bonus, then they better offer a respec.

Cal Logi is not OP... use it in PC and you'll find it barely holds it own.

If anything the other logi classes are UP.

Or if you insist we recieve worthless equipment bonuses, then we need at least equal base hp to assault suits.

Otherwise logis are just free WPs to assaults.

Not sure why you guys are trying to adjust the bonuses all around and still keep the minmatar assault with the worst bonus in the game.

TBH to stay true to the minmatar assault specialty it should have a 5% bonus to stamina/stamina recovery per lvl. That would be a bonus that the suit could actually use. A bonus to mag size for sidearms is perhaps one of the most worthless bonuses in the game.

Making +1 rep the Gallente bonus really makes the Amarr bonus useless. Well, not useless, but blatantly UP. For the Amarr bonus to be equal to the Gallente one, you'd need 4x complex reppers. Anything less and it's just a straight up worse bonus, and there's only 3 low slots. Amarr logis already gets f--ked with the sidearm slot (ostensibly the Amarr logi's differentiating factor) and 3rd equipment slot not being available until proto level, don't add this too.

Oh LOL I didnt see that. Probably because its so similar......

That would make that bonus really good........perhaps better than any of the other bonuses so it might be too strong of a bonus actually then. Not that I would complain mind you but for balancing purposes an extra 25% clip to all handheld weaponry means assault scrambler rifles with 90 rounds in a single Mag. Personally I think the stamina bonus would be better and more inline with the minmatar racial philosophy.

I just want my new heavies suits

shield recharge delay reduction?

Injector effectiveness?

recharge delay reduction is the only viable for caldari
it like the Amarr one, but with shields

Any predictions on what you think the new logi bonuses will be?

They've already said it'll be equipment based bonuses...

So something like:

Caldari: Nanohives bonus
Gallente: Rep Tool?
Amarr: Drop Uplinks
Minmatar: Scanner maybe?

Man I'm going to be heart broken if/when they take my hack bonus. That thing is amazing.

The only bonus I wonder about is why the minja scout gets a bonus for caldari weponary. Nova knives are caldari afterall. Toud think thed give the minis tgeir own knives .

I think there should be a medic suit designed for specific equipment so that the logistics can have general equipment bonuses. I rarely use my repper on my Minmatar unless I'm babysitting a heavy.

-1

Are scouts just there to look pretty as floor mats?


Scouts do infarct exist in the game and should function as the team dividers through ewar. Currently we suffer by having to act like wannabe assaults but without the tools.

Consider the following,

Medium suits make better snipers by having the hp to survive a counter snipe and by having much higher spike damage by having more cpu/pg and slots for damage mods.

Medium suits can also with slots refocus themselves to on par with scout sprinting speeds and function in cqc with less risk than scouts, scouts can do it cheaper but with a higher death count.

Being able to passively detect someone within 10 to 20 meters does nothing for our wps and very little for our survivability. Common AR killing range is 60 meters, though I guess nova knife users should be wary now right?


Scout racials need two of the following characteristics, high spike damage or ewar effectiveness. And if you noticed I said ewar effectiveness not cpu/pg reductions because scouts will never be able to close the gap with the other suits.

Cal Scout: % to effectiveness of noise inducing equipment and ECCM (ewar resistance)
This scout would function by creating false information or by cutting off real information of which wps would be earned from it.

Ama Scout: % capacitor equipment effectiveness

These would be items that would drain shields and give it to the A.Scout, or would disrupt enemy weapons systems,


Min Scout: % bonus to Tackling equipment
The Min being one of thy fastest suits being able to reduce the speed of other suits by either slowing them to crawl and aiming speeds. This would allow the suit to wreck the effected afterwards.

Gal Scout: % strength stealth and detection modules

Self explanatory but essentially it benefit from all its low slots being able to customize and get more out of each modules

Vision will not be shared by passive scans or line of sight from what I read on it, it will not light them up on tacnet, only the active scanners and even then only to your squad mates.