Dude, trust me, the Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle does not need anymore damage and I use it religiously.

or you want 90+ dmg TARs? I call bias in here.

I've seen the idea of buffing other suits as opposed to completely nerfing logi posted as a response in a few threads, I'm glad it's getting it's own topic because I think it's the way to go.

On the topic of the specific bonuses in the OP, If you look at the current assault bonuses they are divided between tank and gank. We get the 5% per level shield repair and a weapon based skill. The bonuses proposed vary in that the blanket damage boost provides more gank but some of the suits get tank and some get gank. Furthermore, several of the skills double up on bonuses from other skills such as armor repair efficacy.

Why do we have class bonuses at all? My assault class bonus doesn't stack or apply to other suits, it is more like a racial bonus that happens to be the same across races, the same thing applies to the logistics bonus. While armor repair is a sensible bonus to give to the logistics class and I approve it doesn't seem sensible to give a linear bonus to suits whose armor values vary so much.

I really think we should split the blanket assault skill into separate race assault skills with each suit getting specific bonuses to tank and gank. The logi class skill should keep its armor rep but make it +1% of base armor repaired per level rather than just +1 so that the non-shield logis get as much benefit from it.

If the Caldari logi is losing its extender bonus I'm not sure the assault needs it to achieve balance, the base stats support keeping the shield repair bonus as this saves you from having to fit a crippling shield booster to service the enormous amount of shield you will have. The reload skill also makes sense for a long range/sniping race and it translates well to other situations. Most of the balance here is about bringing the Caldari logi into line with this suit and removing its extender bonus achieves a lot of that already. If people still consider a reload speed buff UP I'd recommend recoil reduction for hybrid weapons as that seems a good ranged buff that is a bit stronger.

I also think that a speed penalty modifier for the Gallente suits make more sense than an efficacy bonus. Armor rep is fitted in proportion to armor HP, active rep doesn't really put enough of a dent in enemy dps for it to be your primary tank. You still need a lot of passive armor HP and this pushes the Gallente assault towards the heavy suit in terms of performance. We should be giving it -10% armor plate speed penalty per level. I know this pushes it more towards passive buffer but active tanking doesn't translate well to Dust. While we are getting ferroscale plates eventually I think that keeping full armor plates and their higher HP bonus competitive for armor tanking races is necessary, partly because ferroscale will be implemented. For gank a hybrid weapon damage buff fits nicely here but at a lower rate of gain to keep it in line with other races' bonuses.

As far as the Minmatar assault suit is concerned the clip size bonus is an odd one. It makes sense to some degree but percentage based clip size bonuses scale weirdly, especially for a race who vary between small clip weapons like the mass driver and flaylock pistol and large clip weapons like the SMG. Splash damage radius bonus doesn't make sense (not all Minmatar weapons have splash), ROF increase doesn't make sense (too OP for machine guns). I'll leave this one up to you guys. With few low slots and built in armor rep this speed suit would probably get the most out of a bonus to shield regulator fitting to further incentivize playing as a fast hit and run style suit.

I already like the Amarr weaponry bonus and would agree that it should be left the same. An armor resistance boost would fit well here as it has the advantage of increasing eHP with less need for rep, as befits the more independent medium frame suit.

As far as the specific logi, scout, and heavy bonuses go I don't play as those roles enough to make any substantial suggestions.

Dude, trust me, the Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle does not need anymore damage and I use it religiously.

I think the assault damage bonus should be changed to 15%.
So logis who want to have the same damage output, need to use two slots.

NO

If anyting reduce their reload speed or spread, adding damage into an already regular class its just stupid. Hell even increasing ammo clips by 5% per level on assault sounds more balanced.

or you want 90+ dmg TARs? I call bias in here.

+1 to thread

Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair tool rate increase per level-1 to this

Such a bonus has several flaws. It flattens the rep tools values by benefiting the Core tool more on balance and distorting the comparative effects/values of the other reppers.
Until CCP full converts repair tool WP earnings to a granular HP based system this bonus will lower the potential WPs earned by reducing the cycles/time required to make those repairs.
It gimps the Amarr suit which is already slower and possessing fewer slots thus struggling with survivability even in it's present state.

In addition it promotes the false assumption that durability is somehow outside the role of the Logi. I've been playing Logi since closed (as I'm sure you'll remember we've conversed in several threads along the way ), and providing support for my squad has never been an issue for me, for that matter WP earnings haven't been much of an issue either the two things which have consistently been issues throughout all the builds are
A) Mobility
B) Survivability

Mobility makes sense, Logi have a lot of gear and less direct need to flank, strafe etc than do the Scout or Assault roles. So while I do cap those skills ASAP most builds I don't begrudge this limitation, it comes with the territory.

Survivability however is another matter, eHP is vastly important to a Logi. As a rule (a few specific Uprising Cal Logi suit builds aside) Logi lack both the dps and speed of either the assault or the scout, furthermore much of our work calls for us to be taking shots on behalf of wounded or downed comrades while getting them to cover and back into fighting form.
Add to that the new "shoot me" yellow of logi ships and suits and things have just gotten even more dicey (which is still true even ignoring the brokenly OP TAR). A Logi can't do anything for the squad if that Logi is dead, the repair bonus helps keep a Logi alive but doesn't give the ability to soak sustained damage that a Heavy possesses.

The current bonus to the self repper mod is both the most role/tactically valuable for the Amarr Logi, I searched very extensively prior to spec'ing that the bonus was to self repping not the repair tool. As it stands the Amarr racial skill is an asset on the field which helps mitigate my greatest challenge changed to a repair tool buff it becomes something I wouldn't spec into until after hitting full proto on all my fits and every other Logi suit.

I vehemently oppose the idea of that as a change.

0.02 ISK
Cross

bump / additional consideration

The Cal Logi suit bonus type shouldn't be changed (having some survivability is most certainly in line with being a hot zone medic) the Cal Logi suit bonus amount on the other hand is another matter. I am still unconvinced that it's actually out of line with the Assault suits but it certainly looks to over-preform the rest of the Logi line.

As to the Assault class bonus, upon reflection doing something to vicariously increase the dps output rather than directly increasing the raw damage seems like a better fit. Having the net effect of giving the Assault suits more 'gank' is good and I still fully support that but we've already seen CCP remove the Chrome sharpshooter skill because such a base level bonus was braking balance by pushing weapons outside of their intended battlefield roles, a raw damage bonus could very well do the same. Adding extra reload is likely the best option but the amount would have to be sufficient to provide a worthwhile increase to the balance of outgoing dps. This keeps the Assault line from breaking balance on weapons while increasing their ability to make any (non-heavy) weapon preform better than the other classes can manage with the same gun.

Further considerations as they come (and again +1 to this thread, good show )
Cross

If I had to choose how my logi would function, it would be as follows:

1. Equipment Bonus
I think each logi suit should have a plus to an individual type of equipment (similar to how EVE e-war ships specialize in something specific).

Of course, there is some equipment that is more universally used than others (nanohives and nanite injectors come to mind), but this is where I hope CCP lowers SP requirements a tad so that the idea of speccing into a second logi suit is not unheard of or insane. So, as of right now, we have 4 equipments (I will not consider prox and RE for this although if I had to assign one to it, considering Minnie's revolutionary history, I would give it to them). So, Gallente plus to active scanner range or effectiveness, Caldari plus to nanohive nanites (not +10%, but +5%), Amarr plus to repair tool, Minmatar plus to nanite range (allowing a minnie logi to rez someone from a bit further out)


2. Flat Bonus
I think the bonus to all logi suits should be -5% fitting requirements to all equipment. Conversely, slightly raise the fitting requirements on the equipment. This would also allow some assault or scout suits to carry more than one equipment (if CCP decides they want assaults with two equip slots), but to do so would hamper fitting in some way.]


3. Logi Buffer Tank
This will probably drive people nuts, but I'll suggest it anyway. No logi suit should have any type of damage increase or direct combat effectiveness boosted, i.e., range, damage, cooldown, etc. Also (here we go), no logi suit should have any type of additional tanking ability, i.e., no active tanking bonus, no passive bonus, etc. Instead, logi should have a buff of base EHP. Caldari should have the most shields, Amarr should have the most overall and somewhat equal on shields and armor, Gallente should have the most armor, and Minmatar should have the least EHP but incresaed speed/strafe goes with the "speed tanking" principle.

I want the focus of the suit to be the equipment. Allow modules to be what they are, a way of customizing each logi suit, but at the same time, making NOT using equipment a waste of logi suit effectiveness.


4. Repair Bonus Removal
No suit should have an innate armor repair bonus (hence my suggestion to remove them). Armor repairers (local or third-party) should be the only means of armor repair. A well-coordinated squad will not waste a low slot on 1 or 2 HP slow gain. Rather, they will have a repping logi with them to take care of topping off for further engagements.


5. Personal Thoughts and Expectations
These are my personal thoughts on my logi suit choice. I chose Minmatar because I like the idea of fast hacking and a little extra speed. But, I regret my decision. First, my speed is not so great that it allows me to move around all that efficiently, and second, more often than not, I'm too busy rezzing healing then to be the hacker once we overtake a point. I find myself using the suit more for logi then point blitzing.

With my suggested changes, I would still be somewhat combat capable, but not as much as the assault or heavy which should have a direct combat bonus in my opinion.


Since I am no expert on assault, scout, or heavy, I'll let others choose this. But I do know what I want and expect from a logi, and I have not received that in Uprising. I want to be better with equipment than those around me. I will say, I always envisioned logi to have the second most EHP off the base suit stats (behind heavy of course) and the assault suits to be the active tankers (although why a gallente and amarr assault suits have a bonus to shield recharge is beyond me).

I don't like the stats for minmatar scout - that melee/ nova bonus is useless. Sure some ppl are enjoying using nova knife because it's more useful than before but it's still an hugely underpowered weapon, don't even want to talk about melee. +10% bonus to radius for gallente scout offers a much more palpable advantage. To make it fair, give minmatar scout +5% per level boost to side arm weapons period - don't limit it to the nova knife.

Otherwise, an excellent post.

Due to the flak I have received so far regarding the much smaller 10% bonus, I think this idea is out the window.

Forget racial bonuses we need more racial weapons , gear , vehicles

I think I'm finally satisfied with these bonuses. Anyone have any objections now, or have we finally reached the sweet point?

Not that my opinion matters, but I like it. Makes much more sense then what we have now, it's well thought out and sounds well balanced. I'd vote for it.

Maybe point this thread out to the CPM's to get CCP's take on the proposed changes?

So, just to get this straight, you think we should completely remove class bonuses and give two racial bonuses per suit? Personally, I wasn't looking to re-write the entire passive bonus system, as I don't see any huge errors with the current system, even if it is a little iffy lore-wise.

To the +1% armor repair for logi's, I actually don't see how this would help the low-armor logi's more than the high armor, seeing as it would actually give a larger bonus to Min, Amarr, and Gal then they currently have, and give even less to the Cal than current.

I would also change slot layouts entirely. logis they are not meant to be flexible, they are meant to be durable and carry around equipment to provide logistic. flexibility was originally meant to be the assaults domain.

I would give logis low amount of slots and assaults hi amount of slots (basically the other way around it currently is), change the PG/CPU accordingly and increase their base HP. that way they do what they are supposed to be, carry around equipment and be tough as nails. they would be still able to fit a few modules but would not be able to stack them excessively. the assault on the other hand would be able customize the fit to their needs (either alot of tank mods or damage mods or a mix of both).