The solution would be giving an option to consumers to keep what you have and no SP/AUR reset or reset both SP and Aurum and you start over.

Either way when you log in you have to a check a box that agrees to the new terms and relinguishes there liability.

Every one gets a nice bonus from ccp and the issue goes away.

Not sure there is an answer everyone will like.

We have been getting a lot of questions about Skill Point resets lately. In order to help everyone find this information, here is CCP's official stance on resetting skill points.

We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic.

Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them?

One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made.

Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides.

"Both sides?"

Meaning "players" and "CCP?"

Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides.

This punishes paying customers by making them choose between keeping their progress (like the non-paying customers) and only receiving half of the Merc Pack they purchased, or getting the Merc Pack they paid for but being screwed out of all progress they've made in-game.

Clearly the point of such an endeavor would be to hold our SP hostage to get us to relinquish our request to receive the entire Merc Pack.

If CCP goes this route I won't touch another product of theirs again

"Both sides?"

Meaning "players" and "CCP?"

Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides.

No.

The two sides are:

Side 1: The pro-refund crowd of players.

Side 2: The anti-refund crowd of players.

Aurum amplifies sp and asset gains, it isn't 100%

So that's punishing people because ccp can't keep promises.

Like I said in the other thread, you logic is so bad.

Maybe if ccp could remove all BONUS SP and aur items bought that would be a viable approach. As well as the ability to buy the aur BPOs at the reduced cost (maybe make it a 1 week sale after the reset)

There are plenty of other solutions to look at:

Give players who were promised future products to the value of a full merc pack non-AUR/booster items to the value of a merc pack.

A full SP refund for everyone, coupled with a merc pack for those purchased under those terms. Players who receive this merc pack have the SP which can be directly tied to their merc pack purchase deducted from their total.

CCP actually don't break any of their promises and on commercial release players are given another merc pack if they bought it under an agreement that said they could have another.


...trying to find a solution based on "oh, well this SEEMS fair" while disregarding the technical details of the issue isn't a good approach.

Who cares? It's an FPS. Come home from work, turn it on, and start shooting.


PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEWPEWPEWPEW

Who cares? It's an FPS. Come home from work, turn it on, and start shooting.


PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEWPEWPEWPEW

You guys didn't buy from CCP, you bought from Sony... who reserves the right to change their Terms of Service without telling you.

Or you could buy from Gamestop, I believe they have yet to fix the item's description.

Changing terms for new sales does not change terms of sales already made.

They didn't change the term on the sale, they changed the terms on the product.

I approve.

The folks who want a refund but also want to keep everything they bought with it have more greed than logic.

Any refund would be contingent upon surrendering the product.

Who would consider asking for a refund on a car and demanding that they get to keep it?
I mean really? Who in their right mind thinks a business can operate this way?

So if someone wants to force a refund, let them. But then they return everything they purchased with that Aurum.
That means a wipe of all boosted SP and all BPO's and any reminding BPC's.

They didn't change the term on the sale, they changed the terms on the product.

They didn't change the term on the sale, they changed the terms on the product.

It still doesn't change the terms of your product after the fact.

Point in case:

I bought an apple iPhone 4 on release and got a warranty with it. That warranty covered water damage. About 7 months later they changed the terms and removed water damage coverage.
About a year later I dropped my phone in my horses water tub.
Apple refused to replace my phone because they didn't cover water damage anymore.
I sued them, and got a new iPhone 4 and court costs paid.

Why? Because WHEN YOU BUY THE ITEM YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS. If the terms change, no matter how long after, the terms you agreed to at point of purchase remain the same.

And trust me, apples legal department can run circles around CCPs.

It's "case in point" and that's not the same thing as this. That was a warranty, not a product.

Personally, I don't think it's worth fighting over. That being said, if you want a refund and are willing to accept a potential complete character/SP wipe (for everyone), then I have no reason to argue.

Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides.

Legally speaking, a warranty is a type of product.

Poor wording on my part, forgot to include the rest of my point. The Warranty includes a clause that the terms may change and the consumer agrees to that. A separate agreement would be required for the product.

It's "case in point" and that's not the same thing as this. That was a warranty, not a product.

Question, if the community had a choice between a total reset for everyone and an AUR reset for everyone, why would they pick the total reset? How does CCP honoring their agreement hurt anyone?

Just Reset Everything

While there will be a mix of how people ran boosters the solution is simple.

CCP should take away the extra .5 SP players have made with boosters.
Players keep the Pre-booster SP.
CCP refunds ALL purchases.

It's not perfect, but CCP screwed up so there is no perfect solution. This way contractually fulfills the refund and keeps us from all getting completely reset back to 0 because of a few that feel CCP owes them.

EXAMPLE

Player A - 4 Million SP
-Never purchased AUR/Merc Packs (therefore never ran boosters)

Player B - 6 Million SP
-Purchased AUR/Merc Packs (ran both passive and active hense he made 1.5x player A)

SOLUTION

1. Take away the extra .5 SP that player B has made off of boosters = 2 million in this example
2. Refund player B's AUR/Merc Packs
2. Give both player A and B the ability to respec their SP any way they want

i hope this is clear

Both player A and B would be given 4 Million SP to respec and player B would have AUR/Merc Pack refunded

Greed huh? Who is the greedy one in truth? The person who wants all of what they paid for? Or the person who wants another person not to get what they paid for? It doesn't hurt you at all, this is entirely an issue between early adopters (and current gamestop customers) and CCP. At the end of the day there are plenty who can afford to buy more anyway. This is only about making a few people feel better because they had to pay more to do it.

Irony alert, people are promoting pay to win as a way to preserve fairness!

1. I know what I said.

2. A warranty is a product.

Yes, I know a warranty is a product. I meant to say the warranty, not the product.

Greed huh? Who is the greedy one in truth? The person who wants all of what they paid for? Or the person who wants another person not to get what they paid for?

Terms of purchase and terms of use are separate. Terms of purchase can't be changed after the fact, and include the advertising text used to sell the product at the time of purchase. If the text in the item description in the PS Store included reference to something, that particular inclusion is a legal obligation for the seller. When purchasing - BEFORE agreeing to terms of use, the terms of purchase included mention of the Aurum and items being reset at the commercial release.

That being said, I had a suggestion in another thread which I think will be the best of both worlds.

No SP reset. No ISK reset. No Booster reset. Full refund of all purchased non-Booster gear on commercial release.

This means EVERYTHING you own other than Boosters is sold back to the store at cost price. If you bought an item that wasn't a Booster with AUR, you get back the amount of AUR you spent on it. If you bought something that wasn't a booster with ISK, you get the ISK back. Boosters that were purchased as part of a game pack AREN'T refunded, but you keep all your SP, so you still have the EFFECT of that Booster. Any items awarded by these packs are refunded.

People who have been farming ISK don't get penalised by a reset. People who bought the Merc Pack and were advised they'd have all their stuff reset get it. People who spent Aurum on Boosters don't have to be reset and have to re-use their Boosters.

Best of all worlds, imo.

The original "refund at commercial release" part was under the assumption that there would be another reset at release. We now know there won't be one, therfore those people did get what they paid for. What we have no is people trying to take an advantage of a technicality, kind of like AFK farmers.

Lets assume that OB was CR, that was the 22nd and the last reset was the 10th If I remember right. I would bet you 10 mill ISK that if that had been the case people would be complaining that they didn't get their Aurum back on the 22nd, even though they got it back on the 10th.

CCP has already honored the spirit of the agreement, now people are just trying to take an advantage of a technicality.

I agree with Maken about removing the booster part of peoples SP and just giving them the refund, if they want it.

Terms of purchase and terms of use are separate. Terms of purchase can't be changed after the fact, and include the advertising text used to sell the product at the time of purchase. If the text in the item description in the PS Store included reference to something, that particular inclusion is a legal obligation for the seller. When purchasing - BEFORE agreeing to terms of use, the terms of purchase included mention of the Aurum and items being reset at the commercial release.

That being said, I had a suggestion in another thread which I think will be the best of both worlds.

No SP reset. No ISK reset. No Booster reset. Full refund of all purchased non-Booster gear on commercial release.

This means EVERYTHING you own other than Boosters is sold back to the store at cost price. If you bought an item that wasn't a Booster with AUR, you get back the amount of AUR you spent on it. If you bought something that wasn't a booster with ISK, you get the ISK back. Boosters that were purchased as part of a game pack AREN'T refunded, but you keep all your SP, so you still have the EFFECT of that Booster. Any items awarded by these packs are refunded.

People who have been farming ISK don't get penalised by a reset. People who bought the Merc Pack and were advised they'd have all their stuff reset get it. People who spent Aurum on Boosters don't have to be reset and have to re-use their Boosters.

Best of all worlds, imo.

You're really arguing that getting these items in a beta with only a small sliver of the game playable and probably AT LEAST 6 more months before the game launches is "in the spirit" of getting these items at launch?

Simple solution:

CCP honors the terms of the merc pack and gives the people who purchased the Merc Pack the items in the Merc Pack at "commercial release". This is an agreement between CCP and their paying customers. Whether it satisfies the "I don't want the people who paid to get the thing they purchased" crowd or not is really irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. If you wanted a Merc Pack, you should have bought one, if you didn't, then what's the problem?

We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic.

And what problem do you have with giving up any boosted SP? CCP only said they wouldn't fully reset SP, not that they wouldn't take parts of it away.


As long as they don't put you back at 0, they technically haven't lied.

And what problem do you have with giving up any boosted SP? CCP only said they wouldn't fully reset SP, not that they wouldn't take parts of it away.


As long as they don't put you back at 0, they technically haven't lied.

And what problem do you have with giving up any boosted SP? CCP only said they wouldn't fully reset SP, not that they wouldn't take parts of it away.


As long as they don't put you back at 0, they technically haven't lied.

Seems like a complicated way of fixing a simple problem

Many people spent their stuff from the Merc Pack assuming that it would be refunded at launch

I don't have any problem giving back boosted SP if I get my booster back. I just don't see why it's necessary. Seems like a complicated way of fixing a simple problem, and one that the only purpose of is to say "nanny nanny boo boo" to paying customers.

Furthermore, this issue STILL hasn't been officially clarified by CCP. Many people spent their stuff from the Merc Pack assuming that it would be refunded at launch. If CCP would communicate with the players about this it would really clear this up.

We all know what they say about assumptions.

There is a problem with this statement. The problem is not simple.

Here's why it's necessary:

Player A buys a merc pack and uses a passive booster and get x amount of SP because of it. Player B doesn't buy a merc pack and doesn't use a booster.

Player A is refunded his merc pack, keeps his SP and uses another booster to get another x amount of SP. This brings his total SP to that of Player B's + 2x.

Again, I don't really care, but if you want things to all be square then gained SP needs to be taken away as well. I'm not sure that is even possible, so a total reset seems more likely. This isn't the only reason, but it's the general idea.

I think assuming that a purchase agreement will be fulfilled by the seller should generally be considered an exception to the rule. If I buy a big mac from you, I ASSUME I will receive a big mac in exchange for the money I paid.

Guy buys 3 merc packs for 20 dollars each, and uses the 3 30 day boosters knowing that their won't be another reset, he then expects CCP to give him 60 dollars worth of merchandise. Seems simple to me, if somewhat illogical...

If they just got to keep the items then sure, but that much free SP? Hell no!

I don't see why this is a problem. This lone of reasoning could be applied to ANY AUR purchase. The Merc Pack purchase included the use of all items during the beta and a refund of those items at commercial release. That's what we bought. If you think that product is unfair, take it up with CCP, not me.

When a is available to everyone and is charging for in-game items, then you should reasonably expect it to be a commercial release.

the Merc pack SPECIFICALLY STATES that the items within it will be refunded at launch. That has NOTHING to do with any reset announcements that have been made. Why would someone assume that they WONT get the products they purchased? I still don't understand what crazy opposite world logic some of you guys seem to be operating under.

They can't have their cake and eat it to.

You're both doing the same thing though...

I don't see why this is a problem. This lone of reasoning could be applied to ANY AUR purchase. The Merc Pack purchase included the use of all items during the beta and a refund of those items at commercial release. That's what we bought. If you think that product is unfair, take it up with CCP, not me.

This has nothing top do with a product itself and everything to do with the SP. The SP is the issue here, no one gives a rats ass about the refund.

It's a problem because you're turning a one time purchase essentially into an investment, and anyone who didn't "invest" in it is getting screwed over. Look, the merc pack was meant to give you one set of the said items/AUR for your account. You got those items. If you want them returned to you, then you should also have to return everything they provided for you (aka SP).

Um. This is about the refund. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas that can help CCP how to properly apply the refunds if they have to.

I would opt for the second idea of doing a partial reset of SP (remove only the SP gained from boosters) and refund the AURUM paid for said boosters in addition to what else was said in the second idea of the OP.

CCP was able to properly calculate how much SP people lost during the Passive SP bug we encountered since open beta. I'm pretty sure they can figure out how much SP we gained from boosters.

Yes, but no one is trying to deny people the refund that is rightfully theirs, what people don't want is for people to get free SP. So at it's core the problem here is about the SP, not the refund itself.

Yes, but no one is trying to deny people the refund that is rightfully theirs, what people don't want is for people to get free SP. So at it's core the problem here is about the SP, not the refund itself.

Then those people should have complained when CCP announced that they weren't doing any more SP resets and this specific issue was brought up. This is how CCP has decided to go about the launch, don't penalize the paying customers among us for CCP's poor decisions.

You would still have people wanting their boosters back too on that technicality, but call that partial refund a third option and I'm good with it.

Whatever the result, I do find it stupid that others want my SP taken away because I used Merc Pack Aurum and not some other Aurum.

Aurum is Aurum, boosters are boosters, and what was offered is what was offered. The Merc Pack wasn't some special pack only available to some DUST-equivalent of BoB. Everyone had the opportunity to purchase it. Why are people whining that they're not getting Merc Pack benefits when they didn't purchase the Merc Pack? I'm not demanding the millions of SP others got over me from playing before I did.

Why do people feel so entitled to things they didn't do that others did?

Do you even know what the hell is going on here? This is about the old merc pack, not the current one. No one cares if you got the SP from a merc pack. They care if you paid for a booster, used the booster, got the booster refunded, and got to keep the effect of the booster for some reason, you then went and bought another booster.
And no, it wasn't available to everyone, only CB testers.

Do you even know what the hell is going on here? This is about the old merc pack, not the current one. Know one cares if you got the SP from a merc pack, they care if you paid for a booster, got to keep the effect of the booster, and then had the aurum from the booster back so you could bgy another one.

And no, it wasn't available to everyone, only CB testers.

But what you just described is precisely what the Merc Pack describes. Why WOULDNT we want to get our Merc pack items refunded to us at launch? That's the product we purchased. Again, if you don't like it, take it up with CCP, but don't argue that we shouldn't get it just because you think it's "unfair".

What's wrong with them receiving what they bought?

The refund was promised you, not the free SP. Quit trying to ignore the actual issue. CCP should give you your Aurum back, but they should also take any SP that you gained from the initial purchase.

One more thing.

For those of you looking for a refund...

Am I correct to assume that you are only looking for a refund of the merc pack that you bought that had the "original description of commercial release"? Or are you including the merc pack that you bought AFTER the change in the description?

If they get a refund then they didn't actualy buy it. The Merc pack included a 30 day booster, not a 30 day booster that you can use twice.

I believe you need to look up what "free" means. If it were free, wouldn't you have that SP too?

Or...perhaps they made a purchase that resulted in additional SP?

The Merc Pack included a 30 Day Booster that would be refunded to you at a later date.

Why shouldn't they get exactly what they paid for?

2 for 1 is also known as buy 1 get 1 free. They bought 1 booster, they want to get a 2nd free.

Adverb
Without cost or payment

Because they already used it and will keep the benefits from it. Go to the theaters and watch a movie, once it's finished try and get a refund so you can watch another one.

Gasp!

You mean...they would be getting precisely what they paid for!?

You're right! This is a problem!

The merc pack did not include a 2 30 day boosters, just 1. If people want the booster back, then they should give back the SP they gained from using it the first time.

The Merc Pack included a 30 day booster that would be refunded to you at a later date.

Are you perhaps confused about what a 30 day booster does?

If the pack clearly said it would be refunded upon commercial release, they have a legal and moral obligation to fulfill that part of the deal, which is something we agreed to when we paid 20 dollars. They can't just randomly decide to go back on it, that's blatantly illegal and borderline stealing.

That was before they decided this would be the last reset, it wasn't intended as some special offer. They bought 1 booster, not 2, it's a simple concept really.

Yes you are entitled to your refund, but no one promised you a free 30 day booster so you should give the SP back.

Yes, and you don't seem to be getting it. Here, let me explain it to you.

A 30 Day Booster included in the Merc Pack is an active booster that multiplies your active SP gain by 1.5x. That means if you make 1000 SP, you'd actually receive 1500 SP.

Now, once you use it up, it's gone. HOWEVER! This 30 Day Booster is to be refunded at a later date. When that happens, you get another 30 Day Booster! And guess what? This one does the same thing as the last one, which I hope you would expect! Pretty neat, huh?

Again, you seem to be ignoring what "free" means. I'm afraid I'm losing my patience and will have to ask you to refer to my previous post.

The merc pack did not include a 2 30 day boosters, just 1. If people want the booster back, then they should give back the SP they gained from using it the first time because at no point in time did they pay for a second booster.

Yes you are entitled to your refund, but no one promised you a free 30 day booster so you should give the SP back.

Commercial release was meant to include a reset, it no longer will. it was always meant to be 1 booster, not 2.

But w/e, I'm done with you.

If you eat a burger then get a refund after you ate it, then it was a free burger.

And yeah, I have no patience for you either.

What? It clearly says in the merc pack it comes with a 30 day booster, which is what makes the pack even worth it to begin with...all of which have been refunded once there was a reset.

Commercial release was meant to include a reset, it no longer will. it was always meant to be 1 booster, not 2.

But w/e, I'm done with you.

If you eat aa buya burger then get a refund after you ate it, then it was a free burger.

And yeah, I have no patience for you either.

Commercial release was meant to include a reset, it no longer will. it was always meant to be 1 booster, not 2.

But w/e, I'm done with you.

If you eat a burger then get a refund after you ate it, then it was a free burger.

And yeah, I have no patience for you either.

Regardless of their original intentions, they're still obligated to give us the entirety of what we paid for, which was clearly stated when I purchased my merc pack.

Guys, need I remind everyone here that the purpose of this thread is to collaborate in sharing ideas to address the problem? This is not the place to argue what's considered buy-one-get-one-free.

take it up with CCP. I don't understand why the decision they made has lead to you lobbying AGAINST the players and FOR CCP, when it seems to be CCP's decision that you have a disagreement with. It just doesn't make sense.

The problem appears to be several have-nots demanding those that have to not-have as well. The solution is to ignore these have-nots, no?

I just want us all to come up with ideas on how to fix this so that CCP can get an idea on what might work best to address the situation. Is that too much to ask?

Let me ask you this: What is there that needs fixing?

Which you will get once they give you the booster back, any additional SP is not what you paid for.

I don't have any problem giving back boosted SP if I get my booster back.

And you will get the booster back, but you shouldn't keep the benefits from having used it the first time.

we will not be punished for it

I just want us all to come up with ideas on how to fix this so that CCP can get an idea on what might work best to address the situation. Is that too much to ask?

An unfortunate oversight by CCP, and it certainly doesn't give them some kind of legal loophole not to honor the original conditions the merc packs were purchased under.
CCP isn't ******** enough to remove weeks of playtime for people across the board. You're then rewarding players who never used boosters, which is COMPLETELY backwards.

No, but you should be rewarded for it right?

You're right, how dare a company reward it's players for paying money and supporting them IN A CLOSED BETA, LET ALONE THE OPEN ONE.

Just 3 merc packs makes it a 60$ dollar reward. That's one big kitten reward.

There should be two options
1. Give up a portion of your SP to refund your merc pack with the 30 day booster
2. Get the merc pack back without a booster. Maybe throw in a three day booster as a gift.

Just 3 merc packs makes it a 60$ dollar reward. That's one big kitten reward.

There should be two options
1. Give up a portion of your SP to refund your merc pack with the 30 day booster
2. Get the merc pack back without a booster. Maybe throw in a three day booster as a gift.

yeah, this is what I don't get. All that needs to happen is CCP honor the terms of purchase. The end.

Just 3 merc packs makes it a 60$ dollar reward. That's one big kitten reward.

There should be two options
1. Give up a portion of your SP to refund your merc pack with the 30 day booster
2. Get the merc pack back without a booster. Maybe throw in a three day booster as a gift.

1. Serves no purpose other than punish paying customers for a stupid decision on CCP's part.
2. Does not fulfill the purchase agreement.

If they want decide to do #1 I would begrudgingly accept (and never PAY another cent to CCP again for fear of them failing to keep their **** straight again). #2 is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

paying 60 dollars in a closed beta and maybe getting a little coming back your way in the form of some extra boosters? OH LAWDY LAWD DATS GAME BREAKING PPL WHO PAY MONEY SHOULD GET SCREWED NOT REWARDED!!!!!!!!111111111111111

A little? you payed a 60 and then got 60 back, you got everything back.

CCP also isn't obligated to not partially reset you, they only said there wouldn't be a full SP reset.

A little? you payed a 60 and then got 60 back, you got everything back.

CCP also isn't obligated to not partially reset you, they only said there wouldn't be a full SP reset.

again, take it up with CCP if you don't like it. They are the ones that set it up this way, not us. We are simply asking them to honor the product they sold us. If you think it's such a great deal, you should have bought one.

CCP even said themselves they're NOT resetting or removing SP.

They only said they wouldn't bring you back to the level of a starting character. SP cuts are fair game.

I guess I'll just have to ask CCP to close this thread. I feel like we're going nowhere here.

I guess I'll just have to ask CCP to close this thread. I feel like we're going nowhere here.

@CCP Devs or GMs.

Please lock this thread. It's obvious at this point that we can't collaborate any good ideas to address the issue without this thread devolving into something else.

And wow, it's all just starting to click as to what everyone is arguing about. I thought this was about the "All AUR will be refunded on Commercial Release" or whatever it said that was on the actual merc pack screen. This is a completely different issue.

Yea, you guys gotta be kidding me. You bought a merc pack. You still have the merc pack. Didn't say two merc packs $20. You got what you paid for. Unless someone wants to tell me they knew there wouldn't be a reset on Commercial Release and you actually thought you were going to get two packs. If that's the case, and you want to actually say you thought you were buying 2 of them this is nothing but greed.

You're a damn liar and a fool if you try and tell me you thought that. It's reasonable someone didn't know about that they wouldn't be getting refunded their AUR purchases since that's what it said on the merc pack and they might not check the forums. But as for the rest of it, good luck with that.

You got what you paid for. One Merc Pack. Seriously, I seriously want someone to tell me they thought they were going to get two of them and really mean that. Back it up with something, show me your reasoning behind it.

cookies

I wasn't here, so I couldn't buy one, but that has nothing to do with this. And we are taking it up with CCP, that's what this thread is for.

Their agreement was for a refund, letting you keep the SP that resulted from the refund was never part of the deal.

I'm sorry but I don't understand the argument OP. can you simplify this? What problem is going on here?

If the pack clearly said it would be refunded upon commercial release, they have a legal and moral obligation to fulfill that part of the deal, which is something we agreed to when we paid 20 dollars. They can't just randomly decide to go back on it, that's blatantly illegal and borderline stealing.