DUST Search - Possible Solution to the Aurum Refund Debate

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Terms of purchase and terms of use are separate. Terms of purchase can't be changed after the fact, and include the advertising text used to sell the product at the time of purchase. If the text in the item description in the PS Store included reference to something, that particular inclusion is a legal obligation for the seller. When purchasing - BEFORE agreeing to terms of use, the terms of purchase included mention of the Aurum and items being reset at the commercial release.

That being said, I had a suggestion in another thread which I think will be the best of both worlds.

No SP reset. No ISK reset. No Booster reset. Full refund of all purchased non-Booster gear on commercial release.

This means EVERYTHING you own other than Boosters is sold back to the store at cost price. If you bought an item that wasn't a Booster with AUR, you get back the amount of AUR you spent on it. If you bought something that wasn't a booster with ISK, you get the ISK back. Boosters that were purchased as part of a game pack AREN'T refunded, but you keep all your SP, so you still have the EFFECT of that Booster. Any items awarded by these packs are refunded.

People who have been farming ISK don't get penalised by a reset. People who bought the Merc Pack and were advised they'd have all their stuff reset get it. People who spent Aurum on Boosters don't have to be reset and have to re-use their Boosters.

Best of all worlds, imo.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1805	Posted - 2013.03.27 21:53:00 - [1] - Quote Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=66130 HowDidThatTaste wrote: The solution would be giving an option to consumers to keep what you have and no SP/AUR reset or reset both SP and Aurum and you start over. Either way when you log in you have to a check a box that agrees to the new terms and relinguishes there liability. Every one gets a nice bonus from ccp and the issue goes away. Not sure there is an answer everyone will like. This may actually be a good idea for one. I didn't really think about it earlier. All this time we have been debating on whether or not CCP should either force everyone to keep what they have right now, or force everyone to reset everything. But not once did we consider the idea of making it an option, did we? Imagine: Come "commercial release" (May 6 perhaps) you log into Dust and suddenly you are greeted with a message from CCP giving you two options that you can only select once. Option 1: You get your AURUM back to your character, but you lose everything you gained including your SP, BPOs, ISK, and all other assets. The only exception to this is what you gained as a reward ('Exile' Assault Rifle BPO, 'Skinweave' Dropsuits, 'Quafe' Suits, etc.) unless you deleted those manually by deleting your character that has it. Option 2: You keep your assets, SP, ISK, and rewards, but you don't get back your AURUM. Option 1 [Pros] - The terms in which you bought the merc pack for ( AURUM refunded on commercial release) finally gets satisfied. [Cons] - You start from scratch and face the prospect of facing players who decided to go for option 2. You also nullified your previous agreement when you were in closed beta by accepting the new agreement from CCP. Option 2 [Pros] - You keep everything you worked hard for which is your assets, ISK, and SP and therefore you stay ahead of the game and avoid having to restart all over again. [Cons] - You willfully gave up any chance of getting your AURUM refunded by accepting the new agreement which nullified your previous agreement when you bought the merc pack during closed beta. Once you made the choice, you receive a second message asking "ARE YOU SURE? PLEASE REVIEW YOUR CHOICE BEFORE MAKING THIS FINAL DECISION AND MAKE SURE THE FOLLOWING IS WHAT YOU SELECTED [insert player's option here]." Once the player clicks "YES" the message closes and the one-time option goes into effect. But of course, we run into the problem of what CCP already posted earlier: Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63890&find=unread Quote: We have been getting a lot of questions about Skill Point resets lately. In order to help everyone find this information, here is CCP's official stance on resetting skill points. We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic. That said, do you folks think this is a good idea? It may mean that CCP may have to contradict this above quote they posted (like they haven't contradicted themselves already), but at least the whole debate gets settled once and for all. Or does it?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1805	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:01:00 - [2] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1805	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:06:00 - [3] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. "Both sides?" Meaning "players" and "CCP?" No. The two sides are: Side 1: The pro-refund crowd of players. Side 2: The anti-refund crowd of players.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1805	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:15:00 - [4] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. There are plenty of other solutions to look at: Give players who were promised future products to the value of a full merc pack non-AUR/booster items to the value of a merc pack. A full SP refund for everyone, coupled with a merc pack for those purchased under those terms. Players who receive this merc pack have the SP which can be directly tied to their merc pack purchase deducted from their total. CCP actually don't break any of their promises and on commercial release players are given another merc pack if they bought it under an agreement that said they could have another. ...trying to find a solution based on "oh, well this SEEMS fair" while disregarding the technical details of the issue isn't a good approach. Hmm... hard to argue, but I still need to see all other options. Besides, how can I know which option is better? It just seems that no matter what CCP does, they still get screwed. So that makes three sides to satisfy: the pro-refund, anti-refund, and CCP. Also, I'm not trying to disregard the technical details which is why I posted CCP's quote on my OP. I'm just trying to see what's the better solution. After all, my topic's title says "Possible" solution (not "definitive" solution).
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1806	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:18:00 - [5] - Quote General Sideboob wrote: Who cares? It's an FPS. Come home from work, turn it on, and start shooting. PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEWPEWPEWPEW I care.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1807	Posted - 2013.03.27 23:49:00 - [6] - Quote Hauker Due wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. While there will be a mix of how people ran boosters the solution is simple. CCP should take away the extra .5 SP players have made with boosters. Players keep the Pre-booster SP. CCP refunds ALL purchases. It's not perfect, but CCP screwed up so there is no perfect solution. This way contractually fulfills the refund and keeps us from all getting completely reset back to 0 because of a few that feel CCP owes them. EXAMPLE Player A - 4 Million SP -Never purchased AUR/Merc Packs (therefore never ran boosters) Player B - 6 Million SP -Purchased AUR/Merc Packs (ran both passive and active hense he made 1.5x player A) SOLUTION 1. Take away the extra .5 SP that player B has made off of boosters = 2 million in this example 2. Refund player B's AUR/Merc Packs 2. Give both player A and B the ability to respec their SP any way they want i hope this is clear Both player A and B would be given 4 Million SP to respec and player B would have AUR/Merc Pack refunded This actually seems logical and well thought out. I'll update my OP to include this.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1807	Posted - 2013.03.28 00:31:00 - [7] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: Winscar Shinobi wrote: 1. I know what I said. 2. A warranty is a product. Yes, I know a warranty is a product. I meant to say the warranty, not the product. Guys, I don't want my thread to be derailed by some stupid debate over the difference/similarity between warranties and products. This is not about that. This thread is about trying to collaborate together to come up with a solution. Again, don't derail my thread.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1807	Posted - 2013.03.28 00:57:00 - [8] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Terms of purchase and terms of use are separate. Terms of purchase can't be changed after the fact, and include the advertising text used to sell the product at the time of purchase. If the text in the item description in the PS Store included reference to something, that particular inclusion is a legal obligation for the seller. When purchasing - BEFORE agreeing to terms of use, the terms of purchase included mention of the Aurum and items being reset at the commercial release. That being said, I had a suggestion in another thread which I think will be the best of both worlds. No SP reset. No ISK reset. No Booster reset. Full refund of all purchased non-Booster gear on commercial release. This means EVERYTHING you own other than Boosters is sold back to the store at cost price. If you bought an item that wasn't a Booster with AUR, you get back the amount of AUR you spent on it. If you bought something that wasn't a booster with ISK, you get the ISK back. Boosters that were purchased as part of a game pack AREN'T refunded, but you keep all your SP, so you still have the EFFECT of that Booster. Any items awarded by these packs are refunded. People who have been farming ISK don't get penalised by a reset. People who bought the Merc Pack and were advised they'd have all their stuff reset get it. People who spent Aurum on Boosters don't have to be reset and have to re-use their Boosters. Best of all worlds, imo. This may work as well. After all, it is an idea. I'll update the OP.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1807	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:10:00 - [9] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Simple solution: CCP honors the terms of the merc pack and gives the people who purchased the Merc Pack the items in the Merc Pack at "commercial release". This is an agreement between CCP and their paying customers. Whether it satisfies the "I don't want the people who paid to get the thing they purchased" crowd or not is really irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. If you wanted a Merc Pack, you should have bought one, if you didn't, then what's the problem? And what problem do you have with giving up any boosted SP? CCP only said they wouldn't fully reset SP, not that they wouldn't take parts of it away. Quote: We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic. As long as they don't put you back at 0, they technically haven't lied. CCP could technically do a partial reset of SP as suggested by the second idea posted on my OP (original idea by Hauker Due). After all, CCP did say they won't do a reset that equates to a "state where they are equivalent to a newly created character". This way, no one's character starts all over again like a newly-created character. They will just adjusted based on the SP gained from boosters.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1807	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:13:00 - [10] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Seems like a complicated way of fixing a simple problem There is a problem with this statement. The problem is not simple.

Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1807	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:31:00 - [11] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Seems like a complicated way of fixing a simple problem There is a problem with this statement. The problem is not simple. Guy buys 3 merc packs for 20 dollars each, and uses the 3 30 day boosters knowing that their won't be another reset, he then expects CCP to give him 60 dollars worth of merchandise. Seems simple to me, if somewhat illogical... If they just got to keep the items then sure, but that much free SP? Hell no! the Merc pack SPECIFICALLY STATES that the items within it will be refunded at launch. That has NOTHING to do with any reset announcements that have been made. Why would someone assume that they WONT get the products they purchased? I still don't understand what crazy opposite world logic some of you guys seem to be operating under. This has nothing top do with a product itself and everything to do with the SP. The SP is the issue here, no one gives a rats ass about the refund. Um. This is about the refund. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas that can help CCP how to properly apply the refunds if they have to. I would opt for the second idea of doing a partial reset of SP (remove only the SP gained from boosters) and refund the AURUM paid for said boosters in addition to what else was said in the second idea of the OP. CCP was able to properly calculate how much SP people lost during the Passive SP bug we encountered since open beta. I'm pretty sure they can figure out how much SP we gained from boosters.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1807	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:34:00 - [12] - Quote One more thing. For those of you looking for a refund... Am I correct to assume that you are only looking for a refund of the merc pack that you bought that had the "original description of commercial release"? Or are you including the merc pack that you bought AFTER the change in the description?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1807	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:40:00 - [13] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Um. This is about the refund. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas that can help CCP how to properly apply the refunds if they have to. I would opt for the second idea of doing a partial reset of SP (remove only the SP gained from boosters) and refund the AURUM paid for said boosters in addition to what else was said in the second idea of the OP. CCP was able to properly calculate how much SP people lost during the Passive SP bug we encountered since open beta. I'm pretty sure they can figure out how much SP we gained from boosters. Yes, but no one is trying to deny people the refund that is rightfully theirs, what people don't want is for people to get free SP. So at it's core the problem here is about the SP, not the refund itself. So which idea would you recommend for this problem?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1807	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:45:00 - [14] - Quote Guys, we need more ideas.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1809	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:02:00 - [15] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: One more thing. For those of you looking for a refund... Am I correct to assume that you are only looking for a refund of the merc pack that you bought that had the "original description of commercial release"? Or are you including the merc pack that you bought AFTER the change in the description? I ask one more time.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1809	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:23:00 - [16] - Quote Guys, need I remind everyone here that the purpose of this thread is to collaborate in sharing ideas to address the problem? This is not the place to argue what's considered buy-one-get-one-free.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1809	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:30:00 - [17] - Quote Eltra Ardell wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Guys, need I remind everyone here that the purpose of this thread is to collaborate in sharing ideas to address the problem? This is not the place to argue what's considered buy-one-get-one-free. The problem appears to be several have-nots demanding those that have to not-have as well. The solution is to ignore these have-nots, no? I just want us all to come up with ideas on how to fix this so that CCP can get an idea on what might work best to address the situation. Is that too much to ask?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1809	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:48:00 - [18] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Eltra Ardell wrote: Let me ask you this: What is there that needs fixing? yeah, this is what I don't get. All that needs to happen is CCP honor the terms of purchase. The end. I know I get the feeling that CCP may have to honor the terms at one point, but what I'm trying to get across here is how CCP has to go about reimbursing people the AURUM and stuff given from the merc pack (the one with the original "commercial release" worded into it before the change). Forget about the merc packs and AUR purchased AFTER the change. I'm assuming the refund people here are referring to is the one BEFORE the change.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1809	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:57:00 - [19] - Quote I forgot to mention this: The problem is that if CCP doesn't address this properly, there may be consequences that not even the pro-refund folks had intended to occur. For example. How would the refund impact the Dust economy once it goes fully open? Remember, if all of us who paid for the "commercial release" merc pack got a refund with nothing sacrificed, how for the excess AURUM affect overall prices in a player-driven BUY-SELL market for say... UVTs, Boosters, or BPOs?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1810	Posted - 2013.03.28 03:01:00 - [20] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: King Kobrah wrote: CCP even said themselves they're NOT resetting or removing SP. They only said they wouldn't bring you back to the level of a starting character. SP cuts are fair game. That is a good point. Full resets are already out of the question. Partial resets are not.

Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1810	Posted - 2013.03.28 03:08:00 - [21] - Quote I guess I'll just have to ask CCP to close this thread. I feel like we're going nowhere here.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1812	Posted - 2013.03.28 03:25:00 - [22] - Quote @CCP Devs or GMs. Please lock this thread. It's obvious at this point that we can't collaborate any good ideas to address the issue without this thread devolving into something else.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1815	Posted - 2013.03.28 16:24:00 - [23] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: I'm sorry but I don't understand the argument OP. can you simplify this? What problem is going on here? The problem is that the players who bought the merc pack during closed beta, the pack that had the description of "refund on commercial release" or something to that effect before it was changed, feel entitled to have a refund because they purchased those merc packs with the understanding that they will be refunded the merc pack upon commercial release. And since CCP Devs have officially confirmed that we are not yet in commercial release, a refund for the merc pack that had that description at the time of purchase is in order. However, the issue includes how to account for the SP gained from boosters that were included in the packs and how the extra influx of AURUM could affect the market prices of various items such as UVT, boosters, suits, modules, etc. once the player-driven market goes live since those players also want to keep their progress. Remember, we're talking about ONLY the merc packs that had the "refund on commercial release" description before CCP changed it.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1815	Posted - 2013.03.28 16:29:00 - [24] - Quote Again, I ask the devs to lock this thread as I feel we're going nowhere here.