DUST Search - Possible Solution to the Aurum Refund Debate

Mithridates VI wrote:

Maken Tosch wrote:

Mithridates VI wrote:

Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them?

One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made.

Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides.

There are plenty of other solutions to look at:

Give players who were promised future products to the value of a full merc pack non-AUR/booster items to the value of a merc pack.

A full SP refund for everyone, coupled with a merc pack for those purchased under those terms. Players who receive this merc pack have the SP which can be directly tied to their merc pack purchase deducted from their total.

CCP actually don't break any of their promises and on commercial release players are given another merc pack if they bought it under an agreement that said they could have another.

...trying to find a solution based on "oh, well this SEEMS fair" while disregarding the technical details of the issue isn't a good approach.

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Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1805	Posted - 2013.03.27 21:53:00 - [1] - Quote Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=66130 HowDidThatTaste wrote: The solution would be giving an option to consumers to keep what you have and no SP/AUR reset or reset both SP and Aurum and you start over. Either way when you log in you have to a check a box that agrees to the new terms and relinguishes there liability. Every one gets a nice bonus from ccp and the issue goes away. Not sure there is an answer everyone will like. This may actually be a good idea for one. I didn't really think about it earlier. All this time we have been debating on whether or not CCP should either force everyone to keep what they have right now, or force everyone to reset everything. But not once did we consider the idea of making it an option, did we? Imagine: Come "commercial release" (May 6 perhaps) you log into Dust and suddenly you are greeted with a message from CCP giving you two options that you can only select once. Option 1: You get your AURUM back to your character, but you lose everything you gained including your SP, BPOs, ISK, and all other assets. The only exception to this is what you gained as a reward ('Exile' Assault Rifle BPO, 'Skinweave' Dropsuits, 'Quafe' Suits, etc.) unless you deleted those manually by deleting your character that has it. Option 2: You keep your assets, SP, ISK, and rewards, but you don't get back your AURUM. Option 1 [Pros] - The terms in which you bought the merc pack for ( AURUM refunded on commercial release) finally gets satisfied. [Cons] - You start from scratch and face the prospect of facing players who decided to go for option 2. You also nullified your previous agreement when you were in closed beta by accepting the new agreement from CCP. Option 2 [Pros] - You keep everything you worked hard for which is your assets, ISK, and SP and therefore you stay ahead of the game and avoid having to restart all over again. [Cons] - You willfully gave up any chance of getting your AURUM refunded by accepting the new agreement which nullified your previous agreement when you bought the merc pack during closed beta. Once you made the choice, you receive a second message asking "ARE YOU SURE? PLEASE REVIEW YOUR CHOICE BEFORE MAKING THIS FINAL DECISION AND MAKE SURE THE FOLLOWING IS WHAT YOU SELECTED [insert player's option here]." Once the player clicks "YES" the message closes and the one-time option goes into effect. But of course, we run into the problem of what CCP already posted earlier: Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63890&find=unread Quote: We have been getting a lot of questions about Skill Point resets lately. In order to help everyone find this information, here is CCP's official stance on resetting skill points. We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic. That said, do you folks think this is a good idea? It may mean that CCP may have to contradict this above quote they posted (like they haven't contradicted themselves already), but at least the whole debate gets settled once and for all. Or does it?
BobThe843CakeMan Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 158	Posted - 2013.03.27 21:57:00 - [2] - Quote i like this an i would keep my stuff. :) because i think they way i am now.
Mithridates VI Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 511	Posted - 2013.03.27 21:58:00 - [3] - Quote Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 999	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:00:00 - [4] - Quote This punishes paying customers by making them choose between keeping their progress (like the non-paying customers) and only receiving half of the Merc Pack they purchased, or getting the Merc Pack they paid for but being screwed out of all progress they've made in-game. Clearly the point of such an endeavor would be to hold our SP hostage to get us to relinquish our request to receive the entire Merc Pack. If CCP goes this route I won't touch another product of theirs again
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1805	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:01:00 - [5] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 999	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:04:00 - [6] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. "Both sides?" Meaning "players" and "CCP?"
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 76	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:06:00 - [7] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. "Both sides?" Meaning "players" and "CCP?" No, there are plenty of us who believe a refund is not in order, and would rather just move on.
Commercially Released Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:06:00 - [8] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. Give everyone a refund of their AUR without a reset? It's essentially rewarding early adopters who paid attention to what they're getting. The counter argument that this is "unfair" is just people who are upset for not snagging the deal while it lasted.
BobThe843CakeMan Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 158	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:06:00 - [9] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: This punishes paying customers by making them choose between keeping their progress (like the non-paying customers) and only receiving half of the Merc Pack they purchased, or getting the Merc Pack they paid for but being screwed out of all progress they've made in-game. Clearly the point of such an endeavor would be to hold our SP hostage to get us to relinquish our request to receive the entire Merc Pack. If CCP goes this route I won't touch another product of theirs again well i don't want a refund because i would be losing money as i would have repurchase all the bpos tht cost a whole lot more. So unless you want tht just leave it alone.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1805	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:06:00 - [10] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. "Both sides?" Meaning "players" and "CCP?" No. The two sides are: Side 1: The pro-refund crowd of players. Side 2: The anti-refund crowd of players.

Mithridates VI Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 513	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:07:00 - [11] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. There are plenty of other solutions to look at: Give players who were promised future products to the value of a full merc pack non-AUR/booster items to the value of a merc pack. A full SP refund for everyone, coupled with a merc pack for those purchased under those terms. Players who receive this merc pack have the SP which can be directly tied to their merc pack purchase deducted from their total. CCP actually don't break any of their promises and on commercial release players are given another merc pack if they bought it under an agreement that said they could have another. ...trying to find a solution based on "oh, well this SEEMS fair" while disregarding the technical details of the issue isn't a good approach.
Winscar Shinobi Better Hide R Die 115	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:09:00 - [12] - Quote Aurum amplifies sp and asset gains, it isn't 100% So that's punishing people because ccp can't keep promises. Like I said in the other thread, you logic is so bad. Maybe if ccp could remove all BONUS SP and aur items bought that would be a viable approach. As well as the ability to buy the aur BPOs at the reduced cost (maybe make it a 1 week sale after the reset)
Mithridates VI Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 513	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:09:00 - [13] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. "Both sides?" Meaning "players" and "CCP?" No. The two sides are: Side 1: The pro-refund crowd of players. Side 2: The anti-refund crowd of players. The pro-refund players are consumers who want exactly what they paid for. The anti-refund players don't actually get a say in whether these consumers get what CCP agreed to give them and are free to stamp their feet and express their discontent but their opinions on what is fair have no bearing on the legal agreement between CCP and the players who are entitled to products to the value of a merc pack.
Logi Bro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 986	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:10:00 - [14] - Quote CCP has said there will be no more SP resets, the only thing we are looking at is AUR. In your first choice, SP, ISK, and AUR are all reset, that's a no no.
Commercially Released Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:13:00 - [15] - Quote Winscar Shinobi wrote: Aurum amplifies sp and asset gains, it isn't 100% So that's punishing people because ccp can't keep promises. Like I said in the other thread, you logic is so bad. Maybe if ccp could remove all BONUS SP and aur items bought that would be a viable approach. As well as the ability to buy the aur BPOs at the reduced cost (maybe make it a 1 week sale after the reset) So? They paid upfront to help support development. Does it really matter if they get something as insignificant as 90 days worth of boosters back? Chances are they are going to be a long term customer and will simply buy more of other things instead. Or trade the extras away keeping the Froob competitive. There are people out there with millions of SP more than you. Why is it so important to you that they have to pay more real life cash to get the same effect? Because that's what's at stake here. How much $ spent, not how many boosters they inject.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1805	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:15:00 - [16] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. There are plenty of other solutions to look at: Give players who were promised future products to the value of a full merc pack non-AUR/booster items to the value of a merc pack. A full SP refund for everyone, coupled with a merc pack for those purchased under those terms. Players who receive this merc pack have the SP which can be directly tied to their merc pack purchase deducted from their total. CCP actually don't break any of their promises and on commercial release players are given another merc pack if they bought it under an agreement that said they could have another. ...trying to find a solution based on "oh, well this SEEMS fair" while disregarding the technical details of the issue isn't a good approach. Hmm... hard to argue, but I still need to see all other options. Besides, how can I know which option is better? It just seems that no matter what CCP does, they still get screwed. So that makes three sides to satisfy: the pro-refund, anti-refund, and CCP. Also, I'm not trying to disregard the technical details which is why I posted CCP's quote on my OP. I'm just trying to see what's the better solution. After all, my topic's title says "Possible" solution (not "definitive" solution).
General Sideboob Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 12	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:15:00 - [17] - Quote Who cares? It's an FPS. Come home from work, turn it on, and start shooting. PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEWPEWPEWPEW
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 294	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:17:00 - [18] - Quote General Sideboob wrote: Who cares? It's an FPS. Come home from work, turn it on, and start shooting. PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEWPEWPEWPEW +1
ReGnUM Public Relations Imperfects Public Relations 67	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:18:00 - [19] - Quote Just Reset Everything
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1806	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:18:00 - [20] - Quote General Sideboob wrote: Who cares? It's an FPS. Come home from work, turn it on, and start shooting. PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEWPEWPEWPEW I care.

Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 632	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:21:00 - [21] - Quote You guys didn't buy from CCP, you bought from Sony... who reserves the right to change their Terms of Service without telling you. Or you could buy from Gamestop, I believe they have yet to fix the item's description.
Commercially Released Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:23:00 - [22] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: You guys didn't buy from CCP, you bought from Sony... who reserves the right to change their Terms of Service without telling you. Or you could buy from Gamestop, I believe they have yet to fix the item's description. Changing terms for new sales does not change terms of sales already made.
Skihids The Tritan Industries 1109	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:24:00 - [23] - Quote I approve. The folks who want a refund but also want to keep everything they bought with it have more greed than logic. Any refund would be contingent upon surrendering the product. Who would consider asking for a refund on a car and demanding that they get to keep it? I mean really? Who in their right mind thinks a business can operate this way? So if someone wants to force a refund, let them. But then they return everything they purchased with that Aurum. That means a wipe of all boosted SP and all BPO's and any reminding BPC's.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 632	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:25:00 - [24] - Quote Commercially Released wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: You guys didn't buy from CCP, you bought from Sony... who reserves the right to change their Terms of Service without telling you. Or you could buy from Gamestop, I believe they have yet to fix the item's description. Changing terms for new sales does not change terms of sales already made. They didn't change the term on the sale, they changed the terms on the product.
Commercially Released Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:29:00 - [25] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Commercially Released wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: You guys didn't buy from CCP, you bought from Sony... who reserves the right to change their Terms of Service without telling you. Or you could buy from Gamestop, I believe they have yet to fix the item's description. Changing terms for new sales does not change terms of sales already made. They didn't change the term on the sale, they changed the terms on the product. Not even close...
Commercially Released Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:32:00 - [26] - Quote Skihids wrote: I approve. The folks who want a refund but also want to keep everything they bought with it have more greed than logic. Any refund would be contingent upon surrendering the product. Who would consider asking for a refund on a car and demanding that they get to keep it? I mean really? Who in their right mind thinks a business can operate this way? So if someone wants to force a refund, let them. But then they return everything they purchased with that Aurum. That means a wipe of all boosted SP and all BPO's and any reminding BPC's. Greed huh? Who is the greedy one in truth? The person who wants all of what they paid for? Or the person who wants another person not to get what they paid for? It doesn't hurt you at all, this is entirely an issue between early adopters (and current gamestop customers) and CCP. At the end of the day there are plenty who can afford to buy more anyway. This is only about making a few people feel better because they had to pay more to do it. Irony alert, people are promoting pay to win as a way to preserve fairness!
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 632	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:33:00 - [27] - Quote Commercially Released wrote: Take it up with Sony then.
Winscar Shinobi Better Hide R Die 115	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:34:00 - [28] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Commercially Released wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: You guys didn't buy from CCP, you bought from Sony... who reserves the right to change their Terms of Service without telling you. Or you could buy from Gamestop, I believe they have yet to fix the item's description. Changing terms for new sales does not change terms of sales already made. They didn't change the term on the sale, they changed the terms on the product. It still doesn't change the terms of your product after the fact. Point in case: I bought an apple iPhone 4 on release and got a warranty with it. That warranty covered water damage. About 7 months later they changed the terms and removed water damage coverage. About a year later I dropped my phone in my horses water tub. Apple refused to replace my phone because they didn't cover water damage anymore. I sued them, and got a new iPhone 4 and court costs paid. Why? Because WHEN YOU BUY THE ITEM YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS. If the terms change, no matter how long after, the terms you agreed to at point of purchase remain the same. And trust me, apples legal department can run circles around CCPs.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 427	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:34:00 - [29] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Commercially Released wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: You guys didn't buy from CCP, you bought from Sony... who reserves the right to change their Terms of Service without telling you. Or you could buy from Gamestop, I believe they have yet to fix the item's description. Changing terms for new sales does not change terms of sales already made. They didn't change the term on the sale, they changed the terms on the product. What? I'm not following what you're saying. It's simple really, the merc pack was purchased with the promise of future goods and services. CCP is obligated to provide those goods and services (or something of equal value) to those that purchased the item. This is why including statements about the future on products is monumentally stupid. Lifetime Guarantee is fine, but that's more of a marketing thing anyway.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 78	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:34:00 - [30] - Quote Personally, I don't think it's worth fighting over. That being said, if you want a refund and are willing to accept a potential complete character/SP wipe (for everyone), then I have no reason to argue.



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