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Possible Solution to the Aurum Refund Debate

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Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 999	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:00:00 - [1] - Quote This punishes paying customers by making them choose between keeping their progress (like the non-paying customers) and only receiving half of the Merc Pack they purchased, or getting the Merc Pack they paid for but being screwed out of all progress they've made in-game. Clearly the point of such an endeavor would be to hold our SP hostage to get us to relinquish our request to receive the entire Merc Pack. If CCP goes this route I won't touch another product of theirs again
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 999	Posted - 2013.03.27 22:04:00 - [2] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Why should people who bought the merc pack have to choose which one of CCP's promises get kept to them? One way they are put at a disadvantage to players who CCP didn't make the agreement with, greatly in excess of value of this AUR, the other they lose out on a purchase they made. Can you come up with a better solution? A solution that satisfies both sides. "Both sides?" Meaning "players" and "CCP?"
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1002	Posted - 2013.03.28 00:56:00 - [3] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Commercially Released wrote: Greed huh? Who is the greedy one in truth? The person who wants all of what they paid for? Or the person who wants another person not to get what they paid for? The original "refund at commercial release" part was under the assumption that there would be another reset at release. We now know there won't be one, therfore those people did get what they paid for. What we have no is people trying to take an advantage of a technicality, kind of like AFK farmers. Lets assume that OB was CR, that was the 22nd and the last reset was the 10th If I remember right. I would bet you 10 mill ISK that if that had been the case people would be complaining that they didn't get their Aurum back on the 22nd, even though they got it back on the 10th. CCP has already honored the spirit of the agreement, now people are just trying to take an advantage of a technicality. I agree with Maken about removing the booster part of peoples SP and just giving them the refund, if they want it. The "spirit" of the Merc Pack was that it was a presale of items that we would have at launch. As far as I can tell, this build (0.7) is a pale comparison of next build (0.8), and next build ISN'T the full launch product either. We've got another month of beta until next build, it's been a month and a half since the last wipe, and who knows how much longer from 0.8 to 1.0. You're really arguing that getting these items in a beta with only a small sliver of the game playable and probably AT LEAST 6 more months before the game launches is "in the spirit" of getting these items at launch?
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1002	Posted - 2013.03.28 00:59:00 - [4] - Quote Simple solution: CCP honors the terms of the merc pack and gives the people who purchased the Merc Pack the items in the Merc Pack at "commercial release". This is an agreement between CCP and their paying customers. Whether it satisfies the "I don't want the people who paid to get the thing they purchased" crowd or not is really irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. If you wanted a Merc Pack, you should have bought one, if you didn't, then what's the problem?
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:11:00 - [5] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Simple solution: CCP honors the terms of the merc pack and gives the people who purchased the Merc Pack the items in the Merc Pack at "commercial release". This is an agreement between CCP and their paying customers. Whether it satisfies the "I don't want the people who paid to get the thing they purchased" crowd or not is really irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. If you wanted a Merc Pack, you should have bought one, if you didn't, then what's the problem? And what problem do you have with giving up any boosted SP? CCP only said they wouldn't fully reset SP, not that they wouldn't take parts of it away. Quote: We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic. As long as they don't put you back at 0, they technically haven't lied. I don't have any problem giving back boosted SP if I get my booster back. I just don't see why it's necessary. Seems like a complicated way of fixing a simple problem, and one that the only purpose of is to say "nanny nanny boo boo" to paying customers. Furthermore, this issue STILL hasn't been officially clarified by CCP. Many people spent their stuff from the Merc Pack assuming that it would be refunded at launch. If CCP would communicate with the players about this it would really clear this up.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:17:00 - [6] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Many people spent their stuff from the Merc Pack assuming that it would be refunded at launch We all know what they say about assumptions. I think assuming that a purchase agreement will be fulfilled by the seller should generally be considered an exception to the rule. If I buy a big mac from you, I ASSUME I will receive a big mac in exchange for the money I paid.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:20:00 - [7] - Quote Sete Clifton wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Simple solution: CCP honors the terms of the merc pack and gives the people who purchased the Merc Pack the items in the Merc Pack at "commercial release". This is an agreement between CCP and their paying customers. Whether it satisfies the "I don't want the people who paid to get the thing they purchased" crowd or not is really irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. If you wanted a Merc Pack, you should have bought one, if you didn't, then what's the problem? And what problem do you have with giving up any boosted SP? CCP only said they wouldn't fully reset SP, not that they wouldn't take parts of it away. Quote: We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic. As long as they don't put you back at 0, they technically haven't lied. I don't have any problem giving back boosted SP if I get my booster back. I just don't see why it's necessary. Seems like a complicated way of fixing a simple problem, and one that the only purpose of is to say "nanny nanny boo boo" to paying customers. Furthermore, this issue STILL hasn't been officially clarified by CCP. Many people spent their stuff from the Merc Pack assuming that it would be refunded at launch. If CCP would communicate with the players about this it would really clear this up. Here's why it's necessary: Player A buys a merc pack and uses a passive booster and get x amount of SP because of it. Player B doesn't buy a merc pack and doesn't use a booster. Player A is refunded his merc pack, keeps his SP and uses another booster to get another x amount of SP. This brings his total SP to that of Player B's + 2x. Again, I don't really care, but if you want things to all be square then gained SP needs to be taken away as well. I'm not sure that is even possible, so a total reset seems more likely. This isn't the only reason, but it's the general idea. I don't see why this is a problem. This lone of reasoning could be applied to ANY AUR purchase. The Merc Pack purchase included the use of all items during the beta and a refund of those items at commercial release. That's what we bought. If you think that product is unfair, take it up with CCP, not me.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:22:00 - [8] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Seems like a complicated way of fixing a simple problem There is a problem with this statement. The problem is not simple. Guy buys 3 merc packs for 20 dollars each, and uses the 3 30 day boosters knowing that their won't be another reset, he then expects CCP to give him 60 dollars worth of merchandise. Seems simple to me, if somewhat illogical... If they just got to keep the items then sure, but that much free SP? Hell no! the Merc pack SPECIFICALLY STATES that the items within it will be refunded at launch. That has NOTHING to do with any reset announcements that have been made. Why would someone assume that they WONT get the products they purchased? I still don't understand what crazy opposite world logic some of you guys seem to be operating under.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:24:00 - [9] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Many people spent their stuff from the Merc Pack assuming that it would be refunded at launch We all know what they say about assumptions. I think assuming that a purchase agreement will be fulfilled by the seller should generally be considered an exception to the rule. If I buy a big mac from you, I ASSUME I will receive a big mac in exchange for the money I paid. When a is available to everyone and is charging for in-game items, then you should reasonably expect it to be a commercial release. Then CCP should inform all players that we have reached commercial release and remove the "beta" tag at the top of the screen at login. Instead, they repeatedly make it clear that they DO NOT consider this to be commercial release. They can't have their cake and eat it to.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:30:00 - [10] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: They can't have their cake and eat it to. You're both doing the same thing though... I'm the customer, they are the ones selling the product. If they want to eat the cake and have it, then shouldn't we get the same? Why should the customers be the ones getting the short end of the stick. They already have MY money. They screwed up and botched this whole ordeal with a confusing and intentionally obfuscated release schedule, and now the people who expected to get to use their purchased items for a commercially released game have had those items considered "used up" during a friggin' BETA, but somehow WE are the assholes that everyone is irritated with. It's mind boggling.

Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:35:00 - [11] - Quote Sete Clifton wrote: Baal Roo wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. This lone of reasoning could be applied to ANY AUR purchase. The Merc Pack purchase included the use of all items during the beta and a refund of those items at commercial release. That's what we bought. If you think that product is unfair, take it up with CCP, not me. It's a problem because you're turning a one time purchase essentially into an investment, and anyone who didn't "invest" in it is getting screwed over. Look, the merc pack was meant to give you one set of the said items/AUR for your account. You got those items. If you want them returned to you, then you should also have to return everything they provided for you (aka SP). no, the Merc pack was sold as a "presale" for items to be received at launch/commercial release. Use of these items in beta was presented as a "bonus" by CCP, and the terms of sale make this pretty clear. At launch/commercial release I expect to receive the product I purchased, or something of equal value. This is still the beta, it's not my fault if CCP is handling the rollout in such a **** poor way.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:40:00 - [12] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Um. This is about the refund. The point of this thread is to come up with ideas that can help CCP how to properly apply the refunds if they have to. I would opt for the second idea of doing a partial reset of SP (remove only the SP gained from boosters) and refund the AURUM paid for said boosters in addition to what else was said in the second idea of the OP. CCP was able to properly calculate how much SP people lost during the Passive SP bug we encountered since open beta. I'm pretty sure they can figure out how much SP we gained from boosters. Yes, but no one is trying to deny people the refund that is rightfully theirs, what people don't want is for people to get free SP. So at it's core the problem here is about the SP, not the refund itself. Then those people should have complained when CCP announced that they weren't doing any more SP resets and this specific issue was brought up. This is how CCP has decided to go about the launch, don't penalize the paying customers among us for CCP's poor decisions.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 01:57:00 - [13] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Eltra Ardell wrote: Whatever the result, I do find it stupid that others want my SP taken away because I used Merc Pack Aurum and not some other Aurum. Aurum is Aurum, boosters are boosters, and what was offered is what was offered. The Merc Pack wasn't some special pack only available to some DUST-equivalent of BoB. Everyone had the opportunity to purchase it. Why are people whining that they're not getting Merc Pack benefits when they didn't purchase the Merc Pack? I'm not demanding the millions of SP others got over me from playing before I did. Why do people feel so entitled to things they didn't do that others did? Do you even know what the hell is going on here? This is about the old merc pack, not the current one. No one cares if you got the SP from a merc pack. They care if you paid for a booster, used the booster, got the booster refunded, and got to keep the effect of the booster for some reason, you then went and bought another booster. And no, it wasn't available to everyone, only CB testers. But what you just described is precisely what the Merc Pack describes. Why WOULDNT we want to get our Merc pack items refunded to us at launch? That's the product we purchased. Again, if you don't like it, take it up with CCP, but don't argue that we shouldn't get it just because you think it's "unfair".
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:23:00 - [14] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Eltra Ardell wrote: Gasp! You mean...they would be getting precisely what they paid for!? You're right! This is a problem! The merc pack did not include a 2 30 day boosters, just 1. If people want the booster back, then they should give back the SP they gained from using it the first time because at no point in time did they pay for a second booster. You're right, it didn't include 2. I've gotten many more 30 day boosters so far than just 2. It included a 30 day booster for each beta reset, and one more at commercial release. I still don't understand what you aren't getting here. It's true that CCP has decided not to reset any more during the beta, but that's not our fault and it wasn't our choice. That decision on CCP's part doesn't retroactively change the purchase agreement of the Merc Pack. It was very clearly stated that we would receive all of the Merc pack items at commercial release. If they want to remove the SP we gained from the booster, then they can, but it seems silly to punish their paying customers simply because THEY have made some strange and confusing decisions about how they are handling the beta.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1004	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:26:00 - [15] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Eltra Ardell wrote: Yes, and you don't seem to be getting it. Here, let me explain it to you. A 30 Day Booster included in the Merc Pack is an active booster that multiplies your active SP gain by 1.5x. That means if you make 1000 SP, you'd actually receive 1500 SP. Now, once you use it up, it's gone. HOWEVER! This 30 Day Booster is to be refunded at a later date. When that happens, you get another 30 Day Booster! And guess what? This one does the same thing as the last one, which I hope you would expect! Pretty neat, huh? Commercial release was meant to include a reset, it no longer will. it was always meant to be 1 booster, not 2. But w/e, I'm done with you. Eltra Ardell wrote: Again, you seem to be ignoring what "free" means. I'm afraid I'm losing my patience and will have to ask you to refer to my previous post. If you eat a burger then get a refund after you ate it, then it was a free burger. And yeah, I have no patience for you either. take it up with CCP. I don't understand why the decision they made has lead to you lobbying AGAINST the players and FOR CCP, when it seems to be CCP's decision that you have a disagreement with. It just doesn't make sense.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1005	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:32:00 - [16] - Quote Eltra Ardell wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Eltra Ardell wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Guys, need I remind everyone here that the purpose of this thread is to collaborate in sharing ideas to address the problem? This is not the place to argue what's considered buy-one-get-one-free. The problem appears to be several have-nots demanding those that have to not-have as well. The solution is to ignore these have-nots, no? I just want us all to come up with ideas on how to fix this so that CCP can get an idea on what might work best to address the situation. Is that too much to ask? Let me ask you this: What is there that needs fixing? yeah, this is what I don't get. All that needs to happen is CCP honor the terms of purchase. The end.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1007	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:46:00 - [17] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: King Kobrah wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: King Kobrah wrote: we will not be punished for it No, but you should be rewarded for it right? You're right, how dare a company reward it's players for paying money and supporting them IN A CLOSED BETA, LET ALONE THE OPEN ONE. Just 3 merc packs makes it a 60$ dollar reward. That's one big kitten reward. There should be two options 1. Give up a portion of your SP to refund your merc pack with the 30 day booster 2. Get the merc pack back without a booster. Maybe throw in a three day booster as a gift. 1. Serves no purpose other than punish paying customers for a stupid decision on CCP's part. 2. Does not fulfill the purchase agreement. If they want decide to do #1 I would begrudgingly accept (and never PAY another cent to CCP again for fear of them failing to keep their **** straight again). #2 is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1007	Posted - 2013.03.28 02:55:00 - [18] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: King Kobrah wrote: paying 60 dollars in a closed beta and maybe getting a little coming back your way in the form of some extra boosters? OH LAWDY LAWD DATS GAME BREAKING PPL WHO PAY MONEY SHOULD GET SCREWED NOT REWARDED!!!!!!!!111111111111111 A little? you payed a 60 and then got 60 back, you got everything back. CCP also isn't obligated to not partially reset you, they only said there wouldn't be a full SP reset. again, take it up with CCP if you don't like it. They are the ones that set it up this way, not us. We are simply asking them to honor the product they sold us. If you think it's such a great deal, you should have bought one.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1008	Posted - 2013.03.28 03:28:00 - [19] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: And wow, it's all just starting to click as to what everyone is arguing about. I thought this was about the "All AUR will be refunded on Commercial Release" or whatever it said that was on the actual merc pack screen. This is a completely different issue. Yea, you guys gotta be kidding me. You bought a merc pack. You still have the merc pack. Didn't say two merc packs $20. You got what you paid for. Unless someone wants to tell me they knew there wouldn't be a reset on Commercial Release and you actually thought you were going to get two packs. If that's the case, and you want to actually say you thought you were buying 2 of them this is nothing but greed. You're a damn liar and a fool if you try and tell me you thought that. It's reasonable someone didn't know about that they wouldn't be getting refunded their AUR purchases since that's what it said on the merc pack and they might not check the forums. But as for the rest of it, good luck with that. You got what you paid for. One Merc Pack. Seriously, I seriously want someone to tell me they thought they were going to get two of them and really mean that. Back it up with something, show me your reasoning behind it. not only is this precisely what I expect, it's precisely what the Merc Pack stated. You get the Merc Pack items to play around with in beta, and then you get it again at release. It's not complicated.