I guess you can pat yourself on the back for how great this game is going to be with flat gear?

Here's the other side -

I killed a decent gun the other day like 3-4x times in his proto suit with a militia shotgun.

Some of you think that's worth bragging over but I think it's pretty much trash.

I'm killing a dude and I have no points whatsoever in shotguns but its just lololol on my side.

He was willing to risk something in fighting me and my squad. He GEARED to fight us. He was using the weapon he'd skilled up in.

People in militia gear and BPO assault rifles are risking nothing.

They can just keep respawning and zerging because it doesn't matter.

If you think about the implications in this for Lowsec and Nullsec it's pretty ugly.

There needs to be HARD gear checks for participating in those fights (I'd like the rewards reduced in hisec so that proto is not economical for people when there is lowsec to fight in).

I don't want to fight people that can't be bothered to RISK anything or PREPARE (ie get the SP together to get fitted in the first place).

My corp is prepared and ready to risk, are you?

I'll try and counter your argument.
- The guy you killed with a shotgun. That's not a militia vs proto argument. That's a gun balance argument. I'd say the shotty, particularly the militia shotty is a little OP. That aside, if you killed someone with a shotty, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. (either you lucky or good enough to get near him OR he was bad enough to allow you near him) Shotties are not effective at longer ranges.
-You say militia can zerg. Good for them, if it's so effective, you can slap on your militia gear and do it too. If you CHOOSE to risk isk for the advantage of using proto gear, that's your choice.

The reality is, right now, if corp A is better than corp B, and corp A uses proto gear than corp B, Corp A will win. Pretty easily. If Corp A is better, but Corp B uses better gear, Corp A still has a chance to win... meaning SKILL plays a role in Dust. (which is a FPS, in case you forgot) Either way, Corp A wins.

In prior builds, this was not the case. The team with more play time and/or money, won. (unless the "poor" team had MUCH higher skill) To say that this has something to do with risk is rediculous.

In prior builds, fits mattered A LOT more. Unless skill of players was very uneven, the team with better fits almost always won. You spend more money, you're almost GUARANTEED a win. Where exactly is the risk in that?

NOW, the gear still plays a considerable role, but SKILL matters as much if not more. My $.02

I'll try and counter your argument.
- The guy you killed with a shotgun. That's not a militia vs proto argument. That's a gun balance argument. I'd say the shotty, particularly the militia shotty is a little OP. That aside, if you killed someone with a shotty, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. (either you lucky or good enough to get near him OR he was bad enough to allow you near him) Shotties are not effective at longer ranges.
-You say militia can zerg. Good for them, if it's so effective, you can slap on your militia gear and do it too. If you CHOOSE to risk isk for the advantage of using proto gear, that's your choice.

The reality is, right now, if corp A is better than corp B, and corp A uses proto gear than corp B, Corp A will win. Pretty easily. If Corp A is better, but Corp B uses better gear, Corp A still has a chance to win... meaning SKILL plays a role in Dust. (which is a FPS, in case you forgot) Either way, Corp A wins.

In prior builds, this was not the case. The team with more play time and/or money, won. (unless the "poor" team had MUCH higher skill) To say that this has something to do with risk is rediculous.

In prior builds, fits mattered A LOT more. Unless skill of players was very uneven, the team with better fits almost always won. You spend more money, you're almost GUARANTEED a win. Where exactly is the risk in that?

NOW, the gear still plays a considerable role, but SKILL matters as much if not more. My $.02

I'll try and counter your argument.
- The guy you killed with a shotgun. That's not a militia vs proto argument. That's a gun balance argument. I'd say the shotty, particularly the militia shotty is a little OP. That aside, if you killed someone with a shotty, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. (either you lucky or good enough to get near him OR he was bad enough to allow you near him) Shotties are not effective at longer ranges.
-You say militia can zerg. Good for them, if it's so effective, you can slap on your militia gear and do it too. If you CHOOSE to risk isk for the advantage of using proto gear, that's your choice.

The reality is, right now, if corp A is better than corp B, and corp A uses proto gear than corp B, Corp A will win. Pretty easily. If Corp A is better, but Corp B uses better gear, Corp A still has a chance to win... meaning SKILL plays a role in Dust. (which is a FPS, in case you forgot) Either way, Corp A wins.

In prior builds, this was not the case. The team with more play time and/or money, won. (unless the "poor" team had MUCH higher skill) To say that this has something to do with risk is rediculous.

In prior builds, fits mattered A LOT more. Unless skill of players was very uneven, the team with better fits almost always won. You spend more money, you're almost GUARANTEED a win. Where exactly is the risk in that?

NOW, the gear still plays a considerable role, but SKILL matters as much if not more. My $.02

Edit: PS. Regarding the game being flat. I love how those who make your argument use absolutes. The game will not have flat gear. There is STILL a difference in damage AND accuracy AND capacity AND recharge times AND range, etc etc. Add to that, the fact that proto suits, allow you more cpu and pg, and allow you to add modules to tank SEVERAL HUNDRED more HP than opponents using militia gear. Yeah, seems pretty flat to me.

I think the problem is that people want to be indestructible and run god mode in proto gear.

Think about it:
When you factor SP into shields, armor, weapon dmg, etc AND the old dmg values, a new player had NO chance against a vet in proto/complex gear. This ruins the FPS side of the game.

The way it is now, skill actually plays more of a role in the game. Newer players have a chance against vets, because their skill can overcome the smaller difference the fits give you. It makes it a fun FPS in HIGHSEC, and still DOES make a difference when you have 2 players of EQUAL skill.... the one with better gear will STILL win the majority of the time. In Corp matches, you can then spend money to get every advantage possible out of your proto gear, because while expensive, the gear is being used to cash in on a contract. (many of which will be worth 10s of millions of isk.)

I don't see what's wrong with this. It naturally balances things out. Players will tend to use lower level gear for pubs/high sec, and probably will reserve the expensive stuff for matches that mean something.

Only complaint MIGHT be that the proto gear might be A LITTLE too expensive. The only change I'd like to see, is maybe a 10% reduction in advanced and proto suits/guns. That, and maybe return the militia gear to it's original values.

PS. People tend to also forget that damage is only ONE component of a weapons value, the proto weapons also tend to have higher accuracy, ammo capacity, range, better charge times, etc. Yet another reason, why we're better off now.

In conclusion:
THANK YOU CCP!!!

Thanks for stopping by and not reading the thread.

Well, i want a nerf in the ISK/SP difference between Standard, Advance and Proto things. Because no one want to spend 40ISK+ per battle just for a use a "proto weapon" who will give you the same result (all based in your skill) as an advance does. Just a waste of SP.

Also the SP difference. 1 200 000+ SP and 40 000+ ISK per battle just to have 1 or 2 more modules? Just get all the vehicles skill with those SP and snipe with a nice Gunlogi. It have no sense to spend so much SP. But meh, at least the black color is nice

The problem is, even now, people ARE running god mode with proto gear.

Take your corp for example, most of you have skilled up to proto gear, and I see a lot of you using that proto gear in pubbies. I use standard, just because I don't feel the need to spend ridiculous amounts of money and stand to gain nothing. With my standard fit(logistics, if you cared), I can tear through militias, standards, and most advanced fits with ease, but when I run into your corp members, it's like running into a brick wall. Even if I keep my AR on target and push a total of 60 rounds into their asses, it only barely cuts through their shields and barely scratches their armor. This removes the whole premise of skill>gear, because I just had the tactical smarts to sneak up behind this guy, get point blank, and then unload a full clip into his back but only ended up giving him a boo boo that he probably has a repper mod to fix.
Just leave gear as it is if you ask me, you already have your god mode.

The problem is, even now, people ARE running god mode with proto gear.

Take your corp for example, most of you have skilled up to proto gear, and I see a lot of you using that proto gear in pubbies. I use standard, just because I don't feel the need to spend ridiculous amounts of money and stand to gain nothing. With my standard fit(logistics, if you cared), I can tear through militias, standards, and most advanced fits with ease, but when I run into your corp members, it's like running into a brick wall. Even if I keep my AR on target and push a total of 60 rounds into their asses, it only barely cuts through their shields and barely scratches their armor. This removes the whole premise of skill>gear, because I just had the tactical smarts to sneak up behind this guy, get point blank, and then unload a full clip into his back but only ended up giving him a boo boo that he probably has a repper mod to fix.
Just leave gear as it is if you ask me, you already have your god mode.

You can easy kill a Proto Suit if you hit it with a full 60 clip. It's so far away from be a "god mode". If you can't kill a Proto Suit is because the guy that feel a shoot, move around and get cover, but that's the same with an advance B suit.

The worst way to play this game is going straight to red points. No one can survive if you want to play as RAMBO, with standar, advance or Proto. The best way is play cover and trying to get your enemys from behind. "Who shoots first, shoots twice".

If I take you from behind, I can kill you with a Gek as a Duvolle. If you can't take me because i play cover and I keep my distance, you won't kill me if I use a Proto Suit as an A/B suit because 1/2 modules are just like 10 bullets.

If you kill a decent player is because you take him from behind, you shoot first, or maybe you take him with some friends. But that's the same using Proto or Advance suits.

Most of the guys says "you have more modules". The best shield module is 66. If 3 guys are shooting you, 350 shield and 416 shield is the same. What's 66? 0,5 second of an elm-7?

Playing with Proto or Advance is practically the same. Now, the problem is when I die. Why do I need to feel difference between Proto and Advance just when I die?

PS: snipers kill me with 2 shot. Nice way to be GOD.

Sorry for the english. See you

You are in denial.

The gear isn't killing you, we are.

The Duvolle has a 31% damage increase per second over the standard that alone is a reason for it to be so expensive. 31% is more than than lv5 weaponry and 2 complex damage mods, then you have the people who put on damage mods and have weaponry lv with a Duvolle. So not only does it have a passive 31% increase over the standard that gap only gets even further away as you apply skills and damage mods.

For me this is enough to reason such high price for proto AR, I have not figured out the other weapons damage increase do to the lack of interest in those weapons on the forums.

If you don't believe me I will show you my logic and math to get these numbers.

i think his argument is that ur gear saved ur life
technically u are right you are killing them

what logi is sayin is that ur gear allows u to play sloppy and careless vs lower tier gear and get away with it
i.e. no risk to u or very little

lets take ur argument and take it down my lane a bit
i invest 2M+ into my suryas by ur logic anything but a proto forge/swarms or another marauder tank shouldnt be able to scratch me because im riskin more and he isnt "geared" to fight me
ur whole point on gear doesnt just pertain to dropsuits btw

also lets look at this another way
ur corp is currently the best on the game dont think anyone questions that, when u want only proto gear to stand a chance then the corp that keeps winning (urs in this case) can continuously fund these without problem which then leaves no one to challenge u or very little. Your idea kills off any competition for ur corp or at least decreases it drastically.

I want FW and Nullsec to actually be populated, if a brave corp like Mike said wants to take on a proto gear corp with adv gear they should have a fighting chance....obv if they are equally skilled its gonna come down to gear but if the adv gear corp has drastically superior tactics and skill then why should they be deemed to lose automatically? Dont u actually want competition and lots of it?

Also as mike said if a team is zergin u with standard gear u can also scale back down urself u know...if ur better FPS wise no need to rock proto vs a lower tier gear team and like Mike said if a team comes at u with **** gear and ur in better gear and they are terrible or equally skilled fps wise they will be destroyed still.


This game is suppose to be about choices ur taking away choices by only wanting ppl to play by ur rules.
But anyway we've been back an forth on this numerous times now
MMO personality vs FPS personality just not gonna see eye to eye on how big an advantage should gear give u.


PS: also what happens when a corp gets rich enough and cant get any fights in FW and Null against other proto gear...they bring their buffed gear into hisec to farm noobs next....and since its buffed they will prob not die....at least not against infantry which means hisec now becomes a farming ground with no risk involved.

buff militia was dumb
and fyi dubbs technically the standard and adv still doesnt have the same dmg

Said this many times since the nerf....

Bringing the damage closer together between the guns is fail. It totally defeats the purpose of buying adv or proto gear. They have made the GEK absolutely useless. Why spend $17K or 30 aur on a gun that has 1hp advantage over a free STD AR??

We need to stop encouraging players to stay at militia & STD gear levels. You should have all in your arsenal for every situation. If the low level guys get beat up from high leveled vets, then so what? Level up and you'll be able to do the same. If I bring a knife to a fight and you show up with a gun. I'm going back home to get my gun. I'm not going to ***** about you having a gun. If you bring out a rocket then I'm going to bring out a rocket. That's what this is about.

But forget all of that....let's talk about the skill. In the last build, gear gave you a slight advantage but if you're good, then you should still be able to tango with someone who has higher gear. It isn't god mode in the least bit. During mid Codex, I brought in a player, who's a talented fps shooter, at a time where everyone had proto weapons and heavy shielded assault suits. And he did well and has a very good KDR and climbing.

Like, I've said before....they nerfed the ARs which wasn't warranted. Ok, fine....but don't make them obsolete. Nerf all of them, equally, don't buff the STD. The STD ARs should kick at 28 or 29 hp of damage if the ADV is 32. They shouldn't have the same amount of damage....it really doesn't make any sense.

I already stated the percentage difference in the standard to the proto for you in an earlier post and in the thread you started right after right after chromosome came out. I am sorry you don't like the difference but don't worry it will still probably be tweaked be it by price or by damage but it will still be changed.

Also you still have a thing about calling it an AR nerf when it was all light weapons across build, and maybe all weapons period but I am not sure don't run a heavy to even look at their weapons.

I already stated the percentage difference in the standard to the proto for you in an earlier post

Lol I only run ARs so that's all I was worried about. But if it is across the board, then everyone should be in an uproar.

They had the difference between the weapons (I'm talking ARs cause that's what I know) perfect in Codex. Each weapon was a complex damage mod away from the previous level. That makes total sense to me. What they did for Chromosome doesnt make sense.

This game is suppose to be about choices ur taking away choices by only wanting ppl to play by ur rules.
But anyway we've been back an forth on this numerous times now
MMO personality vs FPS personality just not gonna see eye to eye on how big an advantage should gear give u.

And you were wrong about it. Maybe you should look at the post above the one you quoted.

The standard rifle gets off 12 round a sec. Ydubbs stated due to movement in target and kick from gun you get about 5 to 6 rounds per 12.

The standard does 31 damage per round. So in 1 second you deal 186 damage to the target with this hit percentage, since there is not damage reduction on shields or armor from for an AR that I am aware of.

I stated that with level 5 AR OP you have less kick and dispersion and the Duvolle has an increased acurracy so you should get more rounds into you opponent, but only went with one more round out of 12. So you hit 7 out of 12 rounds with the Duvolle.

The Duvolle does 34.1 damage per round. So in 1 second you deal 239 damage. This is 52 more damage in 1 second.

This gives total of a 28% percent increase(sorry my original number was an off the top with mental math this was found using a calculator) in DPS. These numbers are without any damage buffs from skills or modules. Which also plays more towards the Duvolle, because the Duvolle has a higher DPS and the mods and skills are % based then it gets a better bonus from them than the standard as well.

This is a good increase that only gets better as you skill for damage.

Bleh my experience as a militia locked character.

TL;DR there is no incentive to gear up.

As it stands now I basically have created a militia fit for every weaponized expected role when and where possible, and if not possible stuck with type 1 since type 1s are essentially the same performance as militia but higher fitting costs. .

The absolute bottom line, there is not a single piece of equipment you can field that I as a militia locked character cannot kill you in. This includes vehicles. While going proto may increase the amount of effort on my end to kill you. The simple fact I cost nothing to field means I do win in the end regardless on how many times you killed me, My isk efficiency would probably produce an erroneous number.

As for better gear they offer very little in performance as a whole (not just guns, modules as well) to the point I almost feel PUNISHED wearing it. Wearing better gear almost feels as though I die much quicker in it vs militia gear life spans. Maybe because the higher stuff gets me shot more often I don't know but my life expectancy going up in tiers is significantly shorter.

So essentially there is no reason for you to bring any ISK to a match.

This game is trash.

So, you think that an ADV corp with Bseries suits and GEKs with "drastically" superior skills and tactics would not beat a corp with 100% proto gear (with Codex suit & gun stats)??

Going off what you think your accuracy might be based on recoil is BS math.

So essentially there is no reason for you to bring any ISK to a match.

This game is trash.

sigh dubbs u werent here from the BEGINNING
im not talkin about codex and neither is telc
we are referring to BEFORE codex when each tier of dropsuits not only had more slots and cpu and pg but also an increase in base health which combined with skills and ability to use more higher end gear made for higher tier gear vs lower tier to be a joke

i never agreed with the dmg nerfs now altho it isnt that big of a difference ppl just QQ too much
GEK lost 0.5 pts of dmg OMG IM CRIPPLED! ppl srs?
buffin standard and militia wasnt warranted tbh could of stayed at 30 and the others 32.5 and 34.1

I remember watching a CCP dev interview and the dev said that players are going to be suited up in their proto gear going into corp matches. So, it is intended for there to be proto vs proto matches. But what's the point if they want militia corps to be on the same level as proto.

They're straying away from what they intended.

sigh dubbs u werent here from the BEGINNING
im not talkin about codex and neither is telc
we are referring to BEFORE codex when each tier of dropsuits not only had more slots and cpu and pg but also an increase in base health which combined with skills and ability to use more higher end gear made for higher tier gear vs lower tier to be a joke

i never agreed with the dmg nerfs now altho it isnt that big of a difference ppl just QQ too much
GEK lost 0.5 pts of dmg OMG IM CRIPPLED! ppl srs?
buffin standard and militia wasnt warranted tbh could of stayed at 30 and the others 32.5 and 34.1

Militia is NOT on the same level as intended. It's just not completely garbage now. YDUBBS, if you and I are of equal level right now, and you use proto gear, and I use militia gear, you will kill me 4/5 times. In early builds, I you were better than me, and using militia gear, all I had to do was use my proto fit, and I would kill you 4/5 times. Skill played no part before, now it does.

Militia is NOT on the same level as intended. It's just not completely garbage now. YDUBBS, if you and I are of equal level right now, and you use proto gear, and I use militia gear, you will kill me 4/5 times. In early builds, I you were better than me, and using militia gear, all I had to do was use my proto fit, and I would kill you 4/5 times. Skill played no part before, now it does.

@ Goat of Dover

My issue is not the difference between the STD & Proto but the STD & ADV. I don't have the all of the stats for the GEK & Exile but run those rof and hp damage between those guns.

I would refer to my 2nd to last post. This is how the game will balance itself out. You guys are right, using proto gear in pubs will generally not be wise. As it should be... because this would ruin the game for new guys just venturing in high sec (which is effectively what we're playing right now)

You WILL want to use your good stuff, for when it matters... regardless of cost. Defending some sov territory? Of course you want to use the good stuff, you don't want to lose your home planet do you? Did you just lose 1mil isk in proto suits in a match in low sec? It's ok, you just won a 50mil isk contract!

This will all balance out. RIght now you guys are forget the meta game!

I think people are missing a big point when talking about guns. Proto guns are more expensive in isk and cpu and pg, they should be better in every possible way...currently their costs...all of the above...do not match what you get out of them. You can have a proto suit and an exile...the exile is cheaper, but also takes less room allowing you to add modules which will make your fitting even better...the top players should look at this ans see if it is even worth it to field proto weapons.

This is a big part of the problem.

There is not much need to do careful fits as you gain the SP for your better builds.

I am more receding to the cpu and pg cost of proto weapons...not the isk cost...isk doesn't matter.

6 out of 12 the standard does 186, the GEK does 195. The 12 out 12 is standard do 372, the Gek does 390.

This is real low not even 10 percent, never did this math was never asked or referenced to. This should be looked at maybe take the standard back down to where it was. I agree with you that is horrible.

I am curious to see the difference with mod/skills and how it changes since all do that.

Opposite.

I'm talking about the meta-game.

That contract will get eaten up in equipment costs. Scrubs can just take contract after contract losing with very little downside since their gear is nonfactor.

(You are about to start arguing to use the contract system to balance out ****** game design on CCP's part)

Part of what I've also argued is that we should have REAL looting so that you get loot from the ACTUAL battlefield.

People would then WANT people to gear up to fight them. You wouldn't want to come to hisec since the loot AND ISK was so bad.

Isk should matter...but it doesn't ....I am sitting pretty at 20 million...I don't run proto...because I haven't seen the point to ...I should clarify..I run proto pistols because I can....but a type A suit...only when I am hardcore AV and I die a lot will I lose money. That money can be gained back rather quickly though....

EXACTLY!!!

This supports my point. It's easy to bank isk, because if you're good, you can run cheap fits. There's no NEED to use expensive fits. (unless you CHOOSE to, maybe if there are other skilled players, and you need that slight edge)

Losing isk against militia suits trying to zerg you, isn't a problem. 1. because you'll have saved up TONS of isk. 2. Because you can just as easily switch to a cheap fit that is almost as effective. Let your SKILL do the talking!

6 out of 12 the standard does 186, the GEK does 195. The 12 out 12 is standard do 372, the Gek does 390.

This is real low not even 10 percent, never did this math was never asked or referenced to. This should be looked at maybe take the standard back down to where it was. I agree with you that is horrible.

I am curious to see the difference with mod/skills and how it changes since all do that.

lol, you haven't proved any point. Your argument doesn't make sense. Risk is there if YOU choose.

No risk, no reward. If you risk a high end fit, you will have an advantage. This will net you a win against players of equal or lesser skill than you. It will not BUY you a win. You want fits to win matches, I want skill to win matches.
As I mentioned before, look at your corp mate's spreadsheet. Proto fits (the entire fit, not just weapons) still have a BIG advantage against milita fits. It's just not a god-mode like it was in prior builds.

Clearly, you and I don't agree on this. I'm done debating. You've made your point and I've made mine.

I refer you to your corp-mate's spreadsheet. It supports my point, that proto fits are still considerably stronger than militia fits. Look at the entire fit... not just the weapon.

No risk, no reward. If you risk a high end fit, you will have an advantage. This will net you a win against players of equal or lesser skill than you. It will not BUY you a win. You want fits to win matches, I want skill to win matches.
As I mentioned before, look at your corp mate's spreadsheet. Proto fits (the entire fit, not just weapons) still have a BIG advantage against milita fits. It's just not a god-mode like it was in prior builds.

Clearly, you and I don't agree on this. I'm done debating. You've made your point and I've made mine.

Right.

Because being able to wager matchsticks against $1000 chips repeatedly (until you win) is a cool game for someone to play.

Ok, I'll bite. Clearly you don't play poker. (at least not at a high level)

A guy walking into a game with $20 in chips, when all players at the table have $2000 in chips, has practically NO chance of walking away with money. This is what you want, you want to have a stack of $2000 in front of you, so that you can just get that ONE hand that will wipe out the little guy. Even if he doubles up several times against you, all you have to do is win ONE hand where you put him all in... because you want to play NO-Limit poker. This is your world.

In mine, I'm saying that the new guy, will have a chance, because we should be playing LIMIT poker. You still have an advantage with your big stack, but you have to OUTPLAY the little guy, in order to take his money, because you'll only be able to chip away at him, a little at a time.

The weapon aspect means absolutely nothing is what my spreadsheet is showing. It doesn't matter what weapon you use at your current SP investment, you have practically the same killing power with all of them, so there is no reason to use a higher one.

You're right, the weapon aspect means little when its JUST the weapon your talking about. When it's the fit including suits/modules/etc, the differences are much bigger.

example
all militia fit is free
all proto/complex fit is say 150k isk

The tanked health and even slight damage advantage the proto fit has, downs the militia player in 12 rounds.
The militia player takes 23ish rounds to kill the proto.
The proto player is twice as strong!

If you take two proto fits, and one uses duvolle, the other uses exile rifle.
The full proto fit will be able to eat 2 or so additional bullets... yest not a big difference.
BUT, the price difference isn't 150k isk to 0. It's 150k isk to about 80k isk (cant remember exact cost of duvolle)

If the free chip is "worth" basically the same as the $1k chip then my metaphor is just fine.

ie 5 chips on either side to ante etc.

You are just willfully choosing to interpret it poorly.

Your analogy is flawed. There is no "free chip". The "weapon" in poker, is the money you can wager in a bet. Not the stack in front of you. The stack in front of you is your isk. You want to have the bigger stack, and force people all in, because the size of your wager will be HUGE. I want people to play limit poker. The bets are smaller, so the "weapons" are more level. It doesn't matter if you have $2000 in front of you, and I have $100. In limit, I have a chance to outplay you. In no limit, even if I win several hands, your stack will still dwarf mine, and you just need to be able to throw your chips around until you catch me in a bad hand.

You're right, the weapon aspect means little when its JUST the weapon your talking about. When it's the fit including suits/modules/etc, the differences are much bigger.

example
all militia fit is free
all proto/complex fit is say 150k isk

The tanked health and even slight damage advantage the proto fit has, downs the militia player in 12 rounds.
The militia player takes 23ish rounds to kill the proto.
The proto player is twice as strong!

If you take two proto fits, and one uses duvolle, the other uses exile rifle.
The full proto fit will be able to eat 2 or so additional bullets... yest not a big difference.
BUT, the price difference isn't 150k isk to 0. It's 150k isk to about 80k isk (cant remember exact cost of duvolle)

You are in denial.

The gear isn't killing you, we are.

You are in denial.

You aren't as good as you think you are, get off your high horse and read my post again. Point blank. Full clip. No death.
If you complain that proto gear isn't strong enough, you are doing something wrong.

If you take two proto fits, and one uses duvolle, the other uses exile rifle.
The full proto fit will be able to eat 2 or so additional bullets... yest not a big difference.
BUT, the price difference isn't 150k isk to 0. It's 150k isk to about 80k isk (cant remember exact cost of duvolle)

this silly argument again, skill is greater than gear unless both parties are just standing still and shooting at each other, the gear vs skill argument is usually put forward by people that can't handle the idea that they aren't number 1.

I have no trouble killing VK suits in my type II, killing a squad of VK suits on the other hand is quite a different story, as it should be, been getting between 20-30 kills per match in those HK ambush games using almost entirely Type II suits with a gek.

dont mean to be a stickler; but your example isn't very good. You leave to much out to support your claim.

As i'll take it further:

Player A
VK1 w/ 4 complex shield extenders + duvolle

Player B
B-series 3 complex shield extenders + duvolle

Changed your example. Right here shows how minute this idea of how god like proto gear is. Essentially exact same fits; the only things that separate this two players are 66 shields (2 bullets), but a 1.2 MILLION sp gap. For the cost of ISK and SP for say a proto suit; what you gain is moot.

The reason people seem godlike in proto gear is, THEY ARE SKILLED . Look a Regnum, Zitro's, etc. They can kill in pure miltia through proto. The suits doesn't make the player. The only thing the suit does, is it helps in survivability.

Mike, im not sure if you have a proto suit; but if you dont; getting one aint easy; in sense, it takes roughly 3 weeks to get a proto suit. For the time needed, it isn't all the great; you can easily be taken out by a tank, a FG, MD's, LR . It simply comes down to players skill

Give the exact same fit to two players. One good, one mediocre/bad; and id say 99/100 the good player will win. Not b/c of gear, but skill. Im simply pointing out; that skill does over come gear; but at the same time; higher tiered gear should help in your survivability; but at the moment it doesn't help

I skipped the majority of this trash. I can't bear to hear the "I'm paying more money than everyone else so I should always win" QQ.

I skipped the majority of this trash. I can't bear to hear the "I'm paying more money than everyone else so I should always win" QQ.

As someone said earlier, skill eats gear but gear is the tie breaker. This is not entirely true, but pretty close. Skill eats gear, skill point total and allocation counterbalances skill to an extent, and gear is the tie breaker.

Let me put it this way:

Weaponry Lvl. 5 = +10% damage
AR Proficiency Lvl. 5 = +15% damage

Duvolle - Damage 34.1 - RoF 750 - Acc 57.2

Gek-38 - Damage 32.5 - RoF 750 - Acc 56.6

"Exile" AR - Damage 31 - RoF 750 - Acc 56


Now, if you have skilled up nothing with the basic AR proficiency (the weapon we hear the QQ the most about) or weaponry you are doing 750 RPM x 31 damage per bullet/60 seconds or 387.5 damage per second.

With both skilled up, you are looking at 31 damage per bullet + 25% x 750 RPM/60 seconds or 484.375 Damage per second

NOW, with a proto weapon, say the Duvolle, let's do that math again. 34.1 damage per bullet + 25% x 750 RPM/60 seconds is 532.8125 Damage per second.

That's a difference of 48.4375 damage per second between a Duvolle and a basic at max level.

That's a difference of 145.3125 damage per second from a person with no skills in damage compared to a person maxed out on AR proficiency

And remember that is DAMAGE PER SECOND

Lastly, Duvolle with no skill Vs. Duvolle with skill:

106.5625 DAMAGE PER SECOND

145.3125 damage per second in your favor and you think spending the time to get those higher leveled rifles doesn't matter? Grow up and learn some math scrubs.

TL;DR: If you skill up, you get much better odds with better gear than if you don't. 145.3125 damage per second difference between no skill Basic AR and all skill Proto AR. Learn math and quit QQing.

Why are you comparing the Duvolle with the militia? The issue is, let's say, the Exile & the GEK. They shouldn't be so close to each other in damage.

You're comparing extremes to suit your opinion but ignoring where the real problem is.

this silly argument again, skill is greater than gear unless both parties are just standing still and shooting at each other, the gear vs skill argument is usually put forward by people that can't handle the idea that they aren't number 1.

I have no trouble killing VK suits in my type II, killing a squad of VK suits on the other hand is quite a different story, as it should be, been getting between 20-30 kills per match in those HK ambush games using almost entirely Type II suits with a gek.

The bottom line is that this isn't an easy balance and there are many more variables than 2 mercs simply standing 5 meters from each other in open space with gear variants.

I'm not speaking for Mike but I think his point about this essentially being High Sec is good one. I posted a thread called "The Learning Cliff" pre Codex and suggested that there needs to be some kind of balance for new players. Whether that is a gear restriction in High Sec matches or simply an area where new players can get their feet wet without seasoned vets in Proto gear pubstomping is very important to the success of this game.

There does need to be a hook for the new player. They must have some kind of success or at least feel like there is a chance they will be able to before they are 6 months old. For this reason alone, I do think the recent change in damage levels between weapons is a good thing.

That being said....I, much like Telc, hate the fact that I have spent millions of SP to get into Proto gear that I rarely, if ever, use. The risk just isn't currently worth the reward....at least in my opinion.

Though, I can't say that I've ever seen a member of RND not using an ISK GEK or the Killswitch in any game I've been in so I'm not sure what the issue is for you YDUBBS? You do just fine from a KDR perspective and if you're losing too much ISK because of it then you might want to re-evaluate the cost of your fits versus the ISK reward.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that we are currently being rewarded for losing. That will not be the case, per CCP, once you start picking up player issued contracts. Just like how it is for beta corp battles. So, playing with house money when it counts isn't really going to be an option unless you are just testing your abilities as a corp to operate in lower gear variants.

Look at it like this:

Imperfects put up a 20mil ISK contract that PFBHz picks up. The reward would currently be approx 39mil ISK (subtracting the contract fee). If Imperfects fit STD gear and PFBHz fits all proto and PFBHz wins.....Imperfects are, in fact, out that $20mil and whatever it cost to replace your gear. You go home with no ISK and minus a bunch of gear. To me that seems like a pretty good reason to not show up in STD gear.


To Telc:

I'm with you though....I despise the fact that I don't feel like it's worth using my shiny stuff. The real issue is that during beta we just don't have anything to really play for other than the ISK, SP grind (that, by the way, will be repeated), and refining tactics.


Good Discussion with valid arguments on both sides. "Please sir, may I have more"

thats a very good point
the counter to that is if they do take that risk and show up in standard gear and win then they save a bunch of ISK while costing PFBHz 20mil + the cost of the gear lost in the battle

tbh the only proto suit i really question is the heavy just doesnt have enough mod slots imho

Though, I can't say that I've ever seen a member of RND not using an ISK GEK or the Killswitch in any game I've been in so I'm not sure what the issue is for you YDUBBS? You do just fine from a KDR perspective and if you're losing too much ISK because of it then you might want to re-evaluate the cost of your fits versus the ISK reward.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that we are currently being rewarded for losing. That will not be the case, per CCP, once you start picking up player issued contracts. Just like how it is for beta corp battles. So, playing with house money when it counts isn't really going to be an option unless you are just testing your abilities as a corp to operate in lower gear variants.

Look at it like this:

Imperfects put up a 20mil ISK contract that PFBHz picks up. The reward would currently be approx 39mil ISK (subtracting the contract fee). If Imperfects fit STD gear and PFBHz fits all proto and PFBHz wins.....Imperfects are, in fact, out that $20mil and whatever it cost to replace your gear. You go home with no ISK and minus a bunch of gear. To me that seems like a pretty good reason to not show up in STD gear.


To Telc:

I'm with you though....I despise the fact that I don't feel like it's worth using my shiny stuff. The real issue is that during beta we just don't have anything to really play for other than the ISK, SP grind (that, by the way, will be repeated), and refining tactics.


Good Discussion with valid arguments on both sides. "Please sir, may I have more"

The bottom line is that this isn't an easy balance and there are many more variables than 2 mercs simply standing 5 meters from each other in open space with gear variants.

That being said....I, much like Telc, hate the fact that I have spent millions of SP to get into Proto gear that I rarely, if ever, use. The risk just isn't currently worth the reward....at least in my opinion.

This is the thing and it goes straight to something that I've said before and the ideology of the game. I only use my adv or gear or weapons for two reasons. They are when I deem it necessary or if I'm testing out a new suit configuration. If I'm playing against all NPC corp members, then I use militia/STD gear because I figure that my adv gear will not be necessary and therefore I do not have to risk losing that ISK.

The reason why you may have seen myself using adv guns is because maybe you're in a corp that won't easily be put down. So, if I notice that the Imps, PFBHz, Zion, Seraphim, STB, etc are on the other side then I'm going to bring out the gear that I feel is needed to match it. I could cry that they are all using duvolles OR I can go and drop my militia guns and bring out my duvolle.

And that's the point....players need to get out of militia gear if they want to compete. Don't bring the guns closer together and make the GEK, typically, useless. The players should level up and get gear to match. It takes less than two weeks to be able to use a duvolle and type II suit. And you can tango with someone in an ADV suit with a type II if you are competent. The only issue may be is if they're going up against a proto suit. And honestly, the only group of people that I see using proto suits and gear in every match are the Imps. So, if you run into a match with them, here and there, so be it. But don't bring all of the guns together.



Also, we don't have no more than 5 guys with killswitches/duvolles and only 3 of us out of the entire corp has PROTO suits. And, only one of uses adv level gear in all of the games that he's in. Many of us use militia and STD gear in some of the matches where miltia fits are really all that are necessary.

i agree that weapons are too close together now. However, old weapon values were too powerful... mainly because along with SP skills trained, a new player stood NO chance. Right now, there is NO real reason to use proto guns.

Solution, return the militia and standard variants back to where they were last build. Bump the proto weapons ALMOST back to where they were before, but keep them just short of old damage, AND reduce their price by a third. This (imo) fixes the problem for both sides. New players don't get auto-slaughtered by vets using high end gear, unless they get out played. Vets have a reason to use proto guns because they are a little more powerful, but also dont cost an arm and a leg to equip.

Compromise people. Neither the old build or this build are/were perfect, in regards to weapons damage.

This is part of the problem.

People think they are doing a good thing by encouraging CCP to homogenize the game.

Your logic is that somehow if weapon damage would be a little lower here and suit tanks a little weaker there they'd "have a chance".

The reality is that the players coming into this game are just flat out bad.

I've never played against a worse player base than Dust514s.

If you look at the number of bullets it takes to kill ANYONE on the field its REALLLY LOW.

Like 20-30 low.

What's happening with newbs is that they simply can't aim and shoot.

They can after they get their bearings and learn the game a bit.

At which point they have built some SP and can start using some of the more interesting bits of the system.

You guys are encouraging CCP to "balance" a shooter for people that can't aim, move, shoot, use timing or use tactics.

Why are you comparing the Duvolle with the militia? The issue is, let's say, the Exile & the GEK. They shouldn't be so close to each other in damage.

You're comparing extremes to suit your opinion but ignoring where the real problem is.

lol, wth game did you come from? 20 bullets to kill someone is low?

Spoken like someone who has no idea what he's talking about. Did my middle school level math confuse you poor fools? It's not a comparison of extremes.

Put into simple terms, if you don't like how small the gap is between proto and basic weapons, then skill up and the gap is larger. Quit QQing about the guns being so close together when you can personally change that in your own skill list.

Skills ARE the balance between skill and gear. Good AR's are only given full potential when given given full skills. There is a larger gap between a basic at max level and a proto at max level than a basic at minimum level and a proto at minimum level.


If you ignore this you are ignoring the entire system set up in this game and only you are to blame for not knowing the difference. And then you inevitably fail since you can't wrap your head around basic math.

If you have a Duvolle but no weapon damage skills and face off against someone running a basic with maxed weapon damage skills, you are at a disadvantage. And it's your own fault for it.

Numbers are fine and good, but meaningless as well. You talk of 100 pt damage difference, but when u look ingame that is 3 bullets. Let me say it again THREE bullets to separate a million plus sp differential. Also these 3 shots, you are talking about milliseconds of a difference, thusly no difference as been said; as u are talking about a tap of the R1 button

You talk of 100 pt damage difference, but when u look ingame that is 3 bullets. Let me say it again THREE bullets to separate a million plus sp differential

Numbers being meaningless. I feel sorry for every math teacher who has ever tried to teach you anything.

First, you said 3 bullets in one second.

Then you said that's a difference in milliseconds. Very well put, if only I had your level of intellect.

A millisecond is a thousandth (1/1,000) of a second. Also, 750 RPM means 12.5 bullets per second, not 3. Let me quote you again incase you forgot what you said:



Ermahgerd, yer per, per terchers....

Ok, now that's done with, yes, you are correct that a certain number of bullets are the difference of 100 ish damage. But that's DAMAGE PER SECOND. Gun fights are over very quickly in most cases. Usually only lasting 1-5 seconds. Now, in that 5 seconds would you rather your Duvolle be doing 532.8125 Damage per second or 426.25 Damage per second?

In that 5 second confrontation if you have maxed skills you have done a full 532.8125 more damage than the other guy with no skills and the same gun. Don't tell me math the is meaningless. Come back when you learn some basic math and we'll have a real conversation.

Lol.

You have 600 likes on the forum sucking up but can't manage to gear....get ******* good. Seriously your post was like a highlight of scrubby denial.

Spoken like someone who has no idea what he's talking about. Did my middle school level math confuse you poor fools? It's not a comparison of extremes.

Put into simple terms, if you don't like how small the gap is between proto and basic weapons, then skill up and the gap is larger. Quit QQing about the guns being so close together when you can personally change that in your own skill list.

Skills ARE the balance between skill and gear. Good AR's are only given full potential when given given full skills. There is a larger gap between a basic at max level and a proto at max level than a basic at minimum level and a proto at minimum level.


If you ignore this you are ignoring the entire system set up in this game and only you are to blame for not knowing the difference. And then you inevitably fail since you can't wrap your head around basic math.

If you have a Duvolle but no weapon damage skills and face off against someone running a basic with maxed weapon damage skills, you are at a disadvantage. And it's your own fault for it.

I guess you can pat yourself on the back for how great this game is going to be with flat gear?

Here's the other side -

I killed a decent gun the other day like 3-4x times in his proto suit with a militia shotgun.

Some of you think that's worth bragging over but I think it's pretty much trash.

I'm killing a dude and I have no points whatsoever in shotguns but its just lololol on my side.

He was willing to risk something in fighting me and my squad. He GEARED to fight us. He was using the weapon he'd skilled up in.

People in militia gear and BPO assault rifles are risking nothing.

They can just keep respawning and zerging because it doesn't matter.

If you think about the implications in this for Lowsec and Nullsec it's pretty ugly.

There needs to be HARD gear checks for participating in those fights (I'd like the rewards reduced in hisec so that proto is not economical for people when there is lowsec to fight in).

I don't want to fight people that can't be bothered to RISK anything or PREPARE (ie get the SP together to get fitted in the first place).

My corp is prepared and ready to risk, are you?

First off, you really need to get some p**** and calm down. And don't try to insult me about math because if you don't have a degree in math, then you can't talk to me about it.

Anyway, jackass, you are STILL comparing a duvolle to a militia grade assault rifle. Do your "middle school" math calculations comparing the GEK and the Exile and tell me if the gap isn't narrow. If the GEK had a higher rate of fire than the Exile, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

But my whole point is, as things are now, purchasing the GEK or the blindfire is pointless. Why purchase the GEK when the Exile comes close enough to doing the same damage and it's free.

Maybe if you stop practicing your middle school math and learned how to read, then you would see that my issue is the (almost) negligible gap between the exile and the gek....and nothing else.

ahahhahhaha look at the little moron rage. you obviously have no grip on reality(since when does having a degree mean **** beyond better pay) so I doubt you have any better grip on this game, and given that you are such a bitchy little troll, my guess is that you are pissed of that you cant buy your victories any more, sad sad skill-less little man.

Having a degree means you've been educated. And you can't insult someone's knowledge about a subject unless you've been educated on it...at least on their level or past it.

I don't even know you and you jump in here as if we've crossed paths or something. I'm not doing any worse than I've done before. Your statement is just silly and a fail troll attempt, desperate for attention. So, savor this moment because I won't pay you anymore mind on this.

Wow, u really want to be literal. Im sorry i didnt want to calc the exact time it takes for 3 bullets to be shot, but that a generalization would get the point across.. talk about being anal

I guess you can pat yourself on the back for how great this game is going to be with flat gear?

I killed a decent gun the other day like 3-4x times in his proto suit with a militia shotgun. Some of you think that's worth bragging over but I think it's pretty much trash. I'm killing a dude and I have no points whatsoever in shotguns but its just lololol on my side.

People in militia gear and BPO assault rifles are risking nothing.