Opposite.

I'm talking about the meta-game.

That contract will get eaten up in equipment costs. Scrubs can just take contract after contract losing with very little downside since their gear is nonfactor.

(You are about to start arguing to use the contract system to balance out ****** game design on CCP's part)

Part of what I've also argued is that we should have REAL looting so that you get loot from the ACTUAL battlefield.

People would then WANT people to gear up to fight them. You wouldn't want to come to hisec since the loot AND ISK was so bad.

Isk should matter...but it doesn't ....I am sitting pretty at 20 million...I don't run proto...because I haven't seen the point to ...I should clarify..I run proto pistols because I can....but a type A suit...only when I am hardcore AV and I die a lot will I lose money. That money can be gained back rather quickly though....

EXACTLY!!!

This supports my point. It's easy to bank isk, because if you're good, you can run cheap fits. There's no NEED to use expensive fits. (unless you CHOOSE to, maybe if there are other skilled players, and you need that slight edge)

Losing isk against militia suits trying to zerg you, isn't a problem. 1. because you'll have saved up TONS of isk. 2. Because you can just as easily switch to a cheap fit that is almost as effective. Let your SKILL do the talking!

6 out of 12 the standard does 186, the GEK does 195. The 12 out 12 is standard do 372, the Gek does 390.

This is real low not even 10 percent, never did this math was never asked or referenced to. This should be looked at maybe take the standard back down to where it was. I agree with you that is horrible.

I am curious to see the difference with mod/skills and how it changes since all do that.

lol, you haven't proved any point. Your argument doesn't make sense. Risk is there if YOU choose.

No risk, no reward. If you risk a high end fit, you will have an advantage. This will net you a win against players of equal or lesser skill than you. It will not BUY you a win. You want fits to win matches, I want skill to win matches.
As I mentioned before, look at your corp mate's spreadsheet. Proto fits (the entire fit, not just weapons) still have a BIG advantage against milita fits. It's just not a god-mode like it was in prior builds.

Clearly, you and I don't agree on this. I'm done debating. You've made your point and I've made mine.

I refer you to your corp-mate's spreadsheet. It supports my point, that proto fits are still considerably stronger than militia fits. Look at the entire fit... not just the weapon.

No risk, no reward. If you risk a high end fit, you will have an advantage. This will net you a win against players of equal or lesser skill than you. It will not BUY you a win. You want fits to win matches, I want skill to win matches.
As I mentioned before, look at your corp mate's spreadsheet. Proto fits (the entire fit, not just weapons) still have a BIG advantage against milita fits. It's just not a god-mode like it was in prior builds.

Clearly, you and I don't agree on this. I'm done debating. You've made your point and I've made mine.

Right.

Because being able to wager matchsticks against $1000 chips repeatedly (until you win) is a cool game for someone to play.

Ok, I'll bite. Clearly you don't play poker. (at least not at a high level)

A guy walking into a game with $20 in chips, when all players at the table have $2000 in chips, has practically NO chance of walking away with money. This is what you want, you want to have a stack of $2000 in front of you, so that you can just get that ONE hand that will wipe out the little guy. Even if he doubles up several times against you, all you have to do is win ONE hand where you put him all in... because you want to play NO-Limit poker. This is your world.

In mine, I'm saying that the new guy, will have a chance, because we should be playing LIMIT poker. You still have an advantage with your big stack, but you have to OUTPLAY the little guy, in order to take his money, because you'll only be able to chip away at him, a little at a time.

The weapon aspect means absolutely nothing is what my spreadsheet is showing. It doesn't matter what weapon you use at your current SP investment, you have practically the same killing power with all of them, so there is no reason to use a higher one.

You're right, the weapon aspect means little when its JUST the weapon your talking about. When it's the fit including suits/modules/etc, the differences are much bigger.

example
all militia fit is free
all proto/complex fit is say 150k isk

The tanked health and even slight damage advantage the proto fit has, downs the militia player in 12 rounds.
The militia player takes 23ish rounds to kill the proto.
The proto player is twice as strong!

If you take two proto fits, and one uses duvolle, the other uses exile rifle.
The full proto fit will be able to eat 2 or so additional bullets... yest not a big difference.
BUT, the price difference isn't 150k isk to 0. It's 150k isk to about 80k isk (cant remember exact cost of duvolle)

If the free chip is "worth" basically the same as the $1k chip then my metaphor is just fine.

ie 5 chips on either side to ante etc.

You are just willfully choosing to interpret it poorly.

Your analogy is flawed. There is no "free chip". The "weapon" in poker, is the money you can wager in a bet. Not the stack in front of you. The stack in front of you is your isk. You want to have the bigger stack, and force people all in, because the size of your wager will be HUGE. I want people to play limit poker. The bets are smaller, so the "weapons" are more level. It doesn't matter if you have $2000 in front of you, and I have $100. In limit, I have a chance to outplay you. In no limit, even if I win several hands, your stack will still dwarf mine, and you just need to be able to throw your chips around until you catch me in a bad hand.

You're right, the weapon aspect means little when its JUST the weapon your talking about. When it's the fit including suits/modules/etc, the differences are much bigger.

example
all militia fit is free
all proto/complex fit is say 150k isk

The tanked health and even slight damage advantage the proto fit has, downs the militia player in 12 rounds.
The militia player takes 23ish rounds to kill the proto.
The proto player is twice as strong!

If you take two proto fits, and one uses duvolle, the other uses exile rifle.
The full proto fit will be able to eat 2 or so additional bullets... yest not a big difference.
BUT, the price difference isn't 150k isk to 0. It's 150k isk to about 80k isk (cant remember exact cost of duvolle)

You are in denial.

The gear isn't killing you, we are.

You are in denial.

You aren't as good as you think you are, get off your high horse and read my post again. Point blank. Full clip. No death.
If you complain that proto gear isn't strong enough, you are doing something wrong.

If you take two proto fits, and one uses duvolle, the other uses exile rifle.
The full proto fit will be able to eat 2 or so additional bullets... yest not a big difference.
BUT, the price difference isn't 150k isk to 0. It's 150k isk to about 80k isk (cant remember exact cost of duvolle)

this silly argument again, skill is greater than gear unless both parties are just standing still and shooting at each other, the gear vs skill argument is usually put forward by people that can't handle the idea that they aren't number 1.

I have no trouble killing VK suits in my type II, killing a squad of VK suits on the other hand is quite a different story, as it should be, been getting between 20-30 kills per match in those HK ambush games using almost entirely Type II suits with a gek.

dont mean to be a stickler; but your example isn't very good. You leave to much out to support your claim.

As i'll take it further:

Player A
VK1 w/ 4 complex shield extenders + duvolle

Player B
B-series 3 complex shield extenders + duvolle

Changed your example. Right here shows how minute this idea of how god like proto gear is. Essentially exact same fits; the only things that separate this two players are 66 shields (2 bullets), but a 1.2 MILLION sp gap. For the cost of ISK and SP for say a proto suit; what you gain is moot.

The reason people seem godlike in proto gear is, THEY ARE SKILLED . Look a Regnum, Zitro's, etc. They can kill in pure miltia through proto. The suits doesn't make the player. The only thing the suit does, is it helps in survivability.

Mike, im not sure if you have a proto suit; but if you dont; getting one aint easy; in sense, it takes roughly 3 weeks to get a proto suit. For the time needed, it isn't all the great; you can easily be taken out by a tank, a FG, MD's, LR . It simply comes down to players skill

Give the exact same fit to two players. One good, one mediocre/bad; and id say 99/100 the good player will win. Not b/c of gear, but skill. Im simply pointing out; that skill does over come gear; but at the same time; higher tiered gear should help in your survivability; but at the moment it doesn't help

I skipped the majority of this trash. I can't bear to hear the "I'm paying more money than everyone else so I should always win" QQ.

I skipped the majority of this trash. I can't bear to hear the "I'm paying more money than everyone else so I should always win" QQ.

As someone said earlier, skill eats gear but gear is the tie breaker. This is not entirely true, but pretty close. Skill eats gear, skill point total and allocation counterbalances skill to an extent, and gear is the tie breaker.

Let me put it this way:

Weaponry Lvl. 5 = +10% damage
AR Proficiency Lvl. 5 = +15% damage

Duvolle - Damage 34.1 - RoF 750 - Acc 57.2

Gek-38 - Damage 32.5 - RoF 750 - Acc 56.6

"Exile" AR - Damage 31 - RoF 750 - Acc 56


Now, if you have skilled up nothing with the basic AR proficiency (the weapon we hear the QQ the most about) or weaponry you are doing 750 RPM x 31 damage per bullet/60 seconds or 387.5 damage per second.

With both skilled up, you are looking at 31 damage per bullet + 25% x 750 RPM/60 seconds or 484.375 Damage per second

NOW, with a proto weapon, say the Duvolle, let's do that math again. 34.1 damage per bullet + 25% x 750 RPM/60 seconds is 532.8125 Damage per second.

That's a difference of 48.4375 damage per second between a Duvolle and a basic at max level.

That's a difference of 145.3125 damage per second from a person with no skills in damage compared to a person maxed out on AR proficiency

And remember that is DAMAGE PER SECOND

Lastly, Duvolle with no skill Vs. Duvolle with skill:

106.5625 DAMAGE PER SECOND

145.3125 damage per second in your favor and you think spending the time to get those higher leveled rifles doesn't matter? Grow up and learn some math scrubs.

TL;DR: If you skill up, you get much better odds with better gear than if you don't. 145.3125 damage per second difference between no skill Basic AR and all skill Proto AR. Learn math and quit QQing.

Why are you comparing the Duvolle with the militia? The issue is, let's say, the Exile & the GEK. They shouldn't be so close to each other in damage.

You're comparing extremes to suit your opinion but ignoring where the real problem is.

this silly argument again, skill is greater than gear unless both parties are just standing still and shooting at each other, the gear vs skill argument is usually put forward by people that can't handle the idea that they aren't number 1.

I have no trouble killing VK suits in my type II, killing a squad of VK suits on the other hand is quite a different story, as it should be, been getting between 20-30 kills per match in those HK ambush games using almost entirely Type II suits with a gek.