DUST Search - I may be in the minority, but I like the reduced difference between militia and ...

Telcontar Dunedain wrote:

mikegunnz wrote:

Telcontar Dunedain wrote:

mikegunnz wrote:

No risk, no reward. If you risk a high end fit, you will have an advantage. This will net you a win against players of equal or lesser skill than you. It will not BUY you a win. You want fits to win matches, I want skill to win matches.
As I mentioned before, look at your corp mate's spreadsheet. Proto fits (the entire fit, not just weapons) still have a BIG advantage against milita fits. It's just not a god-mode like it was in prior builds.

Clearly, you and I don't agree on this. I'm done debating. You've made your point and I've made mine.

Right.

Because being able to wager matchsticks against $1000 chips repeatedly (until you win) is a cool game for someone to play.

Ok, I'll bite. Clearly you don't play poker. (at least not at a high level)

A guy walking into a game with $20 in chips, when all players at the table have $2000 in chips, has practically NO chance of walking away with money. This is what you want, you want to have a stack of $2000 in front of you, so that you can just get that ONE hand that will wipe out the little guy. Even if he doubles up several times against you, all you have to do is win ONE hand where you put him all in... because you want to play NO-Limit poker. This is your world.

In mine, I'm saying that the new guy, will have a chance, because we should be playing LIMIT poker. You still have an advantage with your big stack, but you have to OUTPLAY the little guy, in order to take his money, because you'll only be able to chip away at him, a little at a time.

If the free chip is "worth" basically the same as the $1k chip then my metaphor is just fine.

ie 5 chips on either side to ante etc.

You are just willfully choosing to interpret it poorly.


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mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.29 21:16:00 - [1] - Quote Think about it: When you factor SP into shields, armor, weapon dmg, etc AND the old dmg values, a new player had NO chance against a vet in proto/complex gear. This ruins the FPS side of the game. The way it is now, skill actually plays more of a role in the game. Newer players have a chance against vets, because their skill can overcome the smaller difference the fits give you. It makes it a fun FPS in HIGHSEC, and still DOES make a difference when you have 2 players of EQUAL skill.... the one with better gear will STILL win the majority of the time. In Corp matches, you can then spend money to get every advantage possible out of your proto gear, because while expensive, the gear is being used to cash in on a contract. (many of which will be worth 10s of millions of isk.) I don't see what's wrong with this. It naturally balances things out. Players will tend to use lower level gear for pubs/high sec, and probably will reserve the expensive stuff for matches that mean something. Only complaint MIGHT be that the proto gear might be A LITTLE too expensive. The only change I'd like to see, is maybe a 10% reduction in advanced and proto suits/guns. That, and maybe return the militia gear to it's original values. PS. People tend to also forget that damage is only ONE component of a weapons value, the proto weapons also tend to have higher accuracy, ammo capacity, range, better charge times, etc. Yet another reason, why we're better off now. In conclusion: THANK YOU CCP!!!
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:13:00 - [2] - Quote Currently, yes. Prior builds, no. If you feel YOU did just as well, not going to dispute. But GENERALLY speaking, a militia player was at a BIG disadvantage.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.29 22:48:00 - [3] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: I guess you can pat yourself on the back for how great this game is going to be with flat gear? Here's the other side - I killed a decent gun the other day like 3-4x times in his proto suit with a militia shotgun. Some of you think that's worth bragging over but I think it's pretty much trash. I'm killing a dude and I have no points whatsoever in shotguns but its just lololol on my side. He was willing to risk something in fighting me and my squad. He GEARED to fight us. He was using the weapon he'd skilled up in. People in militia gear and BPO assault rifles are risking nothing. They can just keep respawning and zerging because it doesn't matter. If you think about the implications in this for Lowsec and Nullsec it's pretty ugly. There needs to be HARD gear checks for participating in those fights (I'd like the rewards reduced in hisec so that proto is not economical for people when there is lowsec to fight in). I don't want to fight people that can't be bothered to RISK anything or PREPARE (ie get the SP together to get fitted in the first place). My corp is prepared and ready to risk, are you? I'll try and counter your argument. - The guy you killed with a shotgun. That's not a militia vs proto argument. That's a gun balance argument. I'd say the shotty, particularly the militia shotty is a little OP. That aside, if you killed someone with a shotty, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. (either you lucky or good enough to get near him OR he was bad enough to allow you near him) Shotties are not effective at longer ranges. -You say militia can zerg. Good for them, if it's so effective, you can slap on your militia gear and do it too. If you CHOOSE to risk isk for the advantage of using proto gear, that's your choice. The reality is, right now, if corp A is better than corp B, and corp A uses proto gear than corp B, Corp A will win. Pretty easily. If Corp A is better, but Corp B uses better gear, Corp A still has a chance to win... meaning SKILL plays a role in Dust. (which is a FPS, in case you forgot) Either way, Corp A wins. In prior builds, this was not the case. The team with more play time and/or money, won. (unless the "poor" team had MUCH higher skill) To say that this has something to do with risk is rediculous. In prior builds, fits mattered A LOT more. Unless skill of players was very uneven, the team with better fits almost always won. You spend more money, you're almost GUARANTEED a win. Where exactly is the risk in that? NOW, the gear still plays a considerable role, but SKILL matters as much if not more. My $.02 Edit: PS. Regarding the game being flat. I love how those who make your argument use absolutes. The game will not have flat gear. There is STILL a difference in damage AND accuracy AND capacity AND recharge times AND range, etc etc. Add to that, the fact that proto suits, allow you more cpu and pg, and allow you to add modules to tank SEVERAL HUNDRED more HP than opponents using militia gear. Yeah, seems pretty flat to me.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 02:07:00 - [4] - Quote Wow, I go out to eat and come back to see a (for the most part) intelligent discussion. Not saying I'm RIGHT or Telc and his side is WRONG. I'm also not saying that the current damage values are EXACTLY as they should be. I'm saying, it's a step in the right direction. Personally, (please forgive errors, going off top of my head) I think the militia should have remained at old damage levels. Militia and Std AR for example (I'm mostly an AR user) should have stayed at 30, GEK, is good at 32.5, perhaps Duvolle should be 34.5. Again, remember, there are improvements in accuracy to the GEK and Duvolle as well. My point is that proto gear shouldn't be "I WIN" gear. It should be helpful, but the laws of diminishing return should apply. Also, someone mentioned how it's not worth using proto gear. Well, considering that now we're effectively playing highsec pub matches, it's ok to feel it's not worth it. Once you're in low/null sec, fighting to defend your own sov space, or fighting for a 50mil isk contract, you'll think it IS worth whipping out your 150k isk assault fit, or 400k isk heavy fit. Game becomes balanced because as you guys stated, Pub farmers won't want to farm newbies... at least not in their proto gear. PS. Telc, regarding your poker analogy. I see your point, but would argue that someone buying in for $1 when others have $100, generally will NOT win. They may win one or two small pots, but they will get taken down by the big stacks... whether it be due to skill or luck, the big stack will take your money 9/10 times... unless they're "dead money". It's only when you buy in for an amount that can hurt the big stacks, will you have a REALISTIC chance to topple them. (maybe a $50 buy-in, when other players have $100-150)
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 02:11:00 - [5] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Bleh my experience as a militia locked character. TL;DR there is no incentive to gear up. As it stands now I basically have created a militia fit for every weaponized expected role when and where possible, and if not possible stuck with type 1 since type 1s are essentially the same performance as militia but higher fitting costs. . The absolute bottom line, there is not a single piece of equipment you can field that I as a militia locked character cannot kill you in. This includes vehicles. While going proto may increase the amount of effort on my end to kill you. The simple fact I cost nothing to field means I do win in the end regardless on how many times you killed me, My isk efficiency would probably produce an erroneous number. As for better gear they offer very little in performance as a whole (not just guns, modules as well) to the point I almost feel PUNISHED wearing it. Wearing better gear almost feels as though I die much quicker in it vs militia gear life spans. Maybe because the higher stuff gets me shot more often I don't know but my life expectancy going up in tiers is significantly shorter. So essentially there is no reason for you to bring any ISK to a match. This game is trash. I remember watching a CCP dev interview and the dev said that players are going to be suited up in their proto gear going into corp matches. So, it is intended for there to be proto vs proto matches. But what's the point if they want militia corps to be on the same level as proto. They're straying away from what they intended. Militia is NOT on the same level as intended. It's just not completely garbage now. YDUBBS, if you and I are of equal level right now, and you use proto gear, and I use militia gear, you will kill me 4/5 times. In early builds, I you were better than me, and using militia gear, all I had to do was use my proto fit, and I would kill you 4/5 times. Skill played no part before, now it does.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 02:24:00 - [6] - Quote I would refer to my 2nd to last post. This is how the game will balance itself out. You guys are right, using proto gear in pubs will generally not be wise. As it should be... because this would ruin the game for new guys just venturing in high sec (which is effectively what we're playing right now) You WILL want to use your good stuff, for when it matters... regardless of cost. Defending some sov territory? Of course you want to use the good stuff, you don't want to lose your home planet do you? Did you just lose 1mil isk in proto suits in a match in low sec? It's ok, you just won a 50mil isk contract! This will all balance out. RIght now you guys are forget the meta game!
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:00:00 - [7] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: mikegunnz wrote: I would refer to my 2nd to last post. This is how the game will balance itself out. You guys are right, using proto gear in pubs will generally not be wise. As it should be... because this would ruin the game for new guys just venturing in high sec (which is effectively what we're playing right now) You WILL want to use your good stuff, for when it matters... regardless of cost. Defending some sov territory? Of course you want to use the good stuff, you don't want to lose your home planet do you? Did you just lose 1mil isk in proto suits in a match in low sec? It's ok, you just won a 50mil isk contract! This will all balance out. RIght now you guys are forget the meta game! Opposite. I'm talking about the meta-game. That contract will get eaten up in equipment costs. Scrubs can just take contract after contract losing with very little downside since their gear is nonfactor. (You are about to start arguing to use the contract system to balance out **** game design on CCP's part) Part of what I've also argued is that we should have REAL looting so that you get loot from the ACTUAL battlefield. People would then WANT people to gear up to fight them. You wouldn't want to come to hisec since the loot AND ISK was so bad. Perhaps contract system should include a small collateral from the corp that accepts contract. (maybe something like 5% of contract reward) This will make a corp think twice. Also regarding the "****" game design comment... how is it bad game design to want skill to determine as much of the outcome as gear? Almost EVERY good FPS uses this method of progression. As you progress, you get better guns, secondary items, etc. These are better than default gear, but do not make up for a lack of skill in a player. As I said, maybe the damage values should be SLIGHTLY re-evaluated, and maybe cost of the advanced and proto gear should come down by around 10%... but if you go back to old damage values, it will kill the game. Why? Because newer players that join the party six months late, will get WRECKED by all the older players. This will get old fast, and the player population will slowly dwindle, because there will be NO competitiveness. Experienced players with money, will continuously win, and this will snow ball. More wins, mean more isk, meaning even less of an issue of throwing expensive suit into a battle, where a lesser corp will have NO chance of winning. To me, this sounds like you want skill taken out of the equation, and you want to insta-win JUST because you have better gear.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:04:00 - [8] - Quote William HBonney wrote: Isk should matter...but it doesn't ....I am sitting pretty at 20 million...I don't run proto...because I haven't seen the point to ...I should clarify..I run proto pistols because I can....but a type A suit...only when I am hardcore AV and I die a lot will I lose money. That money can be gained back rather quickly though.... EXACTLY!!! This supports my point. It's easy to bank isk, because if you're good, you can run cheap fits. There's no NEED to use expensive fits. (unless you CHOOSE to, maybe if there are other skilled players, and you need that slight edge) Losing isk against militia suits trying to zerg you, isn't a problem. 1. because you'll have saved up TONS of isk. 2. Because you can just as easily switch to a cheap fit that is almost as effective. Let your SKILL do the talking!
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:15:00 - [9] - Quote lol, you haven't proved any point. Your argument doesn't make sense. Risk is there if YOU choose. I refer you to your corp-mate's spreadsheet. It supports my point, that proto fits are still considerably stronger than militia fits. Look at the entire fit... not just the weapon.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:29:00 - [10] - Quote No risk, no reward. If you risk a high end fit, you will have an advantage. This will net you a win against players of equal or lesser skill than you. It will not BUY you a win. You want fits to win matches, I want skill to win matches. As I mentioned before, look at your corp mate's spreadsheet. Proto fits (the entire fit, not just weapons) still have a BIG advantage against milita fits. It's just not a god-mode like it was in prior builds. Clearly, you and I don't agree on this. I'm done debating. You've made your point and I've made mine.

mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:40:00 - [11] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: mikegunnz wrote: No risk, no reward. If you risk a high end fit, you will have an advantage. This will net you a win against players of equal or lesser skill than you. It will not BUY you a win. You want fits to win matches, I want skill to win matches. As I mentioned before, look at your corp mate's spreadsheet. Proto fits (the entire fit, not just weapons) still have a BIG advantage against milita fits. It's just not a god-mode like it was in prior builds. Clearly, you and I don't agree on this. I'm done debating. You've made your point and I've made mine. Right. Because being able to wager matchsticks against $1000 chips repeatedly (until you win) is a cool game for someone to play. Ok, I'll bite. Clearly you don't play poker. (at least not at a high level) A guy walking into a game with $20 in chips, when all players at the table have $2000 in chips, has practically NO chance of walking away with money. This is what you want, you want to have a stack of $2000 in front of you, so that you can just get that ONE hand that will wipe out the little guy. Even if he doubles up several times against you, all you have to do is win ONE hand where you put him all in... because you want to play NO-Limit poker. This is your world. In mine, I'm saying that the new guy, will have a chance, because we should be playing LIMIT poker. You still have an advantage with your big stack, but you have to OUTPLAY the little guy, in order to take his money, because you'll only be able to chip away at him, a little at a time.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:47:00 - [12] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: mikegunnz wrote: I refer you to your corp-mate's spreadsheet. It supports my point, that proto fits are still considerably stronger than militia fits. Look at the entire fit... not just the weapon. The weapon aspect means absolutely nothing is what my spreadsheet is showing. It doesn't matter what weapon you use at your current SP investment, you have practically the same killing power with all of them, so there is no reason to use a higher one. You're right, the weapon aspect means little when its JUST the weapon your talking about. When it's the fit including suits/modules/etc, the differences are much bigger. example all militia fit is free all proto/complex fit is say 150k isk The tanked health and even slight damage advantage the proto fit has, downs the militia player in 12 rounds. The militia player takes 23ish rounds to kill the proto. The proto player is twice as strong! If you take two proto fits, and one uses duvolle, the other uses exile rifle. The full proto fit will be able to eat 2 or so additional bullets... yest not a big difference. BUT, the price difference isn't 150k isk to 0. It's 150k isk to about 80k isk (cant remember exact cost of duvolle)
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:54:00 - [13] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: mikegunnz wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: mikegunnz wrote: No risk, no reward. If you risk a high end fit, you will have an advantage. This will net you a win against players of equal or lesser skill than you. It will not BUY you a win. You want fits to win matches, I want skill to win matches. As I mentioned before, look at your corp mate's spreadsheet. Proto fits (the entire fit, not just weapons) still have a BIG advantage against milita fits. It's just not a god-mode like it was in prior builds. Clearly, you and I don't agree on this. I'm done debating. You've made your point and I've made mine. Right. Because being able to wager matchsticks against $1000 chips repeatedly (until you win) is a cool game for someone to play. Ok, I'll bite. Clearly you don't play poker. (at least not at a high level) A guy walking into a game with $20 in chips, when all players at the table have $2000 in chips, has practically NO chance of walking away with money. This is what you want, you want to have a stack of $2000 in front of you, so that you can just get that ONE hand that will wipe out the little guy. Even if he doubles up several times against you, all you have to do is win ONE hand where you put him all in... because you want to play NO-Limit poker. This is your world. In mine, I'm saying that the new guy, will have a chance, because we should be playing LIMIT poker. You still have an advantage with your big stack, but you have to OUTPLAY the little guy, in order to take his money, because you'll only be able to chip away at him, a little at a time. If the free chip is "worth" basically the same as the $1k chip then my metaphor is just fine. ie 5 chips on either side to ante etc. You are just willfully choosing to interpret it poorly. Your analogy is flawed. There is no "free chip". The "weapon" in poker, is the money you can wager in a bet. Not the stack in front of you. The stack in front of you is your isk. You want to have the bigger stack, and force people all in, because the size of your wager will be HUGE. I want people to play limit poker. The bets are smaller, so the "weapons" are more level. It doesn't matter if you have $2000 in front of you, and I have $100. In limit, I have a chance to outplay you. In no limit, even if I win several hands, your stack will still dwarf mine, and you just need to be able to throw your chips around until you catch me in a bad hand.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 06:37:00 - [14] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: mikegunnz wrote: If you take two proto fits, and one uses duvolle, the other uses exile rifle. The full proto fit will be able to eat 2 or so additional bullets... yest not a big difference. BUT, the price difference isn't 150k isk to 0. It's 150k isk to about 80k isk (cant remember exact cost of duvolle) dont mean to be a stickler; but your example isn't very good. You leave to much out to support your claim. As i'll take it further: Player A VK1 w/ 4 complex shield extenders + duvolle Player B B-series 3 complex shield extenders + duvolle Changed your example. Right here shows how minute this idea of how god like proto gear is. Essentially exact same fits; the only things that separate this two players are 66 shields (2 bullets), but a 1.2 MILLION sp gap. For the cost of ISK and SP for say a proto suit; what you gain is moot. The reason people seem godlike in proto gear is, THEY ARE SKILLED . Look a Regnum, Zitro's, etc. They can kill in pure miltia through proto. The suits doesn't make the player. The only thing the suit does, is it helps in survivability. Mike, im not sure if you have a proto suit; but if you dont; getting one aint easy; in sense, it takes roughly 3 weeks to get a proto suit. For the time needed, it isn't all the great; you can easily be taken out by a tank, a FG, MD's, LR . It simply comes down to players skill Give the exact same fit to two players. One good, one mediocre/bad; and id say 99/100 the good player will win. Not b/c of gear, but skill. Im simply pointing out; that skill does over come gear; but at the same time; higher tiered gear should help in your survivability; but at the moment it doesn't help I totally agree, SP skills matter more than gear. I'm just saying that when you factor in SP/weapons/suits/etc, the new guy gets boned. Playing field doesn't need to be even, but the imbalance gets pretty ridiculous. I'll even concede that the Duvolle should be bumped up SLIGHTLY, and the militia should never have been bumped up to 31. I've said that since the change took place. My argument is that the difference between militia and proto guns shouldn't be 6. Maybe somewhere in between 3.1 and 6. Otherwise it ruins the game for newer players. Want to make it worth while to run the duvolle for experienced players? Make the duvolle cheaper. It makes sense, since the duvolle is now weaker. Maybe a 20% reduction in price?