The bottom line is that this isn't an easy balance and there are many more variables than 2 mercs simply standing 5 meters from each other in open space with gear variants.

I'm not speaking for Mike but I think his point about this essentially being High Sec is good one. I posted a thread called "The Learning Cliff" pre Codex and suggested that there needs to be some kind of balance for new players. Whether that is a gear restriction in High Sec matches or simply an area where new players can get their feet wet without seasoned vets in Proto gear pubstomping is very important to the success of this game.

There does need to be a hook for the new player. They must have some kind of success or at least feel like there is a chance they will be able to before they are 6 months old. For this reason alone, I do think the recent change in damage levels between weapons is a good thing.

That being said....I, much like Telc, hate the fact that I have spent millions of SP to get into Proto gear that I rarely, if ever, use. The risk just isn't currently worth the reward....at least in my opinion.

Though, I can't say that I've ever seen a member of RND not using an ISK GEK or the Killswitch in any game I've been in so I'm not sure what the issue is for you YDUBBS? You do just fine from a KDR perspective and if you're losing too much ISK because of it then you might want to re-evaluate the cost of your fits versus the ISK reward.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that we are currently being rewarded for losing. That will not be the case, per CCP, once you start picking up player issued contracts. Just like how it is for beta corp battles. So, playing with house money when it counts isn't really going to be an option unless you are just testing your abilities as a corp to operate in lower gear variants.

Look at it like this:

Imperfects put up a 20mil ISK contract that PFBHz picks up. The reward would currently be approx 39mil ISK (subtracting the contract fee). If Imperfects fit STD gear and PFBHz fits all proto and PFBHz wins.....Imperfects are, in fact, out that $20mil and whatever it cost to replace your gear. You go home with no ISK and minus a bunch of gear. To me that seems like a pretty good reason to not show up in STD gear.


To Telc:

I'm with you though....I despise the fact that I don't feel like it's worth using my shiny stuff. The real issue is that during beta we just don't have anything to really play for other than the ISK, SP grind (that, by the way, will be repeated), and refining tactics.


Good Discussion with valid arguments on both sides. "Please sir, may I have more"

thats a very good point
the counter to that is if they do take that risk and show up in standard gear and win then they save a bunch of ISK while costing PFBHz 20mil + the cost of the gear lost in the battle

tbh the only proto suit i really question is the heavy just doesnt have enough mod slots imho

Though, I can't say that I've ever seen a member of RND not using an ISK GEK or the Killswitch in any game I've been in so I'm not sure what the issue is for you YDUBBS? You do just fine from a KDR perspective and if you're losing too much ISK because of it then you might want to re-evaluate the cost of your fits versus the ISK reward.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that we are currently being rewarded for losing. That will not be the case, per CCP, once you start picking up player issued contracts. Just like how it is for beta corp battles. So, playing with house money when it counts isn't really going to be an option unless you are just testing your abilities as a corp to operate in lower gear variants.

Look at it like this:

Imperfects put up a 20mil ISK contract that PFBHz picks up. The reward would currently be approx 39mil ISK (subtracting the contract fee). If Imperfects fit STD gear and PFBHz fits all proto and PFBHz wins.....Imperfects are, in fact, out that $20mil and whatever it cost to replace your gear. You go home with no ISK and minus a bunch of gear. To me that seems like a pretty good reason to not show up in STD gear.


To Telc:

I'm with you though....I despise the fact that I don't feel like it's worth using my shiny stuff. The real issue is that during beta we just don't have anything to really play for other than the ISK, SP grind (that, by the way, will be repeated), and refining tactics.


Good Discussion with valid arguments on both sides. "Please sir, may I have more"

The bottom line is that this isn't an easy balance and there are many more variables than 2 mercs simply standing 5 meters from each other in open space with gear variants.

That being said....I, much like Telc, hate the fact that I have spent millions of SP to get into Proto gear that I rarely, if ever, use. The risk just isn't currently worth the reward....at least in my opinion.

This is the thing and it goes straight to something that I've said before and the ideology of the game. I only use my adv or gear or weapons for two reasons. They are when I deem it necessary or if I'm testing out a new suit configuration. If I'm playing against all NPC corp members, then I use militia/STD gear because I figure that my adv gear will not be necessary and therefore I do not have to risk losing that ISK.

The reason why you may have seen myself using adv guns is because maybe you're in a corp that won't easily be put down. So, if I notice that the Imps, PFBHz, Zion, Seraphim, STB, etc are on the other side then I'm going to bring out the gear that I feel is needed to match it. I could cry that they are all using duvolles OR I can go and drop my militia guns and bring out my duvolle.

And that's the point....players need to get out of militia gear if they want to compete. Don't bring the guns closer together and make the GEK, typically, useless. The players should level up and get gear to match. It takes less than two weeks to be able to use a duvolle and type II suit. And you can tango with someone in an ADV suit with a type II if you are competent. The only issue may be is if they're going up against a proto suit. And honestly, the only group of people that I see using proto suits and gear in every match are the Imps. So, if you run into a match with them, here and there, so be it. But don't bring all of the guns together.



Also, we don't have no more than 5 guys with killswitches/duvolles and only 3 of us out of the entire corp has PROTO suits. And, only one of uses adv level gear in all of the games that he's in. Many of us use militia and STD gear in some of the matches where miltia fits are really all that are necessary.

i agree that weapons are too close together now. However, old weapon values were too powerful... mainly because along with SP skills trained, a new player stood NO chance. Right now, there is NO real reason to use proto guns.

Solution, return the militia and standard variants back to where they were last build. Bump the proto weapons ALMOST back to where they were before, but keep them just short of old damage, AND reduce their price by a third. This (imo) fixes the problem for both sides. New players don't get auto-slaughtered by vets using high end gear, unless they get out played. Vets have a reason to use proto guns because they are a little more powerful, but also dont cost an arm and a leg to equip.

Compromise people. Neither the old build or this build are/were perfect, in regards to weapons damage.

This is part of the problem.

People think they are doing a good thing by encouraging CCP to homogenize the game.

Your logic is that somehow if weapon damage would be a little lower here and suit tanks a little weaker there they'd "have a chance".

The reality is that the players coming into this game are just flat out bad.

I've never played against a worse player base than Dust514s.

If you look at the number of bullets it takes to kill ANYONE on the field its REALLLY LOW.

Like 20-30 low.

What's happening with newbs is that they simply can't aim and shoot.

They can after they get their bearings and learn the game a bit.

At which point they have built some SP and can start using some of the more interesting bits of the system.

You guys are encouraging CCP to "balance" a shooter for people that can't aim, move, shoot, use timing or use tactics.

Why are you comparing the Duvolle with the militia? The issue is, let's say, the Exile & the GEK. They shouldn't be so close to each other in damage.

You're comparing extremes to suit your opinion but ignoring where the real problem is.

lol, wth game did you come from? 20 bullets to kill someone is low?

Spoken like someone who has no idea what he's talking about. Did my middle school level math confuse you poor fools? It's not a comparison of extremes.

Put into simple terms, if you don't like how small the gap is between proto and basic weapons, then skill up and the gap is larger. Quit QQing about the guns being so close together when you can personally change that in your own skill list.

Skills ARE the balance between skill and gear. Good AR's are only given full potential when given given full skills. There is a larger gap between a basic at max level and a proto at max level than a basic at minimum level and a proto at minimum level.


If you ignore this you are ignoring the entire system set up in this game and only you are to blame for not knowing the difference. And then you inevitably fail since you can't wrap your head around basic math.

If you have a Duvolle but no weapon damage skills and face off against someone running a basic with maxed weapon damage skills, you are at a disadvantage. And it's your own fault for it.

Numbers are fine and good, but meaningless as well. You talk of 100 pt damage difference, but when u look ingame that is 3 bullets. Let me say it again THREE bullets to separate a million plus sp differential. Also these 3 shots, you are talking about milliseconds of a difference, thusly no difference as been said; as u are talking about a tap of the R1 button

You talk of 100 pt damage difference, but when u look ingame that is 3 bullets. Let me say it again THREE bullets to separate a million plus sp differential

Numbers being meaningless. I feel sorry for every math teacher who has ever tried to teach you anything.

First, you said 3 bullets in one second.

Then you said that's a difference in milliseconds. Very well put, if only I had your level of intellect.

A millisecond is a thousandth (1/1,000) of a second. Also, 750 RPM means 12.5 bullets per second, not 3. Let me quote you again incase you forgot what you said:



Ermahgerd, yer per, per terchers....

Ok, now that's done with, yes, you are correct that a certain number of bullets are the difference of 100 ish damage. But that's DAMAGE PER SECOND. Gun fights are over very quickly in most cases. Usually only lasting 1-5 seconds. Now, in that 5 seconds would you rather your Duvolle be doing 532.8125 Damage per second or 426.25 Damage per second?

In that 5 second confrontation if you have maxed skills you have done a full 532.8125 more damage than the other guy with no skills and the same gun. Don't tell me math the is meaningless. Come back when you learn some basic math and we'll have a real conversation.

Lol.

You have 600 likes on the forum sucking up but can't manage to gear....get ******* good. Seriously your post was like a highlight of scrubby denial.

Spoken like someone who has no idea what he's talking about. Did my middle school level math confuse you poor fools? It's not a comparison of extremes.

Put into simple terms, if you don't like how small the gap is between proto and basic weapons, then skill up and the gap is larger. Quit QQing about the guns being so close together when you can personally change that in your own skill list.

Skills ARE the balance between skill and gear. Good AR's are only given full potential when given given full skills. There is a larger gap between a basic at max level and a proto at max level than a basic at minimum level and a proto at minimum level.


If you ignore this you are ignoring the entire system set up in this game and only you are to blame for not knowing the difference. And then you inevitably fail since you can't wrap your head around basic math.

If you have a Duvolle but no weapon damage skills and face off against someone running a basic with maxed weapon damage skills, you are at a disadvantage. And it's your own fault for it.

I guess you can pat yourself on the back for how great this game is going to be with flat gear?

Here's the other side -

I killed a decent gun the other day like 3-4x times in his proto suit with a militia shotgun.

Some of you think that's worth bragging over but I think it's pretty much trash.

I'm killing a dude and I have no points whatsoever in shotguns but its just lololol on my side.

He was willing to risk something in fighting me and my squad. He GEARED to fight us. He was using the weapon he'd skilled up in.

People in militia gear and BPO assault rifles are risking nothing.

They can just keep respawning and zerging because it doesn't matter.

If you think about the implications in this for Lowsec and Nullsec it's pretty ugly.

There needs to be HARD gear checks for participating in those fights (I'd like the rewards reduced in hisec so that proto is not economical for people when there is lowsec to fight in).

I don't want to fight people that can't be bothered to RISK anything or PREPARE (ie get the SP together to get fitted in the first place).

My corp is prepared and ready to risk, are you?

First off, you really need to get some p**** and calm down. And don't try to insult me about math because if you don't have a degree in math, then you can't talk to me about it.

Anyway, jackass, you are STILL comparing a duvolle to a militia grade assault rifle. Do your "middle school" math calculations comparing the GEK and the Exile and tell me if the gap isn't narrow. If the GEK had a higher rate of fire than the Exile, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

But my whole point is, as things are now, purchasing the GEK or the blindfire is pointless. Why purchase the GEK when the Exile comes close enough to doing the same damage and it's free.

Maybe if you stop practicing your middle school math and learned how to read, then you would see that my issue is the (almost) negligible gap between the exile and the gek....and nothing else.

ahahhahhaha look at the little moron rage. you obviously have no grip on reality(since when does having a degree mean **** beyond better pay) so I doubt you have any better grip on this game, and given that you are such a bitchy little troll, my guess is that you are pissed of that you cant buy your victories any more, sad sad skill-less little man.

Having a degree means you've been educated. And you can't insult someone's knowledge about a subject unless you've been educated on it...at least on their level or past it.

I don't even know you and you jump in here as if we've crossed paths or something. I'm not doing any worse than I've done before. Your statement is just silly and a fail troll attempt, desperate for attention. So, savor this moment because I won't pay you anymore mind on this.

Wow, u really want to be literal. Im sorry i didnt want to calc the exact time it takes for 3 bullets to be shot, but that a generalization would get the point across.. talk about being anal

I guess you can pat yourself on the back for how great this game is going to be with flat gear?

I killed a decent gun the other day like 3-4x times in his proto suit with a militia shotgun. Some of you think that's worth bragging over but I think it's pretty much trash. I'm killing a dude and I have no points whatsoever in shotguns but its just lololol on my side.

People in militia gear and BPO assault rifles are risking nothing.