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Berserker007
Imperfects
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Posted - 2012.12.29 23:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
mikegunnz wrote:Telcontar Dunedain wrote:I guess you can pat yourself on the back for how great this game is going to be with flat gear?
Here's the other side -
I killed a decent gun the other day like 3-4x times in his proto suit with a militia shotgun.
Some of you think that's worth bragging over but I think it's pretty much trash.
I'm killing a dude and I have no points whatsoever in shotguns but its just lololol on my side.
He was willing to risk something in fighting me and my squad. He GEARED to fight us. He was using the weapon he'd skilled up in.
People in militia gear and BPO assault rifles are risking nothing.
They can just keep respawning and zerging because it doesn't matter.
If you think about the implications in this for Lowsec and Nullsec it's pretty ugly.
There needs to be HARD gear checks for participating in those fights (I'd like the rewards reduced in hisec so that proto is not economical for people when there is lowsec to fight in).
I don't want to fight people that can't be bothered to RISK anything or PREPARE (ie get the SP together to get fitted in the first place).
My corp is prepared and ready to risk, are you? I'll try and counter your argument. - The guy you killed with a shotgun. That's not a militia vs proto argument. That's a gun balance argument. I'd say the shotty, particularly the militia shotty is a little OP. That aside, if you killed someone with a shotty, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. (either you lucky or good enough to get near him OR he was bad enough to allow you near him) Shotties are not effective at longer ranges. -You say militia can zerg. Good for them, if it's so effective, you can slap on your militia gear and do it too. If you CHOOSE to risk isk for the advantage of using proto gear, that's your choice. The reality is, right now, if corp A is better than corp B, and corp A uses proto gear than corp B, Corp A will win. Pretty easily. If Corp A is better, but Corp B uses better gear, Corp A still has a chance to win... meaning SKILL plays a role in Dust. (which is a FPS, in case you forgot) Either way, Corp A wins. In prior builds, this was not the case. The team with more play time and/or money, won. (unless the "poor" team had MUCH higher skill) To say that this has something to do with risk is rediculous. In prior builds, fits mattered A LOT more. Unless skill of players was very uneven, the team with better fits almost always won. You spend more money, you're almost GUARANTEED a win. Where exactly is the risk in that?NOW, the gear still plays a considerable role, but SKILL matters as much if not more. My $.02
will say; in your "gun balance" quote; that IS about militia vs proto; as you need to take into account the time and requirements. If you look at things now with AR's or even SMG's ; the effectiveness b/t the standard/militia-> proto isn't that noticeable. One thing i have noticed is the amount of people running B-series & even proto suits w/ exile AR's. You know why? Because for the cost reduction, the exile AR is suffice enough to handle most situations that given how you setup your suit, there isn't a reason for a high cost weapon
Yes, no doubt a guy running a T2 suits can kill a worse player in a B-series; but the main issue now in reference to militia/basic vs proto isn't suits or use of "gadgets" (not outside the bedroom, aye-thank-you); but WEAPONS.
Unless CCP plans to release into on Tech 2 or Tech 3 weapons (if will be any), & when they might be added to the game (assume wouldn't happen till full release w/ months into it); the reduction of damage, has limited the need to specialize past certain points for weapons. As unless there is an actual NOTICEABLE difference from the passive skill effects; there may not be a reason to go past say lv3 OP of any weapon (unless want the proficiency ability).
With AR's as an example can be a bit shoddy b/c there still is a 3pt different in damage (which still is small, but people will argue can "see" a difference), but SMG's is even worse. For 610k SP you gain 2 points of addition damage. Now ever build since replication i've had proto SMG's along w/ the AR; however, there is less of a need for it now, that the toxin has gained a point of damage.
SO yes, there is an issue now w/ weapons that the "damage centralization" (as i call) has caused since being implemented. Being primarily and AR user (yet, also have smg, fg, lr, md) i have noticed the massive (yes, may disagree on my terminology here) decrease in GEK's used. I notice names in game that like myself always ran a GEK, yet now run the Exile instead. Why you say? B/c you dont need to spend 17k isk each time you die, for 1 damage point more |
Berserker007
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
206
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Posted - 2012.12.30 06:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
mikegunnz wrote:
If you take two proto fits, and one uses duvolle, the other uses exile rifle.
The full proto fit will be able to eat 2 or so additional bullets... yest not a big difference.
BUT, the price difference isn't 150k isk to 0. It's 150k isk to about 80k isk (cant remember exact cost of duvolle)
dont mean to be a stickler; but your example isn't very good. You leave to much out to support your claim.
As i'll take it further:
Player A
VK1 w/ 4 complex shield extenders + duvolle
Player B
B-series 3 complex shield extenders + duvolle
Changed your example. Right here shows how minute this idea of how god like proto gear is. Essentially exact same fits; the only things that separate this two players are 66 shields (2 bullets), but a 1.2 MILLION sp gap. For the cost of ISK and SP for say a proto suit; what you gain is moot.
The reason people seem godlike in proto gear is, THEY ARE SKILLED . Look a Regnum, Zitro's, etc. They can kill in pure miltia through proto. The suits doesn't make the player. The only thing the suit does, is it helps in survivability.
Mike, im not sure if you have a proto suit; but if you dont; getting one aint easy; in sense, it takes roughly 3 weeks to get a proto suit. For the time needed, it isn't all the great; you can easily be taken out by a tank, a FG, MD's, LR . It simply comes down to players skill
Give the exact same fit to two players. One good, one mediocre/bad; and id say 99/100 the good player will win. Not b/c of gear, but skill. Im simply pointing out; that skill does over come gear; but at the same time; higher tiered gear should help in your survivability; but at the moment it doesn't help |
Berserker007
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
206
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Posted - 2012.12.30 21:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Overlord Ulath wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Overlord Ulath wrote:I skipped the majority of this trash. I can't bear to hear the "I'm paying more money than everyone else so I should always win" QQ.
As someone said earlier, skill eats gear but gear is the tie breaker. This is not entirely true, but pretty close. Skill eats gear, skill point total and allocation counterbalances skill to an extent, and gear is the tie breaker.
Let me put it this way:
Weaponry Lvl. 5 = +10% damage
AR Proficiency Lvl. 5 = +15% damage
Duvolle - Damage 34.1 - RoF 750 - Acc 57.2
Gek-38 - Damage 32.5 - RoF 750 - Acc 56.6
"Exile" AR - Damage 31 - RoF 750 - Acc 56
Now, if you have skilled up nothing with the basic AR proficiency (the weapon we hear the QQ the most about) or weaponry you are doing 750 RPM x 31 damage per bullet/60 seconds or 387.5 damage per second.
With both skilled up, you are looking at 31 damage per bullet + 25% x 750 RPM/60 seconds or 484.375 Damage per second
NOW, with a proto weapon, say the Duvolle, let's do that math again. 34.1 damage per bullet + 25% x 750 RPM/60 seconds is 532.8125 Damage per second.
That's a difference of 48.4375 damage per second between a Duvolle and a basic at max level.
That's a difference of 145.3125 damage per second from a person with no skills in damage compared to a person maxed out on AR proficiency
And remember that is DAMAGE PER SECOND
Lastly, Duvolle with no skill Vs. Duvolle with skill:
106.5625 DAMAGE PER SECOND
145.3125 damage per second in your favor and you think spending the time to get those higher leveled rifles doesn't matter? Grow up and learn some math scrubs.
TL;DR: If you skill up, you get much better odds with better gear than if you don't. 145.3125 damage per second difference between no skill Basic AR and all skill Proto AR. Learn math and quit QQing. Why are you comparing the Duvolle with the militia? The issue is, let's say, the Exile & the GEK. They shouldn't be so close to each other in damage. You're comparing extremes to suit your opinion but ignoring where the real problem is. Spoken like someone who has no idea what he's talking about. Did my middle school level math confuse you poor fools? It's not a comparison of extremes. Put into simple terms, if you don't like how small the gap is between proto and basic weapons, then skill up and the gap is larger. Quit QQing about the guns being so close together when you can personally change that in your own skill list. Skills ARE the balance between skill and gear. Good AR's are only given full potential when given given full skills. There is a larger gap between a basic at max level and a proto at max level than a basic at minimum level and a proto at minimum level. If you ignore this you are ignoring the entire system set up in this game and only you are to blame for not knowing the difference. And then you inevitably fail since you can't wrap your head around basic math. If you have a Duvolle but no weapon damage skills and face off against someone running a basic with maxed weapon damage skills, you are at a disadvantage. And it's your own fault for it.
Numbers are fine and good, but meaningless as well. You talk of 100 pt damage difference, but when u look ingame that is 3 bullets. Let me say it again THREE bullets to separate a million plus sp differential. Also these 3 shots, you are talking about milliseconds of a difference, thusly no difference as been said; as u are talking about a tap of the R1 button |
Berserker007
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
206
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Posted - 2012.12.30 22:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Overlord Ulath wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Numbers are fine and good, but meaningless as well. You talk of 100 pt damage difference, but when u look ingame that is 3 bullets. Let me say it again THREE bullets to separate a million plus sp differential. Also these 3 shots, you are talking about milliseconds of a difference, thusly no difference as been said; as u are talking about a tap of the R1 button Numbers being meaningless. I feel sorry for every math teacher who has ever tried to teach you anything. First, you said 3 bullets in one second. Then you said that's a difference in milliseconds. Very well put, if only I had your level of intellect.  A millisecond is a thousandth (1/1,000) of a second. Also, 750 RPM means 12.5 bullets per second, not 3. Let me quote you again incase you forgot what you said: Quote:You talk of 100 pt damage difference, but when u look ingame that is 3 bullets. Let me say it again THREE bullets to separate a million plus sp differential Ermahgerd, yer per, per terchers.... Ok, now that's done with, yes, you are correct that a certain number of bullets are the difference of 100 ish damage. But that's DAMAGE PER SECOND. Gun fights are over very quickly in most cases. Usually only lasting 1-5 seconds. Now, in that 5 seconds would you rather your Duvolle be doing 532.8125 Damage per second or 426.25 Damage per second? In that 5 second confrontation if you have maxed skills you have done a full 532.8125 more damage than the other guy with no skills and the same gun. Don't tell me math the is meaningless. Come back when you learn some basic math and we'll have a real conversation.
Wow, u really want to be literal. Im sorry i didnt want to calc the exact time it takes for 3 bullets to be shot, but that a generalization would get the point across.. talk about being anal |
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