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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1182
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Posted - 2014.12.28 22:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have seen forum entries that speak to forcing people to pick one role and stick to it.
This frightens me in a n.a.z.i kind of way.
1. There is not enough team level communication prior to a match in order to designate how many of each role will be played. For instance, I wouldn't want to end up on a team with ten snipers, five logis and one assault. Allowing players to change roles during a match allows a team to naturally balance itself in accordance with the needs particular to that battle. If a needed role is absent, someone should be able to change into that role in order to support the team.
2. There are various situations where multiple roles are needed. Sometimes, only one soldier is left behind to defend an objective. That soldier may want to lay some proxies and then change into a dropsuit more conducive to a gunfight. There is nothing inherently or philosophically wrong with that. Only highly regimented and scary tyrants want to take away the individual's right to self expression in multiple facets.
3. Humans have what is called need for competence, which essentially means that when you master one skill, then you GET BORED if you don't progress to mastering another skill. If you force people to just play one role in a match, or all of the time, then you will effectively create a BORING game. Thanks for making life mundane.
Bandwidth has already made the game much more boring already.
Please don't force us to play one role, you controlling despots.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
16326
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Posted - 2014.12.28 22:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Clone D wrote:
3. Humans have what is called need for competence, which essentially means that when you master one skill, then you GET BORED if you don't progress to mastering another skill. If you force people to just play one role in a match, or all of the time, then you will effectively create a BORING game. Thanks for making life mundane.
Humans are rarely if ever competent.
Band width only affects one role and all it does is suggest if you want to be able to use the benefits of that role you need to keep using it.
You cannot swap out of being a heavy but keep your Heavy Machine Gun. You cannot swap out of scout and keep your Cloak and bonuses, nor can you swap out of Assault and have your magazine or heat build up bonuses.
If you want the benefits of Logistical suit bandwidth you need to remain in a Logisitcs role on the field until your role is complete or you die.
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
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LUGMOS
YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE
1319
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Posted - 2014.12.28 22:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nobody forces you...
You could always switch to Assault during the match. The team and you probably won't like spawning at the MCC every time you die though...
Official QuafeGäó Advocate
Anti-FoTM Prof. V
Forum Scavenger Prof. V
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Sequal's Back
Les Desanusseurs
39
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Posted - 2014.12.28 22:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:Nobody forces you...
You could always switch to Assault during the match. The team and you probably won't like spawning at the MCC every time you die though...
Which means that you are forced to stay as a logi.. nice.. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11842
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Posted - 2014.12.28 22:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bandwidth doesn't get in my way of switching roles. If I play as a logi and set a bunch of uplinks, I can switch to an assault when I feel my team is doing alright enough, and still keep 2 of those uplinks active (an assault can support 2 uplinks). Often the value of the equipment deployed is outweighed by the value of the role you're switching to, so don't worry so much about losing some equipment, and just switch roles if you really feel you need to.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1183
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Posted - 2014.12.28 22:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Bandwidth doesn't get in my way of switching roles. If I play as a logi and set a bunch of uplinks, I can switch to an assault when I feel my team is doing alright enough, and still keep 2 of those uplinks active (an assault can support 2 uplinks). Often the value of the equipment deployed is outweighed by the value of the role you're switching to, so don't worry so much about losing some equipment, and just switch roles if you really feel you need to.
Some people in the forums are saying that people should be limited to playing only one role. That is what this thread is about.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
635
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Posted - 2014.12.28 22:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Clone D wrote:
Some people in the forums are saying that people should be limited to playing only one role. That is what this thread is about.
Who says that? And on what subjects?
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3624
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Posted - 2014.12.28 22:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bandwith is a good idea.....I switch to many roles in pubs and pcs. Not being allowed to do everything at once is good for balance. There is nothing in this game that requires anyone to be limited to one role besides sp (and that increases as you play).
Shield tanking is hard mode /period.
> Check RND out here
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11843
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Posted - 2014.12.28 22:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Clone D wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Bandwidth doesn't get in my way of switching roles. If I play as a logi and set a bunch of uplinks, I can switch to an assault when I feel my team is doing alright enough, and still keep 2 of those uplinks active (an assault can support 2 uplinks). Often the value of the equipment deployed is outweighed by the value of the role you're switching to, so don't worry so much about losing some equipment, and just switch roles if you really feel you need to. Some people in the forums are saying that people should be limited to playing only one role. That is what this thread is about.
If that's the case, I don't see the point of this thread because that would NEVER happen. Its extremely unpopular, it would require so much changes to the game's progression and fitting system, it would require SP refunds, and it would mean a lot of people would run out of things to spend SP on.
Please link those supposed comments and threads where the "despots" are asking for players to be locked in a single role. I'm having trouble believing you.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1183
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Posted - 2014.12.28 23:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Clone D wrote:
Some people in the forums are saying that people should be limited to playing only one role. That is what this thread is about.
Who says that? And on what subjects?
Here is one of a few examples I have seen recently:
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:Alot of the community had the mentality that "you pick a role and you stick to it". Im looking forward to seeing this mentality spread out to more classes. No more using scout speed and invisibility to get to a depot and switch to a heavy. No more assaults switching to dual swarm commando. In the New Year, these are some changes I intend to push hard for.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Timtron Victory
Tech Guard
RISE of LEGION
127
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Posted - 2014.12.28 23:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
I am liking the whole bandwidth idea. I was defending an objective myself and tried to drop repair nanohives and switch to a heavy but the nanohives disappeared. I actually had to play smart and didnt "cheat", it makes it impossible for one player to defend an objective against an army of players which is a superb idea. If only CCP can fix redline sniping I would love this game.
New Year Resolution: Don't play dust
Proud Christian
Jesus Loves You
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HOWDIDHEKILLME
Dying to Reload
685
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Posted - 2014.12.28 23:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Clone D wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Bandwidth doesn't get in my way of switching roles. If I play as a logi and set a bunch of uplinks, I can switch to an assault when I feel my team is doing alright enough, and still keep 2 of those uplinks active (an assault can support 2 uplinks). Often the value of the equipment deployed is outweighed by the value of the role you're switching to, so don't worry so much about losing some equipment, and just switch roles if you really feel you need to. Some people in the forums are saying that people should be limited to playing only one role. That is what this thread is about.
I agree bandwidth is the worst addition ever!
Lonewolf till I die
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Chimichanga66605
Vader's Taco Shack
270
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Posted - 2014.12.28 23:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
This is why I got 5 PRO suits & 2 ADV. Variety is the spice of life.
Oh, I have yet to be affected by bandwidth.
Not really sure what peoples' problems are with it, seems fine to me.
Mk.0 Specialist, Republic Loyalist
"Badassery is not born, but often thrust upon you." -Franklin Delano Roosevelt
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
635
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Posted - 2014.12.28 23:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
When someone says to stick to one role it generally means to get good at one role before branching off into other suits/roles. The guy who did want to force people into one role does not reflect the community as far as I can see.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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LAVALLOIS Nash
QcGOLD
382
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Posted - 2014.12.29 00:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Humans are rarely if ever competent.
Band width only affects one role and all it does is suggest if you want to be able to use the benefits of that role you need to keep using it.
You cannot swap out of being a heavy but keep your Heavy Machine Gun. You cannot swap out of scout and keep your Cloak and bonuses, nor can you swap out of Assault and have your magazine or heat build up bonuses.
If you want the benefits of Logistical suit bandwidth you need to remain in a Logisitcs role on the field until your role is complete or you die.
You arent comparing it properly though. The logi role is a premeptive role, the other roles are more reactive. The equipment i put out is all passive, and it might only be useful minutes from now. It might get destroyed, ect.
When someone puts on a cloak scout and runs to a depot, then switches to an HMG, they have benefited from the role without being a user of it. If someone wanted to rush a point with an HMG, they should have spawned with one and got there. Someone who switches to a double swarm commando just to take out a dropship and then switches back to their assault is also doing the same thing.
No one else has to be dedicated HMG, or dedicated scout, or dedicated AV. Yet I have to be dedicated logi and other non logi suits can still deploy equipment. Thats the problem here. If i have to be locked to a role because "logis should stay logis", why should an assault get instant smashing AV power for a few seconds and then back to assault? Why can a proto assault put out as much equipment as a standard logi? This needs a balance rework.
It wasnt my idea to lock people to one role. But since folks like you want to see that happen, it should happen consistently. If I have to make sacrifices in the name of role purity, so should you.
Clone D wrote:
Some people in the forums are saying that people should be limited to playing only one role. That is what this thread is about.
Who says that? And on what subjects?
[/quote]
Here is one of a few examples I have seen recently:
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:Alot of the community had the mentality that "you pick a role and you stick to it". Im looking forward to seeing this mentality spread out to more classes. No more using scout speed and invisibility to get to a depot and switch to a heavy. No more assaults switching to dual swarm commando. In the New Year, these are some changes I intend to push hard for.
[/quote]
The reason i said that is because people who benefit from multiple roles still can, but my role has been nerfed. i feel that if everyone has to share a similar pain, it would wake people up as to the hypocrisy of one role being locked but not of another.
If you made this entire thread because of that comment, thats unfortunate, as I hate the limitations that the bandwidth system has placed on me. |
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1188
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 01:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:If you made this entire thread because of that comment...
No, bro. I have read other comments of players saying that they want to lock players into a single role as well. Just trying to stamp out the fire before it starts.
Knowing CCP, a few comments like this can turn into v1.11 real fast.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1827
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Posted - 2014.12.29 01:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
loads of equipment used belongs to the logi not to every other role. if you want to change role do it. but you are not going to keep your previously role aswell.
people are not talking about forcing people to play only 1 role. they are talking about making sure people who play a role don't get to play other roles at the same time which is exactly what we used to have before bandwidth. before bandwidth anyone including vehicle users and heavies could be a logistics without fielding the suit at all or by changing out of it just by spamming all their equipment. this was wrong and to me is 1 player playing 2 roles. all bandwidth has done is ensured players only play one role at a time. they are not intending for players to only ever be able to play a single role on the battlefield.
All Hail Legion
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2437
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Posted - 2014.12.29 01:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Clone D wrote:LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:If you made this entire thread because of that comment... No, bro. I have read other comments of players saying that they want to lock players into a single role as well. Just trying to stamp out the fire before it starts. Knowing CCP, a few comments like this can turn into v1.11 real fast.
I agree with you. I've seen far too many peeps who want to lock peeps into roles and it bothers the hell out of me.
It's more worrisome and soul-destroying than the tiericide faction, imo.
PSN: RationalSpark
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1601
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Posted - 2014.12.29 01:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:
The reason i said that is because people who benefit from multiple roles still can, but my role has been nerfed. i feel that if everyone has to share a similar pain, it would wake people up as to the hypocrisy of one role being locked but not of another.
If you made this entire thread because of that comment, thats unfortunate, as I hate the limitations that the bandwidth system has placed on me.
I understood where you were coming from and I believe so did Clone D and I believe that we three are in agreement about this topic .
You mentioned what he quoted in one of his posts but there are people who love the idea of a logi being " locked " into there role .
I for one can agree that this should be across the board then , all roles should function this way and if someone is in a scout suit and they see the enemy coming , they decide to switch suits to a heavy to counter , then that heavy suit should start with the scouts HP's and same for any other role or suit .
This should be the standard since it's basically only regulated to logistics where one can only place a certain amount of materials in play , the same should be for everyone .
Lock into one role it should be for all , not just logistics .
If your in a suit with a small amount of HP's and switch at a depot to confront an encounter then they should start with the previous suits HP's . If your in a larger HP suit and switch then you should have full health if you haven't taken on any damage .
This might be stretching it but since were on this topic , I would rather NO ONE should be able to switch suits at a storage depot , they remain in the suit that they choose until they die or suicide .
Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1601
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 01:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:
I agree with you. I've seen far too many peeps who want to lock peeps into roles and it bothers the hell out of me.
It's more worrisome and soul-destroying than the tiericide faction, imo.
Agreed .
Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
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Operative 1174 Uuali
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
192
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Posted - 2014.12.29 01:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
TL:DR but,
You can create multiple playstation accounts and then have separate DUST accounts. I have four accounts with my main sniper/ADS/infantry character then a Cal tank, Gal tank, Cal Assault/logi and Amarr gear characters.
What's the problem? Well, other than proto vet players being pitted against newer, less versatile players.
I'm better than laser focused; I'm hybrid focused.
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robin williams' ghost
whisky tango foxtrot sir
380
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Posted - 2014.12.29 02:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
I'm one of those guys who will tell you to pick a role and stick with it. What is more effective in battle? Someone who is full proto in a single role who can do their job effectively, or someone who has a little of everything but isn't good at any of them? The answer should be obvious. Sure, once you get a specific role maxed out you can spread out to another role then another and so on, but I've seen too many people that think having every weapon and every suit early on will make them better and it is so not true. So I will continue to tell people they should stick with one role until they are proficient in it.
Robin Williams endorses this corp
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1424
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Posted - 2014.12.29 06:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Clone D wrote:I have seen forum entries that speak to forcing people to pick one role and stick to it.
This frightens me in a n.a.z.i kind of way.
1. There is not enough team level communication prior to a match in order to designate how many of each role will be played. For instance, I wouldn't want to end up on a team with ten snipers, five logis and one assault. Allowing players to change roles during a match allows a team to naturally balance itself in accordance with the needs particular to that battle. If a needed role is absent, someone should be able to change into that role in order to support the team.
2. There are various situations where multiple roles are needed. Sometimes, only one soldier is left behind to defend an objective. That soldier may want to lay some proxies and then change into a dropsuit more conducive to a gunfight. There is nothing inherently or philosophically wrong with that. Only highly regimented and scary tyrants want to take away the individual's right to self expression in multiple facets.
3. Humans have what is called need for competence, which essentially means that when you master one skill, then you GET BORED if you don't progress to mastering another skill. If you force people to just play one role in a match, or all of the time, then you will effectively create a BORING game. Thanks for making life mundane.
Bandwidth has already made the game much more boring already.
Please don't force us to play one role, you controlling despots.
10/10
Lol
Good one OP. You almost had me,right up until i figured out you were complaining your assault/scout can't deploy as much as my logistics.
No one is 'forcing' you or anyone else to stay as logistics.
You have just gotten so stuck in your ways that changing inconveniences you,so you complain.
You are the one that is forcing you to stay in a logistics suit.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Kuruld Sengar
Kuruld Galain
102
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 06:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sequal's Back wrote:LUGMOS wrote:Nobody forces you...
You could always switch to Assault during the match. The team and you probably won't like spawning at the MCC every time you die though... Which means that you are forced to stay as a logi.. nice..
Forced? You are implying that the average player cares about the success of their teammates? Hell no, I'm in it for me  |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
18088
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 06:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bandwidth is not forcing you to stay one role.
CPM 1
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
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Coincidental Jones
Krullefor Organization
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 09:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
I don't get the "locked in" logo mentality. If I run Logo, I drop a couple of Uplinks, use my Rep Tool and Needle to keep my squad running, and have some Hives in reserve. By the time my squad's needing ammo, one of my links is probably either exhausted or destroyed anyway.
And if they're not, it's because my team doesn't need both of my uplinks running.
Plus, this system lets me hot-swap at a depot, or change to a more directly offensive suit without too much worry. |
SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
728
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 10:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Clone D wrote:
Bandwidth has already made the game much more boring already.
Please don't force us to play one role, you controlling despots.
I am having the total opposite experience. Bandwidth has made playing logi amazing again. I am once again being rewarded for my dedication to my role and it feels great.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1202
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Posted - 2014.12.29 11:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
Meee One wrote:10/10 Lol Good one OP. You almost had me,right up until i figured out you were complaining your assault/scout can't deploy as much as my logistics. No one is 'forcing' you or anyone else to stay as logistics. You have just gotten so stuck in your ways that changing inconveniences you,so you complain. You are the one that is forcing you to stay in a logistics suit.
I added this to the OP:
I AM NOT SAYING THAT BANDWIDTH FORCES US TO PLAY ONE ROLE. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PUSH FOR OUR BEING FORCED TO PLAY ONE ROLE.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
766
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 13:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
I haven't put as much game time is as I would like.. but I can tell you that 80% of the time I'm put on a losing team with the new bandwidth changes.
Matches are defiantly one sided now and if there is going to be a flip of power you see it coming and there is no surprise.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5754
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 13:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:But I can tell you that 80% of the time I'm put on a losing team with the new bandwidth changes. Are you solo queuing? If so, that's why. Stop solo queuing and you will start winning matches.
My advice to you, playa...
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1411
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Posted - 2014.12.29 14:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Clone D wrote:
3. Humans have what is called need for competence, which essentially means that when you master one skill, then you GET BORED if you don't progress to mastering another skill. If you force people to just play one role in a match, or all of the time, then you will effectively create a BORING game. Thanks for making life mundane.
Humans are rarely if ever competent. Band width only affects one role and all it does is suggest if you want to be able to use the benefits of that role you need to keep using it. You cannot swap out of being a heavy but keep your Heavy Machine Gun. You cannot swap out of scout and keep your Cloak and bonuses, nor can you swap out of Assault and have your magazine or heat build up bonuses. If you want the benefits of Logistical suit bandwidth you need to remain in a Logisitcs role on the field until your role is complete or you die.
You get to drive a tank and keep any of those bonuses.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1411
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Posted - 2014.12.29 14:09:00 -
[32] - Quote
Also, prior to bandwidth you also lost all your Logi bonuses.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1411
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 14:11:00 -
[33] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Bandwidth doesn't get in my way of switching roles. If I play as a logi and set a bunch of uplinks, I can switch to an assault when I feel my team is doing alright enough, and still keep 2 of those uplinks active (an assault can support 2 uplinks). Often the value of the equipment deployed is outweighed by the value of the role you're switching to, so don't worry so much about losing some equipment, and just switch roles if you really feel you need to.
and if I lay hives so I can forge gun?
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1411
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 14:22:00 -
[34] - Quote
The truth is this is not about Logistics or roles, Rep tools and injectors are not affected by it at all. It is about equipment. People were unhappy that some players were achieving high scores using equipment while still being able to do other things.
Because, that's why.
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
137
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Posted - 2014.12.29 14:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
I think being skilled (fully) into multiple roles is great, and the mark of an experienced player. 
I think squadding up and pre-battle communication should be encouraged and facilitated in any way possible, including providing a game mode where these things ARE NOT allowed, just for those DUST players who don't like communicating and coordinating and are looking for that solo experience.
WITHIN A BATTLE, I think there should be a price to switching roles. Switching not prohibited, just a cost which must be factored in before switching in a battle. Why? Because it puts the mid-level player, skilled in only one role, on a slightly more even playing field with the very experienced player fully skilled in multiple roles. I think that is good for the game. It also encourages, pre-battle coordination (above) which I also think is good for the game and sets DUST apart from other games.
I was not a fan of the Bandwidth idea because I thought there were simpler, more elegant ways to address the stated goal of stopping equipment spam. Nevertheless, in the process of reducing equipment spam, Bandwidth does provide a penalty to SOME role switching in a battle. Many see it as unfair because it does not apply the same penalty across all roles. 
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5754
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Posted - 2014.12.29 14:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
Clone D wrote:I AM NOT SAYING THAT BANDWIDTH FORCES US TO PLAY ONE ROLE. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PUSH FOR OUR BEING FORCED TO PLAY ONE ROLE. So what? There are people who believe the moon landing was faked  There are people who believe a lot of silly stuff. The people you are addressing are a minority of players.
My advice to you, playa...
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6038
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 15:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
The only role locking should be because you, the player, make a cost-benefit judgment call.
Do you want the deployables of a logi? If so, stay logi.
Do you want main battle line versatility? If so stay assault.
Do you want a sentinel's firepower? If so stay sentinel.
Do you want to stay sentinel but need to be able to set uplinks and hives to support your team? Switch to logi, lose the firepower and raw defenses of the sentinel butgain the deployables and equipment bonusing.
Want to assassinate people but you need to play a scout to do it? That's fine, go scout. Just accept that you are going to lose your deployable farm in order to gain the benefit of a cloak, detection and speed.
Locking into a role should be based entirely on the judgment of the player.
The people who use bandwidth to scream role locking were the ones exploiting the fact that you used to be able to have the primary benefit of running a logistics suit while actually enjoying the ability to do so in another suit that has it's own strengths not available to the logi.
Bandwidth wasn't a push to lock people into the logi role permanently. It was to push the people who enjoyed playing the benefits of a logi while not being an actual logi off the cliff. It corrected the fact that logi was the disposable role that was unnecessary.
Hope the fall was fun.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
809
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Posted - 2014.12.29 15:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Bandwidth is not forcing you to stay one role.
It is simply asking you to give up advantages of one role for another when you do swap just like any other role in existence.
You can't keep the sentinels HP
You can't keep the scout's movement
You can't keep the assault's well roundedness
You can't keep the commando's versatility
when you swap roles.
But you can keep some of the EQ you drop even if the fitting you swap to does not have any EQ.
So YOU CAN play 2 roles.
1 drop EQ
2 switch to HP stacked proto weapon fitting with no EQ that you would not be able to use if you had EQ on your suit.
3 gain effects of 2 roles in 1. BW does not work when it is tied to the suit.
I want to run my proto cloak without the need to equip my cloak. I should be able to switch suits to a suit with no cloak and still use my previous cloak. its the same thing as dropping EQ and switching to a suit with no EQ but still getting the effects of the dropped equipment.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5754
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 15:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:
But you can keep some of the EQ you drop even if the fitting you swap to does not have any EQ.
So YOU CAN play 2 roles.
1 drop EQ
2 switch to HP stacked proto weapon fitting with no EQ that you would not be able to use if you had EQ on your suit.
3 gain effects of 2 roles in 1.
You are still an assault though. Even with the equipment deployed and proto weapon, you are an assault. Your role is the same.
My advice to you, playa...
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DDx77
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
59
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 16:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
100% agree
The more I play the more I realize bandwidth is a complete waste of time
Uplinks and nanohives continue to be spammed ( main reason for BW)
Lag is worse than ever (a main argument for BW)
Proxy mines continue to be irrelevant and nerfed further due to BW
BW has not improved gameplay |
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
768
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 16:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:NextDark Knight wrote:But I can tell you that 80% of the time I'm put on a losing team with the new bandwidth changes. Are you solo queuing? If so, that's why. Stop solo queuing and you will start winning matches.
Didn't have to squad up before to be a deciding factor in a battle. Now I'm either part of the grinder or part of the meat. I can go 20 and 1 from fighting on our redline and still have no effect on the battle.
But Bandwidth makes a select few very happy.. for me it just makes the game a little duller.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
810
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 16:23:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:voidfaction wrote:
But you can keep some of the EQ you drop even if the fitting you swap to does not have any EQ.
So YOU CAN play 2 roles.
1 drop EQ
2 switch to HP stacked proto weapon fitting with no EQ that you would not be able to use if you had EQ on your suit.
3 gain effects of 2 roles in 1.
You are still an assault though. Even with the equipment deployed and proto weapon, you are an assault. Your role is the same. If you drop uplinks and switch to a fitting without uplinks do you not gain the benefit of a fitting with more cpu/pg while still having the benefit of the uplinks? Don't matter if your an assault going to assault or scout going to scout you are getting the benefits of having something from previous suit that is no longer fitted.
As I said I can not start out in a match with proto cloak scout and switch to a different scout without a cloak and still cloak.
What is the use of a logi if EVERYONE can run out drop proto uplinks in there assault suit and then switch to their slayer assault without uplinks and still have the benefit of all the uplinks. Logi is not needed. All the assaults can even change to a repair tool or injector while all the uplinks are still running. Why not just remove Logi if it is not needed.
Same can be done with scout Not as well with the lowest BW. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1831
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 16:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
DDx77 wrote:100% agree
The more I play the more I realize bandwidth is a complete waste of time
Uplinks and nanohives continue to be spammed ( main reason for BW)
Lag is worse than ever (a main argument for BW)
Proxy mines continue to be irrelevant and nerfed further due to BW
BW has not improved gameplay
its not spam if the player remains in role. spam from someone who then switches role is not ok
bandwidth was never a fix to lag. it was a fix to spam from players who had no intentions of playing the role properly. lag can be seen as worse not because of bandwidth but because of the new scanning mechanics.
i agree on the proxy mines. there is no real reason for a high bandwidth due to their limited use
i stopped playing dust for 4 months because i hated the only role i loved and that was logi. now its more fun than ever because i'm always busy. bw has improved my gameplay and got me back into dust and i enjoy it more than ever
All Hail Legion
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5758
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 16:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:Didn't have to squad up before to be a deciding factor in a battle. Adapt and overcome. If you are not willing to adapt to a changing battlefield you were doomed to fail from the start.
While Dust 514 can technically be played solo, it is best enjoyed in a squad. You don't even have to mic up, just be listening. Join an active corp or channel with people you enjoy playing with. Join a few channels so that when you login you can LFS in a few at once; saves a lot of time.
If you are okay with occasionally having to listen to a squeaky 12 year old, try the squad finder. I've meet a few interesting mercs in squad finder and I still squad with them to this day.
NextDark Knight wrote:Now I'm either part of the grinder or part of the meat. I can go 20 and 1 from fighting on our redline and still have no effect on the battle. If you went 20/1 then you helped you team and definitely effected the battle, regardless of if you earned a victory.
NextDark Knight wrote:But Bandwidth makes a select few very happy... for me it just makes the game a little duller. It prevents rampant WP spam. If reducing WP spam makes the game more dull for you then so be it 
My advice to you, playa...
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DDx77
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
59
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 16:38:00 -
[45] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Bandwidth is not forcing you to stay one role.
It is simply asking you to give up advantages of one role for another when you do swap just like any other role in existence.
You can't keep the sentinels HP
You can't keep the scout's movement
You can't keep the assault's well roundedness
You can't keep the commando's versatility
when you swap roles.
I don't think bandwidth is about roles. It is about two specific types of equipment.
Uplinks and nanhives are the only things that should have been tweaked.
Ie: 2 total amount of deployed uplinks allowed per player at a time. No heavy suit can have any deployed uplinks/nanos already in play.
Remotes and proxies should be exempt from BW
Contrary to what you just wrote, I CAN have the scouts movement AND the well roundness of an assault while also utilizing uplinks/rep tool/needles.
I of course can not and should not with a heavy
I have always thought that BW actually limits logi players as they are the ones that truly have to stay a logi the whole match if their deployed equipment matters to them.
- I realize if you ask a logi about this they will tell you they don't care because they like being a logi
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3393
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 17:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
Wow, this thread.
Bandwidth doesn't stop you from changing your roles, it just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time. You are welcome to change to assault at any time during the match, but you have to be assault if you are going to be assault, not assault plus all of the equipment you laid down as logistics, ya dig?
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1220
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 18:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Wow, this thread.
Bandwidth doesn't stop you from changing your roles, it just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time. You are welcome to change to assault at any time during the match, but you have to be assault if you are going to be assault, not assault plus all of the equipment you laid down as logistics, ya dig?
This thread was not intended to become a bandwidth discussion. It was meant to argue against being forced to play only one role, either one role per match, or one role all of the time period. There are some people saying that you shouldn't be able to change roles during a match, or that there should be consequences if you do.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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LAVALLOIS Nash
QcGOLD
386
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 18:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Dubya Guy wrote:I think being skilled (fully) into multiple roles is great, and the mark of an experienced player. I think squadding up and pre-battle communication should be encouraged and facilitated in any way possible, including providing a game mode where these things ARE NOT allowed, just for those DUST players who don't like communicating and coordinating and are looking for that solo experience.
Wow! Its extremely rare that a player in Dust who understands that squads is not for everyone. People dont understand that If I was forced into a squad, i would buy an airhorn and hold it down the entire time over the mic.
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Bandwidth is not forcing you to stay one role.
It is simply asking you to give up advantages of one role for another when you do swap just like any other role in existence.
You can't keep the sentinels HP
You can't keep the scout's movement
You can't keep the assault's well roundedness
You can't keep the commando's versatility
when you swap roles.
Again, the mentality is looking at the long range. If an assault switches to double swarm commando to take out a passing dropship, and then back to assault. they were able to project power that an assault suit couldnt. A double swarm commando has zero anti infantry ability. Why should an anti infantry assault suit be able to gain for 20 seconds heavy AV power, and then, once my dropship is shot down, switch back to assault and go after my clone?
Basically everyone else gets to have fun and meet situations accordingly. Not me. if I do such a thing, since im frequently the only guy with uplinks, now my team has to spawn out of the redline. A invisible scout can go to a 1200HP HMG suit, clear out a squad, and then go back to being an invisible scout. People can switch roles the second theirs is obsolete.
You guys all think that its such a severe consequence that im loosing out on 25WP. I dont give a **** about WP, I dont want to have to spend 10 minutes walking in from the redline each time I spawn. Thats the entire reason I started putting out uplinks in the first place.
Also, Proto assaults and scouts can put out as much equipment as a STD logi, despite being not a logistics. Where is your justification in that? |
LAVALLOIS Nash
QcGOLD
386
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 18:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:
While Dust 514 can technically be played solo, it is best enjoyed in a squad. You don't even have to mic up, just be listening.
I would rather grate my face with a cheese grater than spend 5 minutes listening to the noise created on mics in squads. Because the sensation of having my skin stripped away layer by layer would be a soothing relif compared to how my ears feel after "listening" to a squad. Im not interested in hearing 16 year olds rage when they die, or peoples loud music and TV commercials, or people eating, or people smoking weed, or grown men pretending they are in the military.
Videogames are supposed to be fun. When you mix in what i described above, it becomes not so much fun, but a frustrating chore. Now I have to add "patience for idiots" as one of the things i have to put up with each game. Not. Interested.
I respect your choice to be in a squad, it would be nice if you could respect my choice to not be in one. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5758
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 18:40:00 -
[50] - Quote
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:Again, the mentality is looking at the long range. If an assault switches to double swarm commando to take out a passing dropship, and then back to assault. they were able to project power that an assault suit couldnt. A double swarm commando has zero anti infantry ability. Why should an anti infantry assault suit be able to gain for 20 seconds heavy AV power, and then, once my dropship is shot down, switch back to assault and go after my clone? Because the player is only able to occupy a role at a time. When you are in that commando dropsuit you don't get [insert assault dropsuit command bonuses]. When you are in an assault dropsuit you don't get the commando's two light weapons, higher eHP, etc.
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:Basically everyone else gets to have fun and meet situations accordingly. Not me. if I do such a thing, since im frequently the only guy with uplinks, now my team has to spawn out of the redline. A invisible scout can go to a 1200HP HMG suit, clear out a squad, and then go back to being an invisible scout. People can switch roles the second theirs is obsolete. Run with a squad. Designate who will carry uplinks. Pray the blueberries don't drop many uplinks so you and your squad get mad WP's. Enjoy.
Also, why don't people realize you can fit uplinks to a suit other than a logi? I fit uplinks to my assault fittings frequently and it works great. If I see the blueberries are dropping uplinks then I switch to a needle fitting.
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:Also, Proto assaults and scouts can put out as much equipment as a STD logi, despite being not a logistics. Where is your justification in that? Because they are in a proto dropsuit. It's one of minor advantages of a proto dropsuit: more bandwidth. The logis remain kings of bandwidth when you compare them against the appropriate tiers; standand logi vs. standard assault, proto logi vs. proto assault.
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:I respect your choice to be in a squad, it would be nice if you could respect my choice to not be in one. http://dust514.com/game/faq/
"Combat in DUST 514 is tactical and squad-based"
Solo play is only allowed because forcing people into squads makes people yell and scream. Being a solo player is willingly accepting a handicap and bringing your team down, potentially causing a defeat.
Please squad up so if we happen to be on the same team you will be useful. Please squad up so if you are on my opposing team you will present a challenge.
P.S. - All of the generalizations you described on squad comms won't happen if you find squadmates you enjoy playing with. Sounds like you have had some poor experiences before. That sucks. Find higher quality people to squad with.
My advice to you, playa...
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Z3dog
BIG BAD W0LVES
92
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 18:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Wow, this thread.
Bandwidth doesn't stop you from changing your roles, it just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time. You are welcome to change to assault at any time during the match, but you have to be assault if you are going to be assault, not assault plus all of the equipment you laid down as logistics, ya dig?
"It just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time"
This statement is complete BS and needs to die.
Assaults and scouts running rep tools are performing multiple roles at the same time.
Assaults and scouts running uplinks are performing multiple roles at the same time.
Assaults and scouts running nanite injectors are performing multiple roles at the same time.
Assaults and scouts running swarms (or plasma cannon), AV grenades, and a non AV side arm are performing multiple roles at the same time.
No other suit than the logistics suit gets their role penalized so harshly for adapting to the battlefield.
Dust 5/14
bandwidth lol
And totally not p2w haha
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5758
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 18:54:00 -
[52] - Quote
Z3dog wrote:Assaults and scouts running rep tools are performing multiple roles at the same time.
Assaults and scouts running uplinks are performing multiple roles at the same time.
Assaults and scouts running nanite injectors are performing multiple roles at the same time.
Assaults and scouts running swarms (or plasma cannon), AV grenades, and a non AV side arm are performing multiple roles at the same time. Logis can run multiple pieces of equipment, and higher tier equipment due to their PG/CPU reduction bonus. If I'm an assault I can only have one deployable in play and then one non-deployable in play (assuming I am willing to spend the time switching fittings).
If I'm a logi I can field multiple deployables and non-deployables at once. The equipment I bring to the table also receives a bonus that assaults can't take advantage of (e.g. more rep range on the Minmatar logi).
So yeah, the argument isn't bullshit. It's 100% valid.
My advice to you, playa...
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LAVALLOIS Nash
QcGOLD
388
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 19:03:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Because the player is only able to occupy a role at a time. When you are in that commando dropsuit you don't get [insert assault dropsuit command bonuses]. When you are in an assault dropsuit you don't get the commando's two light weapons, higher eHP, etc.
So they dont get a ROF bonus to racial rifles when they switch to a dual swarm commando? Lol such a loss. The difference is that they can do that, go from anti infantry to anit vehicle back to anti infantry with nothing other than personal consequence.
If I switch, and my team loses their uplinks, they can no longer do much. its like having to start the match over, everyone has to spawn from the redline and walk it. Now if you told me that my uplinks will be inactive or not yield WP if I switch to a forge gun fit, I wouldn't mind that. But the way it is now, its my team that will suffer the consequences.
Ripley Riley wrote:
Also, why don't people realize you can fit uplinks to a suit other than a logi? I fit uplinks to my assault fittings frequently and it works great. If I see the blueberries are dropping uplinks then I switch to a needle fitting.
As for the assaults dropping uplinks, I see that as infringing on a logis territory. Its bad enough that I have to stay in my suit. Now other suits can do my role too? Kind of ridiculous.
Ripley Riley wrote:http://dust514.com/game/faq/
"Combat in DUST 514 is tactical and squad-based"
Solo play is only allowed because forcing people into squads makes people yell and scream. Being a solo player is willingly accepting a handicap and bringing your team down, potentially causing a defeat.
Please squad up so if we happen to be on the same team you will be useful. Please squad up so if you are on my opposing team you will present a challenge.
P.S. - All of the generalizations you described on squad comms won't happen if you find squadmates you enjoy playing with. Sounds like you have had some poor experiences before. That sucks. Find higher quality people to squad with.
I dont want to be in a squad for 100s of reasons, ok?The voice comms spam is just the added cherry onto that guarantees I wont squad up. If you want I can give you a comprehensive list. On it are deal breakers such as "at midnight I cant be making ANY noise at my TV" and " I have a big problem with being told what to do".
It says in the description for Public Contracts: "For lone mercenaries or small squads". Squads have their place in PC, and and FW. When im in Public contracts, I will NEVER be in a squad. I refuse. I dont need to squad up and stomp new players in milita fits to feel good about myself. Especially since Public Contracts is supposed to be a casual, relaxed mode. I dont need to win that bad to the point ill seek out every advantage I can just to crush new players in a causal mode.
At this point Ive asked you politely several times to leave me alone with telling me to join a squad. The next time I decline to be in a squad, I will be much more abrupt in my reply. Please, respect my choice. The answer to a squad now is no, tomorrow its no....its always no. Thankyou. |
Z3dog
BIG BAD W0LVES
93
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 19:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:. When you are in an assault dropsuit you don't get the commando's two light weapons, higher eHP, etc.
When I switched from a logi suit in the past i didn't keep my 3 equipment slots and i was in no position to maintain a high number of deployed equipment. Also I did not keep my logistics related bonuses. The logistics role gets a double penalty now.
Ripley Riley wrote:Run with a squad. Designate who will carry uplinks. Pray the blueberries don't drop many uplinks so you and your squad get mad WP's. Enjoy.
Also, why don't people realize you can fit uplinks to a suit other than a logi? I fit uplinks to my assault fittings frequently and it works great. If I see the blueberries are dropping uplinks then I switch to a needle fitting.
Running two roles at the same time? You mean doing the same thing the logi was nerfed for?
Ripley Riley wrote: Because they are in a proto dropsuit. It's one of minor advantages of a proto dropsuit: more bandwidth. The logis remain kings of bandwidth when you compare them against the appropriate tiers; standand logi vs. standard assault, proto logi vs. proto assault.
It is not appropriate that a suit dedicated to a role performs exactly the same as a suit not dedicated to the logistics role. Proto scouts should not have the same ability to carry equipment and do it faster than a suit dedicated to that job because it undermines the specialization players undertake.
Ripley Riley wrote:http://dust514.com/game/faq/"Combat in DUST 514 is tactical and squad-based" Solo play is only allowed because forcing people into squads makes people yell and scream. Being a solo player is willingly accepting a handicap and bringing your team down, potentially causing a defeat. Please squad up so if we happen to be on the same team you will be useful. Please squad up so if you are on my opposing team you will present a challenge. P.S. - All of the generalizations you described on squad comms won't happen if you find squadmates you enjoy playing with. Sounds like you have had some poor experiences before. That sucks. Find higher quality people to squad with.
"Combat in DUST 514 is tactical and squad-based"
Just because it is stated does not make it true. The majority players battling in dust do not run in a squad and by "tactics" they mean whatever suit they decide to make the FOTM.
Solo play is allowed because of the experiences Nash listed.
Dust 5/14
bandwidth lol
And totally not p2w haha
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5758
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 19:25:00 -
[55] - Quote
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:As for the assaults dropping uplinks, I see that as infringing on a logis territory. Its bad enough that I have to stay in my suit. Now other suits can do my role too? Kind of ridiculous. You are hilarious. I'm not infringing on a logi's role by fitting a single uplink An Amarr logi's uplinks are faster and last longer than mine, and he can fit more of them.
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:At this point I've asked you politely several times to leave me alone with telling me to join a squad. The next time I decline to be in a squad, I will be much more abrupt in my reply. Please, respect my choice. The answer to a squad now is no, tomorrow its no....its always no. Thank you.
My advice to you, playa...
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
138
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 19:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote:Dubya Guy wrote:I think being skilled (fully) into multiple roles is great, and the mark of an experienced player. I think squadding up and pre-battle communication should be encouraged and facilitated in any way possible, including providing a game mode where these things ARE NOT allowed, just for those DUST players who don't like communicating and coordinating and are looking for that solo experience. Wow! Its extremely rare that a player in Dust who understands that squads is not for everyone. People dont understand that If I was forced into a squad, i would buy an airhorn and hold it down the entire time over the mic.
I, personally, am bored whitless with solo play. If a game doesn't have co-op mode, I am "meh" at best. BUT, I advocate making room in DUST for solo play for two fundamental reasons:
1) I really enjoy Dust, and I don't want doctrinaire purists to reduce the player base to where the game is no longer viable. We should welcome people who want to play the game, even if they don't want to play it exactly the way it was originally promoted. They might eventually change their minds as the game improves.
2) As someone who is highly motivated NOT to let others down, I occasionally play a solo game when I know I am not at my best, or I might have to bail out half way through due to RL things , or my headset is charging, etc. If I join your squad, know that you have my full effort and attention.
A place should be reserved in Dust for those who can't or won't, FOR WHATEVER REASON, coordinate and communicate as part of a squad. My suggestion has been a special game mode so that those who assume a certain level of coordination on the part of their blueberry teammates won't feel so put out by those who don't. To tie back to the OP's topic, I think such a game mode would be just the sort of place someone who liked switching roles a lot within a match would feel right at home.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Z3dog
BIG BAD W0LVES
93
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 19:43:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Z3dog wrote:Assaults and scouts running rep tools are performing multiple roles at the same time.
Assaults and scouts running uplinks are performing multiple roles at the same time.
Assaults and scouts running nanite injectors are performing multiple roles at the same time.
Assaults and scouts running swarms (or plasma cannon), AV grenades, and a non AV side arm are performing multiple roles at the same time. Logis can run multiple pieces of equipment, and higher tier equipment due to their PG/CPU reduction bonus. If I'm an assault I can only have one deployable in play and then one non-deployable in play (assuming I am willing to spend the time switching fittings). If I'm a logi I can field multiple deployables and non-deployables at once. The equipment I bring to the table also receives a bonus that assaults can't take advantage of (e.g. more rep range on the Minmatar logi). So yeah, the argument isn't bullshit. It's 100% valid.
You completely ignored what the statement was saying. Which is probably why you didn't include it in the quote. The statement addresses playing multiple roles at the same time. Not the effectiveness different suits have at performing those roles.
Also (the rep tool as an example) any non logi suit with an equipment slot can run the rep tool as well as 3/4 of logistics suits.
The fitting bonus logis receive is only worthwhile when their are multiple equipment slots being filled. A single equipment slot is negligible. Scouts make up for their poor fitting bonus with speed. Their speed actually making them better than logistics at running certain equipment.
Dust 5/14
bandwidth lol
And totally not p2w haha
|
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5758
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 19:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
Z3dog wrote:You completely ignored what the statement was saying. Which is probably why you didn't include it in the quote. The statement addresses playing multiple roles at the same time. Not the effectiveness different suits have at performing those roles.
Also (the rep tool as an example) any non logi suit with an equipment slot can run the rep tool as well as 3/4 of logistics suits.
The fitting bonus logis receive is only worthwhile when their are multiple equipment slots being filled. A single equipment slot is negligible. Scouts make up for their poor fitting bonus with speed. Their speed actually making them better than logistics at running certain equipment. A scout will never be as good at supporting their team with equipment as a logi. This isn't a debate. The speed might help in certain situations, but it does not trump the increased effectiveness logis receive with their tools of the trade.
Logis need more eHP to increase their survivability a tad. That is mostly unrelated to the topic but needs to be said.
My advice to you, playa...
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
813
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 20:39:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Z3dog wrote:You completely ignored what the statement was saying. Which is probably why you didn't include it in the quote. The statement addresses playing multiple roles at the same time. Not the effectiveness different suits have at performing those roles.
Also (the rep tool as an example) any non logi suit with an equipment slot can run the rep tool as well as 3/4 of logistics suits.
The fitting bonus logis receive is only worthwhile when their are multiple equipment slots being filled. A single equipment slot is negligible. Scouts make up for their poor fitting bonus with speed. Their speed actually making them better than logistics at running certain equipment. A scout will never be as good at supporting their team with equipment as a logi. This isn't a debate. The speed might help in certain situations, but it does not trump the increased effectiveness logis receive with their tools of the trade. Logis need more eHP to increase their survivability a tad. That is mostly unrelated to the topic but needs to be said. I say give them more eHP when you force logi on the field. The way it is now nobody cares about the bonus speed to a logi uplinks because the game is not about the few speedy uplinks its about getting as many on the field and switching to a slayer role. 16 players can drop what 3 uplinks each and switch to slayer role giving 48 uplinks on the field and not a 1 logi and not a single fit after switching having uplinks even on their fitting. I know that is very unlikely but that is what is possible.
I'm not saying don't allow assaults, scouts or whoever from being able to drop equipment I'm saying if you drop them then have them on your fitting you switch to or they go POOF.
Now you are forcing logi on the field because the slayers are not going to want to use up cpu/pg to keep there equipment giong so the Logi role is reborn and needed on the field and deserving of eHP buff you name it.
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Z3dog
BIG BAD W0LVES
94
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Posted - 2014.12.29 20:53:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Z3dog wrote:You completely ignored what the statement was saying. Which is probably why you didn't include it in the quote. The statement addresses playing multiple roles at the same time. Not the effectiveness different suits have at performing those roles.
Also (the rep tool as an example) any non logi suit with an equipment slot can run the rep tool as well as 3/4 of logistics suits.
The fitting bonus logis receive is only worthwhile when their are multiple equipment slots being filled. A single equipment slot is negligible. Scouts make up for their poor fitting bonus with speed. Their speed actually making them better than logistics at running certain equipment. A scout will never be as good at supporting their team with equipment as a logi. This isn't a debate. The speed might help in certain situations, but it does not trump the increased effectiveness logis receive with their tools of the trade. Logis need more eHP to increase their survivability a tad. That is mostly unrelated to the topic but needs to be said.
Z3dog wrote: You completely ignored what the statement was saying.
Again.
Z3dog wrote: The statement addresses playing multiple roles at the same time. Not the effectiveness different suits have at performing those roles.
However still.
Scouts are almost always superior when running nanite injectors because they can beat out logis with their speed and be in and out of danger in a shorter period of time.
Scouts are always superior in the beginning of matches when running uplinks.
Scouts are better than 3/4 of logis at running rep tools.
Assaults only need to be closer to a downed teammate when running a nanite injector to beat a logi. (and they usually are because they are closer to the enemy and more likely to be near a downed teammate). Their hp is higher and they are more likely to survive if something goes wrong.
etc.
Dust 5/14
bandwidth lol
And totally not p2w haha
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Z3dog
BIG BAD W0LVES
94
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Posted - 2014.12.29 20:54:00 -
[61] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Z3dog wrote:The majority players battling in dust do not run in a squad First, cite your sources on this statement. Second, if it is true, they are blueberries who will most likely quit in their first 30 days of playing. People who stick around for the long haul find companionship in the form of corpmates and channels to squad with. Z3dog wrote:It is not appropriate that a suit dedicated to a role performs exactly the same as a suit not dedicated to the logistics role. Proto scouts should not have the same ability to carry equipment and do it faster than a suit dedicated to that job because it undermines the specialization players undertake. Please provide a screen capture of a scout dropsuit that gives a passive bonus to equipment other than a cloaking device. Scouts can fit ONE piece of equipment in addition to a cloak and they do not receive the dropsuit command bonuses for whatever they fit. Scouts also lack the CPU/PG reduction bonus, meaning they cannot field higher tiered equipment as easily.
I don't need to site a source on that claim I only need to play the game. In PC (an extreme minority) games are completely squad based. In FW there is an increase in squads, but its still a toss up. It is undeniable in public contracts that the majority are solo players and even if they weren't a squad wouldn't protect them from squads of Protostompers which is likely a large factor in them quitting. IF they quit.
Not all people who stick around for the long hall find nor want companionship in squads. Did you forget your conversation with Nash?
"Please provide a screen capture of a scout dropsuit that gives a passive bonus to equipment other than a cloaking device."
Oh man this is a gem. "Provide a screen capture of a scout getting a bonus to equipment other than the piece of equipment I say!"
lol
And scouts AREN'T required to use a cloak. The two equipment slots are available for any equipment they want.
Dust 5/14
bandwidth lol
And totally not p2w haha
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Lazer Fo Cused
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
320
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 20:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
1. Welcome to being an Amarr/Caldari Logi where your bonus only works when your alive and not dead and if you try to adapt to any situation you are punished for trying to help out the team, sit in the corner and afk after you put links down unless you like throwing away proto suits |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5758
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 21:07:00 -
[63] - Quote
Z3dog wrote:I don't need to site a source on that claim I only need to play the game. In PC (an extreme minority) games are completely squad based. In FW there is an increase in squads, but its still a toss up. It is undeniable in public contracts that the majority are solo players and even if they weren't a squad wouldn't protect them from squads of Protostompers which is likely a large factor in them quitting. IF they quit. Still no data or source to back up what you are saying then? Just purely anecdotal "evidence". Understood.
Z3dog wrote:"Please provide a screen capture of a scout dropsuit that gives a passive bonus to equipment other than a cloaking device."
Oh man this is a gem. "Provide a screen capture of a scout getting a bonus to equipment other than the piece of equipment I say!" Because the scout's bonus with a cloak doesn't support his team in the same way a logi's bonus with uplinks, nanohives, repair tools, or active scanners does. It mostly helps the scout himself survive when crossing wide breaks in cover or flank unsuspecting hostiles. While the cloak is active the scout's scan radius actually drops, removing any shared passive squad scans.
Sure, logis get bonuses with equipment and scouts technically do to, but it's not comparing apples to apples and you know it, homie
Z3dog wrote:And scouts AREN'T required to use a cloak. The two equipment slots are available for any equipment they want. Yes, but the scout's bandwidth is purposefully gimped so they can't fit two deployable equipment. He also doesn't recieve a single bonus with the deployable equipment he carries.
I'll also say again, if a scout wants to drop higher tier equipment he is going to eat through his CPU/PG. This won't leave nearly as much resource left to tank or fit decent weapons. In short, he's sacrificing much for the ability to carry two pieces of equipment that he doesn't even get passive bonuses for.
My advice to you, playa...
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Z3dog
BIG BAD W0LVES
94
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Posted - 2014.12.29 21:34:00 -
[64] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Z3dog wrote:I don't need to site a source on that claim I only need to play the game. In PC (an extreme minority) games are completely squad based. In FW there is an increase in squads, but its still a toss up. It is undeniable in public contracts that the majority are solo players and even if they weren't a squad wouldn't protect them from squads of Protostompers which is likely a large factor in them quitting. IF they quit. Still no data or source to back up what you are saying then? Just purely anecdotal "evidence". Understood.
You seriously disagree that solo players make up the majority of public contracts? I never declared it to be evidence it is clearly stated as an experience.
Ripley Riley wrote: Because the scout's bonus with a cloak doesn't support his team in the same way a logi's bonus with uplinks, nanohives, repair tools, or active scanners does. It mostly helps the scout himself survive when crossing wide breaks in cover or flank unsuspecting hostiles. While the cloak is active the scout's scan radius actually drops, removing any shared passive squad scans. Sure, logis get bonuses with equipment and scouts technically do to, but it's not comparing apples to apples and you know it, homie
I know its not apples to apples, but you said it yourself "logis get bonuses with equipment and scouts technically do to" you cannot say that scouts do not get a bonus to equipment.
Yet someone who is a scout can drop uplinks and equip a rep tool (perform two roles at the same time) and that is apparently ok when a scout does it.
Ripley Riley wrote:Yes, but the scout's bandwidth is purposefully gimped so they can't fit two deployable equipment. He also doesn't recieve a single bonus with the deployable equipment he carries.
I'll also say again, if a scout wants to drop higher tier equipment he is going to eat through his CPU/PG. This won't leave nearly as much resource left to tank or fit decent weapons. In short, he's sacrificing much for the ability to carry two pieces of equipment that he doesn't even get passive bonuses for.
A logi cannot run high tier equipment and expect to tank effectively either. Or equip decent weapons.
Dust 5/14
bandwidth lol
And totally not p2w haha
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1412
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 21:51:00 -
[65] - Quote
The fact is BW was a buff to those who run proto and those who run in a squad. The whole "two roles simultaneously" argument is a mere smokescreen because rep tools and injectors can be used by everyone but heavies. Uplinks and hives can be deployed by everyone but heavies. Tankers and pilots all play two roles simultaneously.
The only reason BW was supported was because protostomping squaddies didn't want to share the leaderboard glory with lone wolves. Personally, I mostly just run logi or AV now, my WP is the same as before but I can't have much effect on the outcome of a match. Stomping just got slightly worse but those that don't mind that seem to not notice.
It isn't a game breaker though. I will provably just never see my heavy suits again since the only time they outweigh the use of equipment is when my team is slaughtering the other and equipment is already spammed everywhere. In those matches I tend to go explore my own redline or call in a DS and practice flying and giving swarmers target practice.
Because, that's why.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5758
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Posted - 2014.12.29 21:51:00 -
[66] - Quote
Z3dog wrote:You seriously disagree that solo players make up the majority of public contracts? I never declared it to be evidence it is clearly stated as an experience. I have no data to make a statement one way or another. I don't interview every blueberry post-patch to see if they were in a squad or not. I simply don't know and neither do you.
Z3dog wrote:I know its not apples to apples, but you said it yourself "logis get bonuses with equipment and scouts technically do to" you cannot say that scouts do not get a bonus to equipment.
Yet someone who is a scout can drop uplinks and equip a rep tool (perform two roles at the same time) and that is apparently ok when a scout does it. A scout can fit a repair tool but he is going to suck in a big way. An assault can fit a nanohive, but those hives will never perform as well as those dropped by a Caldari logi.
Z3dog wrote:A logi cannot run high tier equipment and expect to tank effectively either. Or equip decent weapons.
Caldari logi I threw together vs. Caldari scout I threw together
Logi: 625.7 eHP, 6 total hives functioning with more nanites and higher resupply/repair rate plus an advanced needle for when the hives run out. Enough bandwidth to deploy 5 hives at once.
Scout: 582.2 eHP, 6 total hives with no bonuses, no needle for when the hives pop. Enough bandwidth to deploy 2 hives at once...
Scout walk/strafe: 5.43m/s
Logi walk/strafe: 4.61m/s
So you are saying that scouts are as good as being a logi because of... 0.82m/s walk/strafe speeds and an advanced weapon?
My advice to you, playa...
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Z3dog
BIG BAD W0LVES
94
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Posted - 2014.12.29 22:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Z3dog wrote:You seriously disagree that solo players make up the majority of public contracts? I never declared it to be evidence it is clearly stated as an experience. I have no data to make a statement one way or another. I don't interview every blueberry post-patch to see if they were in a squad or not. I simply don't know and neither do you.
Yes I do know. It is painfully obvious if you are in pub matches. And even if wasn't squads won't save noobs from protostompers.
Z3dog wrote:I know its not apples to apples, but you said it yourself "logis get bonuses with equipment and scouts technically do to" you cannot say that scouts do not get a bonus to equipment.
Yet someone who is a scout can drop uplinks and equip a rep tool (perform two roles at the same time) and that is apparently ok when a scout does it. A scout can fit a repair tool but he is going to suck in a big way. An assault can fit a nanohive, but those hives will never perform as well as those dropped by a Caldari logi.
He is going to operate the repair tool better than Amarr, Caldari, and Gallente logistics. That is he will operate that repair tool better than 3/4 of logistics suits.
Z3dog wrote:A logi cannot run high tier equipment and expect to tank effectively either. Or equip decent weapons.
Caldari logi I threw together vs. Caldari scout I threw together
Logi: 625.7 eHP, 6 total hives functioning with more nanites and higher resupply/repair rate plus an advanced needle for when the hives run out. Enough bandwidth to deploy 5 hives at once.
Scout: 582.2 eHP, 6 total hives with no bonuses, no needle for when the hives pop. Enough bandwidth to deploy 2 hives at once...
Scout walk/strafe: 5.43m/s
Logi walk/strafe: 4.61m/s
So you are saying that scouts are as good as being a logi because of... 0.82m/s walk/strafe speeds and an advanced weapon?[/quote]
Yes strafe speed makes a big difference especially with smaller hit boxes.
I like how you just completely ignored the sprint speed more than a meter difference speed being very important when running ammo to mercs. Then you completely ignored the rep tool and nanite injector points in this thread and equipped two nanohives (deployable equipment) which i wouldn't expect people to do anyway.
Dust 5/14
bandwidth lol
And totally not p2w haha
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
R 0 N 1 N
1179
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Posted - 2014.12.29 23:10:00 -
[68] - Quote
Z3dog wrote:
Complaining about non-logi's being able to play two roles at the same time
Dude seriously - you're using a scout being able to use equipment other than a cloak as evidence that a logi can't what? Do scoutly things? Sure - but they have more HP and are better designed for a fire-fight.
What about assaults? What dual roles is it that assaults can do? Use equipment and....what? Fire a weapon?
A logi can fire weapons. Good ones. Ones as good as assaults. Without the assault bonuses.....coz you're a logi.
Your role is support. That means great equipment and covering / suppressing fire. Your role is not a slayer.
I am so struggling to understand the mentality of ppl who think logis have been nerfed.
Do you think you can present your argument as a matrix of pros and cons? I might be able to understand your argument if you made it clear. Right now, I can't begin to imagine short of the obvious WP-whoring you used to be able to do, what your beef is. That goes for all of you who don't like the changes.
Oh and as for the OP's initial concern - I don't think it's ever gonna happen - that would make no sense at all, and there can only be a tiny minority who think it should. If it annoys you in-game - then force it by locking down the supply depots that you all so conveniently don't mention as being a requirement for the style of play you disagree with.
You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all.
~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1413
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 23:28:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Z3dog wrote:You seriously disagree that solo players make up the majority of public contracts? I never declared it to be evidence it is clearly stated as an experience. I have no data to make a statement one way or another. I don't interview every blueberry post-patch to see if they were in a squad or not. I simply don't know and neither do you. Z3dog wrote:I know its not apples to apples, but you said it yourself "logis get bonuses with equipment and scouts technically do to" you cannot say that scouts do not get a bonus to equipment.
Yet someone who is a scout can drop uplinks and equip a rep tool (perform two roles at the same time) and that is apparently ok when a scout does it. A scout can fit a repair tool but he is going to suck in a big way. An assault can fit a nanohive, but those hives will never perform as well as those dropped by a Caldari logi. Z3dog wrote:A logi cannot run high tier equipment and expect to tank effectively either. Or equip decent weapons. Caldari logi I threw together vs. Caldari scout I threw togetherLogi: 625.7 eHP, 6 total hives functioning with more nanites and higher resupply/repair rate plus an advanced needle for when the hives run out. Enough bandwidth to deploy 5 hives at once. Scout: 582.2 eHP, 6 total hives with no bonuses, no needle for when the hives pop. Enough bandwidth to deploy 2 hives at once... Scout walk/strafe: 5.43m/s Logi walk/strafe: 4.61m/s So you are saying that scouts are as good as being a logi because of... 0.82m/s walk/strafe speeds and an advanced weapon?
No, and prior to BW logi bonuses and versatility didn't transfer either, so what point are you trying to make? The difference is that now using proto gear and proto suits allow you to use more equipment , coordinating with squadmates allow you to still spam equipment. Is that really the problem with this game, not enough vets running proto squads?
Because, that's why.
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neausea 1987
1.U.P
230
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 01:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
one role players are the reason people most often lose, lmao have you ever heard someone scream where the F*** is the forge/medic/ whatever. i always laugh like why dont you have it then BUM. but this is dust.
SELF PROCLAIMED LORD OF THE DANCE AND MASTER OF THE FLANK AND SPANK (no cloak required) i strive or perfection.
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Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
1131
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 03:52:00 -
[71] - Quote
I just wish there was a visual indicator of how much BW is in use. Since BW I've been able to narrow my used fits down to 4-5 because if I am going to lose my equipment its going to be to a suit that can bring in WP on their own. I used to use tons a fittings switching to what ever the battle called for each death. Now its either all out logi or all out killing and blowing up tanks. That said I don't think I've logi'd so much in ages. The logi role seems to have gotten its identity back, as in you now have to be dedicated to the role to reap the rewards, now I am getting the WP others were farming.
/Faceplam
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3394
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 04:09:00 -
[72] - Quote
Z3dog wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Wow, this thread.
Bandwidth doesn't stop you from changing your roles, it just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time. You are welcome to change to assault at any time during the match, but you have to be assault if you are going to be assault, not assault plus all of the equipment you laid down as logistics, ya dig? "It just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time" This statement is complete BS and needs to die. Assaults and scouts running rep tools are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running uplinks are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running nanite injectors are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running swarms (or plasma cannon), AV grenades, and a non AV side arm are performing multiple roles at the same time. No other suit than the logistics suit gets their role penalized so harshly for adapting to the battlefield.
Your butthurt over bandwidth is noted.
But more to the point, if you consider using a non-AV sidearm as playing another role, you obviously don't understand roles. Roles are specialized.
Logistics have bonuses to specific pieces equipment, and reduction in CPU/PG on their equipment. They can equip a primary weapon and grenade, but does that make the logistic's role to kill people? Not at all. It is a secondary ability that is less effective than suits that are specialized for it.
Same goes for equipment on assaults/scouts. It isn't as effective as logistics, takes up more of your CPU/PG so you have to sacrifice more for it, and you don't get as many pieces of equipment at one time. It's all secondary to assault/scout roles.
So to make my point clear, no, assaults and scouts with equipment are not performing multiple roles at once.
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
818
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 04:16:00 -
[73] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Z3dog wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Wow, this thread.
Bandwidth doesn't stop you from changing your roles, it just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time. You are welcome to change to assault at any time during the match, but you have to be assault if you are going to be assault, not assault plus all of the equipment you laid down as logistics, ya dig? "It just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time" This statement is complete BS and needs to die. Assaults and scouts running rep tools are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running uplinks are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running nanite injectors are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running swarms (or plasma cannon), AV grenades, and a non AV side arm are performing multiple roles at the same time. No other suit than the logistics suit gets their role penalized so harshly for adapting to the battlefield. Your butthurt over bandwidth is noted. But more to the point, if you consider using a non-AV sidearm as playing another role, you obviously don't understand roles. Roles are specialized. Logistics have bonuses to specific pieces equipment, and reduction in CPU/PG on their equipment. They can equip a primary weapon and grenade, but does that make the logistic's role to kill people? Not at all. It is a secondary ability that is less effective than suits that are specialized for it. Same goes for equipment on assaults/scouts. It isn't as effective as logistics, takes up more of your CPU/PG so you have to sacrifice more for it, and you don't get as many pieces of equipment at one time. It's all secondary to assault/scout roles.So to make my point clear, no, assaults and scouts with equipment are not performing multiple roles at once.
How are they sacrificing cpu/pg when they drop there equipment then switch to a scanner/repair/injector or no equipment fitting while the uplinks/hives dropped before keep working? They are getting the benefits of the equipment without the cpu/pg sacrifice.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1226
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 04:31:00 -
[74] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:How are they sacrificing cpu/pg when they drop there equipment then switch to a scanner/repair/injector or no equipment fitting while the uplinks/hives dropped before keep working? They are getting the benefits of the equipment without the cpu/pg sacrifice.
Logi can do the same thing. start in full uplink/hive/proximity fitting and drop all equipment then switch to a 2x scanners/repair/injector fitting and have tons of equipment on the field while not having to sacrifice nothing with the benefits of 4 different equipment. Its not just a assault and scout getting benefits of eq after switching.
Yes, logis are ten fold more touristy than any other role now. They just wanted exclusive rights to WP w horing.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
820
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 04:49:00 -
[75] - Quote
Clone D wrote:voidfaction wrote:How are they sacrificing cpu/pg when they drop there equipment then switch to a scanner/repair/injector or no equipment fitting while the uplinks/hives dropped before keep working? They are getting the benefits of the equipment without the cpu/pg sacrifice.
Logi can do the same thing. start in full uplink/hive/proximity fitting and drop all equipment then switch to a 2x scanners/repair/injector fitting and have tons of equipment on the field while not having to sacrifice nothing with the benefits of 4 different equipment. Its not just a assault and scout getting benefits of eq after switching. Yes, logis are ten fold more touristy than any other role now. They just wanted exclusive rights to WP w horing.
I would not even be in this argument if I would have got WP for running 2x Flux scanners on my scout solo. Not getting WP from team is what got me thinking how uplinks and hives give WP from team and they don't even need to be on present fitting. yes I know this has always been possible but since BW update have seen more uplinks being spammed and I just starting using scanners and never used any other equipment other than cloak and compact hive.
I guess I should just add to the uplink spam and drop uplinks and switch to my dual scanner scout and shut up. I guess it is fair if everyone can do it.
Double uplink and hive BW and or add BW to repair, scanner, and injectors |
Flint Beastgood III
Carbon 7
Iron Oxide.
1123
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 08:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Bandwidth doesn't get in my way of switching roles. If I play as a logi and set a bunch of uplinks, I can switch to an assault when I feel my team is doing alright enough, and still keep 2 of those uplinks active (an assault can support 2 uplinks). Often the value of the equipment deployed is outweighed by the value of the role you're switching to, so don't worry so much about losing some equipment, and just switch roles if you really feel you need to.
As much as it pains me, this is pretty much true.
When soloing (and sometimes when in squad) I am often required to play A LOT of the spontaneously-needed roles, and at such points in battle, I have to lose the majority of my uplinks in order to take down another threat to my team's success.
Sometimes this can hinder my team's ability to stay in the fight, until I can complete my task and switch back to my logi to replace my uplinks.
This has now stopped me from running links in anything other than DOM (where it is truly a game-deciding role).
Nowadays I pray before each match that someone else takes on the link-reinforcement role so I don't have to worry about bandwidth the whole match, whereas I used to pray that I was the only one doing links so I could farm them WP, lol.
I am still undecided about the whole bandwidth system but, as with all other changes, I just try to adapt as best I can.
Skills - https://www.facebook.com/notes/flint-beastgood-iii/list-of-trained-skills/416505058477164
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
820
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 08:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Flint Beastgood III wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Bandwidth doesn't get in my way of switching roles. If I play as a logi and set a bunch of uplinks, I can switch to an assault when I feel my team is doing alright enough, and still keep 2 of those uplinks active (an assault can support 2 uplinks). Often the value of the equipment deployed is outweighed by the value of the role you're switching to, so don't worry so much about losing some equipment, and just switch roles if you really feel you need to. As much as it pains me, this is pretty much true. When soloing (and sometimes when in squad) I am often required to play A LOT of the spontaneously-needed roles, and at such points in battle, I have to lose the majority of my uplinks in order to take down another threat to my team's success. Sometimes this can hinder my team's ability to stay in the fight, until I can complete my task and switch back to my logi to replace my uplinks. This has now stopped me from running links in anything other than DOM (where it is truly a game-deciding role). Nowadays I pray before each match that someone else takes on the link-reinforcement role so I don't have to worry about bandwidth the whole match, whereas I used to pray that I was the only one doing links so I could farm them WP, lol. I am still undecided about the whole bandwidth system but, as with all other changes, I just try to adapt as best I can.
Just tell everyone in your squad to start match with uplinks and switch to injector, scanner, repair, or no equipment after. uplink problem solved. that is how its being spammed now. An assault or commando can have 2 active uplinks running without uplinks even on their fitting. Or you as a logi can drop as many uplinks as you can and switch to injector, scanner, and repair logi untill you need uplinks again. again problem solved. For a logi it is like you have 8 equipment slots. |
Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1414
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 09:59:00 -
[78] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Z3dog wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Wow, this thread.
Bandwidth doesn't stop you from changing your roles, it just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time. You are welcome to change to assault at any time during the match, but you have to be assault if you are going to be assault, not assault plus all of the equipment you laid down as logistics, ya dig? "It just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time" This statement is complete BS and needs to die. Assaults and scouts running rep tools are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running uplinks are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running nanite injectors are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running swarms (or plasma cannon), AV grenades, and a non AV side arm are performing multiple roles at the same time. No other suit than the logistics suit gets their role penalized so harshly for adapting to the battlefield. Your butthurt over bandwidth is noted. But more to the point, if you consider using a non-AV sidearm as playing another role, you obviously don't understand roles. Roles are specialized. Logistics have bonuses to specific pieces equipment, and reduction in CPU/PG on their equipment. They can equip a primary weapon and grenade, but does that make the logistic's role to kill people? Not at all. It is a secondary ability that is less effective than suits that are specialized for it. Same goes for equipment on assaults/scouts. It isn't as effective as logistics, takes up more of your CPU/PG so you have to sacrifice more for it, and you don't get as many pieces of equipment at one time. It's all secondary to assault/scout roles. So to make my point clear, no, assaults and scouts with equipment are not performing multiple roles at once.
If Assaaults and Scouts who deploy equipment are not playing two roles simultaneously, then explain the argument how BW is to prevent people from doing two roles simultaneously. You can't have it both ways and use which ever argument suits you.
Because, that's why.
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
820
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 10:37:00 -
[79] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Z3dog wrote:Logi Bro wrote:Wow, this thread.
Bandwidth doesn't stop you from changing your roles, it just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time. You are welcome to change to assault at any time during the match, but you have to be assault if you are going to be assault, not assault plus all of the equipment you laid down as logistics, ya dig? "It just stops you from WP whoring via playing multiple roles at one time" This statement is complete BS and needs to die. Assaults and scouts running rep tools are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running uplinks are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running nanite injectors are performing multiple roles at the same time. Assaults and scouts running swarms (or plasma cannon), AV grenades, and a non AV side arm are performing multiple roles at the same time. No other suit than the logistics suit gets their role penalized so harshly for adapting to the battlefield. Your butthurt over bandwidth is noted. But more to the point, if you consider using a non-AV sidearm as playing another role, you obviously don't understand roles. Roles are specialized. Logistics have bonuses to specific pieces equipment, and reduction in CPU/PG on their equipment. They can equip a primary weapon and grenade, but does that make the logistic's role to kill people? Not at all. It is a secondary ability that is less effective than suits that are specialized for it. Same goes for equipment on assaults/scouts. It isn't as effective as logistics, takes up more of your CPU/PG so you have to sacrifice more for it, and you don't get as many pieces of equipment at one time. It's all secondary to assault/scout roles. So to make my point clear, no, assaults and scouts with equipment are not performing multiple roles at once. If Assaaults and Scouts who deploy equipment are not playing two roles simultaneously, then explain the argument how BW is to prevent people from doing two roles simultaneously. You can't have it both ways and use which ever argument suits you. They are not performing 2 roles if they are using what they have fitted. It is when they drop uplinks or hives then change to a different suit and use repair, injectors, scanners or no equipment to gain cpu/pg for stronger suit that makes them doing 2 roles at same time. This is not just assaults and scouts but commando and logi can do the same thing.
A logi can virtually have 8 equipment slots because they can spawn in and drop equipment and change out and use 2 scanners, repair and injector all while the droped equipment is still in play.
It is nothing new as before the BW update just finally being recognized.
If everyone can do it then it is ballanced. keep on spamming uplinks.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3395
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:15:00 -
[80] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:
If Assaaults and Scouts who deploy equipment are not playing two roles simultaneously, then explain the argument how BW is to prevent people from doing two roles simultaneously. You can't have it both ways and use which ever argument suits you.
I think you are looking at this wrong, I'm still using the same argument.
Bandwidth is to stop people from going to logistics, spamming a very large amount of equipment that only a logi could be capable of spamming, and then switching to another class that has better killing potential and still keeping all of that equipment. BW has fixed this, now they only get to keep a small portion of that equipment, depending on the suit they chose.
Assaults and scouts get less equipment and less bandwidth, and as I mentioned, have to sacrifice more CPU/PG than a logi, and ultimately have less effective equipment. An assault deploying two uplinks is not a role, it's a secondary benefit. A logi deploying uplinks, nanohives, and running around with a nanite injector and rep tool IS a role.
Granted, as people have mentioned, they could deploy their assault, put down uplinks in it, then switch to the same assault with active equipment instead of deployable, thereby cheating the system, HOWEVER, they are cheating the system on a much smaller scale than when they could have 10 nanohives and 10 uplinks on the field and still run around in an HMG heavy tearing people up and whoring the WPs on a huge scale.
I never said BW was perfect, but it is definitely helping to quell the WP farmers.
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
826
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Posted - 2014.12.30 18:28:00 -
[81] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Nothing Certain wrote:
If Assaaults and Scouts who deploy equipment are not playing two roles simultaneously, then explain the argument how BW is to prevent people from doing two roles simultaneously. You can't have it both ways and use which ever argument suits you.
I think you are looking at this wrong, I'm still using the same argument. Bandwidth is to stop people from going to logistics, spamming a very large amount of equipment that only a logi could be capable of spamming, and then switching to another class that has better killing potential and still keeping all of that equipment. BW has fixed this, now they only get to keep a small portion of that equipment, depending on the suit they chose. Assaults and scouts get less equipment and less bandwidth, and as I mentioned, have to sacrifice more CPU/PG than a logi, and ultimately have less effective equipment. An assault deploying two uplinks is not a role, it's a secondary benefit. A logi deploying uplinks, nanohives, and running around with a nanite injector and rep tool IS a role. Granted, as people have mentioned, they could deploy their assault, put down uplinks in it, then switch to the same assault with active equipment instead of deployable, thereby cheating the system, HOWEVER, they are cheating the system on a much smaller scale than when they could have 10 nanohives and 10 uplinks on the field and still run around in an HMG heavy tearing people up and whoring the WPs on a huge scale. I never said BW was perfect, but it is definitely helping to quell the WP farmers. I want perfect. I want If I drop std uplinks and switch to another fitting and want to keep my uplinks then I better have std uplink or better on the new fitting. if I drop proto uplinks then I would need to swap to a different fitting that has proto uplinks. a logi would need the same number of uplink equipment slots used as they used to drop uplinks so if they need to use 2 slots for uplinks then when they respawn they need to have 2 uplinks fitted. Only field what you are fitted for.
Yes BW is better but i run 2 scanners on a scout and get no wp because i run solo and on top of that i cant equip 2 scanners and switch to no scanners and still scan. I would really like to run 2 scanners and cloak and have injector but I can not do that so why should those using hives or uplinks have the ability to virtually have 2x the eq slots and not those that do not use uplinks or hives?
Another way to kinda fix this would be to add BW to active equipment too.
Oh and if all equipment is going to give wp from team then scanners need to be given wp from team. if it is only in squad then same with all other equipment. if they dont need to be in a squad when running a support i should not need to be in a squad when running support.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
18096
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Posted - 2014.12.31 02:35:00 -
[82] - Quote
We could make it that when you activate your cloak your BW goes to zero. :D :D :p
CPM 1
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6684
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Posted - 2014.12.31 04:31:00 -
[83] - Quote
People are fighting over bits and pieces of WP. The entire display is rather despicable.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1432
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Posted - 2014.12.31 04:52:00 -
[84] - Quote
An ADS pilot in a logi suit dropping links isn't playing two roles? Yet if I want to drop a hive and an uplink and then forge I am? A tanker with an HMG, hack suit or uplink suit isn't playing two roles but if I drop an uplink at an objective and come back as a heavy to defend it, I am? A scout running a needle and repper isn't playing two roles? Sorry, but it is hypocritical to suggest that BW addresses the "two roles" issue.
BW is a result of WP envy and it only affects certain players. There were more elegant, less complicated ways to fix equipment spam. I would have just gotten rud of the ability to switch suits at an SD. Figuring out what is needed and then being committed to that choice would add to the strategy of the game, rather than "own the SD and do whatwver you want" situation we have now.
Because, that's why.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1250
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Posted - 2014.12.31 05:23:00 -
[85] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:People are fighting over bits and pieces of WP. The entire display is rather despicable.
WPs are the most material incentive of the game, as they directly affect SP and character development. Don't we all wish we could develop our characters faster? Of course there is a WP tug of war.
Within our own teams we compete with each other for WP, everyone racing to beat the next team mate to the kill, and encouraging shady team play, like letting another person put forth a lot of effort and then sweeping in for the WP right at the end. WPs encourage back stabbing within the team, causing distrust. WPs encourage w horing and imbalance of roles within the team. Ever been on that team where everybody wants to be an uplink w hore?
WPs drive our behavior. If you ever find a reprehensible behavior occurring on the battlefield, look for the WP incentive.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
826
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Posted - 2014.12.31 05:40:00 -
[86] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:We could make it that when you activate your cloak your BW goes to zero. :D :D :p If I am running 2 scanners how many slots does my scout have left for a cloak? Come on IWS don't look it up answer from the top of your head. You been CPM for what 2 years you should know how many EQ slots a scout has. Head starting to hurt yet?
After you get done looking that up tell me how would making my BW go to 0 hurt me if and when I am running 1 scanner and a cloak. Do you need to look that up too?
:D :D
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5023
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Posted - 2014.12.31 06:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:We could make it that when you activate your cloak your BW goes to zero. :D :D :p If I am running 2 scanners how many slots does my scout have left for a cloak? Come on IWS don't look it up answer from the top of your head. You been CPM for what 2 years you should know how many EQ slots a scout has. Head starting to hurt yet? After you get done looking that up tell me how would making my BW go to 0 hurt me if and when I am running 1 scanner and a cloak. Do you need to look that up too? :D :D
Let me summarize here. You're unhappy that you don't get team WP for scans, right? That seems to be the recurring theme in your posts. That's quite valid and understandable. I agree, you should get WP for team assists. Probably not 15, but 5 is totally reasonable.
So here's the thing... Why is this in any way related to BW? Where is the relationship? I don't really see one. Why not just push for a more equitable distribution of WP for other contributions rather than rail against the unrelated mechanic of BW and the red headed stepchildren of dust, the post-1.7 logi?
And good lord I have to lol at the people who somehow think it's even remotely problematic that you can switch to a different LOGI suit and still keep your EQ but use needles and reps or whatever. Common sense would like to have a word with you if your brain tells you that this is a) at all different than before or b) somehow unfair that EQ based suits can use EQ in a more effective manner than others.. That's just idiotic.
...Or you are unable to get past your prior ability to wh0re WP in your vastly more viable scout or sentinel suit while I hemorrhaged ISK in my logI suits trying vainly to perform a dying role.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
826
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Posted - 2014.12.31 08:15:00 -
[88] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:voidfaction wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:We could make it that when you activate your cloak your BW goes to zero. :D :D :p If I am running 2 scanners how many slots does my scout have left for a cloak? Come on IWS don't look it up answer from the top of your head. You been CPM for what 2 years you should know how many EQ slots a scout has. Head starting to hurt yet? After you get done looking that up tell me how would making my BW go to 0 hurt me if and when I am running 1 scanner and a cloak. Do you need to look that up too? :D :D Let me summarize here. You're unhappy that you don't get team WP for scans, right? That seems to be the recurring theme in your posts. That's quite valid and understandable. I agree, you should get WP for team assists. Probably not 15, but 5 is totally reasonable. So here's the thing... Why is this in any way related to BW? Where is the relationship? I don't really see one. Why not just push for a more equitable distribution of WP for other contributions rather than rail against the unrelated mechanic of BW and the red headed stepchildren of dust, the post-1.7 logi? And good lord I have to lol at the people who somehow think it's even remotely problematic that you can switch to a different LOGI suit and still keep your EQ but use needles and reps or whatever. Common sense would like to have a word with you if your brain tells you that this is a) at all different than before or b) somehow unfair that EQ based suits can use EQ in a more effective manner than others.. That's just idiotic. ...Or you are unable to get past your prior ability to wh0re WP in your vastly more viable scout or sentinel suit while I hemorrhaged ISK in my logI suits trying vainly to perform a dying role.
I would agree with +5 WP on scanned kills.
It was the not getting WP for my scans that lead me to realize the unfairness in the how dropped equipment was used.
I thought If ANYONE can w hore WP from the whole team with uplinks and hives and not have them on their present fitting then everyone should be able to w hore WP from the team with equipment they have to have on their fitting (scanners).
Read that twice and tell me how I realized Hey, They are getting WP and not even running the EQ. I can't get WP for running with my EQ. To hell with WP I want to be able to use my scanner without having it on my fitting too. Where do I get my scanner I can use without it on my fitting? Is it listed under scanner that takes no slot and no cpu or pg?
Now am i against the logi? NO. Am I against them getting buffed? YES, Because after learning they have virtually 8 EQ slots with this stupid system of load in drop all EQ then switch to active tools then they are not the redheaded step child they are support monsters and they should be. Now I have even said BW is better then what we had before but it did not really fix anything because now instead of loading in a logi and dropping all eq and switching to a slayer suit everyone loads in assault/commando and a few logi drops EQ and switches to different 16bw fitting.
You want to make logi needed let them keep their virtual 8 EQ slots but force the others to have to spawn with the eq they have dropped in order to keep in on the field. Logi is support so make them support assault is not support so make them assaults. just like my scout is a scout and uses cloak and ewar (scanners)
Now as far as me w horing WP in my more viable SCOUT as I have 0 pts in any suit other than cal and gal scout. Feel free to click on my signature to see what i run over 90% of the time and what I am skilled in. I am by far not w horing any WP, taking advantage of a garbage game mechanic with EQ that is not on my fitting, or proto stomping pubs
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5023
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Posted - 2014.12.31 08:46:00 -
[89] - Quote
So I wasnt referring to you personally about wh0ring WP since I already read you run scans and it doesn't take a genius to figure out you're a scout from your corp tag alone. Chill, I'm being less antagonistic than it seems... Towards you at least.
Anyway, since by your own admission this is better than before, what's the major problem here? Iteration is always good, you can always tweak from this point.
Also, if it's better, it had to have fixed something. In this case the "playstyle" or "skill" of crapping out 9 uplinks to steal my WP (yes, MY f*cking WP as an Amarr logi) and then switching to an HMG sentinel has died the can't-be-horrible-enough-for-its-crimes-against-humanity death it so richly deserved. That's a huge positive step for this game.
As for the other part, it's late and admittedly I'm not totally sure what you're getting at... But if I do understand correctly I've always felt that locking someone only to EQ that's actively on your suit is too restrctive in their current state.
That said, as a general rule I wouldn't argue against limiting EQ functionality on non logi suits to reduce spam so that's something to consider/debate.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
826
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Posted - 2014.12.31 09:23:00 -
[90] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:So I wasnt referring to you personally about wh0ring WP since I already read you run scans and it doesn't take a genius to figure out you're a scout from your corp tag alone. Chill, I'm being less antagonistic than it seems... Towards you at least.
Anyway, since by your own admission this is better than before, what's the major problem here? Iteration is always good, you can always tweak from this point.
Also, if it's better, it had to have fixed something. In this case the "playstyle" or "skill" of crapping out 9 uplinks to steal my WP (yes, MY f*cking WP as an Amarr logi) and then switching to an HMG sentinel has died the can't-be-horrible-enough-for-its-crimes-against-humanity death it so richly deserved. That's a huge positive step for this game.
As for the other part, it's late and admittedly I'm not totally sure what you're getting at... But if I do understand correctly I've always felt that locking someone only to EQ that's actively on your suit is too restrctive in their current state.
That said, as a general rule I wouldn't argue against limiting EQ functionality on non logi suits to reduce spam so that's something to consider/debate.
I hate the uplink spam. Have you noticed you see A LOT less hives but at least 2x more uplinks since the BW update?
If it were up to me no suit other than a Logi would be able to drop/keep more than 1.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
749
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Posted - 2014.12.31 09:54:00 -
[91] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:[quote=Nothing Certain]
Granted, as people have mentioned, they could deploy their assault, put down uplinks in it, then switch to the same assault with active equipment instead of deployable, thereby cheating the system.
For the record, I don't think that is cheating at all. That's just smart. I do the exact same thing in my logi suit once I have reached my bandwidth threshold. It's a totally legit thing to do as it adheres to the limitations placed upon us by the bandwidth system.
Let's not mistake ingenuity with foul play. |
voidfaction
Nos Nothi
826
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Posted - 2014.12.31 10:08:00 -
[92] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:Logi Bro wrote:[quote=Nothing Certain]
Granted, as people have mentioned, they could deploy their assault, put down uplinks in it, then switch to the same assault with active equipment instead of deployable, thereby cheating the system. For the record, I don't think that is cheating at all. That's just smart. I do the exact same thing in my logi suit once I have reached my bandwidth threshold. It's a totally legit thing to do as it adheres to the limitations placed upon us by the bandwidth system. Let's not mistake ingenuity with foul play.
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
[edit] No wait, That would require the use of logi and we can't have a game mode that makes them needed.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
749
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Posted - 2014.12.31 10:38:00 -
[93] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Logistics
noun
definition: the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.
military usage: the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.
Bandwidth is allowing logis to truly be the masters of the supply line and quantity matters just as much quality. If you're a true logi, you should be thrilled by this and thriving in your intended role.
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
826
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Posted - 2014.12.31 10:57:00 -
[94] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:voidfaction wrote:
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Logistics noun definition: the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.military usage: the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.Bandwidth is allowing logis to truly be the masters of the supply line and quantity matters just as much quality. If you're a true logi, you should be thrilled by this and thriving in your intended role.
Problem is everyone else is dropping eq and still switching to slayer fitts. I mean how many uplinks do you really need on 1 roof? in 1 battle? example: if over half of 1 team can have 4 uplinks active each and run slayer fitts what is the need for a logi? I don't care if a logi can have 8 virtual eq slots. My problem is the slayer fitting having equipment dropped and not running it on their fitting. Limit everyone but logi to having no more than 1 deployed SUPPORT equipment. Force the use of logi instead of the dual role assault, commandos and even scouts. Let the logi drop 50 uplinks or hives I don't care because that is the role of a logistics.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6105
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Posted - 2014.12.31 11:19:00 -
[95] - Quote
I shall do "slayer fit logi"
"What ho good sir, I have just dropped all of my hives and will now swap to my tanked fit with cheap equipment and help you push the objective!"
*enemy comes around the corner, sees bright yellow and opens fire. Bullets are exchanged, but alas, the logi fails to have the mobility or firepower of the enemy Assault and dies.*
"Must have been a fluke! Here we go again!"
*fatty belly flops on him*
"will..." *primaried, respawns.*
"you..." *primaried, respawns.*
"Bastards." *primaried, respawns.*
"Quit" *primaried, respawns.*
"Shooting..." *primaried, respawns.*
"Me..." *primaried, respawns.*
First..." *primaried, respawns.*
yeah. flashy yellow suits. Slayer fit logis are a HUGE worry as you can see with their lower tank than assaults.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
826
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Posted - 2014.12.31 11:34:00 -
[96] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I shall do "slayer fit logi"
"What ho good sir, I have just dropped all of my hives and will now swap to my tanked fit with cheap equipment and help you push the objective!"
*enemy comes around the corner, sees bright yellow and opens fire. Bullets are exchanged, but alas, the logi fails to have the mobility or firepower of the enemy Assault and dies.*
"Must have been a fluke! Here we go again!"
*fatty belly flops on him*
"will..." *primaried, respawns.*
"you..." *primaried, respawns.*
"Bastards." *primaried, respawns.*
"Quit" *primaried, respawns.*
"Shooting..." *primaried, respawns.*
"Me..." *primaried, respawns.*
First..." *primaried, respawns.*
yeah. flashy yellow suits. Slayer fit logis are a HUGE worry as you can see with their lower tank than assaults.
I really don't think anyone here is saying a logi is switching to a slayer logi. It is the assaults that can have 4 uplinks active while being slayer assaults.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6107
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Posted - 2014.12.31 12:08:00 -
[97] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:
I really don't think anyone here is saying a logi is switching to a slayer logi. It is the assaults that can have 4 uplinks active while being slayer assaults.
this is what equipment is for. Bandwidth wasn't intended to stop non-logis from USING them.
It was intended to stop people from using as MANY of them as EFFECTIVELY as a logi can without having the suit on the field.
There's a difference.
an assault can't choke the map and use up all 16 of a team's allowed uplinks by himself anymore then swap to slay. He can't crap out armor hive after armor hive and rep through oncoming fire by himself.
a logi sitting on top of him can potentially do this. But making it happen requires two players, one to be the force, one to MULTIPLY that force.
Teamwork is OP, and now it's required that teamwork be used to benefit from logistics bennies. It's that simple. It's no longer One player to wreck them all, one player to hive them, one player to link them all and in fatsuits fry them.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3398
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Posted - 2014.12.31 14:26:00 -
[98] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:voidfaction wrote:
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Logistics noun definition: the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.military usage: the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.Bandwidth is allowing logis to truly be the masters of the supply line and quantity matters just as much quality. If you're a true logi, you should be thrilled by this and thriving in your intended role.
I have to disagree with you on this.
If you are a true logi, you always carry your nanohives with you, to better expedite ammo to team-mates in need. You always carry your uplinks with you so you can create a new spawn point as the battlefield changes and enemy positions change.
Spamming as much equipment as BW lets you then changing to pure active equipment is not, "a true logi." Deployable equipment isn't about having as many as you can on the field, it's about placing them is appropriate locations at appropriate times, and you are doing neither if you place it all at once in relative close proximity to each other.
This is, simply put, the mentality of a WP farmer.
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
150
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Posted - 2014.12.31 15:13:00 -
[99] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:SirManBoy wrote:voidfaction wrote:
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Logistics noun definition: the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.military usage: the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.Bandwidth is allowing logis to truly be the masters of the supply line and quantity matters just as much quality. If you're a true logi, you should be thrilled by this and thriving in your intended role. I have to disagree with you on this. If you are a true logi, you always carry your nanohives with you, to better expedite ammo to team-mates in need. You always carry your uplinks with you so you can create a new spawn point as the battlefield changes and enemy positions change. Spamming as much equipment as BW lets you then changing to pure active equipment is not, "a true logi." Deployable equipment isn't about having as many as you can on the field, it's about placing them is appropriate locations at appropriate times, and you are doing neither if you place it all at once in relative close proximity to each other. This is, simply put, the mentality of a WP farmer.
There is advanced deployment and ongoing support. They are both necessary.
Advanced deployment happens less now because role-switchers are doing less of it. As a Logi, it made me all "jelly" to see a speed scout race in ahead and drop links and hives, then switch to a Sentinel for the rest of the battle. That job, I thought, was what a dedicated Logi should be doing and getting "credit" for. It just so happened that folks who did this also tended to spam those links and hives when they could get to a supply depot because they didn't take the role seriously and took advantage of every "feature" of the system. Perhaps only 25% of what they deployed was team-useful. Bandwidth threw this 25% out with the spam. Perhaps more Logi's will enter the game and make up the difference, but I certainly see less advance-deployed equipment now than before. I used to NEVER see a map that didn't have at least one uplink to fall back on. Now it happens, and the rare dedicated Logi is sore pressed to make up the difference when it does.
The ongoing support duty you describe is also essential to the team, and my favorite aspect of being a squad-support Logi. But it is very difficult to do given the harsh limits on # carried (not deployable) of equipment. There are several threads which suggest increasing this, particularly for Logi suits or skills. I think that needs to happen. It was suggested that a Logi revamp would happen right after Bandwidth, and would include something along those lines. Still waiting...
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
752
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Posted - 2014.12.31 15:50:00 -
[100] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:SirManBoy wrote:voidfaction wrote:
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Logistics noun definition: the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.military usage: the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.Bandwidth is allowing logis to truly be the masters of the supply line and quantity matters just as much quality. If you're a true logi, you should be thrilled by this and thriving in your intended role. I have to disagree with you on this. If you are a true logi, you always carry your nanohives with you, to better expedite ammo to team-mates in need. You always carry your uplinks with you so you can create a new spawn point as the battlefield changes and enemy positions change. Spamming as much equipment as BW lets you then changing to pure active equipment is not, "a true logi." Deployable equipment isn't about having as many as you can on the field, it's about placing them is appropriate locations at appropriate times, and you are doing neither if you place it all at once in relative close proximity to each other. This is, simply put, the mentality of a WP farmer.
Weird. And here I thought I was just one of the best logis in the game. I guess I should really reconsider my tactics. You know, because I'm a WP farmer or whatever.
But seriously, you play your way and I'll play my way. My squads appreciate what I do--having numerous well placed proto uplinks placed on the field at all times, non-stop dual proto scanners, proto repping, frequent orbital strikes, etc.--and that's all the proof I need to support and justify my play style.
No offense intended. |
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
827
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:08:00 -
[101] - Quote
Dubya Guy wrote:Logi Bro wrote:SirManBoy wrote:voidfaction wrote:
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Logistics noun definition: the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.military usage: the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.Bandwidth is allowing logis to truly be the masters of the supply line and quantity matters just as much quality. If you're a true logi, you should be thrilled by this and thriving in your intended role. I have to disagree with you on this. If you are a true logi, you always carry your nanohives with you, to better expedite ammo to team-mates in need. You always carry your uplinks with you so you can create a new spawn point as the battlefield changes and enemy positions change. Spamming as much equipment as BW lets you then changing to pure active equipment is not, "a true logi." Deployable equipment isn't about having as many as you can on the field, it's about placing them is appropriate locations at appropriate times, and you are doing neither if you place it all at once in relative close proximity to each other. This is, simply put, the mentality of a WP farmer. There is advanced deployment and ongoing support. They are both necessary. Advanced deployment happens less now because role-switchers are doing less of it. As a Logi, it made me all "jelly" to see a speed scout race in ahead and drop links and hives, then switch to a Sentinel for the rest of the battle. That job, I thought, was what a dedicated Logi should be doing and getting "credit" for. It just so happened that folks who did this also tended to spam those links and hives when they could get to a supply depot because they didn't take the role seriously and took advantage of every "feature" of the system. Perhaps only 25% of what they deployed was team-useful. Bandwidth threw this 25% out with the spam. Perhaps more Logi's will enter the game and make up the difference, but I certainly see less advance-deployed equipment now than before. I used to NEVER see a map that didn't have at least one uplink to fall back on. Now it happens, and the rare dedicated Logi is sore pressed to make up the difference when it does. The ongoing support duty you describe is also essential to the team, and my favorite aspect of being a squad-support Logi. But it is very difficult to do given the harsh limits on # carried (not deployable) of equipment. There are several threads which suggest increasing this, particularly for Logi suits or skills. I think that needs to happen. It was suggested that a Logi revamp would happen right after Bandwidth, and would include something along those lines. Still waiting... The matches I have been in you have a good 5 uplinks on the rooftops of every objective and plenty more scattered around the map either on my team or the enemy. Running 2 flux scanners and all you see is uplinks everywhere from 200m away. I see it being spammed like crazy. I guess my MU has me in the uplink spammers matchmaking ratting.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
752
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:10:00 -
[102] - Quote
Dubya Guy wrote:Logi Bro wrote:SirManBoy wrote:voidfaction wrote:
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Logistics noun definition: the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.military usage: the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.Bandwidth is allowing logis to truly be the masters of the supply line and quantity matters just as much quality. If you're a true logi, you should be thrilled by this and thriving in your intended role. I have to disagree with you on this. If you are a true logi, you always carry your nanohives with you, to better expedite ammo to team-mates in need. You always carry your uplinks with you so you can create a new spawn point as the battlefield changes and enemy positions change. Spamming as much equipment as BW lets you then changing to pure active equipment is not, "a true logi." Deployable equipment isn't about having as many as you can on the field, it's about placing them is appropriate locations at appropriate times, and you are doing neither if you place it all at once in relative close proximity to each other. This is, simply put, the mentality of a WP farmer. There is advanced deployment and ongoing support. They are both necessary. Advanced deployment happens less now because role-switchers are doing less of it. As a Logi, it made me all "jelly" to see a speed scout race in ahead and drop links and hives, then switch to a Sentinel for the rest of the battle. That job, I thought, was what a dedicated Logi should be doing and getting "credit" for. It just so happened that folks who did this also tended to spam those links and hives when they could get to a supply depot because they didn't take the role seriously and took advantage of every "feature" of the system. Perhaps only 25% of what they deployed was team-useful. Bandwidth threw this 25% out with the spam. Perhaps more Logi's will enter the game and make up the difference, but I certainly see less advance-deployed equipment now than before. I used to NEVER see a map that didn't have at least one uplink to fall back on. Now it happens, and the rare dedicated Logi is sore pressed to make up the difference when it does. The ongoing support duty you describe is also essential to the team, and my favorite aspect of being a squad-support Logi. But it is very difficult to do given the harsh limits on # carried (not deployable) of equipment. There are several threads which suggest increasing this, particularly for Logi suits or skills. I think that needs to happen. It was suggested that a Logi revamp would happen right after Bandwidth, and would include something along those lines. Still waiting...
Nice post, Dubya Guy.
I lay a thick first coat down when it comes to my uplinks and then I maintain those numbers as the match goes on. I see no harm with laying out my equipment and then switching to a suit that has no deployables at all. If I am confident in my ability to defend those deployables and I can switch to a suit that gives me another asset to help my team, then whose place is it to question my methodology?
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
772
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:05:00 -
[103] - Quote
Looking back at my replays.. just about ever game I play now is one-sided. I think band with is allowing better players to easily predict how a game is evolving and squash it earily. It removes them wildcard players that can turn battles around.
I think if you wanted easy mode the band with has really changed the game into a stomp or be stomped play style.
I see lots more players disconnecting from battles not just the players whom care about k d.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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Scheneighnay McBob
Cult of Gasai
5961
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:10:00 -
[104] - Quote
I have never stuck to 1 role in Dust. Even with my recent respec, all I did was narrow it down to every single role that minmatar suits are capable of.
I like being able to do whatever I feel like at the moment.
pé¦pé½péªpâêpü»püäpüäpüêpéÆF¿Çpüúpüƒn+ƒ
pü»püäpéÆF¿Çpüúpüªpâ¬péñpâòpâ½n+ü
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5936
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:11:00 -
[105] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:Looking back at my replays.. just about ever game I play now is one-sided. I think band with is allowing better players to easily predict how a game is evolving and squash it earily. It removes them wildcard players that can turn battles around.
I think if you wanted easy mode the band with has really changed the game into a stomp or be stomped play style.
I see lots more players disconnecting from battles not just the players whom care about k d. You are still going on with the bandwidth whining? Adapt.
In reality, bandwidth requires a team to have good role composition now. You can't have a super slayer player also pull double duty as a logi by flinging a dozen uplinks everywhere at the beginning of a match. With bandwidth in place the team needs that super slayer AND an accompanying player running logi to fling those uplinks, repair tool, etc.
The best way to ensure this is to join a squad OH NO I SAID THE "S" WORD!
In a squad, you and your squadmates can talk pre-match.
"I'll pack uplinks and so will Steve."
"I'm going to run scout with a scanner this time."
"Good. I'm going assault with needles."
You have done the pre-planning necessary to ensure the team has what it needs to earn a victory.
But solo players, they just derp around trying to guess what the team needs when half of the blueberries probably don't even speak your native language.
My advice to you, playa...
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VikingKong iBUN
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
335
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:12:00 -
[106] - Quote
The reason people are encouraged to play one role is so that they can put all their SP into that role and become better faster.
If you're making your character to be good at 3 different roles then he's gonna suck at all of them til he has about 40 million SP.
I'd say being good at one role is probably more fun than being **** at 3 roles. |
NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
773
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:37:00 -
[107] - Quote
Lol .. trolling aside just look at end of battle how much damage the mcc has compared to the other team. We have enough players to have enough of a sample size.
Nothing to adapt into I agree the new play style is only fun for logins.. boring otherwise.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5949
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:56:00 -
[108] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:Nothing to adapt into I agree the new play style is only fun for logins.. boring otherwise. Are you aware that commandos, scouts, and assaults get equipment too? Sure, it won't perform as well as a logi, and you can't field a dozen deployables. It still nets you WPs and helps your team/squad.
Or are you willingly ignoring that fact?
My advice to you, playa...
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
774
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 18:03:00 -
[109] - Quote
I been playing exclusively commando and assault since the patch. Open your eyes and look at how the battles are now. The battles are easier to control now so my experience is it is removing that excitement from the game. Get off your high horse and look at the **** your standing on..
At very least uplink should be excluded from thr bandwidth at least in pub matches anyway. Game are boring and a bunch of blues can't push themselves out of the red line.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
775
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 18:14:00 -
[110] - Quote
As much as it pains me to say this bandwidth should be exlusivily a nano hive only function.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
828
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 18:39:00 -
[111] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:NextDark Knight wrote:Looking back at my replays.. just about ever game I play now is one-sided. I think band with is allowing better players to easily predict how a game is evolving and squash it earily. It removes them wildcard players that can turn battles around.
I think if you wanted easy mode the band with has really changed the game into a stomp or be stomped play style.
I see lots more players disconnecting from battles not just the players whom care about k d. You are still going on with the bandwidth whining? Adapt. In reality, bandwidth requires a team to have good role composition now. You can't have a super slayer player also pull double duty as a logi by flinging a dozen uplinks everywhere at the beginning of a match. With bandwidth in place the team needs that super slayer AND an accompanying player running logi to fling those uplinks, repair tool, etc. The best way to ensure this is to join a squad OH NO I SAID THE "S" WORD! In a squad, you and your squadmates can talk pre-match. "I'll pack uplinks and so will Steve." "I'm going to run scout with a scanner this time." "Good. I'm going assault with needles." You have done the pre-planning necessary to ensure the team has what it needs to earn a victory. But solo players, they just derp around trying to guess what the team needs when half of the blueberries probably don't even speak your native language.
Or everyone drop uplinks then switch to slayer assault. that seems to be what im seeing.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5956
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 18:43:00 -
[112] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Or everyone drop uplinks then switch to slayer assault. that seems to be what im seeing. It's a good tactic. Open with the deployable assault, then switch to the needle/active scanner assault. Switch back to deployables if you notice your uplinks have popped.
/me rolls in WPs.
My advice to you, playa...
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
756
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 19:25:00 -
[113] - Quote
Anyone here who feels that there aren't enough uplinks on the field AND they admit to not being a logi needs to do the following:
BECOME A LOGI AND BE IN CHARGE OF KEEPING UPLINKS ON THE FIELD FOR YOUR TEAM.
Oh, you mean you don't like being horribly out tanked, out gunned, and/or out maneuvered by the rest of the field? Yeah, me neither, but I do the job anyway because despite the sacrifices support work is fun and I enjoy helping my team.
Bandwidth is here for good. The days of being able to have your cake and eat it too are over. Don't whine. Adapt. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5965
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 19:49:00 -
[114] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:Bandwidth is here for good. The days of being able to have your cake and eat it too are over. Don't whine. Adapt. Goooood, gooood. Let the hate flow through you. Use it to punish the logi tourists.
My advice to you, playa...
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3398
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 20:20:00 -
[115] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:But seriously, you play your way and I'll play my way. My squads appreciate what I do--having numerous well placed proto uplinks placed on the field at all times, non-stop dual proto scanners, proto repping, frequent orbital strikes, etc.--and that's all the proof I need to support and justify my play style.
No offense intended.
Thing is, the way you play vs the way I play is irrelevant. The topic of discussion when you quoted me for the first time was cheating BW by changing to all active equipment, and it is cheating. Allow me to explain.
Ask yourself this. What was it that BW was implemented for? To stop someone from playing multiple roles by deploying large sums of equipment as a logi and then changing to a slayer? To stop equipment spam? To buff logi's? I'd say all of the above.
Now, obviously CCP was the one who put BW in the game, and continuing along that thought, that means CCP does not condone playing multiple roles at once, and continuing even farther with that thought, then if you are playing multiple roles at once, then you are cheating the game, since it conflicts with the game designer's intentions. Logical, right?
So, with the tactic you described, what are you doing if not playing multiple roles at once? At most, a logi will hold 4 equipment. If you use a logi with 4 equipment for your tactic, then you have 8 equipment at once. Therefore, you are playing the role of two logi's at one time. And with the previous paragraph's conclusion, that means it is cheating.
Undoubtedly your team likes your playstyle, how is that any justification to have it in the game? I liked my team-mates' playstyles when they spammed tanks in the days of god-tanks, did that justify god-tanks? No, it just means I liked it because I won the game with them on my team. Just like I hated it when they were on the enemy team.
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1258
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 20:54:00 -
[116] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:[...] then you are cheating the game, since it conflicts with the game designer's intentions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxi-IUnCN_8
If CCP intended for the game to work in a particular way, then they should have put controls in place to ensure that the game works that way.
There is no cheating; only what a man can do and what a man can't do.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
764
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 21:00:00 -
[117] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Logi Bro wrote:[...] then you are cheating the game, since it conflicts with the game designer's intentions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxi-IUnCN_8If CCP intended for the game to work in a particular way, then they should have put controls in place to ensure that the game works that way. There is no cheating; only what a man can do and what a man can't do.
You are a gentleman and a scholar. |
Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3399
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 21:07:00 -
[118] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Logi Bro wrote:[...] then you are cheating the game, since it conflicts with the game designer's intentions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxi-IUnCN_8If CCP intended for the game to work in a particular way, then they should have put controls in place to ensure that the game works that way. There is no cheating; only what a man can do and what a man can't do.
You would think so, wouldn't you? And yet we had the ability to recover all of our health by switching our fits at a supply depot for years, and CCP only just recently fixed it. God-tanks. Grenade spam. Slayer logi's. Swarm launchers that locked on to people. All were things that you were able to do, but CCP made changes to the game to prevent you from doing them, since you either weren't supposed to do it, or you were doing it too well.
In a game like this, where updates and constant and never-ending, there are most certainly cheats and exploits.
As another example: I don't play EvE, but I believe I have heard that you can be permanently banned from the game for evading Concord, since you aren't meant to be able to do it.
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3399
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 21:11:00 -
[119] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi Bro wrote:[...] then you are cheating the game, since it conflicts with the game designer's intentions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxi-IUnCN_8If CCP intended for the game to work in a particular way, then they should have put controls in place to ensure that the game works that way. There is no cheating; only what a man can do and what a man can't do. You are a gentleman and a scholar.
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
765
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 21:38:00 -
[120] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:SirManBoy wrote:But seriously, you play your way and I'll play my way. My squads appreciate what I do--having numerous well placed proto uplinks placed on the field at all times, non-stop dual proto scanners, proto repping, frequent orbital strikes, etc.--and that's all the proof I need to support and justify my play style.
No offense intended. Thing is, the way you play vs the way I play is irrelevant. The topic of discussion when you quoted me for the first time was cheating BW by changing to all active equipment, and it is cheating. Allow me to explain. Ask yourself this. What was it that BW was implemented for? To stop someone from playing multiple roles by deploying large sums of equipment as a logi and then changing to a slayer? To stop equipment spam? To buff logi's? I'd say all of the above. Now, obviously CCP was the one who put BW in the game, and continuing along that thought, that means CCP does not condone playing multiple roles at once, and continuing even farther with that thought, then if you are playing multiple roles at once, then you are cheating the game, since it conflicts with the game designer's intentions. Logical, right? So, with the tactic you described, what are you doing if not playing multiple roles at once? At most, a logi will hold 4 equipment. If you use a logi with 4 equipment for your tactic, then you have 8 equipment at once. Therefore, you are playing the role of two logi's at one time. And with the previous paragraph's conclusion, that means it is cheating. Undoubtedly your team likes your playstyle, how is that any justification to have it in the game? I liked my team-mates' playstyles when they spammed tanks in the days of god-tanks, did that justify god-tanks? No, it just means I liked it because I won the game with them on my team. Just like I hated it when they were on the enemy team.
You know what's interesting about my position on the CPM? I sometimes get a bit of insight into the game designer's intentions. Would you like me to specifically address why everything you just said is baseless conjecture, or would you prefer to take my word for it?
Ah heck, here's a short, fact-based rebuttal, whether you like it or not:
BW was designed to literally define the amount of deployable equipment you can place on the field at any one time based on your class, race, and suit level. Nothing more. All actions within that framework which adhere to that basic principle are permissible. A good way to tell if your actions violate the rules of the system is to observe whether or not your equipment starts popping. You see, nothing I'm doing pops my equipment, therefore I am in complete compliance with the system architect's exact intentions.  |
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3399
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 22:41:00 -
[121] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:You know what's interesting about my position on the CPM? I sometimes get a bit of insight into the game designer's intentions. Would you like me to specifically address why everything you just said is baseless conjecture, or would you prefer to take my word for it? Ah heck, here's a short, fact-based rebuttal, whether you like it or not: BW was designed to literally define the amount of deployable equipment you can place on the field at any one time based on your class, race, and suit level. Nothing more. All actions within that framework which adhere to that basic principle are permissible. A good way to tell if your actions violate the rules of the system is to observe whether or not your equipment starts popping. You see, nothing I'm doing pops my equipment, therefore I am in complete compliance with the system architect's exact intentions.
Basically all that you've said is, "even though the introduction of BW points all signs to the developers not wanting a single person to play multiple roles, they've spoken to me and only me, and that isn't the case, so just trust me."
As if you've ever at any point earned the trust of the community by doing anything at all. I've never even seen you making a presence in any thread besides this one and another dev thread where all you posted was, "In." Obviously I haven't read every thread ever made, but even the small number of threads I do read, I regularly see IWS, Soraya, and Zatara, and they actually contribute to the discussion instead of just saying, "I know what the devs want, and this isn't it."
As to one of your specific statements, "A good way to tell if your actions violate the rules of the system is to observe whether or not your equipment starts popping," you see, I already broke that argument when I responded to Clone D. You aren't even arguing that I'm wrong(because you can't), you are just arguing that the game doesn't prevent you from doing it.
I would've thought you would have understood that I was implying that there should be a fix implemented to this problem, like adding BW to active equipment as well, but maybe that went over your head.
To top all of this off, you've stated that you use this tactic for your own benefit, so there's a conflict of interest if there ever was one. Obviously you wouldn't want a fix when you are actively gaining from this tactic. Maybe call up one of your CPM buddies to read my argument, and if they disagree they can actually give me an argument rather than, "I"m CPM I know what the devs want."
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1258
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 23:09:00 -
[122] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi Bro wrote:[...] then you are cheating the game, since it conflicts with the game designer's intentions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxi-IUnCN_8If CCP intended for the game to work in a particular way, then they should have put controls in place to ensure that the game works that way. There is no cheating; only what a man can do and what a man can't do. You would think so, wouldn't you? And yet we had the ability to recover all of our health by switching our fits at a supply depot for years, and CCP only just recently fixed it. God-tanks. Grenade spam. Slayer logi's. Swarm launchers that locked on to people. All were things that you were able to do, but CCP made changes to the game to prevent you from doing them, since you either weren't supposed to do it, or you were doing it too well.In a game like this, where updates and constant and never-ending, there are most certainly cheats and exploits. As another example: I don't play EvE, but I believe I have heard that you can be permanently banned from the game for evading Concord, since you aren't meant to be able to do it.
Sorry, I didn't know that you expected a response to this Logi Bro. I can respect your position that you hold a higher set of ideals; a code of ethics that you nobly live by. That shows integrity, an immeasurable virtue. I have my own as well. But that's the thing. If your conscience is clear and SirManBoy's conscience is clear, then all you have is a disagreement. It doesn't mean that one person is right or wrong. All that matters is what you are willing to do. Kudos to you for standing up for your opinion.
I am guessing that your conscience is not clear, since you are trying to convince someone else that they are cheating and that they should apply your standards to their system of values. I hope that you can come to terms with the fact that other people may not consider a behavior cheating just because you do.
With respect, D.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1437
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 01:56:00 -
[123] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:SirManBoy wrote:voidfaction wrote:
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Logistics noun definition: the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.military usage: the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.Bandwidth is allowing logis to truly be the masters of the supply line and quantity matters just as much quality. If you're a true logi, you should be thrilled by this and thriving in your intended role. I have to disagree with you on this. If you are a true logi, you always carry your nanohives with you, to better expedite ammo to team-mates in need. You always carry your uplinks with you so you can create a new spawn point as the battlefield changes and enemy positions change. Spamming as much equipment as BW lets you then changing to pure active equipment is not, "a true logi." Deployable equipment isn't about having as many as you can on the field, it's about placing them is appropriate locations at appropriate times, and you are doing neither if you place it all at once in relative close proximity to each other. This is, simply put, the mentality of a WP farmer.
No, it is the mentality of a logi who brings what is most needed. I have half a dozen fits, some with UL and/or hives and some without.
Because, that's why.
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
765
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 06:13:00 -
[124] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Basically all that you've said is, "even though the introduction of BW points all signs to the developers not wanting a single person to play multiple roles, they've spoken to me and only me, and that isn't the case, so just trust me."
You're a presumptuous bag of hot air who claims to know something you don't about the rationale behind the bandwidth system, so I am speaking to you accordingly. So yeah, my rhetoric is a bit more rude than my usual fare. Sorry, I guess.
Logi Bro wrote:As if you've ever at any point earned the trust of the community by doing anything at all. I've never even seen you making a presence in any thread besides this one and another dev thread where all you posted was, "In." Obviously I haven't read every thread ever made, but even the small number of threads I do read, I regularly see IWS, Soraya, and Zatara, and they actually contribute to the discussion instead of just saying, "I know what the devs want, and this isn't it."
I earned enough trust to get voted on this council, bub. And while I would never claim to be the most prolific poster on these forums, nor one of the top posters on the CPM, I have been active. Again, our spat is 100% related to your suppositions about the meaning behind the bandwidth system and your labeling of players as cheaters for simply not playing in accordance with the false paradigm you have created in your own mind. To be clear, your attitude doesn't put me in a particularly helpful mood.
Logi Bro wrote:As to one of your specific statements, "A good way to tell if your actions violate the rules of the system is to observe whether or not your equipment starts popping," you see, I already broke that argument when I responded to Clone D. You aren't even arguing that I'm wrong(because you can't), you are just arguing that the game doesn't prevent you from doing it.
If you're being intellectually consistent, then your definition of cheating includes both of the following scenarios:
Scenario #1:
Step 1 - The logi enters the game with an injector, rep tool, and uplinks.
Step 2 - The logi drops his uplinks and his bandwidth now stands at 8 mb/s out of 36 mb/s.
Step 3 - The logi goes to a supply depot and switches into a suit with an injector, rep tool, and nanohives.
Is this logi a cheater? Maybe you'll say no. If so, why is the following logi a cheater?:
Scenario #2:
Step 1 - The logi enters the game with an injector, rep tool, and uplinks.
Step 2 - The logi drops his uplinks and his bandwidth now stands at 8 mb/s out of 36 mb/s.
Step 3 - The logi goes to a supply depot and switches into a suit with an injector, rep tool, and scanner.
You have stated that this methodology is foul play. How can you possibly come to such a wild and biased conclusion when the bandwidth system is so clear, so literal, and so simple? It's meant to limit deployables by balancing the capability to disperse them based on the intended roles of each class. That's it. That's all. It's not a steel hammer meant to stamp out every ounce of creativity that a logi can muster in a suit series. Should I not be able to switch my weapons either? Does going into a logi suit with a swarm launcher violate your sensibilities because it allows me to maintain my bandwidth and provide AV at the same time?
Logi Bro wrote:I would've thought you would have understood that I was implying that there should be a fix implemented to this problem, like adding BW to active equipment as well, but maybe that went over your head.
No fix is necessary because there is no problem. The only problem I see here is your lack of ingenuity and your half-witted accusations of cheating.
Logi Bro wrote:To top all of this off, you've stated that you use this tactic for your own benefit, so there's a conflict of interest if there ever was one. Obviously you wouldn't want a fix when you are actively gaining from this tactic. Maybe call up one of your CPM buddies to read my argument, and if they disagree they can actually give me an argument rather than, "I"m CPM I know what the devs want."
1. I didn't design the system.
2. My tactics aren't a form of cheating.
3. The system doesn't need to be fixed because there is nothing wrong with it.
4. Your claim that a conflict of interest is present here is wholly predicated upon your spurious accusation that I am a cheater who benefits from a malfunctioning system that I somehow had a hand in designing for my own benefit.
As-salamu alaykum, Logi Bro. I am done conversing with you on this matter. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
18104
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 08:48:00 -
[125] - Quote
I love listening to real logis so easy to separate them from the tourists.
Also BW system was originally designed by the Dust 514 1.0 beta team on paper. Was not implemented until just recently. CPM only encouraged the logic and reasoning to develop it based on community woes the largest of which was that Logistic players were not being appreciated.
BW system is likely to never go away but instead evolve and adapt to newer equipment designs and game play methods from drones, more powerful deployables and interesting play and counterplay.
Imagine having BW expansion modules? BW jammers? 'Super powers' that come at the cost of shutting everything else off? Possibilities are limitless when BW becomes a conscious and up and forward subject similar to the ammo in your current gun's magazine
CPM 1
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
830
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 19:46:00 -
[126] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I love listening to real logis so easy to separate them from the tourists.
Also BW system was originally designed by the Dust 514 1.0 beta team on paper. Was not implemented until just recently. CPM only encouraged the logic and reasoning to develop it based on community woes the largest of which was that Logistic players were not being appreciated.
BW system is likely to never go away but instead evolve and adapt to newer equipment designs and game play methods from drones, more powerful deployables and interesting play and counterplay.
Imagine having BW expansion modules? BW jammers? 'Super powers' that come at the cost of shutting everything else off? Possibilities are limitless when BW becomes a conscious and up and forward subject similar to the ammo in your current gun's magazine
I know I am a tourist and I am in no way saying nerf the logi. The logi should be a support monster and the way BW works they can be. My problem is the assault, commando and even scout with its low BW able to drop so many uplinks or hives and switch to a repair, injector, scanner or no eq at all. To me it is like they are doing 2 roles.
I understand that we all can do it so it is fair. I just need to learn to add to the uplink spam and shut up.
I look forward to new equipment even as a scout. I hope for some scout drones or something that can help the scout role a little too.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
780
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 13:43:00 -
[127] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:
I know I am a tourist and I am in no way saying nerf the logi. The logi should be a support monster and the way BW works they can be. My problem is the assault, commando and even scout with its low BW able to drop so many uplinks or hives and switch to a repair, injector, scanner or no eq at all. To me it is like they are doing 2 roles.
After you cut though the bullshit Bandwidth was something fun they wanted to implement. It's a broken mechanic that just shoe horns this game into more of a lobby shooter then a MMO monster it should be.
Bandwidth just moves more blueberry into a easier area to find so they are killed easier and makes the battle easy to control. It's like shooting fish in the barrel now. All them people people yelling adapt or die really are just mindless idiots that are desperately trying to find meaning in a role. This buffs squad play to a new level of overpowered and no love for us solo players.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5986
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 13:49:00 -
[128] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:After you cut though the bullshit Bandwidth was something fun they wanted to implement. It's a broken mechanic that just shoe horns this game into more of a lobby shooter then a MMO monster it should be. Bandwidth allows logistics dropsuits to be useful beyond the first 2 minutes of a match, before you swap to your slayer assault, scout, or sentinel fitting You are so butthurt because you can't do this anymore that is a adorable.
NextDark Knight wrote:This buffs squad play to a new level of overpowered and no love for us solo players. Music to my ears
My advice to you, playa...
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Eros Adonai
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.01.02 14:31:00 -
[129] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:So I wasnt referring to you personally about wh0ring WP since I already read you run scans and it doesn't take a genius to figure out you're a scout from your corp tag alone. Chill, I'm being less antagonistic than it seems... Towards you at least.
Anyway, since by your own admission this is better than before, what's the major problem here? Iteration is always good, you can always tweak from this point.
Also, if it's better, it had to have fixed something. In this case the "playstyle" or "skill" of crapping out 9 uplinks to steal my WP (yes, MY f*cking WP as an Amarr logi) and then switching to an HMG sentinel has died the can't-be-horrible-enough-for-its-crimes-against-humanity death it so richly deserved. That's a huge positive step for this game.
As for the other part, it's late and admittedly I'm not totally sure what you're getting at... But if I do understand correctly I've always felt that locking someone only to EQ that's actively on your suit is too restrctive in their current state.
That said, as a general rule I wouldn't argue against limiting EQ functionality on non logi suits to reduce spam so that's something to consider/debate. I hate the uplink spam. Have you noticed you see A LOT less hives but at least 2x more uplinks since the BW update? If it were up to me no suit other than a Logi would be able to drop/keep more than 1.
Good luck deploying outside of your own redline...I know a lot of you seem to want the game tailored to suit your own play style, but seriously, this game is all the better for diversity...There's certain ideologies in theory, and then there's practical realities...I prefer to focus on the later... |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1436
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 15:02:00 -
[130] - Quote
This thread has gotten to the point where folks are just throwing rocks at each other and refusing to see that others simply have a different perspective on what the in-game effects are. This is exacerbated from both sides of the discussion I suspect.
I'm a dedicated support player. I enjoy the tactics, squad leading, GC'ing a team and such more than some of the gunplay itself. I run logi suits of different races and setups the vast majority of the time (85-90% range easy).
Some anecdotal but clearly observed pieces over the last couple weeks.
1) The majority of folks in pubs are solo. To Ripley and Z3dog...i pretty much check the team screen every match and you can see how many folks are in squads and how many aren't in pub matches i've rarely seen more than 50% of the team in squads. Often you see squads of 2-4 people. I do this because when I run solo I drop into a random squad so my WPs are helping someone out at least.
As an aside, I think Ambush used to have more solos but that may have changed with the daily missions (i.e. routine solo player in skirmish more to get hacking missions done or dominations to get high WP per match missions done).
2) As noted by SirManBoy, I am seeing slightly higher WP returns...nothing to judge this from or get objective data, just seems that way. I attribute this to less logi's on the field generally....and there weren't a lot of them to start with.
3) I am strongly against mechanics that attempt to constrain folks to single role play. I'm also against forcing people to shift their game through negative reinforcement methods. My perspective has always been that bandwidth is a much more punishing to player choice in regards to logi's than any other role. I thought there were several other incremental ways to achieve lowering equipment deployment on the field and highlighting logistics play but bandwidth was what they were going to go with from the get go.
Simply put, the bonuses or advantages you get from pretty much any other role revolve around killing (using different capabilities to do so) and the end result is the same. Scout swaps to heavy swaps to assault back to scout...it's about slaying for the most part. When you make a fluid switch to something else as a logi, even for the 90secs, you can incur a dramatic penalty that you simply don't have for switching other roles. Additionally, there needs to be a real balance pass on the actual bandwidth cost per equipment, bandwidth per suit, and the ability to see bandwidth remaining in the combat UI.
4) I rarely switch suits now, the cost to my team is usually too serious. It puts you in very tough positions to try and swap to AV to deal with 3x HAVs mobbing your point and farming your team or pop uplinks, hives, lose reps, etc. Other roles don't have than stark of a choice. The pain point on this pretty manageable personally but when the situation arises it sucks pretty bad.
5) I vastly prefer team play over solo play, however, you shouldn't push this view (or the opposite solo player stance) to the point it simply makes the game not fun for people that enjoy other aspects of the game. Bandwidth certainly highlights that coordinating roles, coms, and such is even more critical. For solo players...or even if you are in a squad but can't speak to the other 10 or 12 folks on your team it can be a bit of a pain.
6) I would be remiss if I didn't point out that something like bandwidth can be managed and worked with even if I think it is a poorly implemented way to constrain player flexibility. That said, the logi class dramatically needs some help and i don't see it coming on the horizon at all. I would like SirManBoy or Cross to chime in on this from the CPM perspective directly to the player community. The general performance, survivability, and cost of the logistics suits in combination to a well intentioned mechanic such as bandwidth is clearly thinning the ranks of support players.
Apologies for the long post, just took a bit to address several points in the thread.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 15:13:00 -
[131] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:
I agree with you. I've seen far too many peeps who want to lock peeps into roles and it bothers the hell out of me.
It's more worrisome and soul-destroying than the tiericide faction, imo.
Agreed .
As much as I can campain about this.. there is to many powers fighing to shoe horn people.. People like Ripple that want to force people to play the game only the way they see it and limit players options.. and the internal CCP staff and external CCP consultants that want to see this game burn to the ground.. after I hit my 514 days of consecutive logins I think I'm gonna call it quits. I held a candle of support on this game for far to long now and the great vision of Dust has been lost.
It was a good run but it all comes down to this,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5989
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 15:46:00 -
[132] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:People like Ripple that want to force people to play the game only the way they see it and limit players options. I'm not against players having options, but I am against options that negate a role entirely. No role should have it's bonuses used, then be able to be tossed aside. Imagine if you could fit a sentinel dropsuit, receive the resistance and splash damage reduction bonuses, plus fit heavy weapons to your dropsuits, then switch to a scout.
The sentinel wouldn't be very useful, would it?
Players would use it as a means to receive perks then switch to other dropsuits. That is what was happening to logi dropsuits. It was bullshit, and you know it.
NextDark Knight wrote:and the internal CCP staff and external CCP consultants that want to see this game burn to the ground. Yes, a business wants to see a source of profit "burn to the burn"... /s
Also, "Ripple"? I love it. It's my new nickname. Check the sig.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
My advice to you, playa...
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
768
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 16:05:00 -
[133] - Quote
Some trends I have been tracking for myself since the arrival of bandwidth include:
1. Far more WP per match.
2. A significant spike in my KDR. I lead squads and therefore control the warbarge strikes, so the marked increase in my WP production has given me more strike opportunities which has increased my kill numbers.
3. My win/loss ratio is climbing.
Some examples:
Match results 1
Match results 2
Now these performances aren't typical, but they happen relatively often. In general, I am consistently producing in excess of 2,500 WP and my match KDR is almost always over 2.0.
I am a dedicated support logi that predominantly specializes in uplink logistics, providing scans, and all purpose armor repping. My gun game is average at best and I am not a heavy hugger. I personally see nothing wrong with that style of play, but it's just not my thing.
Every logi in this game is capable of adapting to this system and being more successful now than they were before. You just have to understand how it works and take advantage of the fact that your squad and team is looking to you to be in charge of deployable gear. If you're a logi and your team is short on uplinks and ammo, then it is your fault for not providing that support. Do your job better. |
Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
161
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 16:32:00 -
[134] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:You just have to understand how it works and take advantage of the fact that your squad and team is looking to you to be in charge of deployable gear. If you're a logi and your team is short on uplinks and ammo, then it is your fault for not providing that support. Do your job better.
I agree with you. I sure could do my job better, though, if # carried (not deployable) were increased for hives and links so that we Logis could better take on this shift/re-alignment of responsibility. Cheap flux strikes exacerbate the challenge, and there's not always a supply depot around. Suiciding to bring back more gear, while noble, is a bit much to ask except under extreme circumstances. From one dedicated Logi to another, I plead with you as CPM to push hard for this. IMO, it should have gone in simultaneous with Bandwidth.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 18:11:00 -
[135] - Quote
Ask any HS or CI guys that you can find that quit around 1.3.. They shouldn't be under NDA anymore now that legion is announced. Then look up what a poisen pill is and try to figure out what devs threw a fit about Dust being console only and worked there magic to work the game into the ground. We could and should have had lots more in Dust.. luckey that mess is behind us and it's back in development (I hope).
Anyways.. getting off topic here. Back to looking at my numbers.. lack up uplinks I think are causing the games to be so one sided and as the original poster pointed out "boring"..
Bandwidth should be reworked to Nanohives only.. Remotes and proxies need a buff.. Sentinals are in a choak hold and what else.. stop balancing this to be a lobby shooter!!
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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Z3dog
BIG BAD W0LVES
99
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 07:19:00 -
[136] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:NextDark Knight wrote:People like Ripple that want to force people to play the game only the way they see it and limit players options. I'm not against players having options, but I am against options that negate a role entirely. No role should have it's bonuses used, then be able to be tossed aside. Imagine if you could fit a sentinel dropsuit, receive the resistance and splash damage reduction bonuses, plus fit heavy weapons to your dropsuits, then switch to a scout. The sentinel wouldn't be very useful, would it? Players would use it as a means to receive perks then switch to other dropsuits. That is what was happening to logi dropsuits. It was bullshit, and you know it. NextDark Knight wrote:and the internal CCP staff and external CCP consultants that want to see this game burn to the ground. Yes, a business wants to see a source of profit "burn to the burn"... /s Also, "Ripple"? I love it. It's my new nickname. Check the sig.
source of profit
bandwidth lol
And totally not p2w haha
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SgtMajSquish MLBJ
Consolidated Dust
260
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 08:39:00 -
[137] - Quote
Humans competent????? Have you seen what CCP has done to this game????
Rise and shine CCP. It's time to implement ping based match making.
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