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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3399
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Posted - 2014.12.31 22:41:00 -
[121] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:You know what's interesting about my position on the CPM? I sometimes get a bit of insight into the game designer's intentions. Would you like me to specifically address why everything you just said is baseless conjecture, or would you prefer to take my word for it? Ah heck, here's a short, fact-based rebuttal, whether you like it or not: BW was designed to literally define the amount of deployable equipment you can place on the field at any one time based on your class, race, and suit level. Nothing more. All actions within that framework which adhere to that basic principle are permissible. A good way to tell if your actions violate the rules of the system is to observe whether or not your equipment starts popping. You see, nothing I'm doing pops my equipment, therefore I am in complete compliance with the system architect's exact intentions. 
Basically all that you've said is, "even though the introduction of BW points all signs to the developers not wanting a single person to play multiple roles, they've spoken to me and only me, and that isn't the case, so just trust me."
As if you've ever at any point earned the trust of the community by doing anything at all. I've never even seen you making a presence in any thread besides this one and another dev thread where all you posted was, "In." Obviously I haven't read every thread ever made, but even the small number of threads I do read, I regularly see IWS, Soraya, and Zatara, and they actually contribute to the discussion instead of just saying, "I know what the devs want, and this isn't it."
As to one of your specific statements, "A good way to tell if your actions violate the rules of the system is to observe whether or not your equipment starts popping," you see, I already broke that argument when I responded to Clone D. You aren't even arguing that I'm wrong(because you can't), you are just arguing that the game doesn't prevent you from doing it.
I would've thought you would have understood that I was implying that there should be a fix implemented to this problem, like adding BW to active equipment as well, but maybe that went over your head.
To top all of this off, you've stated that you use this tactic for your own benefit, so there's a conflict of interest if there ever was one. Obviously you wouldn't want a fix when you are actively gaining from this tactic. Maybe call up one of your CPM buddies to read my argument, and if they disagree they can actually give me an argument rather than, "I"m CPM I know what the devs want."
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1258
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Posted - 2014.12.31 23:09:00 -
[122] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi Bro wrote:[...] then you are cheating the game, since it conflicts with the game designer's intentions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxi-IUnCN_8If CCP intended for the game to work in a particular way, then they should have put controls in place to ensure that the game works that way. There is no cheating; only what a man can do and what a man can't do. You would think so, wouldn't you? And yet we had the ability to recover all of our health by switching our fits at a supply depot for years, and CCP only just recently fixed it. God-tanks. Grenade spam. Slayer logi's. Swarm launchers that locked on to people. All were things that you were able to do, but CCP made changes to the game to prevent you from doing them, since you either weren't supposed to do it, or you were doing it too well.In a game like this, where updates and constant and never-ending, there are most certainly cheats and exploits. As another example: I don't play EvE, but I believe I have heard that you can be permanently banned from the game for evading Concord, since you aren't meant to be able to do it.
Sorry, I didn't know that you expected a response to this Logi Bro. I can respect your position that you hold a higher set of ideals; a code of ethics that you nobly live by. That shows integrity, an immeasurable virtue. I have my own as well. But that's the thing. If your conscience is clear and SirManBoy's conscience is clear, then all you have is a disagreement. It doesn't mean that one person is right or wrong. All that matters is what you are willing to do. Kudos to you for standing up for your opinion.
I am guessing that your conscience is not clear, since you are trying to convince someone else that they are cheating and that they should apply your standards to their system of values. I hope that you can come to terms with the fact that other people may not consider a behavior cheating just because you do.
With respect, D.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1437
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Posted - 2015.01.01 01:56:00 -
[123] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:SirManBoy wrote:voidfaction wrote:
Spam away everyone. The team with the most spammed equipment on the field while its not on their present fitting wins should be a game mode.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Logistics noun definition: the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, or supplies.military usage: the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.Bandwidth is allowing logis to truly be the masters of the supply line and quantity matters just as much quality. If you're a true logi, you should be thrilled by this and thriving in your intended role. I have to disagree with you on this. If you are a true logi, you always carry your nanohives with you, to better expedite ammo to team-mates in need. You always carry your uplinks with you so you can create a new spawn point as the battlefield changes and enemy positions change. Spamming as much equipment as BW lets you then changing to pure active equipment is not, "a true logi." Deployable equipment isn't about having as many as you can on the field, it's about placing them is appropriate locations at appropriate times, and you are doing neither if you place it all at once in relative close proximity to each other. This is, simply put, the mentality of a WP farmer.
No, it is the mentality of a logi who brings what is most needed. I have half a dozen fits, some with UL and/or hives and some without.
Because, that's why.
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
765
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Posted - 2015.01.01 06:13:00 -
[124] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Basically all that you've said is, "even though the introduction of BW points all signs to the developers not wanting a single person to play multiple roles, they've spoken to me and only me, and that isn't the case, so just trust me."
You're a presumptuous bag of hot air who claims to know something you don't about the rationale behind the bandwidth system, so I am speaking to you accordingly. So yeah, my rhetoric is a bit more rude than my usual fare. Sorry, I guess.
Logi Bro wrote:As if you've ever at any point earned the trust of the community by doing anything at all. I've never even seen you making a presence in any thread besides this one and another dev thread where all you posted was, "In." Obviously I haven't read every thread ever made, but even the small number of threads I do read, I regularly see IWS, Soraya, and Zatara, and they actually contribute to the discussion instead of just saying, "I know what the devs want, and this isn't it."
I earned enough trust to get voted on this council, bub. And while I would never claim to be the most prolific poster on these forums, nor one of the top posters on the CPM, I have been active. Again, our spat is 100% related to your suppositions about the meaning behind the bandwidth system and your labeling of players as cheaters for simply not playing in accordance with the false paradigm you have created in your own mind. To be clear, your attitude doesn't put me in a particularly helpful mood.
Logi Bro wrote:As to one of your specific statements, "A good way to tell if your actions violate the rules of the system is to observe whether or not your equipment starts popping," you see, I already broke that argument when I responded to Clone D. You aren't even arguing that I'm wrong(because you can't), you are just arguing that the game doesn't prevent you from doing it.
If you're being intellectually consistent, then your definition of cheating includes both of the following scenarios:
Scenario #1:
Step 1 - The logi enters the game with an injector, rep tool, and uplinks.
Step 2 - The logi drops his uplinks and his bandwidth now stands at 8 mb/s out of 36 mb/s.
Step 3 - The logi goes to a supply depot and switches into a suit with an injector, rep tool, and nanohives.
Is this logi a cheater? Maybe you'll say no. If so, why is the following logi a cheater?:
Scenario #2:
Step 1 - The logi enters the game with an injector, rep tool, and uplinks.
Step 2 - The logi drops his uplinks and his bandwidth now stands at 8 mb/s out of 36 mb/s.
Step 3 - The logi goes to a supply depot and switches into a suit with an injector, rep tool, and scanner.
You have stated that this methodology is foul play. How can you possibly come to such a wild and biased conclusion when the bandwidth system is so clear, so literal, and so simple? It's meant to limit deployables by balancing the capability to disperse them based on the intended roles of each class. That's it. That's all. It's not a steel hammer meant to stamp out every ounce of creativity that a logi can muster in a suit series. Should I not be able to switch my weapons either? Does going into a logi suit with a swarm launcher violate your sensibilities because it allows me to maintain my bandwidth and provide AV at the same time?
Logi Bro wrote:I would've thought you would have understood that I was implying that there should be a fix implemented to this problem, like adding BW to active equipment as well, but maybe that went over your head.
No fix is necessary because there is no problem. The only problem I see here is your lack of ingenuity and your half-witted accusations of cheating.
Logi Bro wrote:To top all of this off, you've stated that you use this tactic for your own benefit, so there's a conflict of interest if there ever was one. Obviously you wouldn't want a fix when you are actively gaining from this tactic. Maybe call up one of your CPM buddies to read my argument, and if they disagree they can actually give me an argument rather than, "I"m CPM I know what the devs want."
1. I didn't design the system.
2. My tactics aren't a form of cheating.
3. The system doesn't need to be fixed because there is nothing wrong with it.
4. Your claim that a conflict of interest is present here is wholly predicated upon your spurious accusation that I am a cheater who benefits from a malfunctioning system that I somehow had a hand in designing for my own benefit.
As-salamu alaykum, Logi Bro. I am done conversing with you on this matter. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
18104
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Posted - 2015.01.01 08:48:00 -
[125] - Quote
I love listening to real logis so easy to separate them from the tourists.
Also BW system was originally designed by the Dust 514 1.0 beta team on paper. Was not implemented until just recently. CPM only encouraged the logic and reasoning to develop it based on community woes the largest of which was that Logistic players were not being appreciated.
BW system is likely to never go away but instead evolve and adapt to newer equipment designs and game play methods from drones, more powerful deployables and interesting play and counterplay.
Imagine having BW expansion modules? BW jammers? 'Super powers' that come at the cost of shutting everything else off? Possibilities are limitless when BW becomes a conscious and up and forward subject similar to the ammo in your current gun's magazine
CPM 1
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
830
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Posted - 2015.01.01 19:46:00 -
[126] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I love listening to real logis so easy to separate them from the tourists.
Also BW system was originally designed by the Dust 514 1.0 beta team on paper. Was not implemented until just recently. CPM only encouraged the logic and reasoning to develop it based on community woes the largest of which was that Logistic players were not being appreciated.
BW system is likely to never go away but instead evolve and adapt to newer equipment designs and game play methods from drones, more powerful deployables and interesting play and counterplay.
Imagine having BW expansion modules? BW jammers? 'Super powers' that come at the cost of shutting everything else off? Possibilities are limitless when BW becomes a conscious and up and forward subject similar to the ammo in your current gun's magazine
I know I am a tourist and I am in no way saying nerf the logi. The logi should be a support monster and the way BW works they can be. My problem is the assault, commando and even scout with its low BW able to drop so many uplinks or hives and switch to a repair, injector, scanner or no eq at all. To me it is like they are doing 2 roles.
I understand that we all can do it so it is fair. I just need to learn to add to the uplink spam and shut up.
I look forward to new equipment even as a scout. I hope for some scout drones or something that can help the scout role a little too.
Proto Stomper G-I Scout
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
780
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Posted - 2015.01.02 13:43:00 -
[127] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:
I know I am a tourist and I am in no way saying nerf the logi. The logi should be a support monster and the way BW works they can be. My problem is the assault, commando and even scout with its low BW able to drop so many uplinks or hives and switch to a repair, injector, scanner or no eq at all. To me it is like they are doing 2 roles.
After you cut though the bullshit Bandwidth was something fun they wanted to implement. It's a broken mechanic that just shoe horns this game into more of a lobby shooter then a MMO monster it should be.
Bandwidth just moves more blueberry into a easier area to find so they are killed easier and makes the battle easy to control. It's like shooting fish in the barrel now. All them people people yelling adapt or die really are just mindless idiots that are desperately trying to find meaning in a role. This buffs squad play to a new level of overpowered and no love for us solo players.
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5986
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Posted - 2015.01.02 13:49:00 -
[128] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:After you cut though the bullshit Bandwidth was something fun they wanted to implement. It's a broken mechanic that just shoe horns this game into more of a lobby shooter then a MMO monster it should be. Bandwidth allows logistics dropsuits to be useful beyond the first 2 minutes of a match, before you swap to your slayer assault, scout, or sentinel fitting  You are so butthurt because you can't do this anymore that is a adorable.
NextDark Knight wrote:This buffs squad play to a new level of overpowered and no love for us solo players. Music to my ears 
My advice to you, playa...
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Eros Adonai
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.01.02 14:31:00 -
[129] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:So I wasnt referring to you personally about wh0ring WP since I already read you run scans and it doesn't take a genius to figure out you're a scout from your corp tag alone. Chill, I'm being less antagonistic than it seems... Towards you at least.
Anyway, since by your own admission this is better than before, what's the major problem here? Iteration is always good, you can always tweak from this point.
Also, if it's better, it had to have fixed something. In this case the "playstyle" or "skill" of crapping out 9 uplinks to steal my WP (yes, MY f*cking WP as an Amarr logi) and then switching to an HMG sentinel has died the can't-be-horrible-enough-for-its-crimes-against-humanity death it so richly deserved. That's a huge positive step for this game.
As for the other part, it's late and admittedly I'm not totally sure what you're getting at... But if I do understand correctly I've always felt that locking someone only to EQ that's actively on your suit is too restrctive in their current state.
That said, as a general rule I wouldn't argue against limiting EQ functionality on non logi suits to reduce spam so that's something to consider/debate. I hate the uplink spam. Have you noticed you see A LOT less hives but at least 2x more uplinks since the BW update? If it were up to me no suit other than a Logi would be able to drop/keep more than 1.
Good luck deploying outside of your own redline...I know a lot of you seem to want the game tailored to suit your own play style, but seriously, this game is all the better for diversity...There's certain ideologies in theory, and then there's practical realities...I prefer to focus on the later... |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1436
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Posted - 2015.01.02 15:02:00 -
[130] - Quote
This thread has gotten to the point where folks are just throwing rocks at each other and refusing to see that others simply have a different perspective on what the in-game effects are. This is exacerbated from both sides of the discussion I suspect.
I'm a dedicated support player. I enjoy the tactics, squad leading, GC'ing a team and such more than some of the gunplay itself. I run logi suits of different races and setups the vast majority of the time (85-90% range easy).
Some anecdotal but clearly observed pieces over the last couple weeks.
1) The majority of folks in pubs are solo. To Ripley and Z3dog...i pretty much check the team screen every match and you can see how many folks are in squads and how many aren't in pub matches i've rarely seen more than 50% of the team in squads. Often you see squads of 2-4 people. I do this because when I run solo I drop into a random squad so my WPs are helping someone out at least.
As an aside, I think Ambush used to have more solos but that may have changed with the daily missions (i.e. routine solo player in skirmish more to get hacking missions done or dominations to get high WP per match missions done).
2) As noted by SirManBoy, I am seeing slightly higher WP returns...nothing to judge this from or get objective data, just seems that way. I attribute this to less logi's on the field generally....and there weren't a lot of them to start with.
3) I am strongly against mechanics that attempt to constrain folks to single role play. I'm also against forcing people to shift their game through negative reinforcement methods. My perspective has always been that bandwidth is a much more punishing to player choice in regards to logi's than any other role. I thought there were several other incremental ways to achieve lowering equipment deployment on the field and highlighting logistics play but bandwidth was what they were going to go with from the get go.
Simply put, the bonuses or advantages you get from pretty much any other role revolve around killing (using different capabilities to do so) and the end result is the same. Scout swaps to heavy swaps to assault back to scout...it's about slaying for the most part. When you make a fluid switch to something else as a logi, even for the 90secs, you can incur a dramatic penalty that you simply don't have for switching other roles. Additionally, there needs to be a real balance pass on the actual bandwidth cost per equipment, bandwidth per suit, and the ability to see bandwidth remaining in the combat UI.
4) I rarely switch suits now, the cost to my team is usually too serious. It puts you in very tough positions to try and swap to AV to deal with 3x HAVs mobbing your point and farming your team or pop uplinks, hives, lose reps, etc. Other roles don't have than stark of a choice. The pain point on this pretty manageable personally but when the situation arises it sucks pretty bad.
5) I vastly prefer team play over solo play, however, you shouldn't push this view (or the opposite solo player stance) to the point it simply makes the game not fun for people that enjoy other aspects of the game. Bandwidth certainly highlights that coordinating roles, coms, and such is even more critical. For solo players...or even if you are in a squad but can't speak to the other 10 or 12 folks on your team it can be a bit of a pain.
6) I would be remiss if I didn't point out that something like bandwidth can be managed and worked with even if I think it is a poorly implemented way to constrain player flexibility. That said, the logi class dramatically needs some help and i don't see it coming on the horizon at all. I would like SirManBoy or Cross to chime in on this from the CPM perspective directly to the player community. The general performance, survivability, and cost of the logistics suits in combination to a well intentioned mechanic such as bandwidth is clearly thinning the ranks of support players.
Apologies for the long post, just took a bit to address several points in the thread.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 15:13:00 -
[131] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:
I agree with you. I've seen far too many peeps who want to lock peeps into roles and it bothers the hell out of me.
It's more worrisome and soul-destroying than the tiericide faction, imo.
Agreed .
As much as I can campain about this.. there is to many powers fighing to shoe horn people.. People like Ripple that want to force people to play the game only the way they see it and limit players options.. and the internal CCP staff and external CCP consultants that want to see this game burn to the ground.. after I hit my 514 days of consecutive logins I think I'm gonna call it quits. I held a candle of support on this game for far to long now and the great vision of Dust has been lost.
It was a good run but it all comes down to this,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5989
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Posted - 2015.01.02 15:46:00 -
[132] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:People like Ripple that want to force people to play the game only the way they see it and limit players options. I'm not against players having options, but I am against options that negate a role entirely. No role should have it's bonuses used, then be able to be tossed aside. Imagine if you could fit a sentinel dropsuit, receive the resistance and splash damage reduction bonuses, plus fit heavy weapons to your dropsuits, then switch to a scout.
The sentinel wouldn't be very useful, would it?
Players would use it as a means to receive perks then switch to other dropsuits. That is what was happening to logi dropsuits. It was bullshit, and you know it.
NextDark Knight wrote:and the internal CCP staff and external CCP consultants that want to see this game burn to the ground. Yes, a business wants to see a source of profit "burn to the burn"... /s 
Also, "Ripple"? I love it. It's my new nickname. Check the sig.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
My advice to you, playa...
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
768
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 16:05:00 -
[133] - Quote
Some trends I have been tracking for myself since the arrival of bandwidth include:
1. Far more WP per match.
2. A significant spike in my KDR. I lead squads and therefore control the warbarge strikes, so the marked increase in my WP production has given me more strike opportunities which has increased my kill numbers.
3. My win/loss ratio is climbing.
Some examples:
Match results 1
Match results 2
Now these performances aren't typical, but they happen relatively often. In general, I am consistently producing in excess of 2,500 WP and my match KDR is almost always over 2.0.
I am a dedicated support logi that predominantly specializes in uplink logistics, providing scans, and all purpose armor repping. My gun game is average at best and I am not a heavy hugger. I personally see nothing wrong with that style of play, but it's just not my thing.
Every logi in this game is capable of adapting to this system and being more successful now than they were before. You just have to understand how it works and take advantage of the fact that your squad and team is looking to you to be in charge of deployable gear. If you're a logi and your team is short on uplinks and ammo, then it is your fault for not providing that support. Do your job better. |
Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
161
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Posted - 2015.01.02 16:32:00 -
[134] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:You just have to understand how it works and take advantage of the fact that your squad and team is looking to you to be in charge of deployable gear. If you're a logi and your team is short on uplinks and ammo, then it is your fault for not providing that support. Do your job better.
I agree with you. I sure could do my job better, though, if # carried (not deployable) were increased for hives and links so that we Logis could better take on this shift/re-alignment of responsibility. Cheap flux strikes exacerbate the challenge, and there's not always a supply depot around. Suiciding to bring back more gear, while noble, is a bit much to ask except under extreme circumstances. From one dedicated Logi to another, I plead with you as CPM to push hard for this. IMO, it should have gone in simultaneous with Bandwidth.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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NextDark Knight
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 18:11:00 -
[135] - Quote
Ask any HS or CI guys that you can find that quit around 1.3.. They shouldn't be under NDA anymore now that legion is announced. Then look up what a poisen pill is and try to figure out what devs threw a fit about Dust being console only and worked there magic to work the game into the ground. We could and should have had lots more in Dust.. luckey that mess is behind us and it's back in development (I hope).
Anyways.. getting off topic here. Back to looking at my numbers.. lack up uplinks I think are causing the games to be so one sided and as the original poster pointed out "boring"..
Bandwidth should be reworked to Nanohives only.. Remotes and proxies need a buff.. Sentinals are in a choak hold and what else.. stop balancing this to be a lobby shooter!!
Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
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Z3dog
BIG BAD W0LVES
99
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Posted - 2015.01.06 07:19:00 -
[136] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:NextDark Knight wrote:People like Ripple that want to force people to play the game only the way they see it and limit players options. I'm not against players having options, but I am against options that negate a role entirely. No role should have it's bonuses used, then be able to be tossed aside. Imagine if you could fit a sentinel dropsuit, receive the resistance and splash damage reduction bonuses, plus fit heavy weapons to your dropsuits, then switch to a scout. The sentinel wouldn't be very useful, would it? Players would use it as a means to receive perks then switch to other dropsuits. That is what was happening to logi dropsuits. It was bullshit, and you know it. NextDark Knight wrote:and the internal CCP staff and external CCP consultants that want to see this game burn to the ground. Yes, a business wants to see a source of profit "burn to the burn"... /s Also, "Ripple"? I love it. It's my new nickname. Check the sig.
source of profit
bandwidth lol
And totally not p2w haha
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SgtMajSquish MLBJ
Consolidated Dust
260
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Posted - 2015.01.06 08:39:00 -
[137] - Quote
Humans competent????? Have you seen what CCP has done to this game????
Rise and shine CCP. It's time to implement ping based match making.
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