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CQC QQ neuters RR at Long Range

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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4975	Posted - 2014.11.20 13:44:00 - [1] - Quote I am Pissed! Truly Pissed, and that does not happen that often. CQC QQ has caused Rattati to neuter the long range capability of the Rail Rifle. I spawned into an Ambush OMS match were each team spawned with cover separated by 60m of open field. I had initially spawned with a Militia HMG but at that range I could not do enough damage to even log an Assist, so after making a Hail Mary attempt to cross the open ground on their flank, and dying, I spawned in again in my Min Logi fit which has a Rail Rifle. A fire fight at 60m to 70m range, this situation was made for the Rail Rifle! So I find some cover and then line up a shot, and here is what happened: Line up Shot, Pull trigger, waitGÇª waitGÇª waitGÇª target ducks behind coverGÇª Rail Rifle fires. At one point this happened 5 times in a row! I would pull up the sight, get the dot on the target, pull the trigger, and by the time the gun fired my target had already ducked back behind cover. Only about 25% of the time was the target still visible when my Rail Rifle finally went off. In the time it took my Rail Rifle to charge, the other guys were firing off a bust from their CR or ScR and then ducking for cover again, as you do in this type of long range fire fight. The only kills I got with the RR were a Sentinel who ran out into an open field chasing a kill, and a Scout who was distracted placing Remote Explosives on a Tank. So, how did the Rail Rifle get ****** over like this? Well let me recap. In a minor Hot Fix before 1.9 Rattati applied a fully appropriate nerf to the Rail RifleGÇÖs short range capabilities by increasing hip fire Kick. Although I normally avoid CQC fights when using a Rail Rifle, I deliberately went looking for them to test this change to the Rail Rifle. I found it was not that bad at all. The kick would not even start until you had fired 15 rounds, and then when it did start to kick you could compensate fairly well for another 10 to 15 rounds. If you took your finger off the trigger for a moment and then waited out the very short charge time you could fire off the rest of the clip without too much trouble. The nerf was so minor that I continued to use the Rail Rifle on my Min Logi despite not having a sidearm to switch to in Close Quarter Combat (CQC). However certain people QQGÇÖed about the kick, basing their analysis of the kick on what it does if you hold the trigger through the full 40 round clip. I donGÇÖt even fire continuously for that long when using an HMG, unless I am trying to kill a LAV with it. I also donGÇÖt hip fire with the RR unless my target is within 10m of me. Mostly at near-mid range I just line up the shot from the hip and switch to ADS just as I am about to fire. It the proper way to use most Rifles in mid range. If they are closer than 10m, then they are mighty big targets even if my weapon is kicking a bit. But the QQ was strong from people who wanted to use the best Long Range Rifle in close quarters, and Rattati gave in. When the Hotfix changes were accidentally reverted with the release of 1.9, Rattati tweaked the nerf to RR before applying the Hotfix again. He toned down the Kick and increased the Charge time, which appears from my experience this morning to have completely neutered the Rail Rifle at long range. Now the Rail Rifle, which is supposed to be the best Long Range Rifle, is ineffectual in long range fire fights! There is nothing more frustrating than pulling the trigger when you have someone in your sights, and seeing your target wonder out of sight before your weapon finally goes off. There is not even a charge up sound effect to give you some indication of how much longer you will have to wait. I so hate it when QQ from people who are trying to use a weapon or suit in an unintended manner gets that weapon or suit nerfed to ineffectiveness in its core function! The shear idiocy of some of the people on this forum can be stunning at times. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
abdullah muzaffar G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 64	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:14:00 - [2] - Quote damn it, why cant ccp just give it a damage hill...
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4975	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:16:00 - [3] - Quote What I said about the RR kick after the original change and before it was undone by 1.9. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 357	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:33:00 - [4] - Quote You should have tried it a few days ago it had kick in ads also, up down and side to side, I liked it then and even though the kick was reduced still like it now. The rifle is still more versatile than the LR and hits like a truck, It takes a bit of practice m8 spend a little more time with it before you judge well on an assault because a side arm is helpful if a scout is about. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
The Master Race Immortal Guides 359	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:33:00 - [5] - Quote You should have tried it a few days ago it had kick in ads also, up down and side to side, I liked it then and even though the kick was reduced still like it now. The rifle is still more versatile than the LR and hits like a truck, It takes a bit of practice m8 spend a little more time with it before you judge well on an assault because a side arm is helpful if a scout is about. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
Ku Shala The Generals 1020	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:01:00 - [6] - Quote latency on the server has been crap the rail is meh but if your not pumping the charge which is extremely annoying to listen to (sounds like the repair from StarWarsBF2) it takes forever to shoot 4 seconds is more than average ttk *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 195	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:00:00 - [7] - Quote I don't use the rail rifle, but this does makes me sad to hear.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6027	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:11:00 - [8] - Quote Yeah, this is what happens when people abuse mechanics of a weapon(or something else), then cry about it when the necessary changes are made. It hurts the people using it as intended. Drives me crazy. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Myron Kundera The Generals 109	Posted - 2014.11.20 19:40:00 - [9] - Quote Is this accurate? RR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when in ADS, and high-kick and low charge up time when hipfiring. ARR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when hipfiring, and high-kick and low charge up time when in ADS. Would like opinions please... "Greed, the forgotten mental disease" "Spray and pray makes my day" "Will use proto gear in self defense"
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1122	Posted - 2014.11.20 19:54:00 - [10] - Quote I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4991	Posted - 2014.11.20 19:54:00 - [11] - Quote Myron Kundera wrote: Is this accurate? RR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when in ADS, and high-kick and low charge up time when hipfiring. ARR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when hipfiring, and high-kick and low charge up time when in ADS. Would like opinions please... I don't think it really makes sense to have a different charge time for hip fire and ADS. It is not like the internal workings of the gun are effected by how you hold it. The difference in kick and dispersion is do to you stabilizing the guy with your shoulder when you ADS. Rail Rifle currently has a charge time of 0.6 seconds, which is ridiculous. It should be no more than 0.3 seconds. The Rail Rifle should have better zoom in ADS than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more kick and more dispersion in hip fire mode than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more range than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should do less DPS than the Assault Rail Rifle. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4835	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:22:00 - [12] - Quote The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. Founder & CEO: Fatal Absolution No matter what Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Charli Chaplin jr F0RSAKEN EMPIRE. 19	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:28:00 - [13] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. most of those guys doesn't know how to counter it, they just can't accept the fact that everything has a counter. ACCEPT YOUR FATE LIKE I ACCEPTED MINE.
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1127	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:28:00 - [14] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. Dont care dec 31st planetside 2 We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4994	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:40:00 - [15] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. Well, Rattati doesn't cave to unfounded QQ often, so I would be willing to forgive him this time if he fixes it in a timely manner. The only discussion with the community I have seen was in my thread about RR kick. Most of the QQ was in this thread but Rattati did not post in it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Jathniel G I A N T 1279	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:42:00 - [16] - Quote I've been using the RR a lot recently. And that delay really is problematic. I don't like firing my weapon when I dont think my shot will connect, and or I don't think I will immediately make the kill. So I tend to fire my RR in bursts, or a small series of volleys, at the head. I find myself pre-firing around corners to compensate for the delay; and this is making me do exactly what I hate, shooting and missing. When I pause firing to reacquire my target, the delay is debilitating, and the target has escaped. The RR is losing even in engagements where it should be winning. I'm in a Gal suit at range, shooting at a guy with with a scrambler who is in an Armor tanked Amarr suit, and he can put so many rounds into me before my RR spins up to cause damage, that even though I should have won on merits of sheer damage profile... I lose anyway because the gun is too slow. This is AT RANGE, where the RR is supposed to dominate. We have NO decent anti-armor DMR-style, semi-auto weapons in this game currently. The ScR and the TAR are premiere semi-auto weapons, that are currently beating the RR at its own game. There is nothing like the TAR or SCR, that is anti-armor. We need to bring the hipfire kick back, and reduce the delay. Scrubs need to stop running RRs at close range. And we need a proper DMR-style RR. A true Tactical Rail Rifle. Or a Charge Rail Rifle. Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1670	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:51:00 - [17] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: What I said about the RR kick after the original change and before it was undone by 1.9. RR Kick QQ thread. Yes, please sweep away legitimate complaints about a weapon being unable to perform by labeling them as "QQ" Fox, that's a mature and adult thing to do instead of addressing complaints simply belittle the people who might make them. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1670	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:54:00 - [18] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4836	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:12:00 - [19] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. Founder & CEO: Fatal Absolution No matter what Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Commander Noctus Gallente Loyalist 135	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:12:00 - [20] - Quote Agreed. The charge up time is a bit too long and it doesn't JUST encroach on CQC, but the entire effectiveness of the gun. Like many have said, I don't think there was any one moment where a long discussion about charge time was made. I'd rather they lower the charge time, up the kick a bit, and, most importantly, FIX THE MISFIRE GLITCH. Gallente User since Jan. 28th, 2013. Touched on every Gallente role since.

Myron Kundera The Generals 111	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:40:00 - [21] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Myron Kundera wrote: Is this accurate? RR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when in ADS, and high-kick and low charge up time when hipfiring. ARR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when hipfiring, and high-kick and low charge up time when in ADS. Would like opinions please... I don't think it really makes sense to have a different charge time for hip fire and ADS. It is not like the internal workings of the gun are effected by how you hold it. The difference in kick and dispersion is do to you stabilizing the guy with your shoulder when you ADS. Rail Rifle currently has a charge time of 0.6 seconds, which is ridiculous. It should be no more than 0.3 seconds. The Rail Rifle should have better zoom in ADS than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more kick and more dispersion in hip fire mode than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more range than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should do less DPS than the Assault Rail Rifle. Agreed! +1 "Greed, the forgotten mental disease" "Spray and pray makes my day" "Will use proto gear in self defense"
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1301	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:32:00 - [22] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. I am a RR hater, but no, the changes were excessive and the RR is pretty much broken. Because, that's why.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 686	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:36:00 - [23] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11868	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:30:00 - [24] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Maitue Mae Involuntary Manslaughter 115	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:37:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2425277#post2425277 I believe this is where people would think you meant that. Ishukone gave me my papers to transfer into the State Hail To The Caldari State
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 136	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:36:00 - [26] - Quote Just chiming in: First, some background: I primarily run Amarr Logi. I used to absolutely love the regular RR. It was simply awesome in my view; I wanted to love the ARR more, but I just couldn't find my groove with it. The RR recoil nerf did change that for me- I decided that I did not feel comfortable with the RR's hipfire recoil, and retooled several fits to swap in an ARR. I forced myself to become comfortable with the ARR- the magazine capacity buff helped a lot with that, TBH. IMO, this is perfectly acceptable. I no longer felt that I could adequately defend myself in close quarter engagement without immediately resorting to a sidearm, so I switched to a weapon that I felt would be usable across a wider variety of situations, even if it wasn't quite as effective in some firefights as my previous weapon choice. That's not to say I stopped using the regular RR; rather, it became a much more specialized weapon for long-range shootouts. The charge time nerf changed that quite heavily. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the delay is so long that you think "hey, my gun should be filling that guy with a buttload of bullets by now", but that's not what's happening. It's not like the Bolt Pistol charge time nerf, where you could definitely see and feel the difference between the previous 0.25 sec charge, and the current 0.40 sec charge, but it was still very usable in the conditions it was intended to be deployed in. Doubling the charge time from 0.3 to 0.6 seconds was, quite frankly, overboard. A charge time nerf to, say, 0.4 seconds would have been acceptable- it's not quite long enough that you start wondering "why am I not shooting", but it's still long enough to make a big difference. Instead, we have a long range weapon that is sadly languishing because it is no longer functional in a long range role. The ARR is still quite good, and it's become my go-to weapon for my logi fits, but I'd really like to also have the regular RR for use if I need a bit more range- Scrambler rifles suck down an absolute ton of PG, and I am not overly fond of the TacAR. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 419	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:38:00 - [27] - Quote Solution is simple. Revert RR charge up time. Minimum range (like the laser rifle.)
VikingKong iBUN T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 230	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:57:00 - [28] - Quote Every time CCP ever nerf anything they overdo it with 2-3 different nerf's at once. They have been told OVER AND OVER BY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE to make smaller changes, and see the results before committing to further nerfing, in order to avoid completely nerfing a weapon or vehicle to **** so that it is literally unusable. I seriously do not understand why they can't listen to that simple and extremely logical advice. I've seen so so many people try to tell them.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 505	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:19:00 - [29] - Quote VikingKong iBUN wrote: Every time CCP ever nerf anything they overdo it with 2-3 different nerf's at once. Not always. Consider the Scout.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1672	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:19:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense No offense rattati, but you've still failed to assuage the concerns of people who like this weapon for whatever reason. I myself asked you for metrics as to where kills were happening with the rail rifle and where deaths were happening with those who used them and to what weapon, because I honestly believe that it's not a case of the weapon overperforming at short range, it's a case of it overperforming at long range. As it stands right now, any caldari 'loyalist' has a weapon that feels awful to use. Many of us don't feel like we're capable of playing the objective and our sidearms aren't exactly well suited to close quarters either. It's incredibly frustrating to feel like weapons are getting nerfed because they're too popular, and that certain races 'shouldn't be allowed' to do things. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

Miokai Zahou WarRavens Capital Punishment. 414	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:55:00 - [31] - Quote It's true that it is very frustrating when using the rail rifle it has such a long delay with regards to firing at a target that half the time I'm already taking damage before my first shot goes off. I believe a readjustment in the charge time is in order and to balance it out a decrease in dps should be applied instead. OR Keep the rail rifle profile as is and introduce a more suitable bonus to the caldari assault suit that decreases charge time per level... give us loyalists a proper racial bonus for our rifle damnit. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 691	Posted - 2014.11.21 03:50:00 - [32] - Quote Maitue Mae wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2425277#post2425277 I believe this is where people would think you meant that. thank you, because im not misquoting ****. and that data shows what ive said before. the RR has performed CONSISTENTLY since its introduction. but now you want to say it's too effective? well yea... you nerfed all the other rifles to start lol. the main thing about the RR that makes it so good is that it has the most range and the maps are poorly designed with far too few areas of broken line of sight. imagine having to duel someone in a salt flat. you get a shotgun, the other guy gets a sniper rifle. with no cover at all, it doesnt matter how much DPS or alpha you have. you simply cant hit him, and that makes the difference when the maps are so big with so little cover. the other issue is that theres little you can do against players camping on rooftops. they can see you and out range you. you cant even flank them in a scout suit because theres usually no ladder. actaully, the best way to describe the RR is to say that its the same problem as when large railguns could shoot from the redline and snipe everything. you cant hit what you cant reach. on top of it all rail weapons are weird in dust... Taken from Eve Online Evelopedia: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Weapons_guide "Hybrids come in two types: Blasters: Shorter range, faster tracking, higher damage per shot, higher rate of fire. Railguns: Longer range, slower tracking, lower damage per shot, lower rate of fire." there ware ways to make the RR good without the need to give it such high damage per shot. -increase optimal range, so that RR's always deal full damage for most of their range. -decrease recoil for RR's in both hipfire and ADS. there basically shouldnt be any recoil at all. it would make the weapon more precise at all ranges and allow us to compensate the lower damage with getting more headshots -decrease damage per shot THAT would be a weapon that works at long range and outclassed in cqc, but still FEELS functional at all ranges
D3LTA Blitzkrieg II 0uter.Heaven 130	Posted - 2014.11.21 03:56:00 - [33] - Quote viziam ScR > RR Charge shot OP compared to noob .6 charge up time. RR is unresponsive and just not fun anymore :/ Wasted prof 5 & rapid reload 5 on bad Caldari manufacturing xD -side note- Why CCP so extreme with changes??? When does double anything make sense? .3 to .6 Swing that pendulum from OP to UP! Go in circles round and round. UP to OP! -Viziam laser- -Tac AR- -flaylol- -tank- -scout- -ADS- -scout x2-
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2244	Posted - 2014.11.21 05:34:00 - [34] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. Says whom? Perhaps you know something I don't, but I've not seen any data on this, and FWIW I asked about looking closer at range information in order to more closely identify which piece of RR perfomance to nerf/buff -- and I don't think Rattati responded. If you have information, I'm all ears, but my sense was that the RR was already woefully inadequate in CQC and only really excelled at range, so if you're going to nerf something to make it's K/S worse and drive down usage, perhaps it does, in fact lie in its long range performance -- even if that is at odds in terms of its primary use and requires a long range nerf similar to the delay increase. But without data, we'll never really know.....thus my interest when you alluded to this being evaluated. Zatara Rought wrote: The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. I agree. I swapped to the BrAR/SMG and am about to go back to the ARR/ScP for many of them.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2244	Posted - 2014.11.21 05:43:00 - [35] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. What he said is it was BOTH overpopular/overused and overpowered (in terms of K/S). I made the same mistake you did when I read this post. You have to pay close attention to the colors in the K/S graph -- the RR was leading in K/S and far and away leading in usage. If I may be so bold, it appears to me that Rattati was concerned with both.
Espla El espia Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.11.21 07:26:00 - [36] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I don't think it really makes sense to have a different charge time for hip fire and ADS. It is not like the internal workings of the gun are effected by how you hold it. The difference in kick and dispersion is do to you stabilizing the guy with your shoulder when you ADS. Rail Rifle currently has a charge time of 0.6 seconds, which is ridiculous. It should be no more than 0.3 seconds. The Rail Rifle should have better zoom in ADS than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more kick and more dispersion in hip fire mode than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more range than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should do less DPS than the Assault Rail Rifle. [This is Kibitt] I think the RR should have a charge up time longer than 0.3s, but 0.6 is a tad exessive. I'm just saying that I manage to have fairly good KDA when I swap to my frontline Caldari suit, even at 60m ranges and I NEVER use that weapon. 50-60m range is not 'long' - my Scrambler Pistols can reach around 40-50m, and submachine guns hit around 30m (I'm pretty sure). Rail Rifle is almost literally uncontested in its native 80-100m range save for Scrambler/Laser Rifles, and if you're a pro at them- Mass Drivers. A charge up of 0.45s would be manageable. I wouldn't want to drop below 0.4 Anyways, let's look at the laser rifle: Lacks windup, but has a similar drawback that is arguably even more severe as ammo is wasted, if you're not shooting at a wall you'll also broadcast location AND telegraph that you want to kill something right now. RR lacks most of those drawbacks. The real threat to the RR is the ScR - it has HUGE burst DPS, and the heat 'drawback' is managed similarly to the kick on the RR. In general, the RR gets more range and killing potential due to bonus damage to armor. ScR is good for whittling enemies down or deleting low-hp/shield targets. The Assault ScR is a much shorter ranged weapon and doesn't really do the same thing the ARR does, mostly because dispersion is small but constant with the AScR, where you can get a quick kill in first few ARR shots. You'll find yourself using the AScR more like a semi-automatic than full auto at farther ranges. In terms of gameplay mechanics and how they effect player experience, I'd say the spool time is sad for the reasons you've stated- it's a point in time where you are powerless, an observer unable to act. So I'm not all for huge spool times, but 0.4-0.5s is a reasonable tradeoff for the power of the weapon and promotes some forethought in gameplay. Also, 1/2 of a second is barely enough time for someone to take a single pace forwards or backwards, so it sounds like you are frustrated with people who cower and shiver behind insurmountable fortresses more than you are with the spool time.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8557	Posted - 2014.11.21 07:49:00 - [37] - Quote lol this thread. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 373	Posted - 2014.11.21 08:12:00 - [38] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXRM3lFRwRI It is obviously balanced the RR now has an effective counter that requires you guys have situational awareness, requires prefire at times, so get good, and you better bring a hive. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5216	Posted - 2014.11.21 08:39:00 - [39] - Quote Rattati said the weapon was being nerfed because the average kills per spawn was inordinately higher than any other weapon. That's not saying it's too popular. It's saying that the KDR of the rail rifle itself is unnaturally high. Rather akin to hearing vehicle drivers say that going 40/0 in a match consistently is completely balanced. The number of kills made with the rail rifle was disproportionately higher than the number of deaths while carrying the rifle. This is an indication that something is out of whack, not that it is "too popular." It was too popular because it was statistically too effective. Much as I love banging on dev and cpm heads if you take a statement out of context with everything else thatperson has said you have failed reading comprehension or you are deliberately attacking their character/intelligence/integrity. This is pretty much textbook personal attack. I suggest growing up and putting on the adult pants before posting. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
iKILLu osborne Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 481	Posted - 2014.11.21 09:12:00 - [40] - Quote i've found that my smg has became my cqc go to, and the rr is my sidearm something about the above doesn't sound right does it? lp cal scout i demand it z platoon, cfw channel

iKILLu osborne Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 481	Posted - 2014.11.21 09:20:00 - [41] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. Dont care dec 31st planetside 2 no!!!! you can't leave again jac it broke my heart last time, the state needs you :( lp cal scout i demand it z platoon, cfw channel
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2038	Posted - 2014.11.21 09:21:00 - [42] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I am Pissed! Truly Pissed, and that does not happen that often. CQC QQ has caused Rattati to neuter the long range capability of the Rail Rifle. I spawned into an Ambush OMS match were each team spawned with cover separated by 60m of open field. I had initially spawned with a Militia HMG but at that range I could not do enough damage to even log an Assist, so after making a Hail Mary attempt to cross the open ground on their flank, and dying, I spawned in again in my Min Logi fit which has a Rail Rifle. A fire fight at 60m to 70m range, this situation was made for the Rail Rifle! So I find some cover and then line up a shot, and here is what happened: Line up Shot, Pull trigger, waitGÇª waitGÇª waitGÇª target ducks behind coverGÇª Rail Rifle fires. At one point this happened 5 times in a row! I would pull up the sight, get the dot on the target, pull the trigger, and by the time the gun fired my target had already ducked back behind cover. Only about 25% of the time was the target still visible when my Rail Rifle finally went off. In the time it took my Rail Rifle to charge, the other guys were firing off a bust from their CR or ScR and then ducking for cover again, as you do in this type of long range fire fight. The only kills I got with the RR were a Sentinel who ran out into an open field chasing a kill, and a Scout who was distracted placing Remote Explosives on a Tank. So, how did the Rail Rifle get ****** over like this? Well let me recap. In a minor Hot Fix before 1.9 Rattati applied a fully appropriate nerf to the Rail RifleGÇÖs short range capabilities by increasing hip fire Kick. Although I normally avoid CQC fights when using a Rail Rifle, I deliberately went looking for them to test this change to the Rail Rifle. I found it was not that bad at all. The kick would not even start until you had fired 15 rounds, and then when it did start to kick you could compensate fairly well for another 10 to 15 rounds. If you took your finger off the trigger for a moment and then waited out the very short charge time you could fire off the rest of the clip without too much trouble. The nerf was so minor that I continued to use the Rail Rifle on my Min Logi despite not having a sidearm to switch to in Close Quarter Combat (CQC). However certain people QQGÇÖed about the kick, basing their analysis of the kick on what it does if you hold the trigger through the full 40 round clip. I donGÇÖt even fire continuously for that long when using an HMG, unless I am trying to kill a LAV with it. I also donGÇÖt hip fire with the RR unless my target is within 10m of me. Mostly at near-mid range I just line up the shot from the hip and switch to ADS just as I am about to fire. It the proper way to use most Rifles in mid range. If they are closer than 10m, then they are mighty big targets even if my weapon is kicking a bit. But the QQ was strong from people who wanted to use the best Long Range Rifle in close quarters, and Rattati gave in. When the Hotfix changes were accidentally reverted with the release of 1.9, Rattati tweaked the nerf to RR before applying the Hotfix again. He toned down the Kick and increased the Charge time, which appears from my experience this morning to have completely neutered the Rail Rifle at long range. Now the Rail Rifle, which is supposed to be the best Long Range Rifle, is ineffectual in long range fire fights! There is nothing more frustrating than pulling the trigger when you have someone in your sights, and seeing your target wonder out of sight before your weapon finally goes off. There is not even a charge up sound effect to give you some indication of how much longer you will have to wait. I so hate it when QQ from people who are trying to use a weapon or suit in an unintended manner gets that weapon or suit nerfed to ineffectiveness in its core function! The shear idiocy of some of the people on this forum can be stunning at times. RR is still decent at long range. but has been overtaken by LR and SCR again [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2038	Posted - 2014.11.21 09:23:00 - [43] - Quote Maitue Mae wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2425277#post2425277 I believe this is where people would think you meant that. the eve playe rin me nerdgasmed at the sight of all those graphs and data [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3268	Posted - 2014.11.21 09:58:00 - [44] - Quote Funny thing is that now is more effective in CQC. Kick like a mule version lasted a couple of days and was almost perfect, very good at long distance, usable at short but only as a finisher (5-6 shots). But people like to QQ, i don't know why Rattati has listened them. Situational awareness commonly called passive scan.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1259	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:26:00 - [45] - Quote support. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1674	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:28:00 - [46] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Funny thing is that now is more effective in CQC. Kick like a mule version lasted a couple of days and was almost perfect, very good at long distance, usable at short but only as a finisher (5-6 shots). But people like to QQ, i don't know why Rattati has listened them. No, No it wasn't and No it isn't. A little bit of kick is good for cqc, BOUNCES ALL OVER THE **ING PLACE like it's being handled by someone with parkinsons who's experiencing an epileptic seizure is not. Even in CQC you want your shots to be on target, not 'whoops looks like all my bullets passed 45 degrees from you!". The gun feels like it's being handled by rookies from x-com ufo defense. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 691	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:44:00 - [47] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. What he said is it was BOTH overpopular AND overpowered (in terms of K/S). I made the same mistake you did when I read this post. You have to pay close attention to the colors in the K/S graph -- the RR was leading in K/S and far and away leading in usage. If I may be so bold, it appears to me that Rattati was concerned with both. What's more, I think you are out of line to suggest otherwise, much less thumb your nose in his face when called on it. so we balance weapon based on popularity now? well what if the reason for the RR's popularity was because everyone simply liked the sound of it? do you nerf the sound effects? what if color made if popular? do we change the color? thats stupid. his theory is incorrect and he lacks the particular data that would prove that. the data he needs to show is the locations of deaths and kills. you cant tell me the RR is OP if the guy using it was sitting on a water tower overlooking the enemy spawn. i say those kills are situational and take advantage of map design flaws. if everyone on both teams spawned within 20m of each other every time, would the RR be so popular? what about if we put everyone in a flat surface with zero objects for use as cover and spawn everyone 200m away from each other? what weapon be popular then? a weapon is a tool. and you use the right tool for job if you want to get the best results. currently the maps simply are designed in such a way that you can always take advantage of positioning. the lack of ladders leads to players camping in areas that are not accessible from the ground and offer great line of sight. the RR relays on good line of sight. ive said that the maps need to break up line of sight more so you cant always see and cover +100m of open terrain. THATS the issue with e RR. not damage, not charge up time, but range and the total and complete lack of defense from it when caught out in the open. being out in the open is required because the other rifles require you to be closer. most maps require players to cross +100m of open terrain between outpost. thats a problem when youre rifle only has a max effective range of 70m. BUT perhaps there is an error in my definition of OP? is there a consensus on the definition of an OP weapon? K/S is biased because the RR functions according to its design. notice how theres no data on sniper rifles shown? what do you think the K/S is for sniper rifles and why? we need to see ALL data regarding the weapons. we need to know at what ranges do each weapon earn the most kills on average, and we need to know where those kills are being made. i bet we'd see alot of GUY X sitting 85m off the enemy teams flank running damps while racking up kills because his victims were all sitting out in the open and didnt know he was there.
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3268	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:53:00 - [48] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: shaman oga wrote: Funny thing is that now is more effective in CQC. Kick like a mule version lasted a couple of days and was almost perfect, very good at long distance, usable at short but only as a finisher (5-6 shots). But people like to QQ, i don't know why Rattati has listened them. No, No it wasn't and No it isn't. A little bit of kick is good for cqc, BOUNCES ALL OVER THE ****ING PLACE like it's being handled by someone with parkinsons who's experiencing an epileptic seizure is not. Even in CQC you want your shots to be on target, not 'whoops looks like all my bullets passed 45 degrees from you!". The gun feels like it's being handled by rookies from x-com ufo defense. I've had no problems with it when kick was raised, i was shooting from a decent distance while ADS. Damn it's like if heavies start complain about HMG being bad at long range, it's normal, it's a HMG, so does the RR, it should be very good at long range, not good at cqc. You want cqc with a caldari rifle? Choose ARR. It's simple. Situational awareness commonly called passive scan.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 691	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:56:00 - [49] - Quote Espla El espia wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I don't think it really makes sense to have a different charge time for hip fire and ADS. It is not like the internal workings of the gun are effected by how you hold it. The difference in kick and dispersion is do to you stabilizing the guy with your shoulder when you ADS. Rail Rifle currently has a charge time of 0.6 seconds, which is ridiculous. It should be no more than 0.3 seconds. The Rail Rifle should have better zoom in ADS than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more kick and more dispersion in hip fire mode than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more range than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should do less DPS than the Assault Rail Rifle. [This is Kibitt] I think the RR should have a charge up time longer than 0.3s, but 0.6 is a tad exessive. I'm just saying that I manage to have fairly good KDA when I swap to my frontline Caldari suit, even at 60m ranges and I NEVER use that weapon. 50-60m range is not 'long' - my Scrambler Pistols can reach around 40-50m, and submachine guns hit around 30m (I'm pretty sure). Rail Rifle is almost literally uncontested in its native 80-100m range save for Scrambler/Laser Rifles, and if you're a pro at them- Mass Drivers. A charge up of 0.45s would be manageable. I wouldn't want to drop below 0.4 Anyways, let's look at the laser rifle: Lacks windup, but has a similar drawback that is arguably even more severe as ammo is wasted, if you're not shooting at a wall you'll also broadcast location AND telegraph that you want to kill something right now. RR lacks most of those drawbacks. The real threat to the RR is the ScR - it has HUGE burst DPS, and the heat 'drawback' is managed similarly to the kick on the RR. In general, the RR gets more range and killing potential due to bonus damage to armor. ScR is good for whittling enemies down or deleting low-hp/shield targets. The Assault ScR is a much shorter ranged weapon and doesn't really do the same thing the ARR does, mostly because dispersion is small but constant with the AScR, where you can get a quick kill in first few ARR shots. You'll find yourself using the AScR more like a semi-automatic than full auto at farther ranges. In terms of gameplay mechanics and how they effect player experience, I'd say the spool time is sad for the reasons you've stated- it's a point in time where you are powerless, an observer unable to act. So I'm not all for huge spool times, but 0.4-0.5s is a reasonable tradeoff for the power of the weapon and promotes some forethought in gameplay. Also, 1/2 of a second is barely enough time for someone to take a single pace forwards or backwards, so it sounds like you are frustrated with people who cower and shiver behind insurmountable fortresses more than you are with the spool time. not to mention that the ScR can kill you before you can fire a round. RR on caldari... i see Scr and i HAVE to run or i die. ScR is what? +700 dps? plus 20% against shields. even if you bricked your shield on caldari assault, itd still kill you in one second unless you dual tank with plates. you cant run a racial fit against it. now look at the RR charge up time. in that first second, youll be doingwhat? 100 dps? aginst shields too most likely so youre looking at 90 damage vs +700 dps. this is at ALL ranges too lol. so yea... theres a huge balancing problem there.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5220	Posted - 2014.11.21 10:59:00 - [50] - Quote Deathwind what part of "this was not based solely off of or even mostly upon, popularity" are you failing to comprehend? The thing that was stated as concerning was the K/S rating, then the popularity is attributed to the K/S rating. Popularity indicates to a dev "I should look at why." If the weapon enjoys a 10 rail rifles for every assault rifle being run but they both average one kill per spawn then the weapons are in balance, people just like the rail rifle more. Now if there's the same 10/1 ratio but there are 5 kills per spawn for the AR getting one kill per spawn then it's fairly obvious that something is out of whack. Knock off the popularity contest bullsh*t. It's deceptive and disingenuous. You don't like the change, fine. If you want it improved then make suggestions that don't involve "I want the old imbalance back." EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 691	Posted - 2014.11.21 11:47:00 - [51] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Deathwind what part of "this was not based solely off of or even mostly upon, popularity" are you failing to comprehend? The thing that was stated as concerning was the K/S rating, then the popularity is attributed to the K/S rating. Popularity indicates to a dev "I should look at why." If the weapon enjoys a 10 rail rifles for every assault rifle being run but they both average one kill per spawn then the weapons are in balance, people just like the rail rifle more. Now if there's the same 10/1 ratio but there are 5 kills per spawn for the AR getting one kill per spawn then it's fairly obvious that something is out of whack. Knock off the popularity contest bullsh*t. It's deceptive and disingenuous. You don't like the change, fine. If you want it improved then make suggestions that don't involve "I want the old imbalance back." i dont want the old balance back. it was not where it should be. does it not make sense to you that if other weapons cant hit you, they cant kill you? what is the K/S for sniper rifles? 70% of my deaths with a RR come from me doing something i shouldnt have been doing. like hacking an objective or fighting indoors. outside where i can keep range, i dont die as much and i can kill multiple targets before they can even reach me. thats where the K/S is higher for me. the RR isnt even functional anymore at close range. at no point have any of us seen any data that says that the weapon performs too well in cqc. and what range is defined as cqc even? the only data we have seen are some graphs showing a bunch of kills being made with the RR than the other rifles. and ive already explained why it does better. -the current meta is biased towards armor tanking -not enough cover. line of sight is too great even in urban areas -too many places accessible only by dropship that provide good line of sight and/or cover too much terrain if you want to blame the weapon itself and not address the main issues then you can say that the RR has too much alpha and that damage per shot should be reduced. but then you have to balance the weapon around low dps and low damage per shot, which is easy if you consider all the mechanics involved. reducing kick and dispersion, increasing optimal range (but not effective range,) and reducing the charge time back to where it was would leave you with.... wait for it... "...a highly accurate, long range weapon..." BUT now the weapon is still functionally usable at all ranges. the difference is that makes it better at long range than short range is that at long range, the lower damage per shot and dps will accaully be higher than other weapons because youll be towards the end of the effective ranges will still in your optimal range. they do less damage but you still deal most if not full damage. at short range, you do way less damage than other rifles, but you still can actually hit stuff, unlike currently. honestly, this issue is no different than the time Rattati said the Caldari Commando was outperforming all the other commandos by far. we all knew it wasnt true, but his data said other wise. then he finally gets someone to confess their sins about using it for redline sniping. the data was inconclusive. case closed. now we have another case of data trying to paint a different story from whats really happening. and im telling you and Rattai and everyone else that there are way more factors involved in this besides "RR too good." the data is inconclusive, again. all Rattai did was make the RR incredibly weird to use by increasing the hipfire kick, and completely unbalancing the RR on a racial fit when faced with high burst dps weapons at both long and short ranges. ill say it again, the new .60 second charge time is nothing more than free damage the enemy gets to do to you. oh, and before i forget, does Rattati plan on BUFFING the damage of the RR and bolt pistol to maintain dps, since he lowered it by increasing charge time? cause thats what he did when he re balanced the bolt pistol except, he hasnt said anything about it this time. people point to the paper dps and say its fine when its actually alot lower
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5221	Posted - 2014.11.21 12:20:00 - [52] - Quote My problem is not that something is screwy. I don't like the new RR either. However my problem is with your assertions that it was a popular opinion nerf. Dismissing the supporting data, which was shown, shows a lack of interest in balance and more interest in raging that your toy takin away. If that is not your intent quit being a willful idiot by saying it was nerfed based on popularity. Because the assertion is bull. The reasons were shown and the logic was sound even if IMHO the balance pass went wrong. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5012	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:32:00 - [53] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: What I said about the RR kick after the original change and before it was undone by 1.9. RR Kick QQ thread. Yes, please sweep away legitimate complaints about a weapon being unable to perform by labeling them as "QQ" Fox, that's a mature and adult thing to do instead of addressing complaints simply belittle the people who might make them. I tested the RR after you complained about it and found your complaints to be bull ****. Therefore I label it as QQ. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5012	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:35:00 - [54] - Quote Jathniel wrote: I've been using the RR a lot recently. And that delay really is problematic. I don't like firing my weapon when I dont think my shot will connect, and or I don't think I will immediately make the kill. So I tend to fire my RR in bursts, or a small series of volleys, at the head. I find myself pre-firing around corners to compensate for the delay; and this is making me do exactly what I hate, shooting and missing. When I pause firing to reacquire my target, the delay is debilitating, and the target has escaped. The RR is losing even in engagements where it should be winning. I'm in a Gal suit at range, shooting at a guy with with a scrambler who is in an Armor tanked Amarr suit, and he can put so many rounds into me before my RR spins up to cause damage, that even though I should have won on merits of sheer damage profile... I lose anyway because the gun is too slow. This is AT RANGE, where the RR is supposed to dominate. We have NO decent anti-armor DMR-style, semi-auto weapons in this game currently. The ScR and the TAR are premiere semi-auto weapons, that are currently beating the RR at its own game. There is nothing like the TAR or SCR, that is anti-armor. We need to bring the hipfire kick back, and reduce the delay. Scrubs need to stop running RRs at close range. And we need a proper DMR-style RR. A true Tactical Rail Rifle. Or a Charge Rail Rifle. I operate the same way. If I am not going to hit something I donGÇÖt pull the trigger. The 0.6 second delay will teach people very bad habits as it encourages users to pull the trigger as soon as they see an enemy like a noob, even before they have had time to aim. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 691	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:49:00 - [55] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: My problem is not that something is screwy. I don't like the new RR either. However my problem is with your assertions that it was a popular opinion nerf. Dismissing the supporting data, which was shown, shows a lack of interest in balance and more interest in raging that your toy takin away. If that is not your intent quit being a willful idiot by saying it was nerfed based on popularity. Because the assertion is bull. The reasons were shown and the logic was sound even if IMHO the balance pass went wrong. i said the nerf was based on popularity because there is not enough conclusive evidence to support the claims that the RR is OP. i dismiss the supporting data shown because it's circumstantial and incomplete. so if the data used is flawed, then either: -nobody thought deep enough about the root cause -there's isnt a way to gather the missing data -data was omitted to bend community perception (i highly doubt this to be the case) CCP has, in the past, made changes base on data showing an over abundance in use of particular items. the Drake battle-cruiser was for years, a staple in eve online pvp. CCP deemed the ship too good at too many things, which was not in line with their design intentions. so CCP nerfed the drake overall power. what they did NOT do however was change the overall function, characteristics, and feel of the Drake. the changes to the RR dont change the weapon functionally, but they do change the characteristics and feel of the weapon. a .60 second charge time is too much of a weakness when used on a racial fit. The new charge time, along with the hip-fire kick increase change the overall feel of the weapon. You see it most when you need to burst fire with the RR, or try to use the RR to engage at long ranges. the RR natural kick, even in ADS, causes most players to use burst fire in order to maintain precision. having to wait .60 seconds in between bursts so you can maintain accuracy on a weapon being advertised as a precision weapon is an issue on practicality, and it affect the RR outside of the reason for nerfing it. it hinders the RR at long range just as much as it does at short ranges. the kick on the RR vs the ARR basically says to players. to use ADS fire on the RR, but the ARR can use hip-fire as well as ADS fire and its not even the parent variant. in other words the variant is better than the original, which i thought was not supposed to be intended for any weapon. the kick on the RR is so distracting that the only time i run it now is on a commando along with the ARR so i can switch between both.
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1314	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:06:00 - [56] - Quote Ahh yes now the RR needs some skill to operate unlike the previous RRs Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5229	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:36:00 - [57] - Quote The evidence was there. No amount of evidence will convince someone who refuses to listen. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Espla El espia Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:11:00 - [58] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXRM3lFRwRI It is obviously balanced, the RR now has an effective counter that requires us to have situational awareness, and to prefire at times so get good and you better bring a hive. Much like our opposing faction the gallente where range is a constant concern the difference is that a RR user is still effective close range where a AR user has no options at long range so it looks to me that RR users still have an obvious advantage... So I would like to alter my earlier statement, the change was a effective way to balance the RR against other weapons, but the RR itself still is at an advantage so it is not balanced. If they wanted to balance it further they could add much more hipfire kick,restore kick to ads, or increase kick progression. I agree. The most common weapon by far used to be RR, and I'm happy to be seeing other weapons (namely ACR and ScR) being used, but in all honesty there are still tons of RR's in most matches I play- even the CQC matches.
Sgt Pseudo Gummibaerenbande 514 RUST415 65	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:16:00 - [59] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: [...] [...] [...] Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense Furthermore: I like the RR the way it is >Misquoting a dev is a bananable offense `CCP Rattati`
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2248	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:50:00 - [60] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The evidence was there. No amount of evidence will convince someone who refuses to listen. The evidence was there for it being overwhelmingly popular and marginally more effective. To my knowledge: There was no distance data evaluated. There was no game mode data evaluated. How can one tell which function of the RR to nerf if we're not looking at all the data? As a user of these weapons, Deathwind and Mina and Zatara and others make very good points and ask very valid questions that haven't been answered. Moving past that, do we know the effects of the recent nerf? Has it worked? Was it too much? Was it not enough? Is there updated rifle data to share? Does it compare at range and up close performance? Does it show different game modes? No additional evidence is needed if your mind is already made up. Do you even use the RR or ARR, goonbro?

Ku Shala The Generals 1022	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:39:00 - [61] - Quote sad the only response from ccp on this thread is about misquoting, the data used to show the railrifle was overused is partially bias, you forget to consider that most the maps have rooftops or are open and require weapons with range. increasing the kick so the weapon is almost unusable and nerfing the damage, the breach ar and assault scr outperform the rail in every combat situation, I am unskilled in cr so I cant speak for that I have LvL 5 + 5 prof in AR skills 5+5 RR and 5+3 Scr, I can range from 1m up to 75 m with the breach, from 1m up to 85+ with the AScr and die before I can get my rail off or enemy runs into cover. yes maybe the RR was a little too good cqc but the other rifles multirole to some degree. It should be viable to use your weapon at all ranges. can the weapon be reverted and have reduced damage at 20 m or somthing like that like theLR? also why does it kick so much arent rail weapons high damage high accuracy slow ROF , make it fire like a vehicle small rail *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:39:00 - [62] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXRM3lFRwRI It is obviously balanced, the RR now has an effective counter that requires us to have situational awareness, and to prefire at times so get good and you better bring a hive. Much like our opposing faction the gallente where range is a constant concern the difference is that a RR user is still effective close range where a AR user has no options at long range so it looks to me that RR users still have an obvious advantage... So I would like to alter my earlier statement, the change was a effective way to balance the RR against other weapons, but the RR itself still is at an advantage so it is not balanced. If they wanted to balance it further they could add much more hipfire kick,restore kick to ads, or increase kick progression. Blueprint, do we ever agree on anything? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:58:00 - [63] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. What he said is it was BOTH overpopular AND overpowered (in terms of K/S). I made the same mistake you did when I read this post. You have to pay close attention to the colors in the K/S graph -- the RR was leading in K/S and far and away leading in usage. If I may be so bold, it appears to me that Rattati was concerned with both. What's more, I think you are out of line to suggest otherwise, much less thumb your nose in his face when called on it. so we balance weapon based on popularity now? well what if the reason for the RR's popularity was because everyone simply liked the sound of it? do you nerf the sound effects? what if color made if popular? do we change the color? If everyone and their dog decided to use a rifle because it was a nice color and had a cool sound, then the average number of kills per spawn with that rifle would go down, because the average FPS skill level of everyone and their dog is much lower than the average skill level of the people who find the rifle matches their play style. If a rifle is hugely popular, and still has an average kills per spawn count that is considerably higher than other rifles, then there is something wrong. Popularity of a rifle should drive down the average kills per spawn, due to all the people with 0.5 or lower KDR who start using it. If a Rifle was hugely popular and the average kills per spawn for that Rifle was similar to the average kills per spawn of all Rifles put together, then that would not be a problem. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 204	Posted - 2014.11.21 18:02:00 - [64] - Quote Miokai Zahou wrote: [...] Keep the rail rifle profile as is and introduce a more suitable bonus to the caldari assault suit that decreases charge time per level... give us loyalists a proper racial bonus for our rifle damnit. Cool idea, sounds similar to the heat damage Amarr Assault bonus. I like this !
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:35:00 - [65] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Ahh yes now the RR needs some skill to operate unlike the previous RRs Compensating for kick takes skill. What the RR requires right now is precognition in order to know where your target will be in 0.6 seconds. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:37:00 - [66] - Quote Espla El espia wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXRM3lFRwRI It is obviously balanced, the RR now has an effective counter that requires us to have situational awareness, and to prefire at times so get good and you better bring a hive. Much like our opposing faction the gallente where range is a constant concern the difference is that a RR user is still effective close range where a AR user has no options at long range so it looks to me that RR users still have an obvious advantage... So I would like to alter my earlier statement, the change was a effective way to balance the RR against other weapons, but the RR itself still is at an advantage so it is not balanced. If they wanted to balance it further they could add much more hipfire kick,restore kick to ads, or increase kick progression. I agree. The most common weapon by far used to be RR, and I'm happy to be seeing other weapons (namely ACR and ScR) being used, but in all honesty there are still tons of RR's in most matches I play- even the CQC matches. That will change over the next couple of weeks. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1320	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:40:00 - [67] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Zindorak wrote: Ahh yes now the RR needs some skill to operate unlike the previous RRs Compensating for kick takes skill. What the RR requires right now is precognition in order to know where your target will be in 0.6 seconds. I think of the Charge time as cocking the gun before you shoot it. But all weapons should have flaws. Ar has range and damage excluding the BrAR. RR CHarge time and Kick, CR damage and bullets per clip and ScR heat buildup and only good on Amarr Assault Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:45:00 - [68] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: [...] Keep the rail rifle profile as is and introduce a more suitable bonus to the caldari assault suit that decreases charge time per level... give us loyalists a proper racial bonus for our rifle damnit. Cool idea, sounds similar to the heat damage Amarr Assault bonus. I like this ! Except that the Scrambler Rifle and Laser Rifle are still usable on other suits. If they increased charge time in order to give the Caldari Assault a charge time reduction bonus, then the Rail Rifle still needs its base charge time reduced to something between the 0.3 it had and the 0.6 it has now, because at 0.6 it is really gimped for anyone without a charge time reduction bonus. Also, if the Caldari Assault get a Charge Time reduction bonus, they are going to be deadly with the Charged Sniper Rifle, and Bolt Pistol. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:48:00 - [69] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Zindorak wrote: Ahh yes now the RR needs some skill to operate unlike the previous RRs Compensating for kick takes skill. What the RR requires right now is precognition in order to know where your target will be in 0.6 seconds. I think of the Charge time as cocking the gun before you shoot it. But all weapons should have flaws. Ar has range and damage excluding the BrAR. RR CHarge time and Kick, CR damage and bullets per clip and ScR heat buildup and only good on Amarr Assault Yes, but do you have any idea of how much a person can do in 0.6 in an FPS game? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Tebu Gan Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1245	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:04:00 - [70] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense Rather high and mighty there aren't you. Tanks - Balancing Turrets

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6052	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:06:00 - [71] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense Rather high and mighty there aren't you. Gets popcorn and waits for Rattati Smite Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 382	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:01:00 - [72] - Quote I shall leave a link to my petition for those who want less charge time. Just sign on the dotted line... Yes I love saying that. *"I shall fight for my people until I can't come back."*
Espla El espia Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.11.21 23:58:00 - [73] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: not to mention that the ScR can kill you before you can fire a round. RR on caldari... i see Scr and i HAVE to run or i die. ScR is what? +700 dps? plus 20% against shields. even if you bricked your shield on caldari assault, itd still kill you in one second unless you dual tank with plates. you cant run a racial fit against it. now look at the RR charge up time. in that first second, youll be doingwhat? 100 dps? aginst shields too most likely so youre looking at 90 damage vs +700 dps. this is at ALL ranges too lol. so yea... theres a huge balancing problem there. You're looking at guns in a vaccuum, and that is doomed to be a flawed perspective. You're not going to land every hit by mashing the trigger button on an ScR and it is likely to blast heat in your face if you decide to do that. That range statement is false- RR has best range, and there are times in my Amarr Commando where I can't hit the RR users because of that. As for the fact that ScR eats shields, the Amarrians could whine that my Minmatar Assault easily kills them with ACR while managing to be much more agile and thus able to escape when situations go bad. Just what DO you put in those Cal low slots? Kincats and cardiacs? If so, then you know why scramblers eat you up. My next statement has great relevance to Fox's "precognition" AND your "first second" calculations: That situation where you are 100% caught off-guard is a losing situation with almost any other weapon in the game, which means you aren't looking at the enemy shooting you. It takes time to turn and find that enemy, then aim with any gun and that will prevent other weapons from being strictly superior to the RR. Going along with this, scanning is extremely powerful at the moment (as are heavies) so I would expect RR popularity to decrease once that gets nerfed because (in the eyes of one who loves Minmatar Scout) everyone DOES have precognition. If DUST literally had 1 dimension and time vs 3 and time, then I would take what you said completely seriously. Also, while a lot can happen in one second, this game is awesome to me because it has strategy over a longer period than fractions of a second. That is more enjoyable to me than who hits the trigger first, in, say, Destiny. I swear, even if you suck at aiming in that game, everything gets headshots and that bothers me. Meh, I wanna edit my post over and over but I'm just gonna put it out and see how it goes over.
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1322	Posted - 2014.11.22 02:53:00 - [74] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Zindorak wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Zindorak wrote: Ahh yes now the RR needs some skill to operate unlike the previous RRs Compensating for kick takes skill. What the RR requires right now is precognition in order to know where your target will be in 0.6 seconds. I think of the Charge time as cocking the gun before you shoot it. But all weapons should have flaws. Ar has range and damage excluding the BrAR. RR CHarge time and Kick, CR damage and bullets per clip and ScR heat buildup and only good on Amarr Assault Yes, but do you have any idea of how much a person can do in 0.6 in an FPS game? good point it should be lowered to .4 Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 392	Posted - 2014.11.22 02:55:00 - [75] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Zindorak wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Zindorak wrote: Ahh yes now the RR needs some skill to operate unlike the previous RRs Compensating for kick takes skill. What the RR requires right now is precognition in order to know where your target will be in 0.6 seconds. I think of the Charge time as cocking the gun before you shoot it. But all weapons should have flaws. Ar has range and damage excluding the BrAR. RR CHarge time and Kick, CR damage and bullets per clip and ScR heat buildup and only good on Amarr Assault Yes, but do you have any idea of how much a person can do in 0.6 in an FPS game? good point it should be lowered to .4 or .3 I'm fine with four, but 6? nope *"I shall fight for my people until I can't come back."*
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1322	Posted - 2014.11.22 02:57:00 - [76] - Quote sir RAVEN WING wrote: Zindorak wrote: good point it should be lowered to .4 or .3 I'm fine with four, but 6? nope after testing it .6 is too long but i like listening to that whirr Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 392	Posted - 2014.11.22 03:00:00 - [77] - Quote Zindorak wrote: sir RAVEN WING wrote: Zindorak wrote: good point it should be lowered to .4 or .3 I'm fine with four, but 6? nope after testing it .6 is too long but i like listening to that whirr Why not sign on the dotted line? . . .your name here. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . *"I shall fight for my people until I can't come back."*
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 695	Posted - 2014.11.22 04:58:00 - [78] - Quote Espla El espia wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: not to mention that the ScR can kill you before you can fire a round. RR on caldari... i see Scr and i HAVE to run or i die. ScR is what? +700 dps? plus 20% against shields. even if you bricked your shield on caldari assault, itd still kill you in one second unless you dual tank with plates. you cant run a racial fit against it. now look at the RR charge up time. in that first second, youll be doingwhat? 100 dps? aginst shields too most likely so youre looking at 90 damage vs +700 dps. this is at ALL ranges too lol. so yea... theres a huge balancing problem there. You're looking at guns in a vaccuum, and that is doomed to be a flawed perspective. You're not going to land every hit by mashing the trigger button on an ScR and it is likely to blast heat in your face if you decide to do that. That range statement is false- RR has best range, and there are times in my Amarr Commando where I can't hit the RR users because of that. As for the fact that ScR eats shields, the Amarrians could whine that my Minmatar Assault easily kills them with ACR while managing to be much more agile and thus able to escape when situations go bad. Just what DO you put in those Cal low slots? Kincats and cardiacs? If so, then you know why scramblers eat you up. My next statement has great relevance to Fox's "precognition" AND your "first second" calculations: That situation where you are 100% caught off-guard is a losing situation with almost any other weapon in the game, which means you aren't looking at the enemy shooting you. It takes time to turn and find that enemy, then aim with any gun and that will prevent other weapons from being strictly superior to the RR. Going along with this, scanning is extremely powerful at the moment (as are heavies) so I would expect RR popularity to decrease once that gets nerfed because (in the eyes of one who loves Minmatar Scout) everyone DOES have precognition. If DUST literally had 1 dimension and time vs 3 and time, then I would take what you said completely seriously. Also, while a lot can happen in one second, this game is awesome to me because it has strategy over a longer period than fractions of a second. That is more enjoyable to me than who hits the trigger first, in, say, Destiny. I swear, even if you suck at aiming in that game, everything gets headshots and that bothers me. Meh, I wanna edit my post over and over but I'm just gonna put it out and see how it goes over. the issue is that because the RR has lower dps than other rifles, you have to shoot first everytime. you cant even win if you both start shooting at the same time because the RR has a delay. so everyone else gets a head start in the dps race and RR is the slowest of all. you cant win. the RR has the best range but you have to sacrifice sustained fire to take advantage of it. the kick and recoil wont let get accurate hits at range beyond the ScR. and at those ranges, the Scr can simply charge shot you. so neither weapon will get perfect hits but the hits coming from the ScR rquired to kill me a far less than the number to kill me as a disclaimer im only talking about racial fits
Espla El espia Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2014.11.22 07:45:00 - [79] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: the issue is that because the RR has lower dps than other rifles, you have to shoot first everytime. you cant even win if you both start shooting at the same time because the RR has a delay. so everyone else gets a head start in the dps race and RR is the slowest of all. you cant win. the RR has the best range but you have to sacrifice sustained fire to take advantage of it. the kick and recoil wont let get accurate hits at range beyond the ScR. and at those ranges, the Scr can simply charge shot you. so neither weapon will get perfect hits but the hits coming from the ScR rquired to kill me a far less than the number to kill me as a disclaimer im only talking about racial fits So, in terms of racial fits, do you fit your assault like so- Assault C/1-series! (just advanced, not proto) HIGHS: 2x Proto Extender, Adv Energizer, Adv Light Weapon Enhancer LOWS: Proto Shield Regulator, Proto Reactive Plate Light Weapon - Rail RIfle Sidearm - Magsec (I prefer this one, you can use Bolt if you like but it's silly considering you're weak CQC) Equipment - Nanite Injector/Nanohive 99% of the time I'd want Nanite injector, but if you know the match will become a camping session, better set up that tent properly, yeah? Anyways, that fit gives you 3-4s delay for roughly 49 HP/s recharge, so your entire shield bar comes back in 14s after being fully depleted, and you're allowed to bleed a little armor damage here and there. TBH if the enemy comes near, you'll want to use the Magsec anyways for its higher DPS alone, not counting its lower kick and spool-up time. I can't tell you how many times I've died with a 900 EHP Amarr Commando suit in about a second to a single scout with an ACR, or how many times I've been a Min Assault killing a 1k EHP Sentinel with my ACR. This whole "I AM DEAD AND FEEL THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO!" is not specific to just your Cal suit trying to fend off Amarrian laz0rs, just rest easy knowing that plenty of people feel that way when you shoot them dead, too. As I said- I want the spool time reduced to around 0.4-0.45s, but sometimes I can't resist talking about how truly diverse and interactive the gameplay is, and often will get lost in that.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 695	Posted - 2014.11.22 07:58:00 - [80] - Quote Espla El espia wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: the issue is that because the RR has lower dps than other rifles, you have to shoot first everytime. you cant even win if you both start shooting at the same time because the RR has a delay. so everyone else gets a head start in the dps race and RR is the slowest of all. you cant win. the RR has the best range but you have to sacrifice sustained fire to take advantage of it. the kick and recoil wont let get accurate hits at range beyond the ScR. and at those ranges, the Scr can simply charge shot you. so neither weapon will get perfect hits but the hits coming from the ScR rquired to kill me a far less than the number to kill me as a disclaimer im only talking about racial fits So, in terms of racial fits, do you fit your assault like so- Assault C/1-series! (just advanced, not proto) HIGHS: 2x Proto Extender, Adv Energizer, Adv Light Weapon Enhancer LOWS: Proto Shield Regulator, Proto Reactive Plate Light Weapon - Rail RIfle Sidearm - Magsec (I prefer this one, you can use Bolt if you like but it's silly considering you're weak CQC) Equipment - Nanite Injector/Nanohive 99% of the time I'd want Nanite injector, but if you know the match will become a camping session, better set up that tent properly, yeah? Anyways, that fit gives you 3-4s delay for roughly 49 HP/s recharge, so your entire shield bar comes back in 14s after being fully depleted, and you're allowed to bleed a little armor damage here and there. TBH if the enemy comes near, you'll want to use the Magsec anyways for its higher DPS alone, not counting its lower kick and spool-up time. I can't tell you how many times I've died with a 900 EHP Amarr Commando suit in about a second to a single scout with an ACR, or how many times I've been a Min Assault killing a 1k EHP Sentinel with my ACR. This whole "I AM DEAD AND FEEL THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO!" is not specific to just your Cal suit trying to fend off Amarrian laz0rs, just rest easy knowing that plenty of people feel that way when you shoot them dead, too. As I said- I want the spool time reduced to around 0.4-0.45s, but sometimes I can't resist talking about how truly diverse and interactive the gameplay is, and often will get lost in that. for that suit i run 3 extenders 1 energizers 2 regulators adv RR and magsec. a charge shot will drop my shields, and a flux will do it too. if that happens, my entire defense is gone. sometimes i feel its better to focus on getting my regen as fast as possible because of stuff like that. but we dont have the HP to do much else. 49 hp/s is ok for certain things like long range combat when you can hold the enemy at range. at closer ranges you want more regen because of flux grenades and people sniping and other stuff. you need to have shield hp constantly. but you regen is constantly stopped by literally everything in the game. theres no point to having high HP shields when they can get fluxed because you shield recharge rate actually isnt higher enough to recover from it. literally all you need to do is flux and then bum rush with any weapon to keep my shield from recharging and ill die.

CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2548	Posted - 2014.11.22 10:27:00 - [81] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense Rather high and mighty there aren't you. I am pretty sure he was having a laugh here / trolling a little. I doubt he was being serious..... "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5242	Posted - 2014.11.22 11:04:00 - [82] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense Rather high and mighty there aren't you. I am pretty sure he was having a laugh here / trolling a little. I doubt he was being serious..... Doubt it. People in this thread are deliberately misrepresenting his words and basically trying to rally people to the cause of making him out to be an idiot. While the dislike of the RR changes is fine, people are deliberately attacking Rattati by misquoting him, using his words out of context and using false information to push their otherwise valid cocerns. The tactics being used are juvenile, transparent and bluntly insulting to anyone who has tried to leave the schoolyard behind them in their adult life. This thread holds no value to the community. And when the people involved are called on this behavior and the fact that they are violating the TOS and they are using patently false information they excuse their bluntly obnoxious behavior with straight asspulls of logic to make everyone else the ones at fault. Bluntly there are no less than four posters who should have been banned for deliberately misrepresenting the words of the devs to create a riot on the forums. The fact that they haven't been banned is nothing short of amazing. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 695	Posted - 2014.11.22 13:24:00 - [83] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CommanderBolt wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense Rather high and mighty there aren't you. I am pretty sure he was having a laugh here / trolling a little. I doubt he was being serious..... Doubt it. People in this thread are deliberately misrepresenting his words and basically trying to rally people to the cause of making him out to be an idiot. While the dislike of the RR changes is fine, people are deliberately attacking Rattati by misquoting him, using his words out of context and using false information to push their otherwise valid cocerns. The tactics being used are juvenile, transparent and bluntly insulting to anyone who has tried to leave the schoolyard behind them in their adult life. This thread holds no value to the community. And when the people involved are called on this behavior and the fact that they are violating the TOS and they are using patently false information they excuse their bluntly obnoxious behavior with straight asspulls of logic to make everyone else the ones at fault. Bluntly there are no less than four posters who should have been banned for deliberately misrepresenting the words of the devs to create a riot on the forums. The fact that they haven't been banned is nothing short of amazing. i just finished scimming the first two pages of all your posts on the forums.... do you ever give any suggestions on anything? all ive seen so far are posts from you saying people are wrong, or they dont understand something. not once have i seen a post by you explaining anything at all. no suggestions, no feedback, nothing. just a bunch of "Get good" and HTFU bs everyone in this thread can feel free to click on this guys name and read his posts and see what im talking about. even in this thread, you have not offered anything on why the RR is good, or any suggestions to help Rattati reach his goals. im not here to create a riot on the forums. im here to help get **** done. and the first thing we need to do that is get more complete data. if you dont have any suggestions, then please.... please, stfu. EDIT: and to Rattati... im sorry for misinterpreting you. please provide more in depth data. id like to avoid a repeat of whats happened
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5242	Posted - 2014.11.22 14:51:00 - [84] - Quote Yup. Click my name. Find out everything about me in two pages of responses. Confirming I never give suggestions, make proposals on PC, Faction Warfare, sentinel balance, AV, ADS nerfs and where they fall apart with recommendations on how to adjust. I never provide meaningful feedback on logistics or commandos because I'm too busy trolling. I have never stated that I find the neutering of HAVs detrimental to the game or provided suggestions on how to rebalance forge guns so that the breach and standard are useful at something other than ghetto sniper. I have never weighed in seriously on the problems inherent to the RR and AR. Totally never contribute meaningfully to anything ever. I just occupy myself calling people on their bullsh*t. Confirming that my commentary has no basis on theinterest in a healthy game or sane community. By the way, the acknowledgement of misrepresenting Rattati's words and moving along with productive discussion was all that I wanted from this. You did that. Im done poking at you now. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 695	Posted - 2014.11.22 15:04:00 - [85] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Yup. Click my name. Find out everything about me in two pages of responses. Confirming I never give suggestions, make proposals on PC, Faction Warfare, sentinel balance, AV, ADS nerfs and where they fall apart with recommendations on how to adjust. I never provide meaningful feedback on logistics or commandos because I'm too busy trolling. I have never stated that I find the neutering of HAVs detrimental to the game or provided suggestions on how to rebalance forge guns so that the breach and standard are useful at something other than ghetto sniper. I have never weighed in seriously on the problems inherent to the RR and AR. Totally never contribute meaningfully to anything ever. I just occupy myself calling people on their bullsh*t. Confirming that my commentary has no basis on theinterest in a healthy game or sane community. By the way, the acknowledgement of misrepresenting Rattati's words and moving along with productive discussion was all that I wanted from this. You did that. Im done poking at you now. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181932&find=unread nuff said
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5242	Posted - 2014.11.22 15:38:00 - [86] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Yup. Click my name. Find out everything about me in two pages of responses. Confirming I never give suggestions, make proposals on PC, Faction Warfare, sentinel balance, AV, ADS nerfs and where they fall apart with recommendations on how to adjust. I never provide meaningful feedback on logistics or commandos because I'm too busy trolling. I have never stated that I find the neutering of HAVs detrimental to the game or provided suggestions on how to rebalance forge guns so that the breach and standard are useful at something other than ghetto sniper. I have never weighed in seriously on the problems inherent to the RR and AR. Totally never contribute meaningfully to anything ever. I just occupy myself calling people on their bullsh*t. Confirming that my commentary has no basis on theinterest in a healthy game or sane community. By the way, the acknowledgement of misrepresenting Rattati's words and moving along with productive discussion was all that I wanted from this. You did that. Im done poking at you now. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181932&find=unread nuff said considering that OP is trollbait? Yeah, nuff said. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Draden Brohiem D3ATH CARD RUST415 12	Posted - 2014.11.22 16:08:00 - [87] - Quote So I use the rail, but I'm no ground gamer anymore. My respec has about 95% of my points into tanks. I'd say drop the charge to 3 seconds, and let everything else be. We don't need 10 pages of whining for that do we? Funny how none of you vouched for other rifles like this?! The AR was abysmal for over a year!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5242	Posted - 2014.11.22 16:17:00 - [88] - Quote Draden Brohiem wrote: So I use the rail, but I'm no ground gamer anymore. My respec has about 95% of my points into tanks. I'd say drop the charge to 3 seconds, and let everything else be. We don't need 10 pages of whining for that do we? Funny how none of you vouched for other rifles like this?! The AR was abysmal for over a year! it's a 0.6 seconds, which is significant time delay for shots fired. 3 seconds would be increasing the delay by a multiple of 5. trick is, the change to the charge time that was meant to bring it to heel in CQC really hoses it at long range too EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
DDx77 The Exemplars 32	Posted - 2014.11.22 18:20:00 - [89] - Quote I personally still don't like the kick on the rr. Would returning the kick to pre 1.9 and have a charge time of .05 be a good compromise or not? I would also like to suggest keeping the rr as is but add a 5% kick and charge time reduction per level on hybrid/rail weapons for the caldari assault
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 262	Posted - 2014.11.22 19:29:00 - [90] - Quote Can you add a sight to the assault rail rifle? The iron sights are ridiculous they don't even show where the rounds go.... it's just a misleading target the ASCR has a sight because it's "LONG RANGE" Therefore, so should the ARR! it's a long range gun! "If there is a strafe nerf in this game, remove hit detection"- manboar 2014

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 143	Posted - 2014.11.22 19:39:00 - [91] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: Can you add a sight to the assault rail rifle? The iron sights are ridiculous they don't even show where the rounds go.... it's just a misleading target the ASCR has a sight because it's "LONG RANGE" Therefore, so should the ARR! it's a long range gun! I am halfway in agreement on this; primarily because the ARR should not have the regular RR sight. Rather, it should have the current zoom level, and the BP sight- assuming that it is given an optical sight at all. Just my 0.02 ISK on that matter. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 100	Posted - 2014.11.22 23:52:00 - [92] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: You should have tried it a few days ago it had kick in ads also, up down and side to side, I liked it then and even though the kick was reduced still like it now. The rifle is still more versatile than the LR and hits like a truck, It takes a bit of practice m8 spend a little more time with it before you judge well on an assault because a side arm is helpful if a scout is about. I agree and if anything lr is supposed to be the most dominant long range rifle as it's the only gun that drops to half damage in cqc..regardless of player ability or aim lr is shoddy in cqc ..no matter what you do short of a headshot your efficacy will almost always be cut in half in cqc .. with tacar.. RR Cr..all can be used in ccqc better than lr..so obviously lr is supposed to have the highest abilities at range Atm it does .so awesome some to have the weakest cqc rifle have an area of dominance again Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 100	Posted - 2014.11.23 00:00:00 - [93] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense Fir just a moment I thought you said bananable offense .. Oh please rat..banana me Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 305	Posted - 2014.11.23 00:19:00 - [94] - Quote Devs only respond with sarcasm or jokes these days. But they don't seem to care about anything important, only BS or "That's not what I said.. blablabla" On topic: IMO the kick was perfect when they changed it. MINA should have STFU once and for all, because it was in a great place. Now it's pretty useless with this .6 charge up time. Bring it back to the Balance Hotfix status (.3 charge and big hip fire kick). And only change the RR this time, not the ARRGÇª Take out all forms of scans and you'll see how great Dust can be. Scrubs will cry, good players will love it.
Espla El espia Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2014.11.23 01:42:00 - [95] - Quote Sequal Rise wrote: Devs only respond with sarcasm or jokes these days. But they don't seem to care about anything important, only BS or "That's not what I said.. blablabla" I don't think that is a fair statement to make. Their job is to crank out content and they've done it remarkably well and at a good and deliberate pace. I enjoy joking about how EVE Online gets less PvP fine-tuning, whereas DUST has loads of it and it's generally of higher quality. Granted, EVE Online is a very different game and so my joke isn't fair to the members of CCP that work on it, but I realize this and refuse to harangue them for my joke. I don't presume to know why they reply to those comments, but looking at his last few comments I believe your statement is unfounded. After having tried the RR again for a few matches, it hits enemies really easily compared to ScR, and the delay is a little bit of a nuisance. I'd like to see Caldari Assaults get a reduction in charge time bonus, either 3 or 4%, with the RR being 0.5s spool time.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 695	Posted - 2014.11.23 07:41:00 - [96] - Quote the problem with the kick AND charge time is when combined they keep you from quickly getting accuracy by using burst fire. everyone know thats if you gun has recoiled too me you lose accuracy. so we know to stop shooting for a second to "reset" the accuracy and recoil. if the RR charge time was ZERO then it wouldnt matter if it kicked like crazy because we could just burst fire with it. but having to wait .6 seconds eveytime you stop shooting to get some accuracy is bad. it gives the .6 seconds of time to deal free damage every time you stop shooting, but the alternative is to keep shooting and waste ammo while not even hitting them. if we HAD to keep one of the nerfs, id rather see the charge time reduced and we kept the kick, because we can compensate for that ourselves.
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 305	Posted - 2014.11.23 10:19:00 - [97] - Quote @Espia el espia : Look at latest blue tags here and in general discussion. Take out all forms of scans and you'll see how great Dust can be. Scrubs will cry, good players will love it.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5273	Posted - 2014.11.24 10:35:00 - [98] - Quote Generally I have found that the shorter and more trollish responses from people usually originate when their minds are occupied doing actual work. Seems to hold true with the CCP devs too. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.


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"If there is a strafe nerf in this game, remove hit detection"- manboar 2014