DUST Search - CQC QQ neuters RR at Long Range

Jathniel wrote:

I've been using the RR a lot recently.

And that delay really is problematic. I don't like firing my weapon when I dont think my shot will connect, and or I don't think I will immediately make the kill.
So I tend to fire my RR in bursts, or a small series of volleys, at the head. I find myself pre-firing around corners to compensate for the delay; and this is making me do exactly what I hate, shooting and missing.

When I pause firing to reacquire my target, the delay is debilitating, and the target has escaped.

The RR is losing even in engagements where it should be winning.
I'm in a Gal suit at range, shooting at a guy with with a scrambler who is in an Armor tanked Amarr suit, and he can put so many rounds into me before my RR spins up to cause damage, that even though I should have won on merits of sheer damage profile... I lose anyway because the gun is too slow.

This is AT RANGE, where the RR is supposed to dominate.

We have NO decent anti-armor DMR-style, semi-auto weapons in this game currently.
The ScR and the TAR are premiere semi-auto weapons, that are currently beating the RR at its own game.
There is nothing like the TAR or SCR, that is anti-armor.

We need to bring the hipfire kick back, and reduce the delay. Scrubs need to stop running RRs at close range.
And we need a proper DMR-style RR. A true Tactical Rail Rifle. Or a Charge Rail Rifle.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4975	Posted - 2014.11.20 13:44:00 - [1] - Quote I am Pissed! Truly Pissed, and that does not happen that often. CQC QQ has caused Rattati to neuter the long range capability of the Rail Rifle. I spawned into an Ambush OMS match were each team spawned with cover separated by 60m of open field. I had initially spawned with a Militia HMG but at that range I could not do enough damage to even log an Assist, so after making a Hail Mary attempt to cross the open ground on their flank, and dying, I spawned in again in my Min Logi fit which has a Rail Rifle. A fire fight at 60m to 70m range, this situation was made for the Rail Rifle! So I find some cover and then line up a shot, and here is what happened: Line up Shot, Pull trigger, waitGÇª waitGÇª waitGÇª target ducks behind coverGÇª Rail Rifle fires. At one point this happened 5 times in a row! I would pull up the sight, get the dot on the target, pull the trigger, and by the time the gun fired my target had already ducked back behind cover. Only about 25% of the time was the target still visible when my Rail Rifle finally went off. In the time it took my Rail Rifle to charge, the other guys were firing off a bust from their CR or ScR and then ducking for cover again, as you do in this type of long range fire fight. The only kills I got with the RR were a Sentinel who ran out into an open field chasing a kill, and a Scout who was distracted placing Remote Explosives on a Tank. So, how did the Rail Rifle get ****** over like this? Well let me recap. In a minor Hot Fix before 1.9 Rattati applied a fully appropriate nerf to the Rail RifleGÇÖs short range capabilities by increasing hip fire Kick. Although I normally avoid CQC fights when using a Rail Rifle, I deliberately went looking for them to test this change to the Rail Rifle. I found it was not that bad at all. The kick would not even start until you had fired 15 rounds, and then when it did start to kick you could compensate fairly well for another 10 to 15 rounds. If you took your finger off the trigger for a moment and then waited out the very short charge time you could fire off the rest of the clip without too much trouble. The nerf was so minor that I continued to use the Rail Rifle on my Min Logi despite not having a sidearm to switch to in Close Quarter Combat (CQC). However certain people QQGÇÖed about the kick, basing their analysis of the kick on what it does if you hold the trigger through the full 40 round clip. I donGÇÖt even fire continuously for that long when using an HMG, unless I am trying to kill a LAV with it. I also donGÇÖt hip fire with the RR unless my target is within 10m of me. Mostly at near-mid range I just line up the shot from the hip and switch to ADS just as I am about to fire. It the proper way to use most Rifles in mid range. If they are closer than 10m, then they are mighty big targets even if my weapon is kicking a bit. But the QQ was strong from people who wanted to use the best Long Range Rifle in close quarters, and Rattati gave in. When the Hotfix changes were accidentally reverted with the release of 1.9, Rattati tweaked the nerf to RR before applying the Hotfix again. He toned down the Kick and increased the Charge time, which appears from my experience this morning to have completely neutered the Rail Rifle at long range. Now the Rail Rifle, which is supposed to be the best Long Range Rifle, is ineffectual in long range fire fights! There is nothing more frustrating than pulling the trigger when you have someone in your sights, and seeing your target wonder out of sight before your weapon finally goes off. There is not even a charge up sound effect to give you some indication of how much longer you will have to wait. I so hate it when QQ from people who are trying to use a weapon or suit in an unintended manner gets that weapon or suit nerfed to ineffectiveness in its core function! The shear idiocy of some of the people on this forum can be stunning at times. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4975	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:16:00 - [2] - Quote What I said about the RR kick after the original change and before it was undone by 1.9. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4991	Posted - 2014.11.20 19:54:00 - [3] - Quote Myron Kundera wrote: Is this accurate? RR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when in ADS, and high-kick and low charge up time when hipfiring. ARR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when hipfiring, and high-kick and low charge up time when in ADS. Would like opinions please... I don't think it really makes sense to have a different charge time for hip fire and ADS. It is not like the internal workings of the gun are effected by how you hold it. The difference in kick and dispersion is do to you stabilizing the guy with your shoulder when you ADS. Rail Rifle currently has a charge time of 0.6 seconds, which is ridiculous. It should be no more than 0.3 seconds. The Rail Rifle should have better zoom in ADS than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more kick and more dispersion in hip fire mode than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more range than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should do less DPS than the Assault Rail Rifle. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4994	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:40:00 - [4] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. Well, Rattati doesn't cave to unfounded QQ often, so I would be willing to forgive him this time if he fixes it in a timely manner. The only discussion with the community I have seen was in my thread about RR kick. Most of the QQ was in this thread but Rattati did not post in it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5012	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:32:00 - [5] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: What I said about the RR kick after the original change and before it was undone by 1.9. RR Kick QQ thread. Yes, please sweep away legitimate complaints about a weapon being unable to perform by labeling them as "QQ" Fox, that's a mature and adult thing to do instead of addressing complaints simply belittle the people who might make them. I tested the RR after you complained about it and found your complaints to be bull ****. Therefore I label it as QQ. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5012	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:35:00 - [6] - Quote Jathniel wrote: I've been using the RR a lot recently. And that delay really is problematic. I don't like firing my weapon when I dont think my shot will connect, and or I don't think I will immediately make the kill. So I tend to fire my RR in bursts, or a small series of volleys, at the head. I find myself pre-firing around corners to compensate for the delay; and this is making me do exactly what I hate, shooting and missing. When I pause firing to reacquire my target, the delay is debilitating, and the target has escaped. The RR is losing even in engagements where it should be winning. I'm in a Gal suit at range, shooting at a guy with with a scrambler who is in an Armor tanked Amarr suit, and he can put so many rounds into me before my RR spins up to cause damage, that even though I should have won on merits of sheer damage profile... I lose anyway because the gun is too slow. This is AT RANGE, where the RR is supposed to dominate. We have NO decent anti-armor DMR-style, semi-auto weapons in this game currently. The ScR and the TAR are premiere semi-auto weapons, that are currently beating the RR at its own game. There is nothing like the TAR or SCR, that is anti-armor. We need to bring the hipfire kick back, and reduce the delay. Scrubs need to stop running RRs at close range. And we need a proper DMR-style RR. A true Tactical Rail Rifle. Or a Charge Rail Rifle. I operate the same way. If I am not going to hit something I donGÇÖt pull the trigger. The 0.6 second delay will teach people very bad habits as it encourages users to pull the trigger as soon as they see an enemy like a noob, even before they have had time to aim. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:39:00 - [7] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXRM3lFRwRI It is obviously balanced, the RR now has an effective counter that requires us to have situational awareness, and to prefire at times so get good and you better bring a hive. Much like our opposing faction the gallente where range is a constant concern the difference is that a RR user is still effective close range where a AR user has no options at long range so it looks to me that RR users still have an obvious advantage... So I would like to alter my earlier statement, the change was a effective way to balance the RR against other weapons, but the RR itself still is at an advantage so it is not balanced. If they wanted to balance it further they could add much more hipfire kick,restore kick to ads, or increase kick progression. Blueprint, do we ever agree on anything? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:58:00 - [8] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. What he said is it was BOTH overpopular AND overpowered (in terms of K/S). I made the same mistake you did when I read this post. You have to pay close attention to the colors in the K/S graph -- the RR was leading in K/S and far and away leading in usage. If I may be so bold, it appears to me that Rattati was concerned with both. What's more, I think you are out of line to suggest otherwise, much less thumb your nose in his face when called on it. so we balance weapon based on popularity now? well what if the reason for the RR's popularity was because everyone simply liked the sound of it? do you nerf the sound effects? what if color made if popular? do we change the color? If everyone and their dog decided to use a rifle because it was a nice color and had a cool sound, then the average number of kills per spawn with that rifle would go down, because the average FPS skill level of everyone and their dog is much lower than the average skill level of the people who find the rifle matches their play style. If a rifle is hugely popular, and still has an average kills per spawn count that is considerably higher than other rifles, then there is something wrong. Popularity of a rifle should drive down the average kills per spawn, due to all the people with 0.5 or lower KDR who start using it. If a Rifle was hugely popular and the average kills per spawn for that Rifle was similar to the average kills per spawn of all Rifles put together, then that would not be a problem. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:35:00 - [9] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Ahh yes now the RR needs some skill to operate unlike the previous RRs Compensating for kick takes skill. What the RR requires right now is precognition in order to know where your target will be in 0.6 seconds. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:37:00 - [10] - Quote Espla El espia wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXRM3lFRwRI It is obviously balanced, the RR now has an effective counter that requires us to have situational awareness, and to prefire at times so get good and you better bring a hive. Much like our opposing faction the gallente where range is a constant concern the difference is that a RR user is still effective close range where a AR user has no options at long range so it looks to me that RR users still have an obvious advantage... So I would like to alter my earlier statement, the change was a effective way to balance the RR against other weapons, but the RR itself still is at an advantage so it is not balanced. If they wanted to balance it further they could add much more hipfire kick,restore kick to ads, or increase kick progression. I agree. The most common weapon by far used to be RR, and I'm happy to be seeing other weapons (namely ACR and ScR) being used, but in all honesty there are still tons of RR's in most matches I play- even the CQC matches. That will change over the next couple of weeks. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:45:00 - [11] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: [...] Keep the rail rifle profile as is and introduce a more suitable bonus to the caldari assault suit that decreases charge time per level... give us loyalists a proper racial bonus for our rifle damnit. Cool idea, sounds similar to the heat damage Amarr Assault bonus. I like this ! Except that the Scrambler Rifle and Laser Rifle are still usable on other suits. If they increased charge time in order to give the Caldari Assault a charge time reduction bonus, then the Rail Rifle still needs its base charge time reduced to something between the 0.3 it had and the 0.6 it has now, because at 0.6 it is really gimped for anyone without a charge time reduction bonus. Also, if the Caldari Assault get a Charge Time reduction bonus, they are going to be deadly with the Charged Sniper Rifle, and Bolt Pistol. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5017	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:48:00 - [12] - Quote Zindorak wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Zindorak wrote: Ahh yes now the RR needs some skill to operate unlike the previous RRs Compensating for kick takes skill. What the RR requires right now is precognition in order to know where your target will be in 0.6 seconds. I think of the Charge time as cocking the gun before you shoot it. But all weapons should have flaws. Ar has range and damage excluding the BrAR. RR CHarge time and Kick, CR damage and bullets per clip and ScR heat buildup and only good on Amarr Assault Yes, but do you have any idea of how much a person can do in 0.6 in an FPS game? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.