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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4975	Posted - 2014.11.20 13:44:00 - [1] - Quote I am Pissed! Truly Pissed, and that does not happen that often. CQC QQ has caused Rattati to neuter the long range capability of the Rail Rifle. I spawned into an Ambush OMS match were each team spawned with cover separated by 60m of open field. I had initially spawned with a Militia HMG but at that range I could not do enough damage to even log an Assist, so after making a Hail Mary attempt to cross the open ground on their flank, and dying, I spawned in again in my Min Logi fit which has a Rail Rifle. A fire fight at 60m to 70m range, this situation was made for the Rail Rifle! So I find some cover and then line up a shot, and here is what happened: Line up Shot, Pull trigger, waitGÇª waitGÇª waitGÇª target ducks behind coverGÇª Rail Rifle fires. At one point this happened 5 times in a row! I would pull up the sight, get the dot on the target, pull the trigger, and by the time the gun fired my target had already ducked back behind cover. Only about 25% of the time was the target still visible when my Rail Rifle finally went off. In the time it took my Rail Rifle to charge, the other guys were firing off a bust from their CR or ScR and then ducking for cover again, as you do in this type of long range fire fight. The only kills I got with the RR were a Sentinel who ran out into an open field chasing a kill, and a Scout who was distracted placing Remote Explosives on a Tank. So, how did the Rail Rifle get ****** over like this? Well let me recap. In a minor Hot Fix before 1.9 Rattati applied a fully appropriate nerf to the Rail RifleGÇÖs short range capabilities by increasing hip fire Kick. Although I normally avoid CQC fights when using a Rail Rifle, I deliberately went looking for them to test this change to the Rail Rifle. I found it was not that bad at all. The kick would not even start until you had fired 15 rounds, and then when it did start to kick you could compensate fairly well for another 10 to 15 rounds. If you took your finger off the trigger for a moment and then waited out the very short charge time you could fire off the rest of the clip without too much trouble. The nerf was so minor that I continued to use the Rail Rifle on my Min Logi despite not having a sidearm to switch to in Close Quarter Combat (CQC). However certain people QQGÇÖed about the kick, basing their analysis of the kick on what it does if you hold the trigger through the full 40 round clip. I donGÇÖt even fire continuously for that long when using an HMG, unless I am trying to kill a LAV with it. I also donGÇÖt hip fire with the RR unless my target is within 10m of me. Mostly at near-mid range I just line up the shot from the hip and switch to ADS just as I am about to fire. It the proper way to use most Rifles in mid range. If they are closer than 10m, then they are mighty big targets even if my weapon is kicking a bit. But the QQ was strong from people who wanted to use the best Long Range Rifle in close quarters, and Rattati gave in. When the Hotfix changes were accidentally reverted with the release of 1.9, Rattati tweaked the nerf to RR before applying the Hotfix again. He toned down the Kick and increased the Charge time, which appears from my experience this morning to have completely neutered the Rail Rifle at long range. Now the Rail Rifle, which is supposed to be the best Long Range Rifle, is ineffectual in long range fire fights! There is nothing more frustrating than pulling the trigger when you have someone in your sights, and seeing your target wonder out of sight before your weapon finally goes off. There is not even a charge up sound effect to give you some indication of how much longer you will have to wait. I so hate it when QQ from people who are trying to use a weapon or suit in an unintended manner gets that weapon or suit nerfed to ineffectiveness in its core function! The shear idiocy of some of the people on this forum can be stunning at times. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
abdullah muzaffar G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 64	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:14:00 - [2] - Quote damn it, why cant ccp just give it a damage hill...
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4975	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:16:00 - [3] - Quote What I said about the RR kick after the original change and before it was undone by 1.9. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 357	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:33:00 - [4] - Quote You should have tried it a few days ago it had kick in ads also, up down and side to side, I liked it then and even though the kick was reduced still like it now. The rifle is still more versatile than the LR and hits like a truck, It takes a bit of practice m8 spend a little more time with it before you judge well on an assault because a side arm is helpful if a scout is about. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
The Master Race Immortal Guides 359	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:33:00 - [5] - Quote You should have tried it a few days ago it had kick in ads also, up down and side to side, I liked it then and even though the kick was reduced still like it now. The rifle is still more versatile than the LR and hits like a truck, It takes a bit of practice m8 spend a little more time with it before you judge well on an assault because a side arm is helpful if a scout is about. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
Ku Shala The Generals 1020	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:01:00 - [6] - Quote latency on the server has been crap the rail is meh but if your not pumping the charge which is extremely annoying to listen to (sounds like the repair from StarWarsBF2) it takes forever to shoot 4 seconds is more than average ttk *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 195	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:00:00 - [7] - Quote I don't use the rail rifle, but this does makes me sad to hear.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6027	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:11:00 - [8] - Quote Yeah, this is what happens when people abuse mechanics of a weapon(or something else), then cry about it when the necessary changes are made. It hurts the people using it as intended. Drives me crazy. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Myron Kundera The Generals 109	Posted - 2014.11.20 19:40:00 - [9] - Quote Is this accurate? RR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when in ADS, and high-kick and low charge up time when hipfiring. ARR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when hipfiring, and high-kick and low charge up time when in ADS. Would like opinions please... "Greed, the forgotten mental disease" "Spray and pray makes my day" "Will use proto gear in self defense"
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1122	Posted - 2014.11.20 19:54:00 - [10] - Quote I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4991	Posted - 2014.11.20 19:54:00 - [11] - Quote Myron Kundera wrote: Is this accurate? RR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when in ADS, and high-kick and low charge up time when hipfiring. ARR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when hipfiring, and high-kick and low charge up time when in ADS. Would like opinions please... I don't think it really makes sense to have a different charge time for hip fire and ADS. It is not like the internal workings of the gun are effected by how you hold it. The difference in kick and dispersion is do to you stabilizing the guy with your shoulder when you ADS. Rail Rifle currently has a charge time of 0.6 seconds, which is ridiculous. It should be no more than 0.3 seconds. The Rail Rifle should have better zoom in ADS than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more kick and more dispersion in hip fire mode than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more range than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should do less DPS than the Assault Rail Rifle. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4835	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:22:00 - [12] - Quote The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. Founder & CEO: Fatal Absolution No matter what Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Charli Chaplin jr F0RSAKEN EMPIRE. 19	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:28:00 - [13] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. most of those guys doesn't know how to counter it, they just can't accept the fact that everything has a counter. ACCEPT YOUR FATE LIKE I ACCEPTED MINE.
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1127	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:28:00 - [14] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. Dont care dec 31st planetside 2 We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4994	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:40:00 - [15] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. Well, Rattati doesn't cave to unfounded QQ often, so I would be willing to forgive him this time if he fixes it in a timely manner. The only discussion with the community I have seen was in my thread about RR kick. Most of the QQ was in this thread but Rattati did not post in it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Jathniel G I A N T 1279	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:42:00 - [16] - Quote I've been using the RR a lot recently. And that delay really is problematic. I don't like firing my weapon when I dont think my shot will connect, and or I don't think I will immediately make the kill. So I tend to fire my RR in bursts, or a small series of volleys, at the head. I find myself pre-firing around corners to compensate for the delay; and this is making me do exactly what I hate, shooting and missing. When I pause firing to reacquire my target, the delay is debilitating, and the target has escaped. The RR is losing even in engagements where it should be winning. I'm in a Gal suit at range, shooting at a guy with with a scrambler who is in an Armor tanked Amarr suit, and he can put so many rounds into me before my RR spins up to cause damage, that even though I should have won on merits of sheer damage profile... I lose anyway because the gun is too slow. This is AT RANGE, where the RR is supposed to dominate. We have NO decent anti-armor DMR-style, semi-auto weapons in this game currently. The ScR and the TAR are premiere semi-auto weapons, that are currently beating the RR at its own game. There is nothing like the TAR or SCR, that is anti-armor. We need to bring the hipfire kick back, and reduce the delay. Scrubs need to stop running RRs at close range. And we need a proper DMR-style RR. A true Tactical Rail Rifle. Or a Charge Rail Rifle. Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1670	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:51:00 - [17] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: What I said about the RR kick after the original change and before it was undone by 1.9. RR Kick QQ thread. Yes, please sweep away legitimate complaints about a weapon being unable to perform by labeling them as "QQ" Fox, that's a mature and adult thing to do instead of addressing complaints simply belittle the people who might make them. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1670	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:54:00 - [18] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The RR was simply 2 good in CQC and the only issue was that IMO CCP Rattati did not wait long enough for the data to pour in...instead he saw crying and made a change from the original CQC kick to this. I keep asking, but where did he pool feedback before changing the RR charge time!? Anyone got a thread where he pooled feedback for increasing the charge time?? I ask because it :feels: like he saw QQ threads from people and knee jerked it which is very bad practice...ruining the damn thing instead of balancing it. Does anyone have any info on the progression of how we got here? I keep saying this people but for most weapons now we should be bringing in a surgeon's scalpel and not a butchers knife. But my RR feels butchered with the charge time increase. Bring back the kick please. Don't break the weapon. 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4836	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:12:00 - [19] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. Founder & CEO: Fatal Absolution No matter what Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Commander Noctus Gallente Loyalist 135	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:12:00 - [20] - Quote Agreed. The charge up time is a bit too long and it doesn't JUST encroach on CQC, but the entire effectiveness of the gun. Like many have said, I don't think there was any one moment where a long discussion about charge time was made. I'd rather they lower the charge time, up the kick a bit, and, most importantly, FIX THE MISFIRE GLITCH. Gallente User since Jan. 28th, 2013. Touched on every Gallente role since.

Myron Kundera The Generals 111	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:40:00 - [21] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Myron Kundera wrote: Is this accurate? RR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when in ADS, and high-kick and low charge up time when hipfiring. ARR should have low-kick and regular charge up time when hipfiring, and high-kick and low charge up time when in ADS. Would like opinions please... I don't think it really makes sense to have a different charge time for hip fire and ADS. It is not like the internal workings of the gun are effected by how you hold it. The difference in kick and dispersion is do to you stabilizing the guy with your shoulder when you ADS. Rail Rifle currently has a charge time of 0.6 seconds, which is ridiculous. It should be no more than 0.3 seconds. The Rail Rifle should have better zoom in ADS than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more kick and more dispersion in hip fire mode than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should have more range than the Assault Rail Rifle. The Rail Rifle should do less DPS than the Assault Rail Rifle. Agreed! +1 "Greed, the forgotten mental disease" "Spray and pray makes my day" "Will use proto gear in self defense"
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1301	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:32:00 - [22] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: I'm waitng for the rr haters to get in here and say its balanced. I am a RR hater, but no, the changes were excessive and the RR is pretty much broken. Because, that's why.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 686	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:36:00 - [23] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11868	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:30:00 - [24] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Maitue Mae Involuntary Manslaughter 115	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:37:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: 1) No the rail wasn't 'too good' in cqc. A person could defend themselves with it or attack others but that's the point of a service rifle. 2) The quadrupled kick ruined the weapon. No weapon should ever feel 'bad' to use, and that's exactly what even the doubled kick did, made it feel bad to use. I asked rattati for data on where kills were happening with the 'overused' rail rifle because I feel it was a map design problem and a problem with the rail having excessive range. Not a problem with their cqc ability. Rattati never responded. It very much feels like he looked at the weapon and went "THIS IS BEING USED TOO MUCH" and nerfed it based on only that. Apparently the weapon was overperforming at CQC where it should have been 'less good' compared to other rifles. But it wasn't. The quadruple kick ruined the weapon in CQC. I swapped to sidearm. he flat out said that he nerfed the RR because it was too popular. it actually wasnt OP at all according to his data. he simply wants to force us to use other weapons. which is of course, the most BS reason ive ever heard for nerfing something. Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2425277#post2425277 I believe this is where people would think you meant that. Ishukone gave me my papers to transfer into the State Hail To The Caldari State
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 136	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:36:00 - [26] - Quote Just chiming in: First, some background: I primarily run Amarr Logi. I used to absolutely love the regular RR. It was simply awesome in my view; I wanted to love the ARR more, but I just couldn't find my groove with it. The RR recoil nerf did change that for me- I decided that I did not feel comfortable with the RR's hipfire recoil, and retooled several fits to swap in an ARR. I forced myself to become comfortable with the ARR- the magazine capacity buff helped a lot with that, TBH. IMO, this is perfectly acceptable. I no longer felt that I could adequately defend myself in close quarter engagement without immediately resorting to a sidearm, so I switched to a weapon that I felt would be usable across a wider variety of situations, even if it wasn't quite as effective in some firefights as my previous weapon choice. That's not to say I stopped using the regular RR; rather, it became a much more specialized weapon for long-range shootouts. The charge time nerf changed that quite heavily. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the delay is so long that you think "hey, my gun should be filling that guy with a buttload of bullets by now", but that's not what's happening. It's not like the Bolt Pistol charge time nerf, where you could definitely see and feel the difference between the previous 0.25 sec charge, and the current 0.40 sec charge, but it was still very usable in the conditions it was intended to be deployed in. Doubling the charge time from 0.3 to 0.6 seconds was, quite frankly, overboard. A charge time nerf to, say, 0.4 seconds would have been acceptable- it's not quite long enough that you start wondering "why am I not shooting", but it's still long enough to make a big difference. Instead, we have a long range weapon that is sadly languishing because it is no longer functional in a long range role. The ARR is still quite good, and it's become my go-to weapon for my logi fits, but I'd really like to also have the regular RR for use if I need a bit more range- Scrambler rifles suck down an absolute ton of PG, and I am not overly fond of the TacAR. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 419	Posted - 2014.11.21 00:38:00 - [27] - Quote Solution is simple. Revert RR charge up time. Minimum range (like the laser rifle.)
VikingKong iBUN T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 230	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:57:00 - [28] - Quote Every time CCP ever nerf anything they overdo it with 2-3 different nerf's at once. They have been told OVER AND OVER BY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE to make smaller changes, and see the results before committing to further nerfing, in order to avoid completely nerfing a weapon or vehicle to **** so that it is literally unusable. I seriously do not understand why they can't listen to that simple and extremely logical advice. I've seen so so many people try to tell them.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 505	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:19:00 - [29] - Quote VikingKong iBUN wrote: Every time CCP ever nerf anything they overdo it with 2-3 different nerf's at once. Not always. Consider the Scout.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1672	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:19:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Misquoting a dev is a bannable offense No offense rattati, but you've still failed to assuage the concerns of people who like this weapon for whatever reason. I myself asked you for metrics as to where kills were happening with the rail rifle and where deaths were happening with those who used them and to what weapon, because I honestly believe that it's not a case of the weapon overperforming at short range, it's a case of it overperforming at long range. As it stands right now, any caldari 'loyalist' has a weapon that feels awful to use. Many of us don't feel like we're capable of playing the objective and our sidearms aren't exactly well suited to close quarters either. It's incredibly frustrating to feel like weapons are getting nerfed because they're too popular, and that certain races 'shouldn't be allowed' to do things. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.



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