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Needle Changes Will Hurt the Game.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 286	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:05:00 - [31] - Quote Ashley Swift wrote: Or OR how about a death isn't counted until the clone is terminated (like it should be). Now you getting picked up and dropped in 2 seconds won't give you more deaths. I know it's logical, I know it's crazy, but it works. oh and this^. your not dead till you bleed out, so being revived should not count as a death. Sage /thread
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4471	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:08:00 - [32] - Quote True Adamance wrote: MY ISK! MY ISK! MY ISK! http://i.imgur.com/kFhLdOG.jpg CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2074	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:11:00 - [33] - Quote Here's an interesting thought. Lots of people here love their KDRs, right? So suppose you don't get a death counted against your KDR until you are terminated? This would have people wanting to be revived because it wouldn't hurt their KDRs. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4473	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:14:00 - [34] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Lots of people here love their KDRs, right? So suppose you don't get a death counted against your KDR until you are terminated? This would have people wanting to be revived because it wouldn't hurt their KDRs. This is a thing I've been asking for for a long time. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 286	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:19:00 - [35] - Quote I think both sides of the argument can agree that the needle mechanics need to be changed. The following items listed would be the better way of implementing a solid fix: 1 Death is not recorded until clone termination. 2 Death screen is not shown until clone termination. 3 Revived player must accept revival or bleed out. This allows the revived to still be ready and have an active clear vision of the battlefield and would then have enough situational awareness to know wether to accept or choose death. The current scheduled fix will aid in the abandonment of the needle as well as logi slaying. Sage /thread
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 383	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:26:00 - [36] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Your Clone doesn't technically belong to you... It belongs to the team as a whole. You didn't build that clone, someone else built it for you. Actually, my game belongs to me. If I don't want to get revived in the middle of a firefight knowing the hmg is still firing right in front of me, I now have the ability to make that choice. Quote: This will hurt ....clutch games that come down to clone counts(Skirm,Dom). This is actually a good point. But it can be easily corrected by good players knowing when it's most prudent to request a revive, especially in ambush. AKA - StarVenger
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 383	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:38:00 - [37] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Lots of people here love their KDRs, right? So suppose you don't get a death counted against your KDR until you are terminated? This would have people wanting to be revived because it wouldn't hurt their KDRs. This is a thing I've been asking for for a long time. I understand why you would think this way, but I disagree. If you get put down, you got killed, no two ways about it. Guy who shot you earned a K, you unfortunately earned a D. Just because you can be revived doesn't mean you can un-ring that bell. AKA - StarVenger
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 286	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:39:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I definitely would prefer an accept/reject revive button, as I've said many times. Though this is better than doing nothing. The way nanite injectors previously worked is arguably a form of abusive gameplay, because it allowed other players to effectively take control of your character. I think denyrevive is terrible, from all standpoints. Why would a human being ever decline a revive? Also, teasing a logi by having him run over, put himself in danger and then refuse is disrespectful. If you want to picked up, you ask for it. I see your point Rattati. Look at my post and just remove the idea #3 Doshneil Antaro wrote: I think both sides of the argument can agree that the needle mechanics need to be changed. The following items listed would be the better way of implementing a solid fix: 1 Death is not recorded until clone termination. 2 Death screen is not shown until clone termination. 3 Revived player must accept revival or bleed out. This allows the revived to still be ready and have an active clear vision of the battlefield and would then have enough situational awareness to know wether to accept or choose death. The current scheduled fix will aid in the abandonment of the needle as well aspromote logi slaying. your current plan will do more harm while mine eliminates kdr greifing and will add to a more dynamically charged gameplay. Please rethink the current plan extensively. Sage /thread
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4477	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:43:00 - [39] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Lots of people here love their KDRs, right? So suppose you don't get a death counted against your KDR until you are terminated? This would have people wanting to be revived because it wouldn't hurt their KDRs. This is a thing I've been asking for for a long time. I understand why you would think this way, but I disagree. If you get put down, you got killed, no two ways about it. Guy who shot you earned a K, you unfortunately earned a D. Just because you can be revived doesn't mean you can un-ring that bell. I disagree. I would actually give the guy who shot 'me' a kill, but my death shouldn't count until termination. I am still alive. You should give additional points when a clone is properly terminated. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 383	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:47:00 - [40] - Quote KDR is a meta stat. Revive is in game lore. The two are wholey separate. AKA - StarVenger

Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 383	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:57:00 - [41] - Quote Example: You and a red get into a 1v1. He beats you and has earned a K. You have lost and have earned a D. He leaves area and 10 seconds later logibro happens upon you and stabs you. Do you erase that D? Did you really survive that fight? AKA - StarVenger
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 845	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:58:00 - [42] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Agree with the OP. People need to get over themselves and their precious KDR. Plus, now that they give shield HP back too, there's a lot less instakill. What should be done: - Take the needles off of the medic starter fits - Either a "reject" button or return of the "bleedout" button. (eliminates griefing) The default should be to accept revives, imo. You're the selfish one who doesn't want my needle? Hit the button. Everyone else shouldn't have to. Your loss, though, even on my BPO logi I run ADV needles and much less than 10% of the people I revive die before I rep them to full health (minus the occasional blueberry who runs off like an idiot and gets himself killed... not my problem). do not take the the needle of the medic starter fits...unless your planing on giving it a rep tool instead. although that needle change will hurt the game.. then again.. a lot more ppl will be losing there stuff as a result of this. but most ppl who get picked up are retards anyways. so i guess it doesnt matter. its the exploitation that needs fixing. lest say u can only be needled three times 4th death on your clone is instant bleedout or something like that. it would have to warrant a timer between revives. idk. im gonna go more detailed. newb gets killed.. medic revives. dies again. and gets revived again. if newb dies again right after. its instant bleedout. if newb does not die right after a lives for around 10-20 secs.(number still to be determined). and then he goes down. it wont be instant bleedout. and thus he can be needled again. pve for dust 514. so what? u killed me twice with proto?. i killed you once with my mlt fit. that takes more skill.
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 845	Posted - 2014.10.29 21:00:00 - [43] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Example: You and a red get into a 1v1. He beats you and has earned a K. You have lost and have earned a D. He leaves area and 10 seconds later logibro happens upon you and stabs you. Do you erase that D? Did you really survive that fight? i think its a yes to he survived the fight. did he win the fight?. no. but did he survive. yes. yes he did. pve for dust 514. so what? u killed me twice with proto?. i killed you once with my mlt fit. that takes more skill.
VikingKong iBUN Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 140	Posted - 2014.10.29 21:12:00 - [44] - Quote I always spam the "pick me up" button when I die anyway, even though it does nothing. I wouldn't mind the change because at least my random button spam will actually have a function.
CELESTA AUNGM Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 306	Posted - 2014.10.29 21:37:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think denyrevive is terrible, from all standpoints. Why would a human being ever decline a revive? Also, teasing a logi by having him run over, put himself in danger and then refuse is disrespectful. If you want to picked up, you ask for it. As Celesta turns the corner of a building, she is incapacitated by a Sniper. Two blue mercs are nearby, and she can see on her map they are approaching her. The blue mercs want to help her, of course---but they donGÇÖt know how Celesta was dropped by a waiting Sniper who will likely claim one or both of them before they can step out and revive her. Only Celesta knows it was a Sniper. She prefers to stay dead and sacrifice her ONE clone life, rather than toss THREE clone lives away like cheap dice. Besides, only SHE knows where the sniper is, and she prefers to regen somewhere else right away and flank around to sweep him out of his shooting perch. I prefer GÇ£Revive-MeGÇ¥ to be automatically ON all the time, but that the incapacitated player have a brief chance to turn off that blinking icon before GÇ£medicsGÇ¥ even see her as needing assistance. Universe of good wishes for the 49, especially CCP Eterne... No story can have life without writers and publishers.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 2465	Posted - 2014.10.29 21:59:00 - [46] - Quote CELESTA AUNGM wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I think denyrevive is terrible, from all standpoints. Why would a human being ever decline a revive? Also, teasing a logi by having him run over, put himself in danger and then refuse is disrespectful. If you want to picked up, you ask for it. As Celesta turns the corner of a building, she is incapacitated by a Sniper. Two blue mercs are nearby, and she can see on her map they are approaching her. The blue mercs want to help her, of course---but they donGÇÖt know how Celesta was dropped by a waiting Sniper who will likely claim one or both of them before they can step out and revive her. Only Celesta knows it was a Sniper. She prefers to stay dead and sacrifice her ONE clone life, rather than toss THREE clone lives away like cheap dice. Besides, only SHE knows where the sniper is, and she prefers to regen somewhere else right away and flank around to sweep him out of his shooting perch. I prefer GÇ£Revive-MeGÇ¥ to be automatically ON all the time, but that the incapacitated player have a brief chance to turn off that blinking icon before GÇ£medicsGÇ¥ even see her as needing assistance. If they picked you up and -1 death, You then have a chance to defend your investment at no cost to yourself. If two logi's go there then both Logi's can pick each other up and force an error from the sniper or give them a chance to defend their isk investment. Giving a simple lazy fix to a Large scale problem such as reviving a clone and it doesn't -1 the death, or make sense in anyway of how you would explain the concept to anyone outside of the game.... Doesn't work. If you have seconds where you are sitting incapacitated you simply can choose a new suit and respawn long before any logistics or needle wearing mercenary will get to you. This is not an issue that needed to be fixed... Not now and not ever. WHY CCP is addressing this is they created a problem with the death screen that disables incapacitated mercenaries ability to defend themselves.... Thus creating a time where the Downed mercenaries client has to load back in... and the aggressor has suffered no lapse of awareness or time in their client updates... Allowing for a perpetual needle spam Abuse on the inexperienced DUST player... It's a massive flaw in game design and has to be fixed as it sheds poor light on the abilities of the entire CCP Shanghai studios. What is being said is that a simplistic fix that helps an individual instead of the proper fix that would help the entire game as a whole, aswell as do nothing but Add to DUST.... instead of a feature that does nothing but take away from the DUST experience for sake of the singular player. Allowing a incapacitated clone that gets revived via Nanite injectors to have -1 death does nothing but add to DUST. Giving extra War points for Mercenaries who finish off Incapacitated clones will do nothing but Add to DUST. Completely rendering the Nanite injector useless except if someone presses a button does nothing but take away from DUST 514 and hurts the general overall game.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 604	Posted - 2014.10.29 22:10:00 - [47] - Quote VikingKong iBUN wrote: I always spam the "pick me up" button when I die anyway, even though it does nothing. I wouldn't mind the change because at least my random button spam will actually have a function. It makes the 'dead guy' symbol flash... If you make it flash, even if you're out in the open, I'm more likely to pick you up instead of the other guy, because not only do you want it, you clearly have balls and will likely be more useful to the team.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2276	Posted - 2014.10.29 22:17:00 - [48] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: KDR is a meta stat. Revive is in game lore. The two are wholey separate. Strongly agree with this. KDR reports on user skill, and if you got beat then all of New Eden needs to know that. Revives is a completely separate issue that affect a shared team-level strategic resource, i.e. # of clones. There is no way these should be confused. Also agree with Rattati on revive-on-request only. Would actually like to see two separate icons: 'Merc Down' and 'Revive Requested'. 'Merc Down' would be a team-wide icon, 'Revive Requested' would be a needler-only icon. Don't like having to put my reticule on a downed target to determine if it's a friendly who has encountered trouble in that location or an enemy who needs to be terminated. PSN: RationalSpark
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 2465	Posted - 2014.10.29 22:26:00 - [49] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Example: You and a red get into a 1v1. He beats you and has earned a K. You have lost and have earned a D. He leaves area and 10 seconds later logibro happens upon you and stabs you. Do you erase that D? Did you really survive that fight? Yes you survived that fight... Your Clone is incapacitated... That does not mean your dead... If that Mercenary really wants to finish you off... Then a couple bullets to the incapacitated clone and your fully dead. Double taping the incapacitated clones should be part of making sure that enemy is truly removed from that area in the battlefield. And should be rewarded for with extra Warpoints. It is done like this in Battlefield for example... But there is little to no lag being picked up and you have a chance to defend yourself... The exchanges that happen as squads struggle to keep each other up and fighting make for truly epic moments in fights. It does this in DUST too and we are penalized for it, not rewarded.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4333	Posted - 2014.10.29 22:49:00 - [50] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Agree with the OP. People need to get over themselves and their precious KDR. Plus, now that they give shield HP back too, there's a lot less instakill. What should be done: - Take the needles off of the medic starter fits - Either a "reject" button or return of the "bleedout" button. (eliminates griefing) The default should be to accept revives, imo. You're the selfish one who doesn't want my needle? Hit the button. Everyone else shouldn't have to. Your loss, though, even on my BPO logi I run ADV needles and much less than 10% of the people I revive die before I rep them to full health (minus the occasional blueberry who runs off like an idiot and gets himself killed... not my problem). do not take the the needle of the medic starter fits...unless your planing on giving it a rep tool instead.. That is correct, it should have a rep tool instead. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Thokk Nightshade KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 627	Posted - 2014.10.29 22:51:00 - [51] - Quote Bethhy wrote: If they picked you up and -1 death, You then have a chance to defend your investment at no cost to yourself. If two logi's go there then both Logi's can pick each other up and force an error from the sniper or give them a chance to defend their isk investment. Giving a simple lazy fix to a Large scale problem such as reviving a clone and it doesn't -1 the death, or make sense in anyway of how you would explain the concept to anyone outside of the game.... Doesn't work. If you have seconds where you are sitting incapacitated you simply can choose a new suit and respawn long before any logistics or needle wearing mercenary will get to you. This is not an issue that needed to be fixed... Not now and not ever. . And while they are doing this, the Sniper has racked up 5-6-7 kills and, if he's in a squad, contributed 250-350 points towards a warbarge. Also, you can complain about people using the kill/revive/kill Farm as a cop out, but there are times when, no matter what you do, you simply do NOT have time to pick a suit and respawn before being picked up. I've had times where I was killed 11 times in a row and then revived before I could respawn. There are people who will q-sync and literally have a friend sit on top of you reviving you with a dirty needle just to be kill farmed. Another possibility, and this happened to me during the Million Clone Challenge. I was in a fight and ran completely out of ammo. It was ambush, so no supply depots, and there were no hives for some weird reason. I was basically no use to the team so I bum rushed a guy and gave him a free kill. Before I could respawn, I had a guy revive me. The guy who killed me got shot, so he couldn't kill me again. I had that happen 3 times in a row where I got myself killed and couldn't respawn because this guy was always right next to me to bring me back. I was of absolutely no use to the team and WANTED to die so I could restock, and I wasn't able to. So I played 4 minutes in an ambush match with no ammo and not able to do anything to help the team. The ONLY WAY I would be willing to agree with you is if there is a 1 time pickup. If a clone is killed, he can be picked up once without request. After the first time, if he dies within "x" seconds, he then must request a revive before being brought back. As for the death/termination, I believe if a death didn't actually count against someone until the clone was terminated, people who care about KDR would be more apt to want to be revived. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1448	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:13:00 - [52] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think denyrevive is terrible, from all standpoints. Why would a human being ever decline a revive? Correction: we are immortal mercenaries, clone soldiers willing to win at all cost having no regard to our current disposable physical body. Hence the oversized weaponry with lethal overheats, hence the flesh corruptive uplink techology... We even have sort-of minibomb in our brain for suicide-respawn purposes. CCP Rattati wrote: Also, teasing a logi by having him run over, put himself in danger and then refuse is disrespectful. If you want to picked up, you ask for it. Well that is a good point. Making logis run for nothing could hurt the enthusiasm. Originally I was in favour of accept/deny model but now I stand for 'ask for help' -model. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9722	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:35:00 - [53] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Lots of people here love their KDRs, right? So suppose you don't get a death counted against your KDR until you are terminated? This would have people wanting to be revived because it wouldn't hurt their KDRs. This is a thing I've been asking for for a long time. I understand why you would think this way, but I disagree. If you get put down, you got killed, no two ways about it. Guy who shot you earned a K, you unfortunately earned a D. Just because you can be revived doesn't mean you can un-ring that bell. I agree with this 100% "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 390	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:38:00 - [54] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Yes you survived that fight.... OK, one more try. Yes, your clone survived. But you as A PLAYER got BEAT. KDR does NOT measure clone death. IT MEASURES PLAYER LOSS. It is a meta stat. You get put down, you got beat by another player, you get a D. K measures how many times you beat another player. D measures how many times other players beat you. Getting beat means another player reduced your clone to zero hp putting you down for the count. Your dead. Getting revived means another player came along to play mommy for you and bailed your ass out. You may get picked up, save your team a clone, and help push back the enemy; these are all good things. But you can never take back the fact you went down; that the other player got one over on you. Believe me I sympathize with your viewpoint. I often argued to myself when I got picked up that I should be spared the D. That way my KDR would be all fluffy bunny pretty with rainbow stickers on it. But then I realized why try and fool myself, it wouldn't be the truth. Truth is a D is a D. AKA - StarVenger
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4490	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:41:00 - [55] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Truth is a D is a D. But you AREN'T DEAD. If you aren't terminated, you didn't die. And to the people arguing meta stats, two points: 1. If you're working with logistics and not losing clones because of it, that should represent in your score, but not penalizing your KDR. This is called teamwork, and you should be praised for it. 2. KDR Isn't really a viable metric of player skill anyways. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9727	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:42:00 - [56] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: KDR is a meta stat. Revive is in game lore. The two are wholey separate. Strongly agree with this. KDR reports on user skill, and if you got beat then all of New Eden needs to know that. Revives is a completely separate issue that affect a shared team-level strategic resource, i.e. # of clones. There is no way these should be confused. Also agree with Rattati on revive-on-request only. Would actually like to see two separate icons: 'Merc Down' and 'Revive Requested'. 'Merc Down' would be a team-wide icon, 'Revive Requested' would be a needler-only icon. Don't like having to put my reticule on a downed target to determine if it's a friendly who has encountered trouble in that location or an enemy who needs to be terminated. This exactly. The Merc Down is interesting. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 915	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:48:00 - [57] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: KDR is a meta stat. Revive is in game lore. The two are wholey separate. Strongly agree with this. KDR reports on user skill, and if you got beat then all of New Eden needs to know that. Revives is a completely separate issue that affect a shared team-level strategic resource, i.e. # of clones. There is no way these should be confused. Also agree with Rattati on revive-on-request only. Would actually like to see two separate icons: 'Merc Down' and 'Revive Requested'. 'Merc Down' would be a team-wide icon, 'Revive Requested' would be a needler-only icon. Don't like having to put my reticule on a downed target to determine if it's a friendly who has encountered trouble in that location or an enemy who needs to be terminated. This exactly. The Merc Down is interesting. My Spidey "Logi" senses already get overwhelmed with the revive icon at times. I can only imagine the chaos when downed mercs and revive requested icons start popping up. I envision a PC from 2001 running IE with pop ups for days. ( . )( . )
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6831	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:53:00 - [58] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Lots of people here love their KDRs, right? So suppose you don't get a death counted against your KDR until you are terminated? This would have people wanting to be revived because it wouldn't hurt their KDRs. This is a thing I've been asking for for a long time. I understand why you would think this way, but I disagree. If you get put down, you got killed, no two ways about it. Guy who shot you earned a K, you unfortunately earned a D. Just because you can be revived doesn't mean you can un-ring that bell. I agree with this 100% I still want an additional 5-10 WP for 'securing' a kill. I.E: Walking up to their downed body and terminating their clone. Important Links: An Argument for Legion Transparency
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1448	Posted - 2014.10.30 00:23:00 - [59] - Quote Declaring my stance on K vs D: When you get that +50 kill, you earn it and down him. The person killed gets downed. If he is picked up by needle, what happens? Should the killer lose his kill? No. If you were downed, you 'earn' a down. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 412	Posted - 2014.10.30 00:57:00 - [60] - Quote The only problem is that death is not synonymous of incapacitated. - I'm not a doctor, but in real life time of death is measured after resuscitation. - It is as obvious as unintentional injuries in some road accidents, switching to accidental killing when patient die in hospital. If you think that the incapacitate someone is tantamount to killing him, well you might as well say that people in a coma are dead.. witch is irrational. I understand that CCP may be afraid that some player may not accept things as they are, but somehow community manage to accept that they are being rewarded for hacking null cannon after 'hack' process is completed - and it is almost the same with incapacitating and killing. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido



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