KDR regardless of personal feeling of the stat is present in every game... Even EVE... People actually take the KD/R in EVE very serious....

please tell me how K/D is actually useful in a team game where different roles are going to have wildly differing KD rates (without being a stat padder).

Nothing you said invalidates my statement that it is a useless metric, and just because everyone else measures it doesn't mean that automatically makes it relevant to the overarching meta behind the game.

KDR adds nothing of value to the game besides a measure of PERSONAL kill efficiency that can be artificially brought up by playing nothing but redline sniper for a month. It's a stat padder metric, nothing more, and a risk-aversion metric.

I stand by my statement that i'd rather have five clueless, but willing to learn newbs on my side than an entire TEAM of KDR fanatics. Because I can teach the newbs to kill risk-averse buttheads with high stats and make them ragequit.

The Metric works in EVE. Where destroyed ISK value versus lost value is something that actually matters... As MAKING ISK requires a complete change in activities and hours of time invested back into the process.

KDR has been used and measured by nearly every major corporation that has had competitive aspirations.. It does actually measure something... Regardless of your person feelings.

Yes there are different classes that alter the range in which your KDR is relevant.. As every player and corporation has known and scales for... A Logi isn't held upto the same statistic need as a Assault slayer... Just like a tanker is held differently to a ground soldier...

This is not new in DUST... Nore any game that has come before or after it... Trying to make KDR irrelevant in a game where losses matter will never make sense but for those who get offended by KDR "Padders"

And Please.. Sit in the redline all day and "Pad" your kills... You will be lucky to kill 100 people in a day... Now explain people with 50-100k+ kills and high KDR?.... FOTM, Tankers, Hackers, Glitchers... Like seriously stop buying into the lame forum propaganda and general sweeping statements like KDR "Padders" in the red-line... Like it has any basis in the reality of everyday gameplay in DUST.


Regardless of what happens or personal feelings, Kills and Deaths are gonna be recorded in DUST. Just like they are in EVE, it will always be a statistic... Adding in mroe statistics? Makes sense... Me Personally would love an Accuracy statistic.. Hit box UI that tells you how many headshots you have made... How many times you shot a guy in the left leg....

Statistics in the long big picture of this IP will help EVE Pilots invest and choose the Mercenaries they will want to invest into. Removing the most simplistic and basic one as recording your kills versus deaths is not a big picture problem.

ISK lost vs ISK destroyed is not KDR.

If your ship costs 700,000 ISK and you get destroyed but the enemy uses 700,500 ISK in ammo to kill it, you have won the ISK war.

ISK killed/lost is a good CORP metric in DUST, but it isn't much more useful on an INDIVIDUAL level because Logis will invariably have the LOWEST and habitual AV will have the highest with assaults and commandos/HMG sentinels being lukewarm at best.

WP/D is the best individual metric because it measures contribution to the team in DUST and is more valuable than either of the above.

Simply going out in EVE to have your killboard be more positive with ISK killed versus ISK lost and basing your opinions on a Pod pilot on that alone is something Goons would do lol.

No, actually, not giving a sh*t about stats on a killboard at all is something Goons would do.

If you think KDR was ever a factor in my decisions about who I was taking into a PC or Corp battle with me you're delusional.

I've taken a mixed bag of neckbeards of various talent plus 5 rank newbies (less than 2 mil SP at the time) into PC matches and won with them because... *GASP* ...people actually followed instructions. they died a lot sure, but damn if the little beggars weren't the most adorable little murder enthusiasts I ever did see.

And the newbees kept the goddamned uplinks off my battlefield as I instructed them to, which allowed me to use an AFG as a suppression weapon to keep red dots OUT OF MY ENTRY AREAS in the Orbital artillery map.

So tell me.

Just how valuable do you think I should believe K/D is?

I consider it valueless because experience playing this game has shown me that it is valueless.

No, actually, not giving a sh*t about stats on a killboard at all is something Goons would do.

If you think KDR was ever a factor in my decisions about who I was taking into a PC or Corp battle with me you're delusional.

I've taken a mixed bag of neckbeards of various talent plus 5 rank newbies (less than 2 mil SP at the time) into PC matches and won with them because... *GASP* ...people actually followed instructions. they died a lot sure, but damn if the little beggars weren't the most adorable little murder enthusiasts I ever did see.

And the newbees kept the goddamned uplinks off my battlefield as I instructed them to, which allowed me to use an AFG as a suppression weapon to keep red dots OUT OF MY ENTRY AREAS in the Orbital artillery map.

So tell me.

Just how valuable do you think I should believe K/D is?

I consider it valueless because experience playing this game has shown me that it is valueless.

Logibro is to heal and revive, just as a heavy is to chase donuts and kill people before they catch it and deny you the sugary goodness, get it?

I'm sorry, back up one minute...

What's a CTA?

Is this something people who give a crap do? Is it seekrit code for "everyone go ratting at 100% tax so we can pretend to provide an SRP?"

Seriously, we don't do CTAs. Ratters can either defend themselves or call for fleet assistance per normal. Most ratters we have can defend themselves. the ones who don't are AFK ratting while their mains are involved with burning down whatever piece of crap space you call home, usually. Or occupying Mordu's Legion missions for the cool profits.

Elite PvP...

You fly out and kill a few ships. We are bad, but we're organized, and we seem to be winning.

TEST alliance please stand up and wave. BOB please make a good showing... oh wait... we kicked you out of your homes.

Sorry about that.

I Was there

I agree with this 100%

So your advice is to basically only have a squad if you want needles to be relevant at all... Or pray that someone will fit a needle when you decide to push a button then patiently wait?

Like seriously?

This does nothing but nerf needles into the ground because the mechanics around the item was setup to abuse players who got picked up because "They have a chance to defend their isk" yet die again regardless of no clone loss.

Lets put aside the fact that this fix makes absolutely no sense. Makes even less sense as you try to explain DUST and how it works to your friend who hasn't played it.... As they look at your weird as you try and profess how much sense it makes.

It doesn't matter what imaginary world the CSM are living in.... The Squad mechanics in DUST for the average mercenary are terrible... Squad finder is like a joke played on the playerbase... The average DUST player will have no hope AT ALL at using these new needle mechanics that are purposed....

It will be something used be veteran players at best and require more communication and team work then is currently exhibited even in the Height of PC... With the largest longest wars in DUST's history with arguably the best FC's and mercs that have played this game. Remember i have been part of PC since it started, have been part of holding distrcits in PC since it started... Im an Urgent Fury Tournament Champion...

The chance of changing the mechanics of this feature to what is purposed... Will somehow bring out tactics and planned use around the item is like planning that there is gonna be rainbows and sunshine for the rest of your existence.

It's extremely un realistic, Makes no sense in any explanation to someone outside of DUST, Takes away from the game of DUST instead of adds to it, Hurts an entire player class(Logi's) and an entire entrance into the game with new players.

Nanite Injector use should be encouraged amoungst new players in DUST, It allows them to contribute to the team while also helping the team and adding to immersion for all parties included.

Remove K/D.

Replace with WP/D.

Suddenly the entire meta of DUST changes.

Too much value is placed on K/D by tryhard corps and because of this the most valuable support roles and the people who are best at them will forever be relegated to crap roles.

Most tryhard corps require a minimum k/d.

I'll take 15 new people willing to learn over a buncha retards who stat pad to protect their e-peen any day.

KDR has no value in a combined arms TEAM game. But entirely too much value is assigned to it.

hyperbole is the new evidence, didn't you know?

Like No f**ks given is the new concern.

5 newbies willing to listen & learn is more valuable than a horde of KDR kiddies.

You know, my favorite "kdr kiddie" would have to be extacy cravings. Taking to him after a PC match "oh man, i need to go play some pubs or my kdr will drop below 9"

EX wasn't the only one like that. I'll take a kdr ***** over since logi any day, because you know were going to win and probably by cloning out the other team

Require more communication and teamwork than is currently exhibited even in the height of PC?

If this statement is true than I should really get back into playing PC consistently, because my average pub squads (which are not composed solely of members from my corp) can consistently use needles to good effect. If we decide to run a tight squad there are usually 2-3 injectors present, a primary with backups for the primary in case he goes down.

Do I think the new mechanics will likely call for some other refinements or changes to truly make them polished? Sure.
But this is hardly a "the sky is falling" moment. Besides, with or without these changes the injector has bigger issues to be addressed. Like the painfully long animation, the "ghost" revive icons, the injection miss fires and the client/server discync which causes injection points to sometimes not even touch the downed body.


I've played Logi since closed beta, I am a dedicated support player to the extent that I was one of those Logi who ran repair tools for my team even when they gave 0 WP for their use. As such I am well aware of how the mechanics work and how many mercs ePeen their way out of revives and how many more will do so with this mechanic.
Which is exactly why it is a buff to cooperative play because all those 'KDR kittens' will be busy bleeding out like civies while players who care about tactics and cooperation will still have the advantages injectors provide.

ps ~ hyperbole is not persuasive

I think denyrevive is terrible, from all standpoints. Why would a human being ever decline a revive? Also, teasing a logi by having him run over, put himself in danger and then refuse is disrespectful.

If you want to picked up, you ask for it.

I'm not following you as not asking = denying a revive.

I guess we'll have to wait for the numbers (PS: where is that mho-thing report staying?)

Your trying to convert a pub squad to PC and Pub tactics to PC... They just don't convert unless your playing inexperienced competitive players.

Clone packs in PC have limited clones compared to the defenders for a reason.. Yet it isn't the Needle or Logi that makes it relevant.. Which was the intent.

In the ultimate forms of competition in DUST from Tournaments to playing PC competition the day it came out to well over a year of play... These changes are un realistic and will kill the use of needles for some hypothetical tactical play and forward communication scenario that wont happen in mass majority through DUST.

Taking a feature widely used throughout all DUST with poor game design around it... Then nerfing and limiting the item to "Fix" it is assbackwards.

Trying to explain away how it will limit, nerf and hurt players in majority for a few people that didn't want to be picked up because of poor game design around the item. Is mind boggling..

Polishing the feature and everything mentioned has been problems since Closed beta in DUST, then further from the Death screen, (Which again makes no sense why it is present when your clone is merely incapacitated.) People have thousands of posts about these issues.

Regardless of how you look at it or what hypothetical situations you think these changes bring amoungst tactics. This Purposed change overall takes away from the game. and adds nothing. This is a big problem and sadly becoming a trend here.

Just. Let. Them. Die.

Bethhy does have a point here, Cross. It is sorta like my whole thing with the "remove the redline" threads. Doing this to needles is really fixing the "wrong" problem.

I use needles quite successfully in FW at least, and I plan to keep at least one fit that still has wiyrkomi's for that purpose alone (otherwise I'm swtiching to scanners ) . I'll tell you right now, the few people who do die quickly after I revive them, a minimum of 75% of the time it's due to technical issues that give time for the enemy to regroup. The room was clear when I hit O the first time, but by the fourth damn time I hit it, and the second time through the animation, it's not anymore.

As for the shotgun kill-revive grieifing, changing the kill screen and speeding up the time it takes for the bleedout or "punish" button to show up would take care of that.

Otherwise, I honestly do see this change in large part to be pandering to the KDR kittens. Which, as I noted before, could still be placated with a bleedout button, leaving the default option as being revivable.

But, we will see. Maybe this will incentivize coordinated play, maybe it won't. Hopefully we won't need to wait for another full patch to change it back if it does really kill needles.

R.I.P. needles, I have had 0 chances to revive anyone yet. Welcome to Scans 514.

Its your fault CCP, we offered better fixes that would add to this game, but instead your funneling logis away from medic roles and forcing us into slayer roles.

I think that requesting revives being required to get picked up is not really the best option