I definitely would prefer an accept/reject revive button, as I've said many times.

Though this is better than doing nothing. The way nanite injectors previously worked is arguably a form of abusive gameplay, because it allowed other players to effectively take control of your character.

Removal of exploitable/griefing mechanic > than retention of lore.

Needlef'ing is an extremely annoying place to find yourself and must be eliminated. It's not the perfect solution and needs iteration but it couldn't be allowed to continue.

We'd like to continue to encourage CCP to change the way deaths are recorded, so being revived does not count against players as a "death", since their clone was not terminated. We'd also like to continue to encourage CCP to implement additional WP for finishing off an incapacitated clone, and a change of the injector mechanic to an accept/reject mechanic so players can decide whether or not to accept a revive if they're under fire or being camped by a griefer.

These are all things on my personal list, at least, and several other CPMs support some or all of these concepts.

I got Needle Spammed just yesterday. Killed, before I could respawn, needle, dead. It happened three times and when the killer got in front of me and I saw that he wasn't moving, the only way out of it was to turn the PS3 off. Getting grinded for kills over and over has nothing to do with "wanting to preserve your KD/R." That is just a very minor thing that I don't think anyone should really care about. Getting Needle Spammed is literally like having a hard lock-up on your system. With that being gone, I cannot complain even if I do have to hit X to Call for Help.

And I can flip the scenario just like you can mate:
"If I want to be raised because I don't need a new suit to help the team, I will ask you for help. Don't just be selfish and wanting to get the WP for raising me in my Scout Uplink suit. Let me come back in the back line so I can call in my Railgun to take out that Blaster Tank."

Basically, the situation is too large in scope to say that not wanting a needle is selfish. Perhaps one of the reasons it is "Call for help" rather than bleed out is that you can technically get needled before the killed by screen pops up. In what happened to me yesterday, someone being fast could keep doing that and low and behold the main problem that was set out to be fixed... wasn't.

I think denyrevive is terrible, from all standpoints. Why would a human being ever decline a revive? Also, teasing a logi by having him run over, put himself in danger and then refuse is disrespectful.

If you want to picked up, you ask for it.

The part I had in quotes was just a strawman, same as saying that is it selfish to not want a needle. Anyone can give any reason for wanting to needle everyone or not wanting to be needled that is "most helpful" to the team. That was what I was getting on about, the view that it is "selfish to not want a needle" when it can be seen just as "selfish" to want to needle someone. Again, when using strawmen or just framing one side as negative and the other as positive.

The scope of the issue is far larger than "selfish", to be honest. I don't see how asking for a needle is all that of a concern. People who would have wanted a needle will ask for it. Those that don't won't get needled. Seems like a situation that works out to me.

Nice troll dude, i got you figured out at locking blueberries who would try to steal my tank or dropship being is actually me being sefish.

But for those more easily duped, i got a proto minmatar logi and all of my equipment is prototype. I like this change, ends the dirty filthy needle spam, a lot of greifing and i dont have to risk my suit and all of the equipment costs that come with it on someone who didnt want a revive in the first place.

As Celesta turns the corner of a building, she is incapacitated by a Sniper. Two blue mercs are nearby, and she can see on her map they are approaching her. The blue mercs want to help her, of course---but they donGÇÖt know how Celesta was dropped by a waiting Sniper who will likely claim one or both of them before they can step out and revive her. Only Celesta knows it was a Sniper. She prefers to stay dead and sacrifice her ONE clone life, rather than toss THREE clone lives away like cheap dice. Besides, only SHE knows where the sniper is, and she prefers to regen somewhere else right away and flank around to sweep him out of his shooting perch.

I prefer GÇ£Revive-MeGÇ¥ to be automatically ON all the time, but that the incapacitated player have a brief chance to turn off that blinking icon before GÇ£medicsGÇ¥ even see her as needing assistance.

Example:

You and a red get into a 1v1.
He beats you and has earned a K.
You have lost and have earned a D.
He leaves area and 10 seconds later logibro happens upon you and stabs you.
Do you erase that D? Did you really survive that fight?

I agree with this 100%

If you don't care about the D, then why the argument. It seems that the core concept in EVE is ISK, death matters. If you are revived, you don't lose the ISK. That is the key thing many strive for and fits perfectly with the lore aspect.

You sound like the type of guy.... that would go around sticking people with a militia needle...

I love this change. Sure, there will be a small drop in the number of revive opportunities, but those who do request help will be fully committed to the process. In my opinion, this is an extremely fair resolution.

^This.

The change will essentially "buff teamwork."

As fewer and fewer mercs call for revives due to a erroneous fascination with KDR/epeen
the merc who are focused on the win and even more so those who are actively in squads
will hold a larger mechanical advantage than they already do.

The net effect of this change is that a coordinated squad (and to a much lessor extent even a team
oriented solo player) will hold more effective value on the field than they do at present.

My advice is to squad quickly, squad often, and squad with folks who understand teamwork
and that includes the tactical value of being revived. Those who do not are likely to face
consistently harder matches in the days to come.

0.02 ISK
Cross

It's all about choice. You guys that are against it I don't understand. If I can clearly see that I died, and was too far behind enemy lines I'm not going to request assistance. Some guys will pick you up for their own warpoints knowing full well they have not secured a successful rez by killing the enemy in the area. Is that not the same thing as guys who covet their kd? There are some logi wh*re's in this game that will rep you with bs rep tools, rez you with sh!t needles, and will bring militia nanohives to a gun fight for the points and isk?! I don't want some amateur rezzing me and getting me isnta-killed multiple times?! I should be able to make that choice. If I equip a needle, and no request help cool. I die less trying to get there.

Same goes for vehicle locks. There should be an option to lock and unlock vehicles at will. Simple.

I am pro choice when it comes to this game. Things that force me to play a certain way is why I don't play other games. I shouldn't be forced to get picked up in sh!tty situations because some novice is running the medic starter fit?! I shouldn't be forced to deal with some academy graduate riding around in my tank because I can't kick him.

I don't know why logis with absolutely no intention of shooting anyone want to pick guys up anyway?! Something killed that guy, and there's a good chance he still around. That's why I run my needle on commandos and assaults. So I can eliminate the threat then protect my teammate once I rez him. I'm rocking 600-1100 ehp on those dropsuits. Not 400 or less?! If you're not gonna shoot don't rock needles!

I Have been a Logi for well over a year in this game. I usually pull crazy war points in any match I play, whether it's a squad or just solo running Logi and supporting who ever is in front of me.

One thing I have learned as running as purely support(Not a slayer) for well over a year of playing this class.

Logistics facilitate fun and memorable moments in DUST 514.

Whether it is that fire fight stalemate that one side progresses and slowly overcomes, Or the Nanite injector scramble... as logi's on opposite sides try and keep people picked up, repaired and ammoed up to break a gunfire stalemate between two sides.

The best times I have had playing DUST are when Support and Logi's actually work, it adds an element to this game that nothing else can or does... It creates memorable moments that i can recall a year later and bring up in conversations with friends who where there...

These needle changes that are purposed will do nothing but hurt my entire class that I am passionate about. This isn't about an elitists idea of not wanting a to be picked up, it's about the team and playing at all costs for the win. I have won at least 50+ Ambushes because of picking up everyone I can, keeping them repaired and nanohives down, I have received a many of Eve-mails from players appreciating the work and the fact that a well supported team can beat entire squads of "Elite" Corporations.

Most often i get 1-2 hours a day max that I can engage in recreation, as working and paying taxes become more of my responsibility, I only have a few hours to play in the best case scenario and often don't have time to get on DUST and spend 20mins-1hour+ looking for a squad that communicates with Mic's and are onboard to pushing a revive button and then waiting for me to get to them.

The mere idea that you can subject the entire player base(Who are mostly casual) to this giant nerf on needles and team gameplay for the sake of a broken mechanic that everyone has known about for almost 2 years? Seems surreal... Why would you screw everyone over for the sake of a few? Why not just let everyone benefit for an amazing game mechanic and the situations it will create, rather then learning to loathe and hate the nerf that they gave the item(For the umpteenth time) That never needed to happen.

Please think of the big picture and what each scenario actually adds to the game of DUST 514, Rattati.

Remove K/D.

Replace with WP/D.

Suddenly the entire meta of DUST changes.

Too much value is placed on K/D by tryhard corps and because of this the most valuable support roles and the people who are best at them will forever be relegated to crap roles.

Most tryhard corps require a minimum k/d.

I'll take 15 new people willing to learn over a buncha retards who stat pad to protect their e-peen any day.

KDR has no value in a combined arms TEAM game. But entirely too much value is assigned to it.

please tell me how K/D is actually useful in a team game where different roles are going to have wildly differing KD rates (without being a stat padder).

Nothing you said invalidates my statement that it is a useless metric, and just because everyone else measures it doesn't mean that automatically makes it relevant to the overarching meta behind the game.

KDR adds nothing of value to the game besides a measure of PERSONAL kill efficiency that can be artificially brought up by playing nothing but redline sniper for a month. It's a stat padder metric, nothing more, and a risk-aversion metric.

I stand by my statement that i'd rather have five clueless, but willing to learn newbs on my side than an entire TEAM of KDR fanatics. Because I can teach the newbs to kill risk-averse buttheads with high stats and make them ragequit.

ISK lost vs ISK destroyed is not KDR.

If your ship costs 700,000 ISK and you get destroyed but the enemy uses 700,500 ISK in ammo to kill it, you have won the ISK war.

ISK killed/lost is a good CORP metric in DUST, but it isn't much more useful on an INDIVIDUAL level because Logis will invariably have the LOWEST and habitual AV will have the highest with assaults and commandos/HMG sentinels being lukewarm at best.

WP/D is the best individual metric because it measures contribution to the team in DUST and is more valuable than either of the above.

No, actually, not giving a sh*t about stats on a killboard at all is something Goons would do.

If you think KDR was ever a factor in my decisions about who I was taking into a PC or Corp battle with me you're delusional.

I've taken a mixed bag of neckbeards of various talent plus 5 rank newbies (less than 2 mil SP at the time) into PC matches and won with them because... *GASP* ...people actually followed instructions. they died a lot sure, but damn if the little beggars weren't the most adorable little murder enthusiasts I ever did see.

And the newbees kept the goddamned uplinks off my battlefield as I instructed them to, which allowed me to use an AFG as a suppression weapon to keep red dots OUT OF MY ENTRY AREAS in the Orbital artillery map.

So tell me.

Just how valuable do you think I should believe K/D is?

I consider it valueless because experience playing this game has shown me that it is valueless.

I'm sorry, back up one minute...

What's a CTA?

Is this something people who give a crap do? Is it seekrit code for "everyone go ratting at 100% tax so we can pretend to provide an SRP?"

Seriously, we don't do CTAs. Ratters can either defend themselves or call for fleet assistance per normal. Most ratters we have can defend themselves. the ones who don't are AFK ratting while their mains are involved with burning down whatever piece of crap space you call home, usually. Or occupying Mordu's Legion missions for the cool profits.

Elite PvP...

You fly out and kill a few ships. We are bad, but we're organized, and we seem to be winning.

TEST alliance please stand up and wave. BOB please make a good showing... oh wait... we kicked you out of your homes.

Sorry about that.

Require more communication and teamwork than is currently exhibited even in the height of PC?

If this statement is true than I should really get back into playing PC consistently, because my average pub squads (which are not composed solely of members from my corp) can consistently use needles to good effect. If we decide to run a tight squad there are usually 2-3 injectors present, a primary with backups for the primary in case he goes down.

Do I think the new mechanics will likely call for some other refinements or changes to truly make them polished? Sure.
But this is hardly a "the sky is falling" moment. Besides, with or without these changes the injector has bigger issues to be addressed. Like the painfully long animation, the "ghost" revive icons, the injection miss fires and the client/server discync which causes injection points to sometimes not even touch the downed body.


I've played Logi since closed beta, I am a dedicated support player to the extent that I was one of those Logi who ran repair tools for my team even when they gave 0 WP for their use. As such I am well aware of how the mechanics work and how many mercs ePeen their way out of revives and how many more will do so with this mechanic.
Which is exactly why it is a buff to cooperative play because all those 'KDR kittens' will be busy bleeding out like civies while players who care about tactics and cooperation will still have the advantages injectors provide.

ps ~ hyperbole is not persuasive

Oh the REASONS for the thing are valid. The idiocy of how most revives happen is truly some straight up special education crap right there.

Arguing KDR as having value other than for ego stroking is the long and short of my problem here.

As fun as it was to make people scream, needlef*cking needed to get dumped. Off to find the next broken mechanics to bring to CCP's attention.

Getting the game fixed one mad pubbie at a time.

needle change already effected the game negativly.. alot more matches are lost due to being cloned out cause noobs dont press X soon as they drop.