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Remove explosive resistance from Heavies.

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KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 616	Posted - 2014.09.18 21:48:00 - [1] - Quote Remove explosive resistance from Heavies.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2835	Posted - 2014.09.18 22:12:00 - [2] - Quote Why?
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 616	Posted - 2014.09.18 22:50:00 - [3] - Quote Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers.
hfderrtgvcd 422	Posted - 2014.09.18 23:10:00 - [4] - Quote The resistance only applies to splash damage, so if you hit them with a direct shot it will do full damage. It shouldn't be too hard considering their massive hitboxes. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2836	Posted - 2014.09.18 23:27:00 - [5] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: The resistance only applies to splash damage, so if you hit them with a direct shot it will do full damage. It shouldn't be too hard considering their massive hitboxes. pretty much this. Fatties are slow and easy to hit. Kinda like the plasma cannon vs. a heavy. either you instapop the heavy or he annihilates you while you reload.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13327	Posted - 2014.09.18 23:33:00 - [6] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. Amarr and Gallente should really be the only races with a Sentinel bonus to Explosives. Amarr bonus being Primary Explosives Resistance, Minor Projectile Damage Bonus Gallente being Primary Hybrid-Rail, Minor Explosives. I mean Explosives Resistance is actually the highest resistance value Amarrian Armour vessels have @ T2. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 311	Posted - 2014.09.18 23:56:00 - [7] - Quote Sounds like some 1 survived a RE, turned around and insta blapped your face with a burst HMG. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2839	Posted - 2014.09.19 00:03:00 - [8] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Sounds like some 1 survived a RE, turned around and insta blapped your face with a burst HMG. Not even a proto bricktanked sentinel survives anything but basic RE. with a sliver of health left.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2839	Posted - 2014.09.19 00:05:00 - [9] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. Amarr and Gallente should really be the only races with a Sentinel bonus to Explosives. Amarr bonus being Primary Explosives Resistance, Minor Projectile Damage Bonus Gallente being Primary Hybrid-Rail, Minor Explosives. I mean Explosives Resistance is actually the highest resistance value Amarrian Armour vessels have @ T2. it's splash resistance, not explosive resistance. All sentinels have this feature, because they're so pitifully easy to catch in AoE hits. Look at the RE spam for proof of just HOW easy it is.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7592	Posted - 2014.09.19 00:07:00 - [10] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. Amarr and Gallente should really be the only races with a Sentinel bonus to Explosives. Amarr bonus being Primary Explosives Resistance, Minor Projectile Damage Bonus Gallente being Primary Hybrid-Rail, Minor Explosives. I mean Explosives Resistance is actually the highest resistance value Amarrian Armour vessels have @ T2. But that would mean that you're using...Gasp Lore to balance this game! How dare you! You know how many console player forum trash would lose their **** if they knew you wanted to base this game on ideals that work perfectly fine in another game with similar defense mechanics.... Shame on you! Poor humor aside this is a fantastic idea. CCP Needs to get away from the extremely lazy idea of giving blanket bonuses for everything. Sure there can be the same bonuses but there are some blanket bonuses in the game that just shouldn't have been for everybody for the sake of balance. The previous Assault Bonus for example, really only benefited shield suits. (inb4 "that helps armor suits too" No, not as much as it did shields) The other bonus Is the overall reload speed, I feel that's great for Gallente and Caldari but I feel there could be something better for Minmatar and Amarr. The last is the one you mentioned is and that's the unfair bonus to explosives with shield Sentinels as well, this is very similar to the Problem of the Logistics LAV from a long time ago. For those that do not know the Logistics LAV have a huge Damage Resistance value which made it extremely hard for AV to kill them. Keep in mind that AV back then was mostly just explosives so that meant that shield LLAVs were godly and could rarely be taken down. Sorry for the rambling but I was just trying to prove a point. Blanket Bonuses rarely work for all suits common bonuses sure, that's fine but Blanket bonuses are not good for balance. Something's wrong when you regret Things that haven't happened yet

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13329	Posted - 2014.09.19 00:11:00 - [11] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. Amarr and Gallente should really be the only races with a Sentinel bonus to Explosives. Amarr bonus being Primary Explosives Resistance, Minor Projectile Damage Bonus Gallente being Primary Hybrid-Rail, Minor Explosives. I mean Explosives Resistance is actually the highest resistance value Amarrian Armour vessels have @ T2. But that would mean that you're using...Gasp Lore to balance this game! How dare you! You know how many console player forum trash would lose their **** if they knew you wanted to base this game on ideals that work perfectly fine in another game with similar defence mechanics.... Shame on you! I feel ashamed of myself....... kicks a can into the curb "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires"* -Kador Ouryon
Michael Arck 5617	Posted - 2014.09.19 00:54:00 - [12] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. LOL! No. Sentinels are designed to take on heavier firepower and resistance to the explosives...cause that's what Sentinels/Heavies are. It's even in the description in game. Sentinels are point pushers and point defenders, they are more frontline than the assault and for that reason they should not have their resistance to explosives removed. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 620	Posted - 2014.09.19 01:22:00 - [13] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. LOL! No. Sentinels are designed to take on heavier firepower and resistance to the explosives...cause that's what Sentinels/Heavies are. It's even in the description in game. Sentinels are point pushers and point defenders, they are more frontline than the assault and for that reason they should not have their resistance to explosives removed. ...What unit in a game of skirmish ISN'T pushing a point or defending a point? And what bearing does the description have on pragmatic balancing? Splash is the PRIMARY mode of damage for the mass driver, direct hits are very hard to land against even a slow moving target (if the MD were easy to use, everyone would be using it). It's ridiculous to empty a whole clip of MD rounds onto a heavy and he only ends up halfway through armor. What other weapon has this disadvantage against heavies?
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13329	Posted - 2014.09.19 01:29:00 - [14] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Michael Arck wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. LOL! No. Sentinels are designed to take on heavier firepower and resistance to the explosives...cause that's what Sentinels/Heavies are. It's even in the description in game. Sentinels are point pushers and point defenders, they are more frontline than the assault and for that reason they should not have their resistance to explosives removed. ...What unit in a game of skirmish ISN'T pushing a point or defending a point? And what bearing does the description have on pragmatic balancing? Splash is the PRIMARY mode of damage for the mass driver, direct hits are very hard to land against even a slow moving target (if the MD were easy to use, everyone would be using it). It's ridiculous to empty a whole clip of MD rounds onto a heavy and he only ends up halfway through armor. What other weapon has this disadvantage against heavies? Not sure it matters to be honest. As I said before in actuality only the Amarr and Gallente should have higher than normal explosives damage resistance profiles as contrary to popular belief Amarr and Gallente resist explosive damage very well. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y Dark Taboo 218	Posted - 2014.09.19 05:28:00 - [15] - Quote Remove remotes and shotguns from the game. G.L.O.R.Y solider, Master of the Heavy (Amarr & Gallente)
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 936	Posted - 2014.09.19 06:04:00 - [16] - Quote No. RE scout detected. Please support fair play!
Aria Gomes The dyst0pian Corporation 525	Posted - 2014.09.19 08:01:00 - [17] - Quote I'd rather be able to detonate my REs right as I die than take away the explosive resistance
Vicious Minotaur 1137	Posted - 2014.09.19 08:03:00 - [18] - Quote Yes. Why not take it a step further and remove ALL resistances instead of just Explosive? And, you know, replace them with something less lame? Resistances are badly implemented and are completely at odds with the ways that bonuses effect the other classes. The Sentinel is the only class which receives class AND racial bonuses that are completely passive and indifferent to ALL fittings. But on all other classes, you have certain equipment requirements in order to take advantage of your bonuses: Logis need equipment, and a specific racial one. Scouts need to equip Cloaks, and have a passive bonus (that causes issues, and needs to be addressed) Commandos need to equip light weapons, and a specific racial one Assaults need specific light weapons *Sentinels don't need a damn thing, cause they are the ONLY class with pure passive bonuses Why are Sentinels the only class completely immune to fitting restrictions placed on bonuses? I don't know. And CCP probably does not know either. So yeah. Remove explosive resistance, and while you are at it, remove the rest. I'd make this into a separate thread, but most Sentinels seem to be content with the lame, boring status quo. P.S. Chromosome Heavy veteran, if anybody cares [nobody does] I am a minotaur.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 624	Posted - 2014.09.19 19:45:00 - [19] - Quote Aria Gomes wrote: I'd rather be able to detonate my REs right as I die than take away the explosive resistance Thank you for your noble sacrifice.
Hector Carson Hellz Gate of Awakening 18	Posted - 2014.09.20 00:49:00 - [20] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Remove explosive resistance from Heavies. I am a Heavy user, and I do have to kind of agree with you, they get a lot of armor and shields its only fair that they don't need a buff against explosives, so yes I do agree But honestly explosive resistance against RE's is pointless cause you die instantly if your too close A Corp free of conflict HGoA Ticker: 42014

CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1465	Posted - 2014.09.20 07:36:00 - [21] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. so why are you shooting at a heavy with a mass driver? KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2899	Posted - 2014.09.20 07:44:00 - [22] - Quote OMG nerf heavies... Again. Heavies die pretty easy if you dont engage them at point blank range. Scouts farm us for war points. RE are instakill even on an overtanked suit. Main guns are either useless in CQC or at ranges longer than spitball launchers. Slow, huge hitbox, impossible to miss. Has no scanning ability unless an ally is spotting for them. Without resistances heavies lasted what, slightly longer than a caldari assault under MD fire. The splash resistance was implemented to make it harder to farm sentinels. There is no explosive rwsistance. If you direct hit a heavy with a mass driver or a flaylock he takes full effect. The only Resistances are to splash and projectiles. There is no "explosive resistance" on sentinel suits.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1174	Posted - 2014.09.20 09:21:00 - [23] - Quote i've learned heavies of all races are weak to the bolt pistol. The more you know Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2903	Posted - 2014.09.20 09:25:00 - [24] - Quote If anyone is confused on how sentinel resistances actually work I will be happy to break it down shotgun style. It's not a resistance to explosives at all. You can ignore that particular resistance and bypass it.completely with direct hits.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 630	Posted - 2014.09.22 07:29:00 - [25] - Quote Again: 1) Splash is the PRIMARY mode of damage for the mass driver. 2) No other dropsuit in the game has such a high resistance to ANY other weapon type. Instead of one or two dropsuits being resistant to explosive splash damage, all dropsuits in an entire class are resistant by 25%, instead of the usual 10-15% race specific bonus. It's unbalanced.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2951	Posted - 2014.09.22 07:48:00 - [26] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Again: 1) Splash is the PRIMARY mode of damage for the mass driver. 2) No other dropsuit in the game has such a high resistance to ANY other weapon type. Instead of one or two dropsuits being resistant to explosive splash damage, all dropsuits in an entire class are resistant by 25%, instead of the usual 10-15% race specific bonus. It's unbalanced. Actually if there were more classes of heavy than "bricktank" and "not quite assault" they would be fine because people would opt for other fits. It's the lack of choices other tthan "bricktank, more bricktank and yet more bricktank" that make the sentinel a pain in the ass. Unfortunately the heavy frames are piles of crap because they are too damn squishy. The lack of the resistance makes them horrific to use because mass drivers basically instapop you. Plasma splash is similarly bad. This could be compensated for if the suits had other bonuses but I do not see that happening any time soon. Maybe we should be looking for variant suits. Come to think about it, if there were variants on assault and logi I might bother with them, or scouts. The mass driver and flaylock were the exact reason that sentinels were given splash resists.
Espeon Bons Bloodline Rebellion Public.Disorder. 258	Posted - 2014.09.22 08:15:00 - [27] - Quote Bump Follow your bliss!
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 4653	Posted - 2014.09.22 12:14:00 - [28] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. LOL! No. Sentinels are designed to take on heavier firepower and resistance to the explosives...cause that's what Sentinels/Heavies are. It's even in the description in game. Sentinels are point pushers and point defenders, they are more frontline than the assault and for that reason they should not have their resistance to explosives removed. I disagree, I think there should be something besides a scout with RE to clear a logi/heavy train. If anything just knock it down a bit. The splash resist is crazy good currently. Level 4 Forum Warrior PSN: wbrom42
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 130	Posted - 2014.09.22 14:51:00 - [29] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Again: 1) Splash is the PRIMARY mode of damage for the mass driver. 2) No other dropsuit in the game has such a high resistance to ANY other weapon type. Instead of one or two dropsuits being resistant to explosive splash damage, all dropsuits in an entire class are resistant by 25%, instead of the usual 10-15% race specific bonus. It's unbalanced. Heavies were way too easy before. How are you using the MD? Are you maintaining range whenever possible, using its long range with no damage reduction out to maximum range to full advantage? Are you using its superb accuracy out to maximum range (once you get used to the arc and aiming/ranging with the bottom of the hip fire reticule)? Are you using corners to fall back, while inflicting damage to the advancing heavy, whenever you meet a heavy up close? IMHO, the mass driver has never been as well balanced as it is right now. The Exo-5 is my primary weapon; usually with no secondary weapon on my logi suit. I'm much less likely to survive a 1v1 with a shotgun scout than a 1v1 with a heavy. Heavies are still fairly easy to deal with unless you stumble on one without any corners to retreat around. In any other circumstance, I have a range and mobility advantage to leverage against any heavies I come across. Even in close quarters, if I have corners to retreat around, I can constantly splash an approaching heavy, without giving him direct line of sight long enough for him to waste me. Use the mass driver's slow travel time to your advantage. You get to fire at the ground ahead of him while he pushes around the corner, while you retreat around the corner, at the same time backing up to the next corner you'll be using for cover. You can kill them without them ever getting direct line of sight, without them ever getting a shot on you. The only heavies that give me trouble in close are just better players than me, or average heavies with burst HMGs, so even a moment of exposure or lag gets me killed. If you told me I had to duel someone and I had to use the mass driver and I got to chose their suit, I'd put them in a heavy suit. The one huge weakness (every weapon should have one) is running out of ammo when using the MD. The nerf to nanohive clusters was a bigger MD nerf than buffing heavy splash resistance. Mass drivers and heavies are very well balanced IMHO. If scouts were just a little bit slower or squishier, the class/weapon balance in this game would be outstanding. I'd love to see hard data, since the above is just my sense of things. I'd love to see weekly kills/deaths/isk destroyed, broken down by suits/weapons.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2960	Posted - 2014.09.22 15:07:00 - [30] - Quote I'm not quoting that last post. It may be a wall of text, but it was a good wall of text.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 635	Posted - 2014.09.22 21:40:00 - [31] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Again: 1) Splash is the PRIMARY mode of damage for the mass driver. 2) No other dropsuit in the game has such a high resistance to ANY other weapon type. Instead of one or two dropsuits being resistant to explosive splash damage, all dropsuits in an entire class are resistant by 25%, instead of the usual 10-15% race specific bonus. It's unbalanced. Heavies were way too easy before. How are you using the MD? Are you maintaining range whenever possible, using its long range with no damage reduction out to maximum range to full advantage? Are you using its superb accuracy out to maximum range (once you get used to the arc and aiming/ranging with the bottom of the hip fire reticule)? Are you using corners to fall back, while inflicting damage to the advancing heavy, whenever you meet a heavy up close? IMHO, the mass driver has never been as well balanced as it is right now. The Exo-5 is my primary weapon; usually with no secondary weapon on my logi suit. I'm much less likely to survive a 1v1 with a shotgun scout than a 1v1 with a heavy. Heavies are still fairly easy to deal with unless you stumble on one without any corners to retreat around. In any other circumstance, I have a range and mobility advantage to leverage against any heavies I come across. Even in close quarters, if I have corners to retreat around, I can constantly splash an approaching heavy, without giving him direct line of sight long enough for him to waste me. Use the mass driver's slow travel time to your advantage. You get to fire at the ground ahead of him while he pushes around the corner, while you retreat around the corner, at the same time backing up to the next corner you'll be using for cover. You can kill them without them ever getting direct line of sight, without them ever getting a shot on you. The only heavies that give me trouble in close are just better players than me, or average heavies with burst HMGs, so even a moment of exposure or lag gets me killed. If you told me I had to duel someone and I had to use the mass driver and I got to chose their suit, I'd put them in a heavy suit. The one huge weakness (every weapon should have one) is running out of ammo when using the MD. The nerf to nanohive clusters was a bigger MD nerf than buffing heavy splash resistance. Mass drivers and heavies are very well balanced IMHO. If scouts were just a little bit slower or squishier, the class/weapon balance in this game would be outstanding. I'd love to see hard data, since the above is just my sense of things. I'd love to see weekly kills/deaths/isk destroyed, broken down by suits/weapons. C'mon dude, your argument against this nerf boils down to "Don't be Seen", in a game where being seen for 1 second by a good rifle/hmg user means DEATH. A smart heavy will begin advancing out of cover to a position where you can't have any cover as soon as the first MD round lands, he's not going to be hugging corners. Splash him with an entire clip, even after a flux(for armor builds), he'll be getting a bead on you while you're fumbling with reload. Can I win against a bad heavy that doesn't know how to play? Yep. But with the people I squad with, and the people I play against, I'm not playing against bad heavies. As a long time mass driver user, the weapon certainly isn't balanced right now, and it sure as hell isn't balanced against a unit with 25% resistance (on top of shield resistance).
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 757	Posted - 2014.09.22 22:04:00 - [32] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Again: 1) Splash is the PRIMARY mode of damage for the mass driver. 2) No other dropsuit in the game has such a high resistance to ANY other weapon type. Instead of one or two dropsuits being resistant to explosive splash damage, all dropsuits in an entire class are resistant by 25%, instead of the usual 10-15% race specific bonus. It's unbalanced. Actually if there were more classes of heavy than "bricktank" and "not quite assault" they would be fine because people would opt for other fits. It's the lack of choices other tthan "bricktank, more bricktank and yet more bricktank" that make the sentinel a pain in the ass. Unfortunately the heavy frames are piles of crap because they are too damn squishy. The lack of the resistance makes them horrific to use because mass drivers basically instapop you. Plasma splash is similarly bad. This could be compensated for if the suits had other bonuses but I do not see that happening any time soon. Maybe we should be looking for variant suits. Come to think about it, if there were variants on assault and logi I might bother with them, or scouts. The mass driver and flaylock were the exact reason that sentinels were given splash resists. When was the last time a MD insta popped anyone since Shield extenders were buffed and MD prof lost all effect against shields? Nothing but scouts, but tanking scouts still beat you 1 v 1 with a shotgun, and cloaked scouts kill you before you fire a single shot.
Michael Arck 5705	Posted - 2014.09.22 22:24:00 - [33] - Quote Okay it just seems that some want the sentinels to be a joke suit. If you remove splash damage then you will further turn sentinels or heavies, into a instagank situation. Like people have mentioned Sentinels are basically a done deal if you're not in CQC or facing a RE. The splash resistance makes sense for their point defender roles. Cause isnt that what we do now? Just spam MD shots into a sentinel guarded objective? The sentinel has been hacked far enough. Any further and you turn them into paper mache. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 131	Posted - 2014.09.23 13:55:00 - [34] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: How are you using the MD? Are you maintaining range whenever possible, using its long range with no damage reduction out to maximum range to full advantage? Are you using its superb accuracy out to maximum range (once you get used to the arc and aiming/ranging with the bottom of the hip fire reticule)? Are you using corners to fall back, while inflicting damage to the advancing heavy, whenever you meet a heavy up close? C'mon dude, your argument against this nerf boils down to "Don't be Seen", in a game where being seen for 1 second by a good rifle/hmg user means DEATH. A smart heavy will begin advancing out of cover to a position where you can't have any cover as soon as the first MD round lands, he's not going to be hugging corners. Splash him with an entire clip, even after a flux(for armor builds), he'll be getting a bead on you while you're fumbling with reload. Bolded above for emphasis. If you're standing in full view of a heavy for 1 full second, no weapon can save you. Can't you back around a corner when you get surprised by a heave in about a quarter of a second? That's why the burst HMG is so devestating; against a burst I entirely agree with you. Even pulling back as fast as my reflexes and lag allows, I frequently get toasted by a burst HMG, but against other HMGs, I more frequently than not can break contact when surprised by a heavy. And that's as a brick tanked, kind of slow logi. Heavies are the only suits I can outmaneuver, IF they aren't running KinCats. Are you having a different experience with breaking initial contact when surprised by a heavy? How are you approaching corners? I asked you the questions quoted above, not to be rhetorical, but to genuinely inquire. I guess a more general way of putting some of those questions: On average, how far does a round from your mass driver travel before it hits something? If its less than a third of your maximum range, can we agree that you're not taking full advantage of your ability to out range an HMG's damage? Does your playstyle with the MD more closely resemble a shotgunner or a sniper, if we consider those two roles as the extremes on a continuum?
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 131	Posted - 2014.09.23 14:09:00 - [35] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Okay it just seems that some want the sentinels to be a joke suit. If you remove splash damage then you will further turn sentinels or heavies, into a instagank situation. Not really a specific response to you Michael, but I think the OP's point could be more persuasively made, if instead of just flat out nerfing heavies, he proposed a tradeoff. For example, how many heavies would take advantage if CCP offered a heavy suit variant that traded the splash damage resistance for 25% or 30% resistance to shotgun damage? If you've got an uplink inside a building where distant MD users don't have a good shot on you, you're probably more worried about a SG scout shooting you, uncloaking, and shooting you again. Instead of posting "let's nerf heavies" I think a much more interesting discussion could be had by asking heavies how much shot gun damage resistance they'd need to voluntarily give up their splash damage resistance. I suppose remotes would still be a huge problem... I generally have the sense that the mass driver's arc, slow ttk, and ammo inefficiency keep it rare enough that its not anywhere near the leading cause of heavy deaths. I certainly wouldn't complain if it got a slight buff. But I remember the days of the OP mass driver and slayer logis, and the subsequent nerf. Its good enough right now that I don't want CCP to mess it up by putting it back on the buff/nerf roller coaster track.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3361	Posted - 2014.09.23 14:18:00 - [36] - Quote I'd be OK with removing that bonus if in its place you put a headshot damage resistance. That way my sentinel isn't being constantly OHK'd by charge rifles post-Delta. SP Sinks? Fixed.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 131	Posted - 2014.09.23 14:33:00 - [37] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: I'd be OK with removing that bonus if in its place you put a headshot damage resistance. That way my sentinel isn't being constantly OHK'd by charge rifles post-Delta. There you go, that's much closer to the kind of proposal I think CCP would take seriously. What kind of numbers would that require? How much health should you have left after a charged sniper head shots you, in the new-and-improved sentinel with headshot resistance? Should a follow up shot to the body be able to finish you off? A head shot followed by two body shots?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3056	Posted - 2014.09.23 17:01:00 - [38] - Quote I would rather see the sentinel role broken into three suits, one a door kicker, one AV and the current suit for hard defense. Just for the joy of not seeing the same BS fatty meta over and over and over and ad nauseum
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3361	Posted - 2014.09.23 17:08:00 - [39] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I would rather see the sentinel role broken into three suits, one a door kicker, one AV and the current suit for hard defense. Sentinel - dropsuits as we see them now. Resistance bonuses to racial enemy damage types, splash resistance, very high eHP. Losses grenade slot. Headshots less effective on this dropsuit class. Vanguard - Less eHP than a sentinel, but more than an assault. Slightly faster walk/sprint speed than a sentinel. Bonuses with racial heavy weaponry. No resistance bonuses. Maintains grenade slot. Headshots just as effective. Both still wield heavy weapons. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3058	Posted - 2014.09.23 18:01:00 - [40] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I would rather see the sentinel role broken into three suits, one a door kicker, one AV and the current suit for hard defense. Sentinel - dropsuits as we see them now. Resistance bonuses to racial enemy damage types, splash resistance, very high eHP. Loses grenade slot. Headshots less effective on this dropsuit class. Vanguard - Less eHP than a sentinel, but more than an assault. Slightly faster walk/sprint speed than a sentinel. Bonuses with racial heavy weaponry. Loses resistance bonuses. Maintains grenade slot. Headshots just as effective. Both still wield heavy weapons. The FG and plasma mortor were intended to be AV weapons. The Vanguard dropsuit can be given bonuses with these weapons and become the AV dropsuit. Something similar to that yes. But keeping the current sentinel in entire. One suit attack focused. One AV. I'm waffling between wanting an attack sentinel or a detector sentinel that is basically a radar b*tch.

Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3363	Posted - 2014.09.23 19:05:00 - [41] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Something similar to that yes. But keeping the current sentinel in entire. One suit attack focused. One AV. I'm waffling between wanting an attack sentinel or a detector sentinel that is basically a radar b*tch. EWAR sentinel doesn't make any sense. EWAR is a Scout (major), Logi (minor) role specialty. If "tanky" sentinels aren't given some sturdy bonuses then they will not be chosen over the "DPS" sentinels (aka vanguards). He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3060	Posted - 2014.09.23 19:13:00 - [42] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Something similar to that yes. But keeping the current sentinel in entire. One suit attack focused. One AV. I'm waffling between wanting an attack sentinel or a detector sentinel that is basically a radar btch. EWAR sentinel doesn't make any sense. EWAR is a Scout (major), Logi (minor) role specialty. If "tanky" sentinels aren't given some sturdy bonuses then they will not be chosen over the "DPS" sentinels (aka vanguards). Radar isn't EWAR. EWAR doesn't actually EXIST in DUST.A sentinel detector makes a lot more sense than a blind btch who gets ganked in the back by everyone and their brother because he doesn't see radar blips unless they are literally right on top of him (in shotgun optimal). A sentinel needs to be able to see incoming to defend points. I never hang out in static locations because everyone with sensors that work immediately run off to the next point.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3363	Posted - 2014.09.23 19:25:00 - [43] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Radar isn't EWAR. EWAR doesn't actually EXIST in DUST.A sentinel detector makes a lot more sense than a blind b*tch who gets ganked in the back by everyone and their brother because he doesn't see radar blips unless they are literally right on top of him (in shotgun optimal). A sentinel needs to be able to see incoming to defend points. I never hang out in static locations because everyone with sensors that work immediately run off to the next point. Sentinels are balanced around the idea that they need scouts/logis to support their weak passive sensors. Imagine a dropsuits with resistances, incredible anti-infantry weaponry, high eHP, AND above average sensor strength... it would be OP, to say the least. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 638	Posted - 2014.09.23 20:55:00 - [44] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: How are you using the MD? Are you maintaining range whenever possible, using its long range with no damage reduction out to maximum range to full advantage? Are you using its superb accuracy out to maximum range (once you get used to the arc and aiming/ranging with the bottom of the hip fire reticule)? Are you using corners to fall back, while inflicting damage to the advancing heavy, whenever you meet a heavy up close? C'mon dude, your argument against this nerf boils down to "Don't be Seen", in a game where being seen for 1 second by a good rifle/hmg user means DEATH. A smart heavy will begin advancing out of cover to a position where you can't have any cover as soon as the first MD round lands, he's not going to be hugging corners. Splash him with an entire clip, even after a flux(for armor builds), he'll be getting a bead on you while you're fumbling with reload. Bolded above for emphasis. If you're standing in full view of a heavy for 1 full second, no weapon can save you. Can't you back around a corner when you get surprised by a heave in about a quarter of a second? That's why the burst HMG is so devestating; against a burst I entirely agree with you. Even pulling back as fast as my reflexes and lag allows, I frequently get toasted by a burst HMG, but against other HMGs, I more frequently than not can break contact when surprised by a heavy. And that's as a brick tanked, kind of slow logi. Heavies are the only suits I can outmaneuver, IF they aren't running KinCats. Are you having a different experience with breaking initial contact when surprised by a heavy? How are you approaching corners? I asked you the questions quoted above, not to be rhetorical, but to genuinely inquire. I guess a more general way of putting some of those questions: On average, how far does a round from your mass driver travel before it hits something? If its less than a third of your maximum range, can we agree that you're not taking full advantage of your ability to out range an HMG's damage? Does your playstyle with the MD more closely resemble a shotgunner or a sniper, if we consider those two roles as the extremes on a continuum? The quarterbacking is interesting, it really is, but the core issue is that the Mass Driver is one of the LOWEST DPS weapons in the game, and it doesn't need to be 25% lower on the count of a fat suit with ridiculous HP.
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1919	Posted - 2014.09.23 21:52:00 - [45] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: How are you using the MD? Are you maintaining range whenever possible, using its long range with no damage reduction out to maximum range to full advantage? Are you using its superb accuracy out to maximum range (once you get used to the arc and aiming/ranging with the bottom of the hip fire reticule)? Are you using corners to fall back, while inflicting damage to the advancing heavy, whenever you meet a heavy up close? C'mon dude, your argument against this nerf boils down to "Don't be Seen", in a game where being seen for 1 second by a good rifle/hmg user means DEATH. A smart heavy will begin advancing out of cover to a position where you can't have any cover as soon as the first MD round lands, he's not going to be hugging corners. Splash him with an entire clip, even after a flux(for armor builds), he'll be getting a bead on you while you're fumbling with reload. Bolded above for emphasis. If you're standing in full view of a heavy for 1 full second, no weapon can save you. Can't you back around a corner when you get surprised by a heave in about a quarter of a second? That's why the burst HMG is so devestating; against a burst I entirely agree with you. Even pulling back as fast as my reflexes and lag allows, I frequently get toasted by a burst HMG, but against other HMGs, I more frequently than not can break contact when surprised by a heavy. And that's as a brick tanked, kind of slow logi. Heavies are the only suits I can outmaneuver, IF they aren't running KinCats. Are you having a different experience with breaking initial contact when surprised by a heavy? How are you approaching corners? I asked you the questions quoted above, not to be rhetorical, but to genuinely inquire. I guess a more general way of putting some of those questions: On average, how far does a round from your mass driver travel before it hits something? If its less than a third of your maximum range, can we agree that you're not taking full advantage of your ability to out range an HMG's damage? Does your playstyle with the MD more closely resemble a shotgunner or a sniper, if we consider those two roles as the extremes on a continuum? The quarterbacking is interesting, it really is, but the core issue is that the Mass Driver is one of the LOWEST DPS weapons in the game, and it doesn't need to be 25% lower on the count of a fat suit with ridiculous HP. I think I played against your mass driver in a pub the other day, Line Harvest skirm IIRC. GG, don't see decent MD users too often on the ground, it's mostly used as roof camping artillery
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3077	Posted - 2014.09.23 22:36:00 - [46] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Radar isn't EWAR. EWAR doesn't actually EXIST in DUST.A sentinel detector makes a lot more sense than a blind b*tch who gets ganked in the back by everyone and their brother because he doesn't see radar blips unless they are literally right on top of him (in shotgun optimal). A sentinel needs to be able to see incoming to defend points. I never hang out in static locations because everyone with sensors that work immediately run off to the next point. Sentinels are balanced around the idea that they need scouts/logis to support their weak passive sensors. Imagine a dropsuits with resistances, incredible anti-infantry weaponry, high eHP, AND above average sensor strength... it would be OP, to say the least. Uhhh, no, they'd lose the resistances. entirely. Price you gotta pay for being stronger somewhere else.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 640	Posted - 2014.09.24 20:51:00 - [47] - Quote Did some numbers on a worst case scenario against an Amarr Sentinel suit with two weapons: MILITIA Rail Rifle DPS: ~361 -10% damage to shields -10% damage to Amarr Sentinel Resists DPS against Amarr Sentinel: 389 PROTOTYPE Mass Driver DPS: 160 (splash) -20% damage to shields -25% damage to Sentinel Resists DPS against Amarr Sentinel: 88 ThatGÇÖs an EXTREMELY disproportionate and unnecessary disadvantage.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3384	Posted - 2014.09.24 20:56:00 - [48] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Did some numbers on a worst case scenario against an Amarr Sentinel suit with two weapons: MILITIA Rail Rifle DPS: ~361 -10% damage to shields -10% damage to Amarr Sentinel Resists DPS against Amarr Sentinel: 389 PROTOTYPE Mass Driver DPS: 160 (splash) -20% damage to shields -25% damage to Sentinel Resists DPS against Amarr Sentinel: 88 ThatGÇÖs an EXTREMELY disproportionate and unnecessary disadvantage. The rail rifle resistance only applies to the dropsuits' shields... which are not as thick as armor. The resistance is to the mass driver's splash. If you were to directly hit a sentinel with a mass driver round he would not enjoy his 25% resistance. It's easier than you think because armor sentinels are slow like turtle. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 640	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:20:00 - [49] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Did some numbers on a worst case scenario against an Amarr Sentinel suit with two weapons: MILITIA Rail Rifle DPS: ~361 -10% damage to shields -10% damage to Amarr Sentinel Resists DPS against Amarr Sentinel: 389 PROTOTYPE Mass Driver DPS: 160 (splash) -20% damage to shields -25% damage to Sentinel Resists DPS against Amarr Sentinel: 88 ThatGÇÖs an EXTREMELY disproportionate and unnecessary disadvantage. The rail rifle resistance only applies to the dropsuits' shields... which are not as thick as armor. That's part of my point, the worst case for a rail rifle, or any rifle, depends on the race of the sentinel. The worst case for a mass driver is facing ANY sentinel, which incurs a 45% reduction in damage, vs 20% for a specific rifle against a specific race of sentinel. Quote: The resistance is to the mass driver's splash. If you were to directly hit a sentinel with a mass driver round he would not enjoy his 25% resistance. It's easier than you think because armor sentinels are slow like turtle. The problem with getting a direct hit on a heavy is that you have to be in his line of sight. And now you're talking 330 DPS vs 720 DPS.
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 1046	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:25:00 - [50] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: The resistance only applies to splash damage, so if you hit them with a direct shot it will do full damage. It shouldn't be too hard considering their massive hitboxes. If you can direct impact them, it means they can see you. If they can see you, you have lost. Even with direct impact every time, a heavy can kill you before you can kill him. The only option is to pillar kite the heavy, which is significantly less effective as a strategy thanks to the explosive resistance.

Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 1046	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:34:00 - [51] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The mass driver and flaylock were the exact reason that sentinels were given splash resists. Actually, I think it was the dead trigger remote explosives... Most of the high level matches played before that change consisted of FA/AE "scouts" running up to heavies with REs, throwing them, dieing, then exploding them. Unfortunatly, CCP opted for the kitchen sink method of fixing this problem. A problem that the effectively fixed when they fixed the dead trigger bug. So MD/Flaylock get the screw, while REs are still pretty effective when used as intended. Perhaps they should remove the flaylock/MD penalty and increase the RE/nade resistance? I don't really care either way, I don't even play this game anymore. But if I was to play again, that would be a change that I would like to see implemented by the time I get there... You are talking almost 2 whole mass driver clips to kill a heavy with splash.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3138	Posted - 2014.09.25 06:15:00 - [52] - Quote Fiddlestaxp wrote: I don't really care either way, I don't even play this game anymore. But if I was to play again, that would be a change that I would like to see implemented by the time I get there... You are talking almost 2 whole mass driver clips to kill a heavy with splash. All of the rifles work better The mass driver chops armor mediums and pretty much all lights to chutney. Its one of the few reliable ways to gank scouts.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 641	Posted - 2014.09.29 04:57:00 - [53] - Quote Added some numbers to the top post.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 691	Posted - 2014.10.31 07:25:00 - [54] - Quote This resistance is still ridiculously high. No other weapon in the game faces this much inherent resistance across an entire class of suits (sentinels)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4240	Posted - 2014.10.31 07:46:00 - [55] - Quote Sentinel suits need to be evicted from CQC. It's amazing how everyone in beta thought putting them into the role that makes their drawbacks was such a great idea. Now assault utility is held hostage by the need to keep fatties in CQC. It needs to change. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 288	Posted - 2014.10.31 08:01:00 - [56] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: The resistance only applies to splash damage, so if you hit them with a direct shot it will do full damage. It shouldn't be too hard considering their massive hitboxes. sure because when you are getting pounded by the hmg it is soo easy to direct hit a heavy as your body gets jerked around with a non aim assist weapon. Yet any sidearm can 2 magazine a heavy, yet a light weapon is closer to 4. I do agree some sentinels should have splash reduction but not at the levels they are currently . Some guns vs any suit should be less effective, but you all are lying if you don't see this as immunity. Sage /thread
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2095	Posted - 2014.10.31 08:03:00 - [57] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Michael Arck wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. LOL! No. Sentinels are designed to take on heavier firepower and resistance to the explosives...cause that's what Sentinels/Heavies are. It's even in the description in game. Sentinels are point pushers and point defenders, they are more frontline than the assault and for that reason they should not have their resistance to explosives removed. ...What unit in a game of skirmish ISN'T pushing a point or defending a point? And what bearing does the description have on pragmatic balancing? Splash is the PRIMARY mode of damage for the mass driver, direct hits are very hard to land against even a slow moving target (if the MD were easy to use, everyone would be using it). It's ridiculous to empty a whole clip of MD rounds onto a heavy and he only ends up halfway through armor. What other weapon has this disadvantage against heavies? Here's the reasoning as I see it. Sentinels are slow. Very slow. They cannot avoid mass dirver rounds like, say, a scout can. Therefore, Instead of trying to evade it, they simply soak it up. Plus, There are many different weapons that crack them just fine (shotgun, CR, RR, etc.) so I don't see what the problem is. Plus, With MinSentinel at 5, I'm not exactly laughing madly as I stand with impunity before droves of mass drivers. I just don't have to boogie as soon as I see a few rounds headed my way. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 288	Posted - 2014.10.31 08:26:00 - [58] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Michael Arck wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. LOL! No. Sentinels are designed to take on heavier firepower and resistance to the explosives...cause that's what Sentinels/Heavies are. It's even in the description in game. Sentinels are point pushers and point defenders, they are more frontline than the assault and for that reason they should not have their resistance to explosives removed. ...What unit in a game of skirmish ISN'T pushing a point or defending a point? And what bearing does the description have on pragmatic balancing? Splash is the PRIMARY mode of damage for the mass driver, direct hits are very hard to land against even a slow moving target (if the MD were easy to use, everyone would be using it). It's ridiculous to empty a whole clip of MD rounds onto a heavy and he only ends up halfway through armor. What other weapon has this disadvantage against heavies? Here's the reasoning as I see it. Sentinels are slow. Very slow. They cannot avoid mass dirver rounds like, say, a scout can. Therefore, Instead of trying to evade it, they simply soak it up. Plus, There are many different weapons that crack them just fine (shotgun, CR, RR, etc.) so I don't see what the problem is. Plus, With MinSentinel at 5, I'm not exactly laughing madly as I stand with impunity before droves of mass drivers. I just don't have to boogie as soon as I see a few rounds headed my way. all sidearms (minus the flaylock)apply damage easier and effectively than the MD. How can you defend that at the risk of true balance ? You can't . Check m8. Sage /thread
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4247	Posted - 2014.10.31 08:58:00 - [59] - Quote Except mass drivers slaughter every other dropsuit. There is no checkmate. You're fighting a hardened target intended to soak fire. Best heavy killing weapon is a rifle at 40+ meters. If you're stuck in cqc do what the natives do and RE the fat punk. They almost never survive that. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5128	Posted - 2014.10.31 11:58:00 - [60] - Quote +1 to the OP. Gives the MD and Nades a chance to break up a logi/heavy train. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 84	Posted - 2014.10.31 15:14:00 - [61] - Quote Chiming in as someone who ran heavy pretty exclusively in Chrome, and is currently part-time Amarr Logi/part-time Amarr Sent, I can say that: This bonus is absolutely necessary. Moreover, any argument that boils down to "MD/grenades need to do more damage to a fatty to break up chubby chaser teams" is stupid. It's very simple why that's the case too: MD/grenades still do buttloads of damage to the logi part of a "logi/heavy train". So, you know, if a logi is shoving a rep tool so far up a heavy's backside that the heavy is breathing the nanite beam... shoot the bloody logi. I mean, if you're so good with the MD, you can obviously arc shots onto a logi if you're fighting over open ground. And hey, you can cook grenades, which also means that you can very easily bounce them around corners into the face of that logi. If you couldn't tell, I hate repping people. I may be a logi, but I am not a walking repair tool whose sole purpose in life is to keep you alive. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 697	Posted - 2014.11.01 05:32:00 - [62] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Except mass drivers slaughter every other dropsuit. There is no checkmate. You're fighting a hardened target intended to soak fire. Best heavy killing weapon is a rifle at 40+ meters. If you're stuck in cqc do what the natives do and RE the fat punk. They almost never survive that. Yeah, mass drivers slaughter, that's why everyone uses it. What game are you playing? Mass driver has the lowest DPS of almost every weapon even with splash, a nerf on top of that is ridiculous.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4287	Posted - 2014.11.01 05:46:00 - [63] - Quote May have low DPS but it still chops armor tank to chutney at the rapid pace. An EXO mass driver kills almost any assault armor suit in two shots with solid placement. It OHKs most scouts that aren't cal shield bricks. Most of the reason people refuse to use it is prejudice against "scrub guns" and a moral objection to splash damage. But I get triple and double kills fairly frequently even with the militia version. The weapon works insanely well if you know how to employ it. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 697	Posted - 2014.11.01 06:06:00 - [64] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: May have low DPS but it still chops armor tank to chutney at the rapid pace. It may have low actual mathematical DPS, but your metaphor says otherwise.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4289	Posted - 2014.11.01 06:38:00 - [65] - Quote Two one- second alphas > three seconds of DPS on target. You cannot engage using alpha weapons the same way you engage with a rifle. Mass driver employment requires a different tactical mindset than most players are willibg ro enter. It's the same reason most people suck with laser rifles. They require a complete shift of mindset to employ. It's why forge guns aren't popular. Swarms are easier to employ even if a proper forge makea a swarmer loom like a child attacking a tinkertoy set. Employing alpha weapons the way you employ DPS weapons means you die a lot. My mass driver fits all emplpy a combat rifle or a magsec SMG for killing heavies outside HMG optimal. Mass driver guts people and makes them rage badly when employed correctly. Running forward while firing is the opposite of correct. Alpha weapons have thw the potential to kill faster than any assault rifle. You just have to employ them the right way. See shotgun scouts pre cloak. There were a few scouts who could get in close with a shotgun and even without the cloak make people scream for shotgun nerfs because they considered It utterly unfair. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 697	Posted - 2014.11.01 09:01:00 - [66] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Two one- second alphas > three seconds of DPS on target. You cannot engage using alpha weapons the same way you engage with a rifle. Mass driver employment requires a different tactical mindset than most players are willing to enter. It's the same reason most people suck with laser rifles. They require a complete shift of mindset to employ. It's why forge guns aren't popular. Swarms are easier to employ even if a proper forge makes a swarmer loom like a child attacking a tinkertoy set. Employing alpha weapons the way you employ DPS weapons means you die a lot. My mass driver fits all employ a combat rifle or a magsec SMG for killing heavies outside HMG optimal. Mass driver guts people and makes them rage badly when employed correctly. Running forward while firing is the opposite of correct. Alpha weapons have the the potential to kill faster than any assault rifle. You just have to employ them the right way. See shotgun scouts pre cloak. There were a few scouts who could get in close with a shotgun and even without the cloak make people scream for shotgun nerfs because they considered It utterly unfair. I don't see what your wall of theorycrafting has to do with the mathematical fact that the mass driver has the lowest DPS in the game, and the sentinel bonus makes them nearly IMMUNE to mass drivers. Before the sentinel bonus it could at least be used to deter the heavy trains that swarm points in PC, now sentinels basically just walk right through it. Unless I go for direct hits, but again, now they can see me, and I can see them, and that math does not work out for the MD user. I've been using the mass driver EXCLUSIVELY since the first day of open beta. I know how to use my weapon, and I know when my weapon is broken, but any reasonable non-MD user can look at the MD's effective DPS against a sentinel and come to the conclusion that the sentinel bonus is excessive.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4292	Posted - 2014.11.01 10:12:00 - [67] - Quote Theorycrafting my ass. This is usage and operator experience. I don't theorycraft, it's bullsh*t. I post what I see and do and most of what I see points to "most mass driver users suck" Use another weapon for sentinels. It's not the go-to easy kill weapon on them anymore. Accept it and move along. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4305	Posted - 2014.11.01 14:34:00 - [68] - Quote Oh and as a reminder: Alpha Weapons have low DPS by design. Mass driver is an alpha weapon. Further the game is about choices and hard counters. If sentinel splash is removed mass drivers become easy mode again. Why? Why my boy, you can 2-shot any non sentinel with good placement and 3 damage mods. If the mass driver becomes efficient against fatties then what will be the counter to mass drivers? Every goddamn minmatar commando in the game will do nothing but mass drivers, and minssaults and logis will have zero reason to not armor up and rock 3 damage mods. Caldari assaults with extender p*rn still get 2-shotted by proto MD. The only thing keeping MDs from being more common is the sentinel splash resistance. If you want to gank sentinels, run another weapon. I find the ScP, magsec and CR to be remarkably effective at 45+ meters. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7188	Posted - 2014.11.01 14:45:00 - [69] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. Amarr and Gallente should really be the only races with a Sentinel bonus to Explosives. Amarr bonus being Primary Explosives Resistance, Minor Projectile Damage Bonus Gallente being Primary Hybrid-Rail, Minor Explosives. I mean Explosives Resistance is actually the highest resistance value Amarrian Armour vessels have @ T2. Following that train of thought. Minmatar: Primary Laser Shield Resistance 5% per level. Minor Plasma Shield Resistance 3% per level. Caldari: Primary Plasma Shield Resistance 5% per Level. Minor Projectile Shield Resistance 3% per level. Just following the Natural Resistance of T2 Ships in EVE (Heavy Assault Cruisers in particular) Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4305	Posted - 2014.11.01 14:55:00 - [70] - Quote Shield sents don't have the hp to survive MD period. Just winds up shuffling the original problem. The solution is the eviction of sentinels from CQC. This restores the MD as the go-to CQC suppressive weapon and opens sentinels to the weapons that should be able to counter them. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

DarthPlagueis TheWise 213	Posted - 2014.11.01 15:12:00 - [71] - Quote The idea here isn't the resistance to MDs. It's those goddamn OP as hell Remote Explosives. And if you're not carrying fluxes on your MD suit, you're doing it wrong. I can guarantee you that as a full time heavy, those MDs can hurt a lot. Especially when you hit me when I'm behind cover. Bolas deploys tank in strategic location
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4306	Posted - 2014.11.01 15:25:00 - [72] - Quote DarthPlagueis TheWise wrote: The idea here isn't the resistance to MDs. It's those goddamn OP as hell Remote Explosives. And if you're not carrying fluxes on your MD suit, you're doing it wrong. I can guarantee you that as a full time heavy, those MDs can hurt a lot. Especially when you hit me when I'm behind cover. Someone said they are bypassing splash resistance. Makes sense since a 1500 hp RE should only hit a calsent for 900 at full shields. But they still instapop. And wrong thread. This thread was created explicitly to gripe about mass drivers. The RE thread is that way. ---------> EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Cavani1EE7 Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 383	Posted - 2014.11.01 19:35:00 - [73] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. Amarr and Gallente should really be the only races with a Sentinel bonus to Explosives. Amarr bonus being Primary Explosives Resistance, Minor Projectile Damage Bonus Gallente being Primary Hybrid-Rail, Minor Explosives. I mean Explosives Resistance is actually the highest resistance value Amarrian Armour vessels have @ T2. Than though Caldari and Minmatar should have flux high res. Take a bow
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 698	Posted - 2014.11.01 22:46:00 - [74] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Theorycrafting my ass. This is usage and operator experience. I don't theorycraft, it's bullsht. I post what I see and do and most of what I see points to "most mass driver users suck" Use another weapon for sentinels. It's not the go-to easy kill weapon on them anymore. Accept it and move along. "Use another weapon?" The mass driver is the only light weapon subject to that advice against sentinels. You don't see a problem with that? Rail Rifle? Please proceed. Combat Rifle? Right-o then. Shotgun? Carry On. Mass Driver? WOOOOAAAAH, put that away, what are you trying to do, KILL* someone? It was never easy to kill a competent heavy with a mass driver, the resistance was meant to target REs, and the mass driver is a casualty CCP didn't think about.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 699	Posted - 2014.11.01 22:50:00 - [75] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Why my boy, you can 2-shot any non sentinel with good placement and 3 damage mods. If the mass driver becomes efficient against fatties then what will be the counter to mass drivers? Every weapon in the whole game is a counter to mass drivers. We don't need another nerf.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 699	Posted - 2014.11.01 22:59:00 - [76] - Quote DarthPlagueis TheWise wrote: The idea here isn't the resistance to MDs. It's those goddamn OP as hell Remote Explosives. And if you're not carrying fluxes on your MD suit, you're doing it wrong. I can guarantee you that as a full time heavy, those MDs can hurt a lot. Especially when you hit me when I'm behind cover. You're making bad choices. If you're behind cover, and some dingbat is hitting you for 88 damage every second, you pop out and shoot them for 700 damage every second. If the MD user is out of your range, you zig-zag away until you get out of harms way, or if terrain permits, you zig-zag towards the MD user and pop them during the inevitable reload. MD hurts a lot if you want to say still for two magazine unloads.
Kensai Dragon Dust University Ivy League 32	Posted - 2014.11.01 23:36:00 - [77] - Quote Ok, so the problem is that splash damage doesn't kill Sentinels fast enough for you. There's really only one map that I can think of where Sents crowd up in closed rooms, the Dom with objective and supply both underground. Even in that map, I get MD'd from above. I believe every other map gives ample opportunity for flanking Sents, which means that you can see them from range and land your direct shots. It's a specialty weapon, like Shotguns. It should require at least some situational decision making. MD is great for crowd control. No other infantry weapon does it better. Resistance to splash is the counter.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 700	Posted - 2014.11.02 01:38:00 - [78] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Ok, so the problem is that splash damage doesn't kill Sentinels fast enough for you. There's really only one map that I can think of where Sents crowd up in closed rooms, the Dom with objective and supply both underground. Even in that map, I get MD'd from above. I believe every other map gives ample opportunity for flanking Sents, which means that you can see them from range and land your direct shots. It's a specialty weapon, like Shotguns. It should require at least some situational decision making. MD is great for crowd control. No other infantry weapon does it better. Resistance to splash is the counter. Only one map? Quite the contrary, Most maps have objectives that encourage CQC. There's only one or two objectives in the entire game I can think of where there's an open objective with no crates/boxes/walls to funnel people into a meat grinder. CQC is the norm around objectives. Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.11.02 04:19:00 - [79] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Except mass drivers slaughter every other dropsuit. There is no checkmate. You're fighting a hardened target intended to soak fire. Best heavy killing weapon is a rifle at 40+ meters. If you're stuck in cqc do what the natives do and RE the fat punk. They almost never survive that. Every other weapon slaughters every other suit so that argument is invalid. No other weapon is so heavily penalised against any single suit as the MD is vs sentinels (this is an not arguable). 1500hp vs 88 damage and of the top of my head so I am off, it would take over 17 MD rds to bring down a heavy. TTK for that engagement takes about a minute given reload times and ducking into cover to regen. It is possible , and I have succeeded in doing so, but this point alone negates any argument against defending such high splash reduction that is currently in place. I don't have a problem with heavies having splash reduction but the current numbers make the current TTK way to askewed to be relevant at a competitive level. Sage /thread
Kensai Dragon Dust University Ivy League 34	Posted - 2014.11.02 05:02:00 - [80] - Quote Currently, Splash damage applies to grenades, missiles, and MD. I believe one of the Forge variants retained splash as well, but not a forger so I'm not sure. Mass driver is essentially a grenade launcher. Also, if you throw a Flux first then splash damage at the 160 you listed is 120hp/shot on a maxed out Sentinel. With these numbers, I'm not sure the splash damage resistance is the issue. If you're trying to take out Sentinels (which start out at base +1k ehp with minimal core upgrades) with only 160 dmg per shot, then I'd say you chose the wrong weapon for that engagement.

Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 1077	Posted - 2014.11.02 08:20:00 - [81] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. Agree mostly, but slightly incorrect. At Range, you are usually looking at either a direct hit or miss(obviously you are trying to hit them in the knees, but a long shot is easy to misjudge unless the terrain is favorable). If they are stupid enough to stand next to a wall, you are looking to do neither and shoot directly above their head. None of these options are likely to kill the heavy. The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 713	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:03:00 - [82] - Quote Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits?
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14252	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:06:00 - [83] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits? Amarr Assaults...... SCR cannot chew through any sentinel....but a poorly tanked Minmatar one. "HeGÇÖs sorry. ThatGÇÖs his sorry faceGÇª. Just keep quiet for now and maybe you'll get through this." -Kador Ouryon
hfderrtgvcd 1077	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:11:00 - [84] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits? lolwhat. Unless you're using a shotgun you have to run from heavies. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 713	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:16:00 - [85] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits? lolwhat. Unless you're using a shotgun you have to run from heavies. What you're saying is that shotgunners are the only people who are capable of killing heavies, and that contradicts the reality of the game. Rifle users along with shotguns are able to engage sentinels and have a shot at winning. I see it happen all the time. But mass driver's damage against sentinel is so low that the chance of winning an encounter is terrible, and the choices are usually DIE/RUN.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 95	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:50:00 - [86] - Quote Except that due to HMGs being relegated to "lawlCQC" as a role, means that shotguns really are the only light weapon that is generally practical for heavy dueling at close quarters. A rifle user firing on heavy from outside HMG range means that the heavy is in more open terrain, which for a long time means that the heavy dies, or if he's lucky he manages to make into cover and spends the next five minutes playing "run around the rock" to keep something between himself and the rifle user... which also means that said heavy is not doing anything helpful to his team and will probably end up popped anyways. You think a MD in close engagement means a "DIE/RUN" choice when against a heavy sucks? Yeah, try the choice of "DIE FAST/DIE SLOW" for a heavy in the open who probably isn't going to make it to cover and will be outranged by anyone with half a brain. At least you have the option to run away- a heavy in the open is a walking corpse. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
137H4RGIC Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 273	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:05:00 - [87] - Quote Heavy's need to have the explosion resistance because they are meant to defend the point or objective. The reason they defend the point, it's because they cannot chase the scouts or the assault classes. if you remove this explosive resistance that makes them impervious to grenades which everyone carries and heavies are typically too slow to take evasive action against grenades. what I am hearing is someone who uses a mass driver that keeps trying to take on a heavy because they are to use to killing scouts or assaults very easily. Stop trying to fight heavies with what they are tanked against. You don't see heavies trying to engage their bane: rail rifles. Why are you engaging yours? TLDR adapt stop trying to kill heavies with mass drivers. Ps I'm a chromosome heavy veteran D.U.S.T. Don't Underestimate Stupid Tryhards...
137H4RGIC Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 273	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:10:00 - [88] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits? as a heavy with hmg?? Shotguns, snipers, laser rifles, rail rifles, tanks, drop ships, nova knives. D.U.S.T. Don't Underestimate Stupid Tryhards...
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 713	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:46:00 - [89] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: Heavy's need to have the explosion resistance because they are meant to defend the point or objective. The reason they defend the point, it's because they cannot chase the scouts or the assault classes. if you remove this explosive resistance that makes them impervious to grenades which everyone carries and heavies are typically too slow to take evasive action against grenades. what I am hearing is someone who uses a mass driver that keeps trying to take on a heavy because they are to use to killing scouts or assaults very easily. Stop trying to fight heavies with what they are tanked against. You don't see heavies trying to engage their bane: rail rifles. Why are you engaging yours? TLDR adapt stop trying to kill heavies with mass drivers. Ps I'm a chromosome heavy veteran A rail rifle can engage a heavy within a heavy's range and have a shot at winning. If you want grenade/remote resistance, you can keep it due to the alpha of those weapons. But look at the math, NOTHING else in the game is such a hard counter to a light weapon. Heavies were always hard to kill with the mass driver due to their massive HP, which often required a reload before killing a heavy (8+ seconds). What other weapon takes 8 seconds of continuous engagement to kill a heavy? THAT WAS PRE RESISTANCE. Now they basically have immunity.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 50	Posted - 2014.11.07 01:18:00 - [90] - Quote So, I come around the corner finally catching up with my team, you just killed off all my scout and assault buddies with your OP MD, and you're upset that you can't kill me with the same impunity? LOL Every other weapon has a balance through limitations. Shotgun and HMG are severely limited through range. Forge and RR are limited through charge up time. Etc, etc. It seems the MD limitation is suit class. It may be novel and unique in this case, but if the MD becomes the super slayer from afar, near, and everywhere, what is the limitation?

Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 292	Posted - 2014.11.07 01:50:00 - [91] - Quote CCP listens to factual numbers. can some mathematician do the numbers and figure out the TTK of MD vs stock heavies to include how many rounds it takes? My last check off of others math was 17 rounds, but that did not include regean abilities of either side. We need hard evidence with real numbers. Sage /thread
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 716	Posted - 2014.11.07 07:51:00 - [92] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: CCP listens to factual numbers. can some mathematician do the numbers and figure out the TTK of MD vs stock heavies to include how many rounds it takes? My last check off of others math was 17 rounds, but that did not include regean abilities of either side. We need hard evidence with real numbers. Regen is kind of negligible, but we can do some simple math on a stacked sentinel vs a stacked mass driver. Sentinel: ck.0 (shield/armor brick tank) Shield: 946.65 Armor: 636 Commando: mk.0 (freedom mass driver/2 dmg mods) Splash: 201.78 DPS (110.979 with sentinel+shield resists) Direct: 417.45 DPS One full magazine of splash from an MD, and the commando is down to 280.776 shields. That's 6 seconds, and it's time to reload (2.55 seconds, down from 4 seconds due to bonuses) We're at 8 and a half seconds. 3 more shots and we've broken shields, and are into armor, and we're at 11.5 seconds. The overage from the last volley leaves us with about 586.45 armor. It gets a bit better in armor, we're looking at only a 5% penalty, due to the mass driver's bonus against armor. Splash DPS goes to 191.69. Now where were we? Pop, Pop, Pop. P- Crap, reload time. Three seconds per pop, 2.5 seconds to reload, we're at 17 seconds. Pop. Boom, Our MAX Caldari sentinel is dead to our MAX Minmatar mass driver, and it only took 17 seconds. This, friends, is broken.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 293	Posted - 2014.11.07 08:29:00 - [93] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Doshneil Antaro wrote: CCP listens to factual numbers. can some mathematician do the numbers and figure out the TTK of MD vs stock heavies to include how many rounds it takes? My last check off of others math was 17 rounds, but that did not include regean abilities of either side. We need hard evidence with real numbers. Regen is kind of negligible, but we can do some simple math on a stacked sentinel vs a stacked mass driver. Sentinel: ck.0 (shield/armor brick tank) Shield: 946.65 Armor: 636 Commando: mk.0 (freedom mass driver/2 dmg mods) Splash: 201.78 DPS (110.979 with sentinel+shield resists) Direct: 417.45 DPS One full magazine of splash from an MD, and the commando is down to 280.776 shields. That's 6 seconds, and it's time to reload (2.55 seconds, down from 4 seconds due to bonuses) We're at 8 and a half seconds. 3 more shots and we've broken shields, and are into armor, and we're at 11.5 seconds. The overage from the last volley leaves us with about 586.45 armor. It gets a bit better in armor, we're looking at only a 5% penalty, due to the mass driver's bonus against armor. Splash DPS goes to 191.69. Now where were we? Pop, Pop, Pop. P- Crap, reload time. Three seconds per pop, 2.5 seconds to reload, we're at 17 seconds. Pop. Boom, Our MAX Caldari sentinel is dead to our MAX Minmatar mass driver, and it only took 17 seconds. This, friends, is broken. thank you my friend. Now anyone defending the sentinel vs MD please feel free to argue with that 17 second TTK and defend it. Protip, you can't. No other weapon is so heavily penalised vs anything. I do agree that heavies need resistance vs explosions, but nobody can defend these numbers and not be a troll. Sage /thread
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4626	Posted - 2014.11.07 08:36:00 - [94] - Quote Heavies need to be evicted from CQC. They shouldn't be in mass driver engagement range to begin with. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Powerh8er The Rainbow Effect 516	Posted - 2014.11.07 11:25:00 - [95] - Quote A walking tankman resistent to explosives? Unheard of!
137H4RGIC Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 276	Posted - 2014.11.07 15:36:00 - [96] - Quote Like iws said. No. I tried giving you advice on the issue so you could better understand it. Whether you learn from it or not is up to you D.U.S.T. Don't Underestimate Stupid Tryhards...
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 50	Posted - 2014.11.07 19:18:00 - [97] - Quote Lol, fine I'm a troll. MD is essentially a grenade launcher, and they limited us to 2 of those. It doesn't lose effectiveness over distance like the rifles, and is meant to be a support weapon. Sending rounds downrange causes damage and disorder for the team to capitalize on. If you're using it as a slayer weapon then I'd say you're doing it wrong, or you should be close enough to get direct hits. Used as support, not solo, I find it pretty effective. I've died in my Amarr brick tanked Sentinel more than a couple of times to a barrage of MD used with skill. Pick your shots, stop trying to be a super slayer with a support weapon.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2117	Posted - 2014.11.07 20:14:00 - [98] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits? Here is the core reason for the resistance. Sentinels can't run. There sprint is easily overtaken by a walking medium, even if the medium has a plate or two. Since sentinels cannot avoid the mass driver, they simply soak up the damage. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 1955	Posted - 2014.11.07 21:58:00 - [99] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: . What other weapon takes 8 seconds of continuous engagement to kill a heavy? Lasers... /thread Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 718	Posted - 2014.11.07 22:47:00 - [100] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Here is the core reason for the resistance. Sentinels can't run. There sprint is easily overtaken by a walking medium, even if the medium has a plate or two. Since sentinels cannot avoid the mass driver, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the rail rifle, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the assault rifle, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the shotgun, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the combat rifle, they simply soak up the damage. What's that? those higher DPS weapons are only resisted by CERTAIN RACES of sentinel? And resisted by much less than the 25% against the LOW DPS mass driver? Craziness.

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 99	Posted - 2014.11.07 23:54:00 - [101] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Since sentinels cannot avoid (whatever racial) rifle, they simply soak up the damage. That's cute that you think a sentinel can actually survive against a rifle user when out in the open. If this is a "CQB" related thing, then I'd argue there's more issue with the HMG being (stupidly) designed as a CQB dominance weapon than rifle effectiveness against heavies of any stripe. KA24DERT wrote: Since sentinels cannot avoid the shotgun, they simply soak up the damage. ........You're either delusional or stupid if you really believe that. KA24DERT wrote: What's that? those higher DPS weapons are only resisted by CERTAIN RACES of sentinel? And resisted by much less than the 25% against the LOW DPS mass driver? Craziness. You generally picked bad examples, and moreover ignored the fact that the MD, much like the LR, is not a "slayer" weapon, but a "support" weapon. That's not to say that MD/LR user can't rack up the kills in rapid order and to great heights of murder-death-kill-ness, but rather that the intended role that the weapon is supposed to fulfill is much more complex than simply "kill stuff". Do keep in mind that MDs are pretty nearly instadeath for scouts (which is nice) and very deadly against medframes of all stripes (also nice)... so the fact that you lose "DPS" against heavies is pretty much working as intended. Due to the idiotic decision to chain heavies to CQB conditions, if you try to wander into that with a MD and duel a heavy... then you pretty much deserve to die. If, OTOH, you find a heavy in the open... you can outrun them, and you can outrange them, and the "ring around the rock" trick that can be used to try to get some amount of cover between yourself and your enemy no longer works, since you can pretty much punt the shells around and over said object that is being used as cover. If you can't kill a heavy in this case, then I'd say that the heavy is just hugging cover... in which case you basically have killed him, since he's stuck there and can be of no use to his team. Finally, DPS is a poor measure of performance to use with the MD, given that it has a high(-ish) alpha and also has a generally large-to-obscene amount of splash area. There's also the issue that back before heavies had a splash damage resist, it was quite common for somebody to run up, flux and then proceed to bunny hop around a heavy while killing them with MD splash. As someone who had to endure that... it was frustrating in the extreme because it was nearly impossible to fight back against and almost always resulted in my death. Even after the HP buff that heavies got (way back when the Amarr heavy was the only heavy), this is exactly the sort of thing that would happen... over, and over, and over again. Of course, that's without going into the very long period of time when locus grenades were instablap murderballs to heavies, given that a heavy is too slow to try and run away from a grenade... or run away at all really. There's also the slight issue that the bonus/tagging system simply wouldn't support the kind of granularity you seem to think it would. In layman's terms, this means that no, we cannot give a bonus that provides resists to only REs/grenades instead of the current splash damage bonus. Of course, given the history of MDs and heavies, right now I think I am going to just sit back and drink your tears as the fine vintage that they are. /sips wineglass of KA24DERT's tears Refreshing... very refreshing. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 718	Posted - 2014.11.08 00:04:00 - [102] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Finally, DPS is a poor measure of performance to use with the MD, given that it has a high(-ish) alpha and also has a generally large-to-obscene amount of splash area. A mathematical analysis of a weapon's actual damage and TTK is irrelevant when talking about bonuses, because "Alpha". Thank you for your contribution.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2117	Posted - 2014.11.08 01:19:00 - [103] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Here is the core reason for the resistance. Sentinels can't run. There sprint is easily overtaken by a walking medium, even if the medium has a plate or two. Since sentinels cannot avoid the mass driver, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the rail rifle, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the assault rifle, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the shotgun, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the combat rifle, they simply soak up the damage. What's that? those higher DPS weapons are only resisted by CERTAIN RACES of sentinel? And resisted by much less than the 25% against the LOW DPS mass driver? Craziness. Notice how none of those have splash, let alone up to and beyond 6m of splash. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 99	Posted - 2014.11.08 01:47:00 - [104] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: A mathematical analysis of a weapon's actual damage and TTK is irrelevant when talking about bonuses, because "Alpha". Thank you for your contribution. Well, when you say it like that... it just makes me think you're more of an idiot than I previously imagined. I did not say that the TTK analysis was irrelevant, I said that DPS is specifically a poor- as in "not very good/not the most accurate"- performance metric for the MD because of it's alpha damage bias and it's enormous splash radius. In other words, learn to actually read, you complete moron. The fact that you are trying to compare a weapon that is specifically designed to be an area-effect bombardment weapon with direct-fire zero-splash armaments that are intended as mainline service weapons is asinine, stupid, and generally bad. A significantly better comparison would be to the LR, as the LR and MD fulfill very similar roles, merely in very different fashions. But of course, that would require legitimate, unbiased, and intelligent thought on your part, and we can't have that, now can we. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 718	Posted - 2014.11.08 02:38:00 - [105] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: KA24DERT wrote: A mathematical analysis of a weapon's actual damage and TTK is irrelevant when talking about bonuses, because "Alpha". Thank you for your contribution. Well, when you say it like that... it just makes me think you're more of an idiot than I previously imagined. I did not say that the TTK analysis was irrelevant, I said that DPS is specifically a poor- as in "not very good/not the most accurate"- performance metric for the MD because of it's alpha damage bias and it's enormous splash radius. In other words, learn to actually read, you complete moron. The fact that you are trying to compare a weapon that is specifically designed to be an area-effect bombardment weapon with direct-fire zero-splash armaments that are intended as mainline service weapons is asinine, stupid, and generally bad. A significantly better comparison would be to the LR, as the LR and MD fulfill very similar roles, merely in very different fashions. But of course, that would require legitimate, unbiased, and intelligent thought on your part, and we can't have that, now can we. You don't see the folly in using subjective words and concepts to talk about mathematical damage and bonuses? What does "Alpha damage bias" mean? What does the size of the splash radius have to do with the damage? All you're doing at this point is typing words that have little bearing on the reality of this bonus,and trolling.
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 1079	Posted - 2014.11.08 05:28:00 - [106] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Here is the core reason for the resistance. Sentinels can't run. There sprint is easily overtaken by a walking medium, even if the medium has a plate or two. Since sentinels cannot avoid the mass driver, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the rail rifle, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the assault rifle, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the shotgun, they simply soak up the damage. Since sentinels cannot avoid the combat rifle, they simply soak up the damage. What's that? those higher DPS weapons are only resisted by CERTAIN RACES of sentinel? And resisted by much less than the 25% against the LOW DPS mass driver? Craziness. Notice how none of those have splash, let alone up to and beyond 6m of splash. Dispersion = splash. You are welcome. Edit: And if someone stands in the way of your MD round, it wont hit anything behind them. Dust characters block LoS on splash attacks. The 17 seconds to kill a cal heavy is perfect play. You might be looking at more than 20-25 seconds... Which is enough time for people to die, spawn in, die again, and respawn.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 99	Posted - 2014.11.08 05:46:00 - [107] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: You don't see the folly in using subjective words and concepts to talk about mathematical damage and bonuses? What does "Alpha damage bias" mean? What does the size of the splash radius have to do with the damage? It means that the weapon is optimized to deal it's damage in a small number of very powerful shots. Which means that you end up with a shot that hurts a lot, which tends to make everybody, even heavies, think "hmm, maybe I should pick a different route". If they're smart, at least. If they're stupid then they tend to die. I'll also note that you are completely ignoring the fact that MDs can hit people behind cover, and can hit multiple enemies with a single shot. Oh, and I went back and looked at this little tidbit again (snipped down to relevant parts): KA24DERT wrote: Sentinel: ck.0 (shield/armor brick tank) Shield: 946.65 Armor: 636 snipped some other math stuffs Pop. Boom, Our MAX Caldari sentinel is dead to our MAX Minmatar mass driver, and it only took 17 seconds. So, you do realize that using THE shield tanking sentinel is of course going to inflate your numbers in your favor, right? Maybe you should have included a max-armor AmSent as well. KA24DERT wrote: All you're doing at this point is typing words that have little bearing on the reality of this bonus,and trolling. Sure, sure, if that's what helps you sleep at night and ignore reality. I'll just be over here drinking your tears. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4674	Posted - 2014.11.08 10:01:00 - [108] - Quote Apparently omniweapons are a thing. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 720	Posted - 2014.11.08 10:07:00 - [109] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: So, you do realize that using THE shield tanking sentinel is of course going to inflate your numbers in your favor, right? Maybe you should have included a max-armor AmSent as well. What's the benefit of me doing the math for you? I've done enough math in this thread to prove my point, and all you're bringing out is subjective anecdotes that don't lessen the validity of my point. Do the math yourself. I've read paragraph after paragraph of what you have to say, and you keep bolstering your claims with phrases like "alpha", "large-to-obscene amount", "very powerful shots", and "hurts a lot". You are not saying anything at all, and you're totally ignoring the hard evidence I keep putting forth. You're not contributing anything to this thread aside from insults and trolling.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4675	Posted - 2014.11.08 10:21:00 - [110] - Quote One weapon being ineffective does not a problem make. Oh wait. Flaylocks. That's two. Everything else works on sentinel suits. Literally everything. This post reeks of the argument that was bandied about in beta. "I shouldn't have to change fits to deal with anything." It was a lame duck argument THEN and it's a lame duck argument NOW. Until heavy spam gets fixed use another fit. God only knows the spam needs to be killed with fire. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 720	Posted - 2014.11.08 10:37:00 - [111] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: One weapon being ineffective does not a problem make. Oh wait. Flaylocks. That's two. Everything else works on sentinel suits. Literally everything. Thanks for hi-lighting the imbalance. I think the imbalance should be continually brought up until it is addressed.
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 62	Posted - 2014.11.08 10:49:00 - [112] - Quote Calculate the DPS of a mass driver direct hits; something much more easy to achieve against sentinels than any other suit. Before this splash resistance bonus sentinels were easily taken out by grenade spam, but now that spam has switched to REs. Although it is sort of a disparity that all sentinels get a bonus against a minmatar damage type, the shield sentinels can still receive 100 damage per from the opposite damage profile - scrambler rifles.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4686	Posted - 2014.11.08 13:05:00 - [113] - Quote Let me spell this out in crayon. If splash resistance is removed the mass driver will have to be nerfed. My triple moddedd EXO-5 mass driver 2-shots every non sentinel in the game that is not a proto brick tank with no regen. The heavy suit is the ONLY suit that cannot be killed by one maybe two rounds from a splash weapon that can kill four people simultaneously. If sentinels lose the splash resistance then there is no counter. Then the mass driver must be retooled so it cannot kill four proto dropsuits with two rounds from any proto mass driver. If that resistance goes away then it has to be toned back so it does not solely dominate CQC and annihilate all scouts, commandos and assaults. This isn't supposition. This is a FACT. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 1958	Posted - 2014.11.08 15:05:00 - [114] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: One weapon being ineffective does not a problem make. Oh wait. Flaylocks. That's two. Everything else works on sentinel suits. Literally everything. Thanks for hi-lighting the imbalance. I think the imbalance should be continually brought up until it is addressed. ITS NOT IMBALANCE... would you use a ScR to fight an Amarr Sentinel? NO! It's literally the same thing. Different fits for different fights. Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 52	Posted - 2014.11.08 15:27:00 - [115] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: One weapon being ineffective does not a problem make. Oh wait. Flaylocks. That's two. Everything else works on sentinel suits. Literally everything. Thanks for hi-lighting the imbalance. I think the imbalance should be continually brought up until it is addressed. The only imbalance I see is you trying to use a support role as a primary slayer. Sentinels resistance IS the balance against MD.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 722	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:02:00 - [116] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: My triple moddedd EXO-5 mass driver 2-shots every non sentinel in the game that is not a proto brick tank with no regen. Your fit is putting out 362.25 DIRECT, and 175.09 SPLASH per shot, assuming MAX skills. Two shots of splash is 350.18. Medium suits have anywhere between 300-360 EHP with NO skills and NO modules. Two shots of Splash won't take out anything but the LIGHTEST fits in the game. So let's talk about two shots of Direct damage(ignoring the difficulty of hitting a moving target with a mass driver, and ignoring the bad hit detection, which rifles bypass with aim assist, and mass drivers bypass by flying right through an enemy) That's 724.50 damage, pretty impressive. Perhaps two direct hits will take out most units with two hits. Ignoring travel time, this basically means two seconds. Let's take a look at a MILITIA Assault Rifle with NO skills: Our fit is putting out 412 DPS In two seconds, our militia fit is doing 824 damage, vs your triple modded ADV MD at 724.50. Can your fit two-shot many suits? Not faster than a Militia AR can. Quote: The heavy suit is the ONLY suit that cannot be killed by one maybe two rounds from a splash weapon that can kill four people simultaneously. We've established how "well" the MD can kill, but yes, hitting four people simultaneously is a boon to the weapon, however now we're talking splash, not direct, and your fit is doing 175.09 per splash. Let's say each one of those raspberries has a militia assault rifle, for a combined DPS of 1648, and they all pop out of cover. Who is being suppressed now? Who is being killed now? Quote: If sentinels lose the splash resistance then there is no counter. You are working from the assumption that the mass driver needs a counter, and it doesn't. Its low damage output and niche use cases are enough of a restraint. Quote: Then the mass driver must be retooled so it cannot kill four proto dropsuits with two rounds from any proto mass driver. Surely you can't mean that two rounds of splash can take out four proto suits at once, so I'm guessing you mean that two direct hits can take out 4 classes of proto suits? Well, if those Proto suits are running something more than a unbonused Militia Assault Rifle with no damage mods, I think we know how that pans out. Quote: If that resistance goes away then it has to be toned back so it does not solely dominate CQC and annihilate all scouts, commandos and assaults. This isn't supposition. This is a FACT. By the numbers, by the amount of market purchases, and by battlefield prevalence, the mass driver is NOT the scourge you are trying to make it out to be. The mass driver is a bad weapon overall that has very niche use cases, and does not merit a 25%-45% resistance within those niches.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 100	Posted - 2014.11.08 23:55:00 - [117] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: What's the benefit of me doing the math for you? I've done enough math in this thread to prove my point, and all you're bringing out is subjective anecdotes that don't lessen the validity of my point. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof; further, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not the person who's disputing it or asking for additional evidence. IOW, if you say something that sound stupid, then YOU have to prove it isn't stupid. Not me, you. KA24DERT wrote: You're not contributing anything to this thread aside from insults and trolling. Well... I won't say I'm trolling you- but I won't say that I'm not either. Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: Although it is sort of a disparity that all sentinels get a bonus against a minmatar damage type, the shield sentinels can still receive 100 damage per from the opposite damage profile - scrambler rifles. Not really; the resistance bonus is to splash damage, not explosive damage. So, for example, the assault forge gun does less splash damage to sentinels as well. Flux grenades in particular do less damage to sentinels... though they do sufficient shield damage that it ends up being a wash. Small blasters do a little bit of splash damage now too, and will also deal reduced splash damage to sentinels. The main reason the OP is so butthurt about it is that the MD is generally considered the definitive splash damage weapon, and he wants it to be the omni-weapon over all guns ever. Kensai Dragon wrote: The only imbalance I see is you trying to use a support role as a primary slayer. Sentinels resistance IS the balance against MD. Congratulations, someone who understands the intended role of the MD. OP, you should take note. Maybe you could learn something from this person. KA24DERT wrote: By the numbers, by the amount of market purchases, and by battlefield prevalence, the mass driver is NOT the scourge you are trying to make it out to be. The mass driver is a bad weapon overall that has very niche use cases, and does not merit a 25%-45% resistance within those niches. Obviously you are stupid, because Breakin is not pointing out the current meta, but that your proposed (and also stupid) changes WILL bring the MD into being the CQC dominance weapon, that massacres anything and everything. Really, it just sounds like you want an easymode omni-gun that doesn't do everything sorta-okay-ish so much as excels at everything it ever tries. Oh, by the way OP.... Your tears, they are still delicious. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4716	Posted - 2014.11.09 11:29:00 - [118] - Quote The tears are SPECTACULAR. By the way, your math is wrong nerd. I two shot anything that isn't a proto fit. You assume maximum brick fits with max plats and extenders when that fitting method has fallen DEEPLY out of favor with the population at large, so false premise makes your math slanted in an unrealistic way! My proto Calsent caps out at around 1200 HP actual. and it does damn good against most fits. it doesn't NEED a bricktank. My minmatar fit is similar. And I do better with them than everyone claims they do. I love how you ran your math to only look at the only heavy shield sentinel by the way, masterstroke of slanting the math the way you want it. Too bad it's obvious, and has been used by every idiot on this forums to make a point. but basing your math on one dropsuit makes you show clear bias and refuse to accept counterargument. Your accusations of trolling and being nonconstructive when others disagree with you is nothing short of hilarity in motion. Your refusal to acknowledge that the MD rips assaults and scouts apart RAPIDLY is hilarious and your claim that having a counter is unfair is pure comedy. 8/10 would read again! EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 722	Posted - 2014.11.09 22:47:00 - [119] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The tears are SPECTACULAR. By the way, your math is wrong nerd. I two shot anything that isn't a proto fit. Is my math wrong because you've caught an error in it? Or is it wrong because your subjective experience doesn't line up with the numbers?
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 722	Posted - 2014.11.09 22:51:00 - [120] - Quote Into our arena enter our new contestants: Commando mk.0, six kin assault rifle, 2 damage mods: shield dps: 532.88 (27 per round) armor dps: 720.95 (36.05 per round) Sentinel ak.0, brick tank (bonuses do -15% damage to armor from our commando's combat rifle): 552.6 shield 1344 armor LetGÇÖs begin. This rifle shoots 20 seconds per round, and it takes about 3.4 seconds to empty our 68 round magazine. Against shields, weGÇÖre doing 27 damage per round. A second goes by, and our Amarr Sentinel is out of shields. We have 48 bullets left. Armor time, and the Amarr sentinel resists almost negates the combat rifle bonus, weGÇÖre doing 30.6425 per round now instead of 36.05. Before we empty our mag, the Sentinel ak.0 is dead, with 4 bullets left to our name. 3.2 seconds have passed. The resists to the combat rifle most likely gave our Sentinel more survivability, 3 seconds is a long time after all. But recall that against an MDGÇÖs splash, a similar nightmare scenario took 17 seconds.

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 102	Posted - 2014.11.10 05:56:00 - [121] - Quote So apparently somebody reported me for "trolling" when I was quite plainly pointing out that: 1. His maths are, at best, incomplete. The two examples he has given are biased to support his position, as he uses the definitive shield-tanked sentinel suit (Caldari Sentinel ck.0) as the MD target, and then an AmSent ak.0 as the ACR target. 2. The MD is a support weapon, and should not be usable as a general-purpose slayer weapon. 3. The MD is absolute murder to armor-tanked medframes and scouts in general- a fact which he has continued to ignore. 4. That another poster's point about MD scourges is that the MD will become the ultimate omni-gun of DUST (all hail Masshole 514!) if the sentinel splash resist bonus is removed. But hey, hiding behind the mods? That's pretty classy too. /sips distilled tears of KA24DERT EDIT: after reviewing your fixes of math, I really don't see what the big deal about the TTK difference is. So a MD takes about 3 times longer to kill a dedicated shield suit than the ACR takes to kill a dedicated armor suit? Yeah, when you try to compare those particular instances to prove your position, that's called bias, as in, the opposite of being objective. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 766	Posted - 2014.11.10 06:30:00 - [122] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: So apparently somebody reported me for "trolling" when I was quite plainly pointing out that: 1. His maths are, at best, incomplete. The two examples he has given are biased to support his position, as he uses the definitive shield-tanked sentinel suit (Caldari Sentinel ck.0) as the MD target, and then an AmSent ak.0 as the ACR target. 2. The MD is a support weapon, and should not be usable as a general-purpose slayer weapon. 3. The MD is absolute murder to armor-tanked medframes and scouts in general- a fact which he has continued to ignore. 4. That another poster's point about MD scourges is that the MD will become the ultimate omni-gun of DUST (all hail Masshole 514!) if the sentinel splash resist bonus is removed. But hey, hiding behind the mods? That's pretty classy too. /still sipping the distilled tears of KA24DERT EDIT: after reviewing your fixes of math, I really don't see what the big deal about the TTK difference is. So a MD takes about 3 times longer to kill a dedicated shield suit than the ACR takes to kill a dedicated armor suit? Yeah, when you try to compare those particular instances to prove your position, that's called bias, as in, the opposite of being objective. If it was so good it would be the go-to PC weapon in the game, since it's pretty much Armor tank and max HP. Unfortuantely it's not even seeing use in pubs, and for good reason. No one wants to hear that "support weapon" bullshit when you can kill everything with a standard Rifle with far less optimal management. Just look at the Flaylock which is suffering the same problem, it cant kill heavies in addition to it being a sub-optimal sidearm, so no one uses it.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 102	Posted - 2014.11.10 06:56:00 - [123] - Quote Once again, some people simply do not know how to read. So I'll break it down for you: MD are currently in a pretty good spot; if you know what you're doing, you can be incredibly dangerous and exert insane control over an area by making it a case of "if you decide to walk around this spot, you will die". In spambush this is obviously of very limited use... but hey, that's spambush. The issue comes with the idea that the MD should be a viable "slayer" weapon... and it shouldn't. Because if it was, then it ultimately outclasses the rifles in that role. It's happened before in DUST's history. Let's not let it happen again. Moreover, do keep in mind that the MD fulfills a very different role to the racial rifles. Now to clarify (because you are dumb)- the MD is in a good spot right now. If the OP's stupid idea were to be put into the game, then the MD suddenly becomes the omni-weapon, the gun that can do it all. It can blap scouts, it can massacre armor medframes and severely impair the ability of shield medframes to be useful, and you can kill heavies with it. Season with AV grenades and you suddenly have a fit that laughs off nearly everything- and the things it can't lolblap you can at least hurt badly enough to make them decide "hmm, I think I'm going to BUGGER OFF RIGHT NOW". That's the point that is being made. The MD, somewhat like the HMG, is balanced very nearly on a knife edge. Just a little bit in either direction sends it plummeting into the depths of brokenness- whether said brokenness is of the UP or OP variety doesn't end up being particularly relevant, merely the fact that said position is just the slightest nudge away from either extreme. Which is a niche support weapon that is fantastically effective in skilled hands, since it does something that the racial rifles really can't do (that's area denial, BTW). As for the Flaylock... if the chosen benchmark of performance is "can it kill a heavy", then I suggest that you're using the wrong benchmarks. Heavies are, by design, intended to be extremely difficult to kill. Unfortunately, this means they should never have been placed into a sustained CQC dominance role, so there's a lot of issues that end up stemming from that. Breakin Stuff has an excellent proposal on how that happened, why it's bad, and what we should do to fix it. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2133	Posted - 2014.11.10 07:03:00 - [124] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Since sentinels cannot avoid (whatever racial) rifle, they simply soak up the damage. That's cute that you think a sentinel can actually survive against a rifle user when out in the open. If this is a "CQB" related thing, then I'd argue there's more issue with the HMG being (stupidly) designed as a CQB dominance weapon than rifle effectiveness against heavies of any stripe. KA24DERT wrote: Since sentinels cannot avoid the shotgun, they simply soak up the damage. ........You're either delusional or stupid if you really believe that. KA24DERT wrote: What's that? those higher DPS weapons are only resisted by CERTAIN RACES of sentinel? And resisted by much less than the 25% against the LOW DPS mass driver? Craziness. You generally picked bad examples, and moreover ignored the fact that the MD, much like the LR, is not a "slayer" weapon, but a "support" weapon. That's not to say that MD/LR user can't rack up the kills in rapid order and to great heights of murder-death-kill-ness, but rather that the intended role that the weapon is supposed to fulfill is much more complex than simply "kill stuff". Do keep in mind that MDs are pretty nearly instadeath for scouts (which is nice) and very deadly against medframes of all stripes (also nice)... so the fact that you lose "DPS" against heavies is pretty much working as intended. Due to the idiotic decision to chain heavies to CQB conditions, if you try to wander into that with a MD and duel a heavy... then you pretty much deserve to die. If, OTOH, you find a heavy in the open... you can outrun them, and you can outrange them, and the "ring around the rock" trick that can be used to try to get some amount of cover between yourself and your enemy no longer works, since you can pretty much punt the shells around and over said object that is being used as cover. If you can't kill a heavy in this case, then I'd say that the heavy is just hugging cover... in which case you basically have killed him, since he's stuck there and can be of no use to his team. Finally, DPS is a poor measure of performance to use with the MD, given that it has a high(-ish) alpha and also has a generally large-to-obscene amount of splash area. There's also the issue that back before heavies had a splash damage resist, it was quite common for somebody to run up, flux and then proceed to bunny hop around a heavy while killing them with MD splash. As someone who had to endure that... it was frustrating in the extreme because it was nearly impossible to fight back against and almost always resulted in my death. Even after the HP buff that heavies got (way back when the Amarr heavy was the only heavy), this is exactly the sort of thing that would happen... over, and over, and over again. Of course, that's without going into the very long period of time when locus grenades were instablap murderballs to heavies, given that a heavy is too slow to try and run away from a grenade... or run away at all really. There's also the slight issue that the bonus/tagging system simply wouldn't support the kind of granularity you seem to think it would. In layman's terms, this means that no, we cannot give a bonus that provides resists to only REs/grenades instead of the current splash damage bonus. Of course, given the history of MDs and heavies, right now I think I am going to just sit back and drink your tears as the fine vintage that they are. /sips wineglass of KA24DERT's tears Refreshing... very refreshing. You... I like you. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 766	Posted - 2014.11.10 07:22:00 - [125] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Once again, some people simply do not know how to read. So I'll break it down for you: MD are currently in a pretty good spot; if you know what you're doing, you can be incredibly dangerous and exert insane control over an area by making it a case of "if you decide to walk around this spot, you will die". In spambush this is obviously of very limited use... but hey, that's spambush. The issue comes with the idea that the MD should be a viable "slayer" weapon... and it shouldn't. Because if it was, then it ultimately outclasses the rifles in that role. It's happened before in DUST's history. Let's not let it happen again. Moreover, do keep in mind that the MD fulfills a very different role to the racial rifles. Now to clarify (because you are dumb)- the MD is in a good spot right now. If the OP's stupid idea were to be put into the game, then the MD suddenly becomes the omni-weapon, the gun that can do it all. It can blap scouts, it can massacre armor medframes and severely impair the ability of shield medframes to be useful, and you can kill heavies with it. Season with AV grenades and you suddenly have a fit that laughs off nearly everything- and the things it can't lolblap you can at least hurt badly enough to make them decide "hmm, I think I'm going to BUGGER OFF RIGHT NOW". That's the point that is being made. The MD, somewhat like the HMG, is balanced very nearly on a knife edge. Just a little bit in either direction sends it plummeting into the depths of brokenness- whether said brokenness is of the UP or OP variety doesn't end up being particularly relevant, merely the fact that said position is just the slightest nudge away from either extreme. Which is a niche support weapon that is fantastically effective in skilled hands, since it does something that the racial rifles really can't do (that's area denial, BTW). As for the Flaylock... if the chosen benchmark of performance is "can it kill a heavy", then I suggest that you're using the wrong benchmarks. Heavies are, by design, intended to be extremely difficult to kill. Unfortunately, this means they should never have been placed into a sustained CQC dominance role, so there's a lot of issues that end up stemming from that. Breakin Stuff has an excellent proposal on how that happened, why it's bad, and what we should do to fix it. Haven't we already been through this MD fear mongering? The bullshit has already been refuted. Day 1 of Aim Assist + hit confirm patch, and the MD was dropped like a hot potato, never to be used except by the dedicated, and it has stayed like that even with Aim Assist fixed. The MD hasn't received a single nerf, and this was long before the Heavy buff, and I don't recall any Heavy complaining about MDs then. The problem was Aiming and not the MD.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4776	Posted - 2014.11.10 09:03:00 - [126] - Quote Restoration of MD utility is simple. Reduce heavy spam. Regardless of whether Rattati uses his way (scorching the HMG with heat) or my method (eviction of heavies from CQC) the mass driver is fixed by default. The problem isn't that heavies resist them. The problem is that there is always eight of the jackasses clustered where you need to attack. If the sentinel stops being the go-to murder gumby then the MD becomes a useful support tool again that requires a sentinel to engage and shut down rather than a tool simply negated by the sheer NUMBER of leadbutt lardasses constantly on the field. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 724	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:19:00 - [127] - Quote Our champion has cried FOUL! He demands a more even match, the Caldari Sentinel was too stacked. Bring forth the Amarr Sentinel! Sentinel ak.0, Brick Tank. 552.6 shield 1344 armor vs Commando mk.0, Freedom Mass Driver, two dmg mods Splash: 229.03 DPS (125.9665 with sentinel+shield resists) LetGÇÖs go again! 5 shots till shields are gone. Armor time. weGÇÖre at 1267 armor now. DPS goes to 217.5785. Pop! 1049.4215 reload 7.5 seconds Pop! 820.3915 Pop! 602.813 Pop! 385.2345 Pop! 167.656 Pop! DEAD at 11.5! Hmm, odd. Seems like the armor stacked Amarr Sntinel did just as well as he did against the shield stacked Caldari Sentinel. Of note is that Combat Rifle took 3.2 seconds to kill the same ak.0, which has armor resists to the Combat Rifle. Maybe 25% Sentinel resist to Mass Driver splash for both Shield and Armor is a bit much? Maybe one of the lowest DPS weapons in the game should not be nerfed any more than it already is? Who knows, itGÇÖs a giant mystery to many!
Kaughst Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 781	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:35:00 - [128] - Quote I wouldn't mind either way. The MD is due for a splash radius buff. Don't think about that, think about all the money.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4776	Posted - 2014.11.10 10:35:00 - [129] - Quote Where the hell are you getting the idea that the mass driver was in line for a nerf? And by the way. My EXO-5 does more than 175 splash, thanks. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 146	Posted - 2014.11.10 23:14:00 - [130] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Finally, DPS is a poor measure of performance to use with the MD, given that it has a high(-ish) alpha and also has a generally large-to-obscene amount of splash area. Just noting that describing the MD as an alpha weapon is a bit of a gross simplification, since a RR user and I can open fire at the same time, and he can shoot me dead before my first round hits him. How about calling it a high Beta or Gamma weapon? I agree that balancing the MD is tricky. However who is getting killed by MDs too often? Are MDs producing even 1/5th as many kills as shotguns? There is room for a tiny buff. Not jumping back on the buff/nerf rollercoaster, just something small, like increasing the base splash for the Exo5 from 4.0 to 4.2 or something similarly slight. That might help me marginally increase my performance against scouts from horrible to just "disadvantaged." Heavies are easy to deal with, as an MD wielding logi, in comparison to scouts. All the above is IMHO/experience of course. Better and worse players than me may have wildly different experiences. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 103	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:04:00 - [131] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Our champion has cried FOUL! He demands a more even match, the Caldari Sentinel was too stacked. Bring forth the Amarr Sentinel! snips maths I admit some surprise that the result is the same as the CalSent. However, you are still ignoring the fact that the MD is still delicious explodinating murder to all armor mediums and 90% of scouts. MDs are not slayer weapons in the slightest, your desired change would bring them perilously close to that. I remember when MDs were one of the most brokenly powerful weapons in the game. It was not fun, and I will fight tooth, nail, and blade to see that it never happens again. Justin Tymes wrote: Haven't we already been through this MD fear mongering? The bullshit has already been refuted. Day 1 of Aim Assist + hit confirm patch, and the MD was dropped like a hot potato, never to be used except by the dedicated, and it has stayed like that even with Aim Assist fixed. The MD hasn't received a single nerf, and this was long before the Heavy buff, and I don't recall any Heavy complaining about MDs then. The problem was Aiming and not the MD. My point is not that the MD is brokenly powerful right now. My point is that the MD has historically been a weapon that doesn't take much to make it either useless or the omniweapon. Considering that I endured the MD supremacy days after Uprising's release, I will fight to make sure that that never happens again. I will, however, also fight to make sure that the MD is not nerfed from its current state, which is IMO if not perfect, nearly there. Breakin Stuff wrote: Restoration of MD utility is simple. Reduce heavy spam. Regardless of whether Rattati uses his way (scorching the HMG with heat) or my method (eviction of heavies from CQC) the mass driver is fixed by default. The problem isn't that heavies resist them. The problem is that there is always eight of the jackasses clustered where you need to attack. If the sentinel stops being the go-to murder gumby then the MD becomes a useful support tool again that requires a sentinel to engage and shut down rather than a tool simply negated by the sheer NUMBER of leadbutt lardasses constantly on the field. I think that Breakin has hit upon the real crux of the issue; there are simply not enough medframes fighting over points to make the MD a desirable choice. Incidentally, this means that the issue isn't even stat related, it's a meta issue. What I mean (for the dumb people... like the OP) is that the real issue at hand is that there are too many heavies fighting eyeball-to-eyeball over points, and not enough mediums doing the same. Due to various other factors in the sentinel suit's current intended role, this means that MDs are perceived as being bad. Protip: MDs are pretty awesome. Any changes necessary have far more to do with what the Sentinel suit's role should be. I believe I mentioned that Breakin has a fantastic thread on the subject. Gyn Wallace wrote: Just noting that describing the MD as an alpha weapon is a bit of a gross simplification, since a RR user and I can open fire at the same time, and he can shoot me dead before my first round hits him. How about calling it a high Beta or Gamma weapon? I agree that balancing the MD is tricky. However who is getting killed by MDs too often? Are MDs producing even 1/5th as many kills as shotguns? There is room for a tiny buff. Not jumping back on the buff/nerf rollercoaster, just something small, like increasing the base splash for the Exo5 from 4.0 to 4.2 or something similarly slight. That might help me marginally increase my performance against scouts from horrible to just "disadvantaged." Heavies are easy to deal with, as an MD wielding logi, in comparison to scouts. All the above is IMHO/experience of course. Better and worse players than me may have wildly different experiences. Fair enough, it is grossly simplifying the MD's mechanics to describe it as such. However, it doesn't really change that the OP has a stupid idea and should feel bad about posting it. In terms of MD capability... the only thing that has ever really bugged me is the whole thing about how the regular and Breach only hold six shots, when the ammo drum has eight cylinders. I tried to use the Assault version, and the blast radius is enormous and awesome... but the damage left something to be desired. Kind of wish they'd just give the regular and Breach an extra two rounds of clip capacity, just to appease my OCD. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 728	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:38:00 - [132] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: I admit some surprise that the result is the same as the CalSent. However, you are still ignoring the fact that the MD is still delicious explodinating murder to all armor mediums and 90% of scouts. If the MD is exploding armor mediums and 90% of scouts, then the Rifles are atomizing them, and then breaking those atoms down to subatomic particles. And don't start with that "support weapon" nonsense. Mass Driver isn't a webber, damage enhancer, or any other type of status ailment. It's a weapon. Mass Drivers are weak, empirically undeniably weak, and this 25% nerf should NOT apply to them.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14398	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:44:00 - [133] - Quote Are you attempting (pardon my ignorance too much thread) that only Massdriver explosive resistance should be exempt from this or that all explosive resistance should be removed from sentinels? "HeGÇÖs sorry. ThatGÇÖs his sorry faceGÇª. Just keep quiet for now and maybe you'll get through this." -Kador Ouryon
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:53:00 - [134] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Victor Moody Stahl wrote: I admit some surprise that the result is the same as the CalSent. However, you are still ignoring the fact that the MD is still delicious explodinating murder to all armor mediums and 90% of scouts. If the MD is exploding armor mediums and 90% of scouts, then the Rifles are atomizing them, and then breaking those atoms down to subatomic particles. And don't start with that "support weapon" nonsense. Mass Driver isn't a webber, damage enhancer, or any other type of status ailment. It's a weapon. Mass Drivers are weak, empirically undeniably weak, and this 25% nerf should NOT apply to them. My rifle, regardless of how good my aim is, can only ever shoot one target at a time.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 728	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:03:00 - [135] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Are you attempting (pardon my ignorance too much thread) that only Massdriver explosive resistance should be exempt from this or that all explosive resistance should be removed from sentinels? Mass Driver should be exempt. I think the RE and Grenade resistance is OK because they do 1750 and 600 splash damage. But the Mass Driver does, at best, 229.03 splash damage.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14399	Posted - 2014.11.11 01:06:00 - [136] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: True Adamance wrote: Are you attempting (pardon my ignorance too much thread) that only Massdriver explosive resistance should be exempt from this or that all explosive resistance should be removed from sentinels? Mass Driver should be exempt. I think the RE and Grenade resistance is OK because they do 1750 and 600 splash damage. But the Mass Driver does, at best, 229.03 splash damage. I understand now. "HeGÇÖs sorry. ThatGÇÖs his sorry faceGÇª. Just keep quiet for now and maybe you'll get through this." -Kador Ouryon
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 767	Posted - 2014.11.11 04:04:00 - [137] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Victor Moody Stahl wrote: I admit some surprise that the result is the same as the CalSent. However, you are still ignoring the fact that the MD is still delicious explodinating murder to all armor mediums and 90% of scouts. If the MD is exploding armor mediums and 90% of scouts, then the Rifles are atomizing them, and then breaking those atoms down to subatomic particles. And don't start with that "support weapon" nonsense. Mass Driver isn't a webber, damage enhancer, or any other type of status ailment. It's a weapon. Mass Drivers are weak, empirically undeniably weak, and this 25% nerf should NOT apply to them. My rifle, regardless of how good my aim is, can only ever shoot one target at a time. Which is pretty meaningless when Rifles are downing up to 3 units faster than a MD could, especially if at least one of those units is a Heavy, which is standard conditions. Any more is a Merry Christmas scenario, since you are then facing bad players. And anything can kill bad players.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 147	Posted - 2014.11.11 17:17:00 - [138] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: I admit some surprise that the result is the same as the CalSent. However, you are still ignoring the fact that the MD is still delicious explodinating murder to all armor mediums and 90% of scouts. I don't get that last bit at all. If the argument is that Sentinals should be the Achilles' heel of MD users, because the MD is so awesome at killing mediums and scouts, why do I have a wildly worse track record against scouts than against heavies? I don't think my gun game is completely terrible; I think I'm solidly mediocre as far as my gun game goes. Scouts wreck me. They can jump across the diameter of my splash. They can close so quickly, so stealthily, that getting in close where the MD is suicidally weak is easy for them. MD ammo is so restricted that most side arms can kill more enemies before running out of ammo; I can't just spray and pray MD rounds wherever there might be a scout. If I did, an enemy doesn't have to wait long before I'm out of ammo. If the MD is supposed to be effective against Medium suits, the "wait and see" approach might work out just fine. I agree that if there were more mediums and fewer scouts on the field, a MD user's playtime would become a little less morbid. If the next couple of hotfixes improve mediums enough, I agree that there might not be any need for a MD buff. The idea that the heavy is supposed to be the MD's weakness in a game of rock-paper-scissors, because MDs beat scouts, is just contrary to my experience with scouts. I'd LOVE to see some stats to place the MD's recent performance in perspective. I'd like to know whether my experience of having an easier time killing heavies than scouts is atypical. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 104	Posted - 2014.11.12 00:18:00 - [139] - Quote Well, MD's aren't good against sneaky-bastard scouts who are speed tanked, because as you said, they tend to close very fast. However, light-assault scouts who abuse the lack of strafe inertia* get wrecked pretty hard because they can't outstrafe splash damage, and even when tanked out they tend the EXO-5 will still put a massive hurt on them. People who use the scout as a light assault tend to be bricking their suits a little bit less, so they end up with less raw HP than an Assault. As such, the 140+ splash of a MD tends to hurt a lot for such a suit. I personally find that the MD is the best weapon a medframe can carry to fight scouts- there isn't as much precision aim involved and it's impossible to outstrafe splash damage. Of course, my experience seems to (weirdly enough) be the opposite of yours- on the occasions I pull out the MD, I tend to fair worse against heavies (because my logi suit has paper for armor plating) and better against scouts... though only by a small degree, I admit. Most of my personal experience of MD AmLogi vs heavy tends to be that I just have difficulty popping out long enough to dump splash before I take a lot of damage... but that I feel has more to do with logi balance and the meta aspect of the current role of heavies than any hard number balance between MDs and heavies. Finally, heavies just need to not be in CQC unless they're toting the Burst HMG, since it has legitimate weaknesses- particularly when faced with multiple enemies at the same time. Two people in short order can be handled, as long as you can get a 1v1 going; once it's 2v1 against the Burst HMG user though, it gets really hard. *The lack of strafe inertia is what allows many scouts and some shield-medframe users to strafe side-to-side (or any other pattern) ridiculously fast. It's not actually any kind of KB/M "A-D A-D" stupidity, as is often wrongly supposed, but a lack of strafe inertia. Incidentally, strafe inertia would also mean that any complete about KB/M super-strafers is instantly nullified, since it would be impossible to instantly change direction as is often (wrongly) implied of KB/M users. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 729	Posted - 2014.11.13 01:30:00 - [140] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Kensai Dragon wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Victor Moody Stahl wrote: I admit some surprise that the result is the same as the CalSent. However, you are still ignoring the fact that the MD is still delicious explodinating murder to all armor mediums and 90% of scouts. If the MD is exploding armor mediums and 90% of scouts, then the Rifles are atomizing them, and then breaking those atoms down to subatomic particles. And don't start with that "support weapon" nonsense. Mass Driver isn't a webber, damage enhancer, or any other type of status ailment. It's a weapon. Mass Drivers are weak, empirically undeniably weak, and this 25% nerf should NOT apply to them. My rifle, regardless of how good my aim is, can only ever shoot one target at a time. Which is pretty meaningless when Rifles are downing up to 3 units faster than a MD could, especially if at least one of those units is a Heavy, which is standard conditions. Any more is a Merry Christmas scenario, since you are then facing bad players. And anything can kill bad players. Actually even hitting 3 decent players at a time with the MD is pretty silly TBH. Basically this. And then as I mentioned earlier, once they wise up and start shooting, those 3 unit's combined damage output is will be close to 1000 DPS.

Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 445	Posted - 2014.11.13 04:46:00 - [141] - Quote For those of you against removing the explosive damage resistance, against RE's, and against shotguns.... how exactly am I supposed to kill proto logi train again?...... I'll wait....? In light and medium suits we can't simply uproot the logi train, especially in PC, with rail rifles?! The mass driver is OBVIOUSLY useless in the OP's example above where the militia rail rifle is actually more useful??? Wtf??? Proto mass driver from above should easily be the go to for dropping heavies entrenched in areas, but they have this crazy resistance. The OP suggested that the bonus does not apply to mass drivers while still applying to grenades and other explosive damage. Is that so bad?? If so I'm all ears for a solution to heavy spam other than shotguns, remotes, and..... well that's all I got currently?! "Anybody order chaos?"
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 445	Posted - 2014.11.13 05:01:00 - [142] - Quote The lack of strafe inertia is what allows many scouts and some shield-medframe users to strafe side-to-side (or any other pattern) ridiculously fast. It's not actually any kind of KB/M "A-D A-D" stupidity, as is often wrongly supposed, but a lack of strafe inertia. Incidentally, strafe inertia would also mean that any complete about KB/M super-strafers is instantly nullified, since it would be impossible to instantly change direction as is often (wrongly) implied of KB/M users.[/quote] The lack of strafe inertia in conjunction with the functionality of kb/m. Tried it, and can easily see the difference. You can't do that with a ps3 controller. The kb/m has it's disadvantages, but strafing isn't one of them. Hands down the best strafe RS are kb/m, and I'd put money on it. The argument isn't nullified just because you say it is?! All one has to do is plug a keyboard up for themselves. You don't even need practice, and with practice you could be really good at it in no time. Not to get off topic, but this needed some addressing. Yes the inertia, or lack thereof, I s the issue regardless of controller choice. However, the keyboard really capitalizes on this more so than ps3 controllers. So much that you can almost notice it right away when it is done. Sorry for getting off topic, and am not trying to argue. There are simply no facts truly supporting either side of the argument other than player testimonial so don't say the argument is "nullified"?! We may not all be vets, but we're not blind or born yesterday. "Anybody order chaos?"
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 65	Posted - 2014.11.13 05:27:00 - [143] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: The lack of strafe inertia is what allows many scouts and some shield-medframe users to strafe side-to-side (or any other pattern) ridiculously fast. It's not actually any kind of KB/M "A-D A-D" stupidity, as is often wrongly supposed, but a lack of strafe inertia. Incidentally, strafe inertia would also mean that any complete about KB/M super-strafers is instantly nullified, since it would be impossible to instantly change direction as is often (wrongly) implied of KB/M users. The lack of strafe inertia in conjunction with the functionality of kb/m. Tried it, and can easily see the difference. You can't do that with a ps3 controller. The kb/m has it's disadvantages, but strafing isn't one of them. Hands down the best strafe RS are kb/m, and I'd put money on it. The argument isn't nullified just because you say it is?! All one has to do is plug a keyboard up for themselves. You don't even need practice, and with practice you could be really good at it in no time. Not to get off topic, but this needed some addressing. Yes the inertia, or lack thereof, I s the issue regardless of controller choice. However, the keyboard really capitalizes on this more so than ps3 controllers. So much that you can almost notice it right away when it is done. Sorry for getting off topic, and am not trying to argue. There are simply no facts truly supporting either side of the argument other than player testimonial so don't say the argument is "nullified"?! We may not all be vets, but we're not blind or born yesterday. [/quote] Uh, wrong thread?
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.13 05:49:00 - [144] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: For those of you against removing the explosive damage resistance, against RE's, and against shotguns.... how exactly am I supposed to kill proto logi train again?...... I'll wait....? In light and medium suits we can't simply uproot the logi train, especially in PC, with rail rifles?! The mass driver is OBVIOUSLY useless in the OP's example above where the militia rail rifle is actually more useful??? Wtf??? Proto mass driver from above should easily be the go to for dropping heavies entrenched in areas, but they have this crazy resistance. The OP suggested that the bonus does not apply to mass drivers while still applying to grenades and other explosive damage. Is that so bad?? If so I'm all ears for a solution to heavy spam other than shotguns, remotes, and..... well that's all I got currently?! Well, I present you with two revolutionary ideas: 1. Shoot the bloody logi instead of the heavy. 2. Support Breakin Stuff's Sentinel battle role proposal. Other than that, I don't see any problems right now. After all, if heavies are no longer the sustainable CQC powerhouses they are currently, instead being shifted to a long-range fire support role, then MDs are suddenly fixed without screwing over heavies. Bradric Banewolf wrote: snipped fail quote and whining about KB/M strafe So, I'm going to just leave the fact that I use a KB/M for nearly every role in the game. The only time I set aside my KB/M for a DS3 is if I want to fly derpships. I can say confidently that I have never been able to abuse any supposed KB/M strafe advantage. And you bet I've bloody well tried too. Considering just how, quite frankly, shite the KB/M controls are- and have been since bloody Uprising 1.0- then I have absolutely tried to squeeze every advantage out of it that I could. And it's never worked. Not once. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4932	Posted - 2014.11.13 10:56:00 - [145] - Quote Mass driver is my go-to weapon for killing scouts and assaults whenever I am not using a sentinel. I have been rather heavily gravitating towards minassault and minmando because the speed combined with explosions things get obnoxious fast. Dealing with one sentinel? Yeah ok its a pain in the ass. But that's generally why I'm rocking SMG as my secondary or the CR on my minmando. Scouts... I started running the mass driver again for the first time since replication in a pubmatch on a lark. I had gotten MD 3 (out of habit) and panic-fired at a scout that knifed a sentinel in front of me. Instapop. So I figured it was a fluke. Same scout. Got lucky and turned around just in time. Fired and he died. I got lucky. But I was running a shield stack at the time. So I started thinking and then the began. So I tested it. Started watching the radar for disappeaing blue dots then the killfeed. Was it perfect? No. But it was hilarious. As a bonus the weapon was mugging assaults like a champ. Oh look a sentinel at 40m. Hello mister magsec! How are you? I'm fine breakin have a +50. Breakin Stuff (Militia MagSec SMG) Moron Oh look, more assault suits. Back to the bombflinger. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 730	Posted - 2014.11.13 23:12:00 - [146] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: ... how exactly am I supposed to kill proto logi train again?...... I'll wait....? ... Well, I present you with two revolutionary ideas: 1. Shoot the bloody logi instead of the heavy. The effective TTK for a mass driver against a Sentinel/Logi unit is the same, if not a bit longer due to reps, than the TTK against the Sentinel by himself. So we're still talking above 10 second TTK. As I and other people have pointed out, that's less effective than many Militia rifles, which is atrocious being that I calculated the Mass Driver TTK with a stacked prototype build. A stacked rifle build can frag a sentinel and switch to a sidearm while the logi still has his rep tool out. None of that bolsters the argument for a %25 splash damage nerf to both Shield AND Armor, where the other sentinel resists only go up to %15 for Shield OR Armor.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.14 03:04:00 - [147] - Quote You do realize that it simply is not possible, with the current engine and tagging system, to say "heavies have a resist to grenades and REs, but not MDs". Seriously, there is no way the engine can handle it. Look at swarms, for example- they deal explosive damage, and so get a damage bonus (that's actually fairly negligible) on the Minmatar commando, for a Caldari weapon. There are only two ways to give the CalMando a swarm bonus- either give the CalMando an explosive+hybrid rail damage bonus (bad), or change the damage type of swarms to hybrid-rail (not bad). Literally, it is impossible for the Swarms to remain in their current state and be bonused on Calmandos and not Minmandos. There's also the fact that you still haven't stated why it takes just as long to kill just the logi with the MD, when logis are the definition of "paper armor" in the current patch state. You have also not addressed the fact that MDs are death incarnate to armor medframes, very deadly to shield medframes, and a great big "screw you" to scout scrubs abusing inertialess strafe mechanics. You also completely ignored the idea that Breakin's proposal to remove Sentinels from CQC by changing the HMG's role would actually be a stealth buff to the MD- there would be more medframes in the MD's preferred engagement areas, leading to greater effectiveness, without ever touching MDs or Sentinel suit bonuses. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4988	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:53:00 - [148] - Quote He won't acknowledge any other points. He's offended and on a mission. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 310	Posted - 2014.11.14 10:10:00 - [149] - Quote Splash resistance on heavies is fine, hit them in the face and they go down. This message is coming from your friendly neighbourhood Masshole! HTFU Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing...
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 730	Posted - 2014.11.14 11:29:00 - [150] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Splash resistance on heavies is fine, hit them in the face and they go down. This message is coming from your friendly neighbourhood Masshole! HTFU BTW, carpetbombing with an assault MD might not do the trick... and against Caldari Sents the MD is the wrong weapon!!! If you can see the heavy, the heavy can see you, and you will melt before your 2nd round even lands. If you're out of the HMG's range, now they can sidestep the MD round. Yes, I can kill terrible heavies who are stupid and don't know they should shoot at red dots. But anything can kill those players. Also, I drew out a scenario of bringing the wrong weapon against a sentinel with a combat rifle, and it worked out better than the MD vs the wrong sentinel. 3.2 second TTK vs 10.5. Sorry Masshole, the resist is broken.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 730	Posted - 2014.11.14 11:32:00 - [151] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: You do realize that it simply is not possible, with the current engine and tagging system, to say "heavies have a resist to grenades and REs, but not MDs". I've clearly laid out that 25% is too much for MD. It's a real issue. Changes can be made to the engine to fix the issue. Much loftier theorycrafting is posted on these forums without "not possible" coming up. Quote: There's also the fact that you still haven't stated why it takes just as long to kill just the logi with the MD, when logis are the definition of "paper armor" in the current patch state. Your scenario mentioned a Heavy+Logi train, in many situations they'll both be in splash range, so I treated them as a unit in terms of TTK. But treating them separately, after killing the Logi I still have to watch 10 seconds go by to kill the Heavy with splash, who more than likely has a heads up because his Logi just died. Quote: You have also not addressed the fact that MDs are death incarnate to armor medframes, very deadly to shield medframes, and a great big "screw you" to scout scrubs abusing inertialess strafe mechanics. Whatever type of death the MD is to medium armor frames, Rifles of all types are a much faster death, even those rifles that are "weak" against armor. I've addressed that multiple times. Quote: You also completely ignored the idea that Breakin's proposal to remove Sentinels from CQC by changing the HMG's role would actually be a stealth buff to the MD- there would be more medframes in the MD's preferred engagement areas, leading to greater effectiveness, without ever touching MDs or Sentinel suit bonuses. If Breakin's change was to place Sentinels on the Moon, I still wouldn't want a 25% vs Sentinels. What if I wanted to go for a stroll in my Moon suit? Where heavies are placed does not change the fact that 25% resistance is the highest resist of any infantry to any light weapon, and the light weapon affected is one of the lowest DPS weapons in the game.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 315	Posted - 2014.11.14 11:47:00 - [152] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: If you can see the heavy, the heavy can see you, and you will melt before your 2nd round even lands. If you're out of the HMG's range, now they can sidestep the MD round. Yes, I can kill terrible heavies who are stupid and don't know they should shoot at red dots. But anything can kill those players. Also, I drew out a scenario of bringing the wrong weapon against a sentinel with a combat rifle, and it worked out better than the MD vs the wrong sentinel. 3.2 second TTK vs 10.5. Sorry Masshole, the resist is broken. Well, like all "specialty weapons", the massdriver has its plusses and severe shortcomings. The MD is no 1v1 infantry weapon. You have to use it as such. 1. Stay behind your own heavies. Lob the rounds over your teammates and soften the heavies with a mixture of direct and splash hits. Your grunts will do the rest. 2. If you get caught 1v1 well you die if the heavy has you in range. If not or cover is near, use it. I have been chased by heavies and every time they come around the corner they get a round in the face, run again, repeat. 3. If you want even terms with a massdriver towards a heavy you have to get him in a place where he can't shoot you (range, cover) and pop in and out of cover to finish him. This might not always work, but thats the problem with a weapon that can damage multiple targets at the same time. It needs shortcomings in other areas. I just think the MD is not for you. So go to the Market and buy something that suits you. Problem solved. Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing...
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 733	Posted - 2014.11.15 00:07:00 - [153] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: KA24DERT wrote: If you can see the heavy, the heavy can see you, and you will melt before your 2nd round even lands. If you're out of the HMG's range, now they can sidestep the MD round. Yes, I can kill terrible heavies who are stupid and don't know they should shoot at red dots. But anything can kill those players. Also, I drew out a scenario of bringing the wrong weapon against a sentinel with a combat rifle, and it worked out better than the MD vs the wrong sentinel. 3.2 second TTK vs 10.5. Sorry Masshole, the resist is broken. Well, like all "specialty weapons", the massdriver has its plusses and severe shortcomings. The MD is no 1v1 infantry weapon. You have to use it as such. 1. Stay behind your own heavies. Lob the rounds over your teammates and soften the heavies with a mixture of direct and splash hits. Your grunts will do the rest. 2. If you get caught 1v1 well you die if the heavy has you in range. If not or cover is near, use it. I have been chased by heavies and every time they come around the corner they get a round in the face, run again, repeat. 3. If you want even terms with a massdriver towards a heavy you have to get him in a place where he can't shoot you (range, cover) and pop in and out of cover to finish him. This might not always work, but thats the problem with a weapon that can damage multiple targets at the same time. It needs shortcomings in other areas. I just think the MD is not for you. So go to the Market and buy something that suits you. Problem solved. Cheers Yep, the mass driver has it's niche uses, requires clever use of cover, and creative plans of attack. It doesn't need a 25% nerf ON TOP of those constraints. The MD is doing just fine for me, except for when I go up against a Sentinel.
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3177	Posted - 2014.11.16 14:17:00 - [154] - Quote Bump, i like the idea, heavies already have an incredible amount of HP, there is no need to add further resistance to explosive stuff.
Powerh8er The Rainbow Effect 533	Posted - 2014.11.16 18:05:00 - [155] - Quote The heavy dropsuit dont exactly have many tricks and its not even hard to kill a heavy.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 735	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:52:00 - [156] - Quote Noticed something while taking a look at the Sentinel bonuses: Quote: Role Bonus(ALL SENTINELS): +5% damage resistance to splash damage per level. Caldari Sentinel Bonus: GÇó3% shield resistance to hybrid - blaster weapons per level. GÇó2% shield resistance to laser weapons per level. Gallente Sentinel Bonus: GÇó3% armor resistance to hybrid - railgun weapons per level. GÇó2% armor resistance to projectile weapons per level. Minmatar Sentinel Bonus: GÇó3% shield resistance to laser weapons per level. GÇó2% armor resistance to hybrid - blaster weapons per level. Amarr Sentinel Bonus: GÇó3% armor resistance to projectile weapons per level. GÇó2% shield resistance to hybrid - railgun weapons per level. As far as I can tell, The race-specific resists mainly exist to counter a suit's resist holes. The only exception being the Minmatar blaster resist to Armor, and the Amarr shield resist to Rail Rifles at 10% each(and that should probably be looked at). Aside from those 2 instances, the only other resist that stacks is the Sentinel-wide Splash Resistance, which on top of the 25% reduction to Armor, does 25% less to Shield (explosive's weakness). So a Rail Rifle user might have be wary around an Amarr sentinel, and an Assault rifle user should be careful around a Minmatar Sentinel. But a Mass Driver user should just start running from any Sentinel on the field. Is problem.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 125	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:25:00 - [157] - Quote I will once again plug Breakin Stuff's proposal about Sentinel battle role, because that would honestly fix every issue that MD users have with sentinels, because the sentinel would then be dominant in terrain conditions that MDs are subpar in anyways. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 735	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:45:00 - [158] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: I will once again plug Breakin Stuff's proposal about Sentinel battle role, because that would honestly fix every issue that MD users have with sentinels, because the sentinel would then be dominant in terrain conditions that MDs are subpar in anyways. So Breakin's proposal addresses the MD weakness against Sentinels by putting Sentinels in conditions that MDs are weak in? Dat Logic. His proposal does not negate the need for my request, and it's extremely uncourteous to keep spamming it.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 126	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:53:00 - [159] - Quote ...Actually, yes, "Dat Logic" is right. It's a surprisingly elegant solution, because a MD's weakness against heavies is only an issue because heavies are being spammed in areas that the MD is traditionally strong in. As I have mentioned before, the MD issue is purely a meta-related problem. There's also the fact that you seem to completely ignore the fact that it is impossible for a heavy to run away from any kind of splash-damage weapon. You think it's wrong that it takes you more than ten seconds to kill a heavy? From that heavy's point of view, he probably thinks it's wrong that you can kill him without him ever getting the chance to do anything more than shoot his gun wildly with the hopes of maybe putting a little bit of damage on you. Never forget that the MD can use that splash damage to hit around corners, and the arc to hit over or behind obstacles. As a part-time heavy, I can safely say that I will, if at all possible, avoid like the plague any position that has a MD user in a good overwatch spot, because I will take ridiculous amounts of damage, that I cannot avoid, because heavies are bloody slow. Three things left: one, "uncourteous" is not a word. The appropriate term is "discourteous". Two- why do you consider it "discourteous" for me to "spam" Breakin's proposal? It's an excellent idea, and also means that you'll have more things to shoot at that you can kill easily (since that's what you really want). Finally, your tears are still like a fine ambrosia of delicious enjoyment. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 735	Posted - 2014.11.18 02:04:00 - [160] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: You think it's wrong that it takes you more than ten seconds to kill a heavy? You think it's right? What other maxed-out prototype light weapon build takes 10 seconds to kill a sentinel? Quote: Three things left: one, "uncourteous" is not a word. The appropriate term is "discourteous". English is malleable, uncourteous is a word, and being a pedant is uncourteous. Being a wrong pedant makes you something else entirely. Quote: Finally, your tears are still like a fine ambrosia of delicious enjoyment. My tears come from a factually, mathematically unfair situation, which led me to create a thread containing math and facts to support my position. Your tears come from the inability to comprehend the vast mountain of obvious evidence to support my case, which leads you to post vague and often wrong statements, and pointless insults due to the impotence of your argument.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 808	Posted - 2014.11.21 05:46:00 - [161] - Quote As much fun as I'm having in my Minmando, I'd love to stop lugging around 2 damage mods and a Plasma Cannon to get over the Sentinel hump.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5216	Posted - 2014.11.21 08:24:00 - [162] - Quote No point arguing. OP will not accept any evidence or opinion as valid unless it is in lockstep with his own. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Espeon Bons Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 310	Posted - 2014.11.21 08:41:00 - [163] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: As much fun as I'm having in my Minmando, I'd love to stop lugging around 2 damage mods and a Plasma Cannon to get over the Sentinel hump. I say buff it to 40% resistance cuz **** remotes Redemption comes from changing who you are on the inside. Stain yourself with evil to defeat a greater evil.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 809	Posted - 2014.11.21 08:45:00 - [164] - Quote Espeon Bons wrote: KA24DERT wrote: As much fun as I'm having in my Minmando, I'd love to stop lugging around 2 damage mods and a Plasma Cannon to get over the Sentinel hump. I say buff it to 40% resistance cuz **** remotes The resistance to RE and Grenades should remain because of how high that alpha is, I just want the Mass Driver exempt.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5217	Posted - 2014.11.21 08:50:00 - [165] - Quote No. Because your mass driver will get nerfed again the instant you get what you want. They buffed it back up to useful because they added the resists. Mass drivers were nerfed because there was no dropsuit that could stand against them. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 809	Posted - 2014.11.21 08:53:00 - [166] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: No point arguing. OP will not accept any evidence or opinion as valid unless it is in lockstep with his own. Any evidence put forth will show the MD is a crap weapon, and that the sentinel bonus takes that crap and flushes it. And any opinion to the contrary can usually be refuted by comparing MD damage to the damage of an unbonused Militia rifle. The situation is illustrated very well, and I've responded to the majority of your points. After I refute your points, you keep advertising your CQC/Sentinel proposal, which is totally compatible with my proposal, and does not negate the need for my proposal.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui VEHICLEBUSTERS Demolitions and Logistics Corp . 1462	Posted - 2014.11.21 11:55:00 - [167] - Quote I use Mass Drivers and this is just a bad idea IMO . No elaboration but just some things are best left alone . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 339	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:06:00 - [168] - Quote Can you please stop the whining? I can't hear it anymore, maybe we should get out the big bottle for your tears. I'm running the MD almost exclusively, and I have no problems killing heavies when I play it smart. TTK is high, but that's OK! The MD is not supposed to be a good weapon against heavies END OF ARGUMENT! In case a dev reads this, please ignore and go on with important Problems in the game! Cheers Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 4670	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:08:00 - [169] - Quote Flux, then Drive. Or use the Plasma Cannon.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5229	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:18:00 - [170] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Flux, then Drive. Or use the Plasma Cannon. I just use a magsec at 35m. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 138	Posted - 2014.11.21 18:26:00 - [171] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: After I refute your points, you keep advertising your CQC/Sentinel proposal, which is totally compatible with my proposal, and does not negate the need for my proposal. To be fair, I'm the one doing that (and I am not related to Breakin). The only issue is that it then makes no bloody sense to combine the two proposals. Seriously, why should that be done? Further, you continue to ignore the fact that the MD can, in fact, kill a heavy without ever being shot at by using the splash damage to kill the heavy around a corner. You complain that you face a 10/11 second TTK using splash damage? Well screw you, because you can still kill that heavy without the heavy ever shooting at you. The heavy can never do that to you. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 819	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:03:00 - [172] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Further, you continue to ignore the fact that the MD can, in fact, kill a heavy without ever being shot at by using the splash damage to kill the heavy around a corner. I've addressed it at least once: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2371250#post2371250 TLDR 10 seconds is plenty of time for a heavy to figure out how to kill me.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 819	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:12:00 - [173] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: No. Because your mass driver will get nerfed again the instant you get what you want. They buffed it back up to useful because they added the resists. Mass drivers were nerfed because there was no dropsuit that could stand against them. Mass drivers were nerfed because CCP Devs had a little LAN party and felt the MD was OP. They did not base it on any real data or feedback. When they admitted as such, the MD community lambasted them and they backpedaled heavily(but still left it with a smaller radius and an altered trajectory).
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5238	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:18:00 - [174] - Quote TTK is too low on other suits. It's going to get nerfed if splash resistance goes away. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 832	Posted - 2014.11.24 20:43:00 - [175] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: TTK is too low on other suits. It's going to get nerfed if splash resistance goes away. That's just silly. If the TTK is too low on other suits under Mass Driver fire, it's MUCH lower under the fire of a Rifle. The Militia Assault Rifle does 412 DPS. The Prototype Mass Driver does 160 splash DPS. The MILITIA Assault rifle user can miss HALF THEIR SHOTS and still do more damage than a PROTOTYPE Mass Driver. There is no logical reason to nerf the MD as it stands against non-sentinel suits, and I've laid out plenty of points as to why the current sentinel resist is too high in regards to the Mass Driver.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 151	Posted - 2014.11.24 23:56:00 - [176] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: The effective TTK for a mass driver against a Sentinel/Logi unit is the same, if not a bit longer due to reps, than the TTK against the Sentinel by himself. So we're still talking above 10 second TTK. As I and other people have pointed out, that's less effective than many Militia rifles, which is atrocious being that I calculated the Mass Driver TTK with a stacked prototype build. A stacked rifle build can frag a sentinel and switch to a sidearm while the logi still has his rep tool out. None of that bolsters the argument for a %25 splash damage nerf to both Shield AND Armor, where the other sentinel resists only go up to %15 for Shield OR Armor. So, I was reading back through this thread (because it got a new post of stupid), and I saw this delicious little statement. Which comes down to saying "the TTK against a logi is the same as the TTK against a heavy". Which then leads us to several causes and the possibilities that they entail: 1. Logis somehow have the same durability as a heavy This presents its own conundrum: either the impossible has occurred and logis are once again able to tank as high as a heavy can, in which case why aren't we seeing the return of the slayer logi; OR Sentinels are too weak to MD fire. Kind of funny how this side works. It basically kills your entire thesis in one fell swoop. 2. OP is ass at using the MD If you are seriously unable to kill a logi faster than the leashed heavy... then quite frankly, you suck at DUST. It is statistically impossible for a logi to endure the same amount of MD fire as a heavy. Not only does logi lack the splash resist bonus that Sentinels boast, logis are unable to tank to the level of even an unfitted sentinel suit. This possibility pretty much says that you suck at MDs and should choose a different weapon. I'd also like to point out that the LR takes forever to kill armor-stacked heavies. So too does the ScR take a long time to kill armor-stacked heavies. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 832	Posted - 2014.11.25 05:16:00 - [177] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: KA24DERT wrote: The effective TTK for a mass driver against a Sentinel/Logi unit is the same, if not a bit longer due to reps, than the TTK against the Sentinel by himself. So we're still talking above 10 second TTK. As I and other people have pointed out, that's less effective than many Militia rifles, which is atrocious being that I calculated the Mass Driver TTK with a stacked prototype build. A stacked rifle build can frag a sentinel and switch to a sidearm while the logi still has his rep tool out. None of that bolsters the argument for a %25 splash damage nerf to both Shield AND Armor, where the other sentinel resists only go up to %15 for Shield OR Armor. So, I was reading back through this thread (because it got a new post of stupid), and I saw this delicious little statement. Which comes down to saying "the TTK against a logi is the same as the TTK against a heavy". Which then leads us to several causes and the possibilities that they entail: In response to the ever helpful suggestion that a MD user should "shoot the logi" attached to the Sentinel(which is a nice ProTip, but does nothing to help the MD against this resist), I wrote that the TTK of the Logi is a PORTION of the total TTK of the Logi+Sentinel unit. You still need to kill the Sentinel after you kill the Logi, and now we're back to dealing with the 45% resist. That does not mean the same as what you claim I said. You basically rephrased what I said to mean something entirely different, and then wrote an irrelevant wall of text around the invented notion. It's like you tried to make a strawman, but all you had was manure, but you loved your smelly poop-man so much that you still put it up anyway despite being covered in crap and flies. Quote: 2. OP is ass at using the MD My skill and performance with the MD has nothing to do with this resist being broken. Nice try though.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 151	Posted - 2014.11.25 06:30:00 - [178] - Quote Except that by that point it would be only a 25% resist (unless you're shooting at a shield heavy... in which case why is a logi chained to him?) because the heavy's shields will be down. A smart heavy will also fall back, at which point you have effectively done your job- the logi/heavy team is either dead or in retreat, and probably unwilling to push up again. It is often that case that heavies who have a dedicated rep logi will stack plates. This is actually rather dumb, IMO, as it makes a slow suit even slower, at which point the heavy must slowly, painfully waddle out of the murder-death-kill zone of you and your MD. Something that you continue to ignore, in fact, is that heavies are bloody slow. In fact, the Sentinel ak.0 with 4 Complex Plates has an amazing sprint speed of (drumroll) 4.37 m/s! There are at least a dozen suits that can walk faster than that, and probably half a dozen or more that can strafe faster than that. And that's not even considering that he's walking at a piddly 3 m/s. It will literally take him almost two entire seconds to completely move out of the splash radius of the Freedom MD. That's enough time to put 300+ damage onto him, which can be dealt to him even around corners, that he cannot fight back against. Especially considering a heavy who's logi is KIA will usually retreat... or die. Remember that the "heavy" part of a "logi+heavy team" will almost never fit reps of any kind. Keep in mind, once again, the MD is not a "slayer" weapon. It's an area denial/support weapon- it can and will kill people who are stupid, and especially so if the user is very competent in the use of the MD... but it is not intended to be the go-to "I want to kill all the things" weapon. And, just to reinforce it once more (with feeling!), a heavy is incapable of running away from splash damage. Especially when armor stacked (like your preferred example). Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 125	Posted - 2014.11.25 07:01:00 - [179] - Quote Dude, I run in heavy suits quite often. I'll tell you that my Sentinels die from MD, or at least they weaken me enough that I'm short work for his partner as I'm trying to get away. Hell, half the time I can't even tell where it's coming from and just run for whatever cover is closest until it stops hurting me, lol. Having the HUD light up with a big red circle doesn't really help locate you, and the guys shooting at me with MD are smart enough (or maybe just team oriented enough) to be hitting me while the rifles are in the area. If / when I take the time to find that blasted MD then I'm dead. He's definitely doing his job, weakening me and making sure I think about moving somewhere else. I'm really not seeing the point to the crying, it really seems to me that you're applying you're weapon incorrectly. KDR - Kill Die Repeat
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 203	Posted - 2014.11.25 07:51:00 - [180] - Quote CUSE TOWN333 wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. so why are you shooting at a heavy with a mass driver? Someone's gotta feed those red logis points, its a dirty job, but KA24DERT is up to the task. Mass Drivers and sentinels are fine as is imo (at least in terms of the explosive resists), Mass Drivers are the games only real indirect fire weapon, and its strong at keeping an area clear and supporting a push. They are also very good at kicking the snot out of scouts. So what if you run into a sentinel with a mass driver and he can fire back at you, you lose. Big deal. Lets talk about the **** in the game thats effectively uncounterable first before we go after this fringe case stuff thats not even really imbalanced. We can talk about cloaked/damped shotgun scouts or logi/heavy blobs or redline railgun tanks first. Please? Hell we can even talk about how remote explosives one shot every suit in the game regardless of meta level, and we mentioned that in this same thread. Anyone else think thats some BS? Because I sure do.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 832	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:37:00 - [181] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Mass Drivers and sentinels are fine as is imo (at least in terms of the explosive resists) Cool opinion bro, but explain to me how a 25% resist to shield and armor against one of the lowest damage light weapons in the game is "fine". The rifles do at least twice the DPS and get almost half the resist to only shield OR armor. Quote: So what if you run into a sentinel with a mass driver and he can fire back at you, you lose. Big deal. Lets talk about the ** in the game thats effectively uncounterable first before we go after this fringe case stuff thats not even really imbalanced. We can talk about ... logi/heavy blobs... So mass drivers being ineffective against sentinels aren't a problem, but sentinel blobs are a problem. Quote:** Hell we can even talk about how remote explosives one shot every suit in the game regardless of meta level, and we mentioned that in this same thread. Anyone else think thats some BS? Because I sure do. I'm one of the last few semi-competent massholes in the game, and I need to defend my weapon because there's nobody lef to do it. You can talk about your issues, and I can talk about mine, but don't try to say my issue isn't legitimate just because you hold it as a low priority.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 348	Posted - 2014.11.25 22:29:00 - [182] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: I'm one of the last few semi-competent massholes in the game... Everything you wrote so far, makes me think you are not... Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Megaman Trigger Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 133	Posted - 2014.11.26 01:19:00 - [183] - Quote Now mistake me if I'm wrong, but don't explosive weapons get a +20% vs Armour? That would mean a Sentinel without Shields only has a 5% resistance. This is, of course, ignoring Proficiency, which boosts the MD's damage vs Armour by a further 15%, meaning that the MD is getting +10% damage now. If that's a Min Commando, that's +20% with the level 5 skill. Is that an Enhanced Damage mod you have there? Well now, that's now +25% vs Armour. So, if my maths is correct, doesn't that mean a Freedom Mass Driver on a Min Commando deals 200 damage in splash vs Armour per round to any Sentinel? Against anything else you're looking at about 240 vs Armour (20% vs armour + 15% Prof 5 + 10% Min bonus + 5% EDM = +50%!) per round. Purifier. First Class.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 833	Posted - 2014.11.26 02:57:00 - [184] - Quote Megaman Trigger wrote: Now mistake me if I'm wrong, but don't explosive weapons get a +20% vs Armour? That would mean a Sentinel without Shields only has a 5% resistance. This is, of course, ignoring Proficiency, which boosts the MD's damage vs Armour by a further 15%, meaning that the MD is getting +10% damage now. If that's a Min Commando, that's +20% with the level 5 skill. Is that an Enhanced Damage mod you have there? Well now, that's now +25% vs Armour. So, if my maths is correct, doesn't that mean a Freedom Mass Driver on a Min Commando deals 200 damage in splash vs Armour per round to any Sentinel? Against anything else you're looking at about 240 vs Armour (20% vs armour + 15% Prof 5 + 10% Min bonus + 5% EDM = +50%!) per round. That looks about right. The effect on armor is kind of what the primary race specific sentinel-resists do, but much more severe (15% less projectile damage vs armor, in the case of the Amarr sentinel). However instead of lightly negating the splash damage bonus to armor, it totally nullifies them with 5% to spare. Now consider that this is NOT a race specific bonus, but a sentinel-wide bonus, and that it isn't just to armor, it's to shield as well(effectively 45%). This is what a targeted resist does in the case of the Combat Rifle: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2449662#post2449662 And the damage for that Combat Rifle is much higher than the estimated 240 for the MD.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 155	Posted - 2014.11.26 05:15:00 - [185] - Quote And said CR has more DPS anyways. Of course the ACR/CR is going to murder stuff faster, it's already got a higher DPS than the MD does. facepalm Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Megaman Trigger Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 133	Posted - 2014.11.26 12:14:00 - [186] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Megaman Trigger wrote: Now mistake me if I'm wrong, but don't explosive weapons get a +20% vs Armour? That would mean a Sentinel without Shields only has a 5% resistance. This is, of course, ignoring Proficiency, which boosts the MD's damage vs Armour by a further 15%, meaning that the MD is getting +10% damage now. If that's a Min Commando, that's +20% with the level 5 skill. Is that an Enhanced Damage mod you have there? Well now, that's now +25% vs Armour. So, if my maths is correct, doesn't that mean a Freedom Mass Driver on a Min Commando deals 200 damage in splash vs Armour per round to any Sentinel? Against anything else you're looking at about 240 vs Armour (20% vs armour + 15% Prof 5 + 10% Min bonus + 5% EDM = +50%!) per round. That looks about right. The effect on armor is kind of what the primary race specific sentinel-resists do, but much more severe (15% less projectile damage vs armor, in the case of the Amarr sentinel). However instead of lightly negating the splash damage bonus to armor, it totally nullifies them with 5% to spare. Now consider that this is NOT a race specific bonus, but a sentinel-wide bonus, and that it isn't just to armor, it's to shield as well(effectively 45%). This is what a targeted resist does in the case of the Combat Rifle: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2449662#post2449662 And the damage for that Combat Rifle is much higher than the estimated 240 for the MD. The Sentinel projectile resistance also nullifies the CR's bonus vs Armour (Amarr is -15% and Gallente is -10%, while the projectile's bonus is +10% vs Armour, meaning it's -5% damage vs Amarr and +0% vs Gallente.) The CR is, simply put, designed to kill targets quickly while the Mass Driver is designed to act as a breaching tool (throw defenders off while pushing into an objective) and as an area-denial weapon. You can kill with it, yes, but it's more of a support weapon designed to either keep the enemy on the back foot or flush them out of cover.. Purifier. First Class.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 834	Posted - 2014.11.26 13:43:00 - [187] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: And said CR has more DPS anyways. Of course the ACR/CR is going to murder stuff faster, it's already got a higher DPS than the MD does. facepalm Megaman Trigger wrote: You can kill with it, yes, but it's more of a support weapon designed to either keep the enemy on the back foot or flush them out of cover.. So a "support weapon" deserves a 25% resistance to shield and armor for ALL SENTINELS because "support weapon". But the Combat Rifle deserves 15% resistance to ARMOR ONLY on AMARR SENTINELS ONLY, because it has "more DPS anyways" and is "designed to kill targets quickly". I think I understand now: the worse a weapon is at slaying, the more it should get nerfed. It couldn't be more obvious, thanks guys!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5356	Posted - 2014.11.26 14:48:00 - [188] - Quote I love this thread. It's pure comedy gold. 10/10. Will recommend to friends. OP'S use of ignoring logic and ranting has truly made this troll thread amazing. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 835	Posted - 2014.11.26 22:07:00 - [189] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I love this thread. It's pure comedy gold. 10/10. Will recommend to friends. OP'S use of ignoring logic and ranting has truly made this troll thread amazing. I'm sorry you think I'm trolling, when my actual trolls are mildly entertaining, instead of filled of boring facts and numbers. I'm sorry that your analogies about mass drivers and chutney failed to sway me. I'm sorry that you said that "Shield sents don't have the hp to survive MD period", and then i laid out a detailed play-by-play of such a scenario, showing that they CAN survive the MD very nicely. I'm sorry that you made a post claiming that you can "2-shots every non sentinel in the game", and that I cast some suspicion on that. I'm sorry that you "two shot anything that isn't a proto fit.", but that even with your magic Mass Driver, somehow your K/D ratio is 0.95. I'm sorry that when I corner you with facts, you keep bringing up your Sentinel CQC proposal, which has some merit, but doesn't eliminate the need for my proposal. I'm sorry that you want to be right, but you're wrong. I'm sorry that if you're not wrong, you don't have the skill-set to convey it using fact and reason instead of chutney. But most importantly, I'm embarrassed to hell that I keep trying to actually reason with you.
Megaman Trigger Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 133	Posted - 2014.11.27 00:50:00 - [190] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: So a "support weapon" deserves a 25% resistance to shield and armor for ALL SENTINELS because "support weapon". But the Combat Rifle deserves 15% resistance to ARMOR ONLY on AMARR SENTINELS ONLY, because it has "more DPS anyways" and is "designed to kill targets quickly". I think I understand now: the worse a weapon is at slaying, the more it should get nerfed. It couldn't be more obvious, thanks guys! Actually, the probable reason that the MD gets it's high resistance is because you can hit multiple opponents with one blast where as the higher DPS weapon can only hit 1 target at a time. Potentially it can deal much more damage to more targets at one time. There's also the fact that cover is next to useless thanks to both the arc of the projectile and the blast itself. Add in the Sentinel's often glacial speed, especially those with high Armour values, rendering it next to impossible to get out of said blasts and the 25% resistance starts to makes sense. Mass Driver vs cluster of advancing Sentinels = dealing damage to lots of targets for only 1 round of ammo. Essentially it's a force multiplier designed to support your own side's advance by flushing targets out of cover or slow the enemy's advance on you. Purifier. First Class.

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 158	Posted - 2014.11.27 01:21:00 - [191] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: I'm sorry you think I'm trolling, when my actual trolls are mildly entertaining, instead of filled of boring facts and numbers. I'm sorry that your analogies about mass drivers and chutney failed to sway me. I'm sorry that you said that "Shield sents don't have the hp to survive MD period", and then i laid out a detailed play-by-play of such a scenario, showing that they CAN survive the MD very nicely. I'm sorry that you made a post claiming that you can "2-shots every non sentinel in the game", and that I cast some suspicion on that. I'm sorry that you "two shot anything that isn't a proto fit.", but that even with your magic Mass Driver, somehow your K/D ratio is 0.95. I'm sorry that when I corner you with facts, you keep bringing up your Sentinel CQC proposal, which has some merit, but doesn't eliminate the need for my proposal. I'm sorry that you want to be right, but you're wrong. I'm sorry that if you're not wrong, you don't have the skill-set to convey it using fact and reason instead of chutney. But most importantly, I'm sorry as hell that I keep trying to actually reason with you. I'd like to point out two things: 1. I'm the one that keeps plugging Breakin's proposal (because it's awesome), and I am NOT an alt of Breakin's. In fact, were it not for the fact that Breakin is surprisingly insightful and intelligent on matters of DUST-ness, I would vehemently despise him purely because he is a Goon. Seriously, the only reason I don't is because of aforementioned intelligence. Also he's pretty funny, in that dry humor sort of way. 2. You're still bad, and stupid. Also, your tears are still like a heavenly ambrosia. Also also, pay attention to other people pointing out that you can engage multiple, clustered enemies with ease, and that cover is almost nonexistent (for the enemy, that is) when using the MD- there is very little that you cannot hit and drive back. Addendum: lifetime KDR is a bad measuring stick of player performance. It becomes incredibly difficult to change it unless you go MAXIMUM SCRUB, and do something that gives lots of kills with very little chance that you might die. Like spam a tank in ambush. Case in point: duna2002. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 840	Posted - 2014.11.27 06:58:00 - [192] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: KA24DERT wrote: I'm sorry you think I'm trolling, when my actual trolls are mildly entertaining, instead of filled of boring facts and numbers. I'm sorry that your analogies about mass drivers and chutney failed to sway me. I'm sorry that you said that "Shield sents don't have the hp to survive MD period", and then i laid out a detailed play-by-play of such a scenario, showing that they CAN survive the MD very nicely. I'm sorry that you made a post claiming that you can "2-shots every non sentinel in the game", and that I cast some suspicion on that. I'm sorry that you "two shot anything that isn't a proto fit.", but that even with your magic Mass Driver, somehow your K/D ratio is 0.95. I'm sorry that when I corner you with facts, you keep bringing up your Sentinel CQC proposal, which has some merit, but doesn't eliminate the need for my proposal. I'm sorry that you want to be right, but you're wrong. I'm sorry that if you're not wrong, you don't have the skill-set to convey it using fact and reason instead of chutney. But most importantly, I'm sorry as hell that I keep trying to actually reason with you. I'd like to point out two things: 1. I'm the one that keeps plugging Breakin's proposal (because it's awesome), I provided a direct link to Breakin Stuff plugging his proposal. Of course you're continually posting nonsense after I repeatedly address your points: You need help with reading comprehension. Quote: 2. You're still bad, and stupid. Also, your tears are still like a heavenly ambrosia. Also also, pay attention to other people pointing out that you can engage multiple, clustered enemies with ease, and that cover is almost nonexistent (for the enemy, that is) when using the MD- there is very little that you cannot hit and drive back. Yeah, tears, awesome. We get it, you like typing tears a lot. I've addressed the caveats of hitting multiple targets many times in this thread. But as you just showed, you can't read, so it doesn't matter if i re-state my rebuttal here, or link to it. You can't/won't read, and if you are reading you aren't processing it. So just respond again and tell me more about tears, because tears man, tears. And don't forget to mention how stupid I am while I have tears, otherwise you won't win the argument. Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 842	Posted - 2014.11.29 10:35:00 - [193] - Quote Megaman Trigger wrote: KA24DERT wrote: So a "support weapon" deserves a 25% resistance to shield and armor for ALL SENTINELS because "support weapon". But the Combat Rifle deserves 15% resistance to ARMOR ONLY on AMARR SENTINELS ONLY, because it has "more DPS anyways" and is "designed to kill targets quickly". I think I understand now: the worse a weapon is at slaying, the more it should get nerfed. It couldn't be more obvious, thanks guys! Actually, the probable reason that the MD gets it's high resistance is because you can hit multiple opponents with one blast where as the higher DPS weapon can only hit 1 target at a time. The most probable reason the Mass Driver gets its high resist is because the splash resist is meant to target Remote Explosive splash, which can do 1500 splash damage and totally destroys the Sentinel's survivability in an instant. Whereas a stacked MD build does only 260 splash damage. That's over 6 times less than an RE. 25% nerf against one of the weakest weapons in the game is just an honest mistake, but it's a mistake that needs fixing. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5525	Posted - 2014.11.29 10:54:00 - [194] - Quote Actually the splas resistance was to counter vehicle splash damage, of which only two classes of turret retain: missile in large and small. Without splash resistance a sentinel dies in 4 hits from a python/incubus using missiles. It jumps up to six on the amarr/caldari and 5 on gallente and minmatar with the splash resists. That's why splash resists are a thing. The fact that the mass driver was entirely too effective at destroying heavies in the past was a secondary concern but it is still a concern. Further, as I pointed out, direct hits completely bypass the resistance. Because no sentinel has explosive resistance. Splash resistance, yes, but no explosive resistance. I'm inclined to believe splash damage is untyped. Otherwise the amarr sentinel would be unstoppable entirely with missiles after the profile change from explosive to projectile on said items as it enjoys a further -15 projectile resistance. Honestly the quiet noise being made about changing suit bonuses to being module dependent rather than inherent strikes me as the overall best solution to this problem. That way if CCP makes hardeners you can bonus the fits to gain hardener efficiency. Or you could bonus them for plate efficiency. If I had my choice I'd bonus cal for extenders, minmatar for resists, gallente for rep and amarr for plate efficiency. I'm not really a fan of the static bonusing. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 861	Posted - 2014.11.30 05:18:00 - [195] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Actually the splas resistance was to counter vehicle splash damage, of which only two classes of turret retain: missile in large and small. Without splash resistance a sentinel dies in 4 hits from a python/incubus using missiles. It jumps up to six on the amarr/caldari and 5 on gallente and minmatar with the splash resists. That's why splash resists are a thing. I totally buy that, but REs were certainly in mind as well. I just doubt that Mass Drivers were an intentional target of the bonus. Quote: The fact that the mass driver was entirely too effective at destroying heavies in the past was a secondary concern but it is still a concern. Bad Heavies still die to Mass Drivers in a not-too-obnoxious amount of time, Bad Sentinels have too much immunity to pay for their tactical mistakes. Quote: Further, as I pointed out, direct hits completely bypass the resistance. Because no sentinel has explosive resistance. Splash resistance, yes, but no explosive resistance. Direct hits aren't the answer for a number of reasons. 1) It's hard to land a hit on a moving target 2) That moving target can stop moving and screw up your perfectly led shot 3) Net Code is broken, and your beautiful direct hit can sometimes sail right through a dropsuit. 4) If you can land a direct hit on them, they can see you, if they can see you, you are dead. 5) Even landing 100% direct hits, you will still get owned. Quote: I'm inclined to believe splash damage is untyped. Otherwise the amarr sentinel would be unstoppable entirely with missiles after the profile change from explosive to projectile on said items as it enjoys a further -15 projectile resistance. Honestly the quiet noise being made about changing suit bonuses to being module dependent rather than inherent strikes me as the overall best solution to this problem. That way if CCP makes hardeners you can bonus the fits to gain hardener efficiency. Or you could bonus them for plate efficiency. If I had my choice I'd bonus cal for extenders, minmatar for resists, gallente for rep and amarr for plate efficiency. I'm not really a fan of the static bonusing. You're probably right about types, and being how varied the weapons are, they probably should keep "types" as a rule of thumb, and do a weapon specific matrix of resists(which can inherit damage profiles from damage types). But as you said, that's if they decide to keep doing suit resists at all. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 900	Posted - 2014.12.06 03:29:00 - [196] - Quote Yeah, this is still kinda screwed. Been running a Plasma Cannon in addition to my Mass Driver, but it's not helping much unless I get direct hits (which can sail through even slow moving heavies). Honestly with the amount of Sentinel Spam going on, I might backtrack on my position that remotes and nades be exempt, and that the Splash bonus be removed all together. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Megaman Trigger Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 138	Posted - 2014.12.06 09:24:00 - [197] - Quote As it stands, Sentinels have trouble surviving a basic RE. Advanced and Proto wipe them out instantly, so it seems like they're already exempt from the resistance (1750 from a PRoto - 45% for shields and resist should equal 963 in damage but that doesn't happen.) In fact, REs seem to be dealing damage ABOVE their listed amounts, so even those with enough HP to survive an RE generally don't. Purifier. First Class.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5669	Posted - 2014.12.06 12:54:00 - [198] - Quote Megaman Trigger wrote: As it stands, Sentinels have trouble surviving a basic RE. Advanced and Proto wipe them out instantly, so it seems like they're already exempt from the resistance (1750 from a PRoto - 45% for shields and resist should equal 963 in damage but that doesn't happen.) In fact, REs seem to be dealing damage ABOVE their listed amounts, so even those with enough HP to survive an RE generally don't. Pretty much this. I don't think it should be fixed until the spam peters out a bit. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2297	Posted - 2014.12.06 16:35:00 - [199] - Quote I nearly agreed with the OP until he brought up Breakin's KDR. I then realized that he's just a stooge that doesn't realize this is a game meant to be played for fun and not some measure of a persons worth. KDR <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Isk Efficiency Anyway. Dust514/Legion should be a(n): [_] Arcade Lobby Shooter [X] Sci-fi Military Sim
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5673	Posted - 2014.12.06 20:21:00 - [200] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: I nearly agreed with the OP until he brought up Breakin's KDR. I then realized that he's just a stooge that doesn't realize this is a game meant to be played for fun and not some measure of a persons worth. KDR <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Isk Efficiency Anyway. Best part is I'm AV primary. When I'm running my primary fits I'm a sitting duck for assaults. But the mass driver has been my baby since right before chromosome. I bring her out to keep her feeling loved, attended, and drenched in the blood of unworthy pubbies. KILL ALL THE THINGS!!!! EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2014.12.06 20:38:00 - [201] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: I nearly agreed with the OP until he brought up Breakin's KDR. I then realized that he's just a stooge that doesn't realize this is a game meant to be played for fun and not some measure of a persons worth. KDR <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Isk Efficiency Anyway. I play for fun, I have fun winning, and I don't like programatical imbalances getting in the way of my winning. I brought up the KDR as a footnote to counter what I felt was Breakin's implication that the Mass Driver is some sort of OP killing machine. Has nothing to do with Breakin as a person or a player, and everything to do with the extreme unlikelyhood that Breakin is two-shotting everyone with a MD. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2247	Posted - 2014.12.06 20:55:00 - [202] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Victor Moody Stahl wrote: And said CR has more DPS anyways. Of course the ACR/CR is going to murder stuff faster, it's already got a higher DPS than the MD does. facepalm Megaman Trigger wrote: You can kill with it, yes, but it's more of a support weapon designed to either keep the enemy on the back foot or flush them out of cover.. So a "support weapon" deserves a 25% resistance to shield and armor for ALL SENTINELS because "support weapon". But the Combat Rifle deserves 15% resistance to ARMOR ONLY on AMARR SENTINELS ONLY, because it has "more DPS anyways" and is "designed to kill targets quickly". I think I understand now: the worse a weapon is at slaying, the more it should get nerfed. It couldn't be more obvious, thanks guys! Alright, we need some sense here. If you're a scout and you start taking fire from a MD, how do you survive? If you're a logo and you start taking fire from a MD, how do you survive? If your answer was anything other than " book it for cover as fast as possible" congratulations, you're dead. The only way to escape is to get away from the splash, and since no one can outjump the explosion (maybe, MAYBE a scout gets lucky once or twice in a month) all you can do is run as fast as you can out of range or put something between you and the MD. Can you run particularly fast in a sentinel? Even assuming you toss some kincarlts on it, the most you can really hope for is to be more or less the speed of a medium suit with no kincats, and that's assuming you don't slap any plates on AND you have a larger hitbox than a medium. So the splash resistance means you have as much chance of surviving a MD as the other suits, not so much that you avoid and evade the splash, but that you can soak it up better than most. If sentinels had 50-75% resistance, you'd have a valid complaint. But its not like its particularly difficult to kill a sentinel with a MD assuming you don't charge straight at it and hope for the best. Throw on some proficiency and watch them melt. Also, yes the MD is a support weapon. If you're assaulting the point with a Laser Rifle, you're doing it wrong. No different than the MD. Your job isn't to run in and slay, your job is to flush the enemy out of cover so your assaults can kill them. Or should we whine that the sniper rifle isn't good to assault with? Strapped down to my bed, feet cold and eyes red I'm out of my head, am I alive or am I dead
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 613	Posted - 2014.12.06 21:25:00 - [203] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I love this thread. It's pure comedy gold. 10/10. Will recommend to friends. OP'S use of ignoring logic and ranting has truly made this troll thread amazing. I'm sorry you think I'm trolling, when my actual trolls are mildly entertaining, instead of filled of boring facts and numbers. I'm sorry that your analogies about mass drivers and chutney failed to sway me. I'm sorry that you said that "Shield sents don't have the hp to survive MD period", and then i laid out a detailed play-by-play of such a scenario, showing that they CAN survive the MD very nicely. I'm sorry that you made a post claiming that you can "2-shots every non sentinel in the game", and that I cast some suspicion on that. I'm sorry that you "two shot anything that isn't a proto fit.", but that even with your magic Mass Driver, somehow your K/D ratio is 0.95. I'm sorry that when I corner you with facts, you keep bringing up your Sentinel CQC proposal, which has some merit, but doesn't eliminate the need for my proposal. I'm sorry that you want to be right, but you're wrong. I'm sorry that if you're not wrong, you don't have the skill-set to convey it using fact and reason instead of chutney. But most importantly, I'm sorry as hell that I keep trying to actually reason with you. lol Comedy Gold, indeed. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 905	Posted - 2014.12.06 22:23:00 - [204] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Alright, we need some sense here. If you're a scout and you start taking fire from a MD, how do you survive? If you're a logo and you start taking fire from a MD, how do you survive? If your answer was anything other than " book it for cover as fast as possible" congratulations, you're dead. Congratulations, you've described exactly how to die against a MD user. Most of my kills are from people like you who forget that the MD is mostly smoke and noise. If you are being shot by a MD, the best thing for you to do is start shooting IMMEDIATELY. If you go behind cover against an MD, you will probably die. If you try to run, you will probably die. If I were smarter I'd just let you spread that ProTip. Quote: ...So the splash resistance means you have as much chance of surviving a MD as the other suits, not so much that you avoid and evade the splash, but that you can soak it up better than most. The Sentinel's hedge against the MD's damage is their silly high HP, Even if a Sentinel for some reason decides to follow your sage advice and run for cover, they will have lots of time to contemplate life before they pop. Whereas a Rifle can pop the heavy before they can even GET to cover. The MD's low DPS does not warrant the HIGHEST resistance to a light weapon in the game on the HIGHEST hp suits in the game. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 369	Posted - 2014.12.07 15:20:00 - [205] - Quote This is getting funny... OP is obviously a troll, who tries to get MD buffed for that it can be nerfed into oblivion afterwards. And why, because his Amarrian overseers do not like the MD as it already is... And please OP, if you want to insult or provoke me in game, you have to give it a little more class... otherwise its just boring kiddo! Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 907	Posted - 2014.12.07 21:59:00 - [206] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: This is getting funny... OP is obviously a troll, who tries to get MD buffed for that it can be nerfed into oblivion afterwards. And why, because his Amarrian overseers do not like the MD as it already is... And please OP, if you want to insult or provoke me in game, you have to give it a little more class... otherwise its just boring kiddo! Cool conspiracy story bro. I don't want the MD buffed, aside from perhaps returning the old trajectory from chromosome. I just want to be able to do something against the ridiculous sentinel spam again. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 920	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:38:00 - [207] - Quote Yep, still a problem. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 976	Posted - 2015.01.06 17:11:00 - [208] - Quote Hey, looks like Mass Driver threads are back in style! Whiirrlll, Cover Girl! BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 979	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:21:00 - [209] - Quote Now available in Original Recipe. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 1030	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:40:00 - [210] - Quote Rise from your grave. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate



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KDR - Kill Die Repeat