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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
84
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Posted - 2014.10.31 15:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Chiming in as someone who ran heavy pretty exclusively in Chrome, and is currently part-time Amarr Logi/part-time Amarr Sent, I can say that:
This bonus is absolutely necessary. Moreover, any argument that boils down to "MD/grenades need to do more damage to a fatty to break up chubby chaser teams" is stupid. It's very simple why that's the case too:
MD/grenades still do buttloads of damage to the logi part of a "logi/heavy train". So, you know, if a logi is shoving a rep tool so far up a heavy's backside that the heavy is breathing the nanite beam*... shoot the bloody logi. I mean, if you're so good with the MD, you can obviously arc shots onto a logi if you're fighting over open ground.
And hey, you can cook grenades, which also means that you can very easily bounce them around corners into the face of that logi.
*If you couldn't tell, I hate repping people. I may be a logi, but I am not a walking repair tool whose sole purpose in life is to keep you alive.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
95
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Posted - 2014.11.06 23:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Except that due to HMGs being relegated to "lawlCQC" as a role*, means that shotguns really are the only light weapon that is generally practical for heavy dueling at close quarters.
A rifle user firing on heavy from outside HMG range means that the heavy is in more open terrain, which for a long time means that the heavy dies, or if he's lucky he manages to make into cover and spends the next five minutes playing "run around the rock" to keep something between himself and the rifle user... which also means that said heavy is not doing anything helpful to his team and will probably end up popped anyways.
*You think a MD in close engagement means a "DIE/RUN" choice when against a heavy sucks? Yeah, try the choice of "DIE FAST/DIE SLOW" for a heavy in the open who probably isn't going to make it to cover and will be outranged by anyone with half a brain. At least you have the option to run away- a heavy in the open is a walking corpse.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
99
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Posted - 2014.11.07 23:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:Since sentinels cannot avoid (whatever racial) rifle, they simply soak up the damage.
That's cute that you think a sentinel can actually survive against a rifle user when out in the open. If this is a "CQB" related thing, then I'd argue there's more issue with the HMG being (stupidly) designed as a CQB dominance weapon than rifle effectiveness against heavies of any stripe.
KA24DERT wrote:Since sentinels cannot avoid the shotgun, they simply soak up the damage.
........You're either delusional or stupid if you really believe that.
KA24DERT wrote:What's that? those higher DPS weapons are only resisted by CERTAIN RACES of sentinel? And resisted by much less than the 25% against the LOW DPS mass driver?
Craziness.
You generally picked bad examples, and moreover ignored the fact that the MD, much like the LR, is not a "slayer" weapon, but a "support" weapon. That's not to say that MD/LR user can't rack up the kills in rapid order and to great heights of murder-death-kill-ness, but rather that the intended role that the weapon is supposed to fulfill is much more complex than simply "kill stuff".
Do keep in mind that MDs are pretty nearly instadeath for scouts (which is nice) and very deadly against medframes of all stripes (also nice)... so the fact that you lose "DPS" against heavies is pretty much working as intended. Due to the idiotic decision to chain heavies to CQB conditions, if you try to wander into that with a MD and duel a heavy... then you pretty much deserve to die.
If, OTOH, you find a heavy in the open... you can outrun them, and you can outrange them, and the "ring around the rock" trick that can be used to try to get some amount of cover between yourself and your enemy no longer works, since you can pretty much punt the shells around and over said object that is being used as cover. If you can't kill a heavy in this case, then I'd say that the heavy is just hugging cover... in which case you basically have killed him, since he's stuck there and can be of no use to his team.
Finally, DPS is a poor measure of performance to use with the MD, given that it has a high(-ish) alpha and also has a generally large-to-obscene amount of splash area.
There's also the issue that back before heavies had a splash damage resist, it was quite common for somebody to run up, flux and then proceed to bunny hop around a heavy while killing them with MD splash. As someone who had to endure that... it was frustrating in the extreme because it was nearly impossible to fight back against and almost always resulted in my death. Even after the HP buff that heavies got (way back when the Amarr heavy was the only heavy), this is exactly the sort of thing that would happen... over, and over, and over again.
Of course, that's without going into the very long period of time when locus grenades were instablap murderballs to heavies, given that a heavy is too slow to try and run away from a grenade... or run away at all really.
There's also the slight issue that the bonus/tagging system simply wouldn't support the kind of granularity you seem to think it would. In layman's terms, this means that no, we cannot give a bonus that provides resists to only REs/grenades instead of the current splash damage bonus.
Of course, given the history of MDs and heavies, right now I think I am going to just sit back and drink your tears as the fine vintage that they are.
/sips wineglass of KA24DERT's tears
Refreshing... very refreshing.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
99
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Posted - 2014.11.08 01:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:A mathematical analysis of a weapon's actual damage and TTK is irrelevant when talking about bonuses, because "Alpha".
Thank you for your contribution.
Well, when you say it like that... it just makes me think you're more of an idiot than I previously imagined.
I did not say that the TTK analysis was irrelevant, I said that DPS is specifically a poor- as in "not very good/not the most accurate"- performance metric for the MD because of it's alpha damage bias and it's enormous splash radius.
In other words, learn to actually read, you complete moron.
The fact that you are trying to compare a weapon that is specifically designed to be an area-effect bombardment weapon with direct-fire zero-splash armaments that are intended as mainline service weapons is asinine, stupid, and generally bad. A significantly better comparison would be to the LR, as the LR and MD fulfill very similar roles, merely in very different fashions.
But of course, that would require legitimate, unbiased, and intelligent thought on your part, and we can't have that, now can we.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
99
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Posted - 2014.11.08 05:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:You don't see the folly in using subjective words and concepts to talk about mathematical damage and bonuses?
What does "Alpha damage bias" mean? What does the size of the splash radius have to do with the damage?
It means that the weapon is optimized to deal it's damage in a small number of very powerful shots. Which means that you end up with a shot that hurts a lot, which tends to make everybody, even heavies, think "hmm, maybe I should pick a different route".
If they're smart, at least. If they're stupid then they tend to die.
I'll also note that you are completely ignoring the fact that MDs can hit people behind cover, and can hit multiple enemies with a single shot. Oh, and I went back and looked at this little tidbit again (snipped down to relevant parts):
KA24DERT wrote:Sentinel: ck.0 (shield/armor brick tank)
Shield: 946.65
Armor: 636
*snipped some other math stuffs*
Pop. Boom, Our MAX Caldari sentinel is dead to our MAX Minmatar mass driver, and it only took 17 seconds.
So, you do realize that using THE shield tanking sentinel is of course going to inflate your numbers in your favor, right? Maybe you should have included a max-armor AmSent as well.
KA24DERT wrote:All you're doing at this point is typing words that have little bearing on the reality of this bonus,and trolling.
Sure, sure, if that's what helps you sleep at night and ignore reality. I'll just be over here drinking your tears.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
100
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Posted - 2014.11.08 23:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:What's the benefit of me doing the math for you? I've done enough math in this thread to prove my point, and all you're bringing out is subjective anecdotes that don't lessen the validity of my point.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof; further, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not the person who's disputing it or asking for additional evidence.
IOW, if you say something that sound stupid, then YOU have to prove it isn't stupid. Not me, you.
KA24DERT wrote:You're not contributing anything to this thread aside from insults and trolling.
Well... I won't say I'm trolling you- but I won't say that I'm not either.
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Although it is sort of a disparity that all sentinels get a bonus against a minmatar damage type, the shield sentinels can still receive 100 damage per from the opposite damage profile - scrambler rifles.
Not really; the resistance bonus is to splash damage, not explosive damage. So, for example, the assault forge gun does less splash damage to sentinels as well. Flux grenades in particular do less damage to sentinels... though they do sufficient shield damage that it ends up being a wash.
Small blasters do a little bit of splash damage now too, and will also deal reduced splash damage to sentinels.
The main reason the OP is so butthurt about it is that the MD is generally considered the definitive splash damage weapon, and he wants it to be the omni-weapon over all guns ever.
Kensai Dragon wrote:The only imbalance I see is you trying to use a support role as a primary slayer. Sentinels resistance IS the balance against MD.
Congratulations, someone who understands the intended role of the MD. OP, you should take note. Maybe you could learn something from this person.
KA24DERT wrote:By the numbers, by the amount of market purchases, and by battlefield prevalence, the mass driver is NOT the scourge you are trying to make it out to be.
The mass driver is a bad weapon overall that has very niche use cases, and does not merit a 25%-45% resistance within those niches.
Obviously you are stupid, because Breakin is not pointing out the current meta, but that your proposed (and also stupid) changes WILL bring the MD into being the CQC dominance weapon, that massacres anything and everything.
Really, it just sounds like you want an easymode omni-gun that doesn't do everything sorta-okay-ish so much as excels at everything it ever tries.
Oh, by the way OP.... Your tears, they are still delicious.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
102
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Posted - 2014.11.10 05:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
So apparently somebody reported me for "trolling" when I was quite plainly pointing out that:
1. His maths are, at best, incomplete. The two examples he has given are biased to support his position, as he uses the definitive shield-tanked sentinel suit (Caldari Sentinel ck.0) as the MD target, and then an AmSent ak.0 as the ACR target.
2. The MD is a support weapon, and should not be usable as a general-purpose slayer weapon.
3. The MD is absolute murder to armor-tanked medframes and scouts in general- a fact which he has continued to ignore.
4. That another poster's point about MD scourges is that the MD will become the ultimate omni-gun of DUST (all hail Masshole 514!) if the sentinel splash resist bonus is removed.
But hey, hiding behind the mods? That's pretty classy too. /sips distilled tears of KA24DERT
EDIT: after reviewing your fixes of math, I really don't see what the big deal about the TTK difference is. So a MD takes about 3 times longer to kill a dedicated shield suit than the ACR takes to kill a dedicated armor suit?
Yeah, when you try to compare those particular instances to prove your position, that's called bias, as in, the opposite of being objective.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
102
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Posted - 2014.11.10 06:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Once again, some people simply do not know how to read. So I'll break it down for you:
MD are currently in a pretty good spot; if you know what you're doing, you can be incredibly dangerous and exert insane control over an area by making it a case of "if you decide to walk around this spot, you will die". In spambush this is obviously of very limited use... but hey, that's spambush.
The issue comes with the idea that the MD should be a viable "slayer" weapon... and it shouldn't. Because if it was, then it ultimately outclasses the rifles in that role. It's happened before in DUST's history. Let's not let it happen again. Moreover, do keep in mind that the MD fulfills a very different role to the racial rifles.
Now to clarify (because you are dumb)- the MD is in a good spot right now. If the OP's stupid idea were to be put into the game, then the MD suddenly becomes the omni-weapon, the gun that can do it all. It can blap scouts, it can massacre armor medframes and severely impair the ability of shield medframes to be useful, and you can kill heavies with it. Season with AV grenades and you suddenly have a fit that laughs off nearly everything- and the things it can't lolblap you can at least hurt badly enough to make them decide "hmm, I think I'm going to BUGGER OFF RIGHT NOW".
That's the point that is being made. The MD, somewhat like the HMG, is balanced very nearly on a knife edge. Just a little bit in either direction sends it plummeting into the depths of brokenness- whether said brokenness is of the UP or OP variety doesn't end up being particularly relevant, merely the fact that said position is just the slightest nudge away from either extreme.
Which is a niche support weapon that is fantastically effective in skilled hands, since it does something that the racial rifles really can't do (that's area denial, BTW).
As for the Flaylock... if the chosen benchmark of performance is "can it kill a heavy", then I suggest that you're using the wrong benchmarks. Heavies are, by design, intended to be extremely difficult to kill. Unfortunately, this means they should never have been placed into a sustained CQC dominance role, so there's a lot of issues that end up stemming from that.
Breakin Stuff has an excellent proposal on how that happened, why it's bad, and what we should do to fix it.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
103
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Posted - 2014.11.11 00:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:Our champion has cried FOUL! He demands a more even match, the Caldari Sentinel was too stacked.
Bring forth the Amarr Sentinel!
*snips maths*
I admit some surprise that the result is the same as the CalSent. However, you are still ignoring the fact that the MD is still delicious explodinating murder to all armor mediums and 90% of scouts.
MDs are not slayer weapons in the slightest, your desired change would bring them perilously close to that. I remember when MDs were one of the most brokenly powerful weapons in the game. It was not fun, and I will fight tooth, nail, and blade to see that it never happens again.
Justin Tymes wrote:Haven't we already been through this MD fear mongering? The bullshit has already been refuted. Day 1 of Aim Assist + hit confirm patch, and the MD was dropped like a hot potato, never to be used except by the dedicated, and it has stayed like that even with Aim Assist fixed. The MD hasn't received a single nerf, and this was long before the Heavy buff, and I don't recall any Heavy complaining about MDs then.
The problem was Aiming and not the MD.
My point is not that the MD is brokenly powerful right now. My point is that the MD has historically been a weapon that doesn't take much to make it either useless or the omniweapon. Considering that I endured the MD supremacy days after Uprising's release, I will fight to make sure that that never happens again.
I will, however, also fight to make sure that the MD is not nerfed from its current state, which is IMO if not perfect, nearly there.
Breakin Stuff wrote:Restoration of MD utility is simple.
Reduce heavy spam. Regardless of whether Rattati uses his way (scorching the HMG with heat) or my method (eviction of heavies from CQC) the mass driver is fixed by default.
The problem isn't that heavies resist them. The problem is that there is always eight of the jackasses clustered where you need to attack.
If the sentinel stops being the go-to murder gumby then the MD becomes a useful support tool again that requires a sentinel to engage and shut down rather than a tool simply negated by the sheer NUMBER of leadbutt lardasses constantly on the field.
I think that Breakin has hit upon the real crux of the issue; there are simply not enough medframes fighting over points to make the MD a desirable choice. Incidentally, this means that the issue isn't even stat related, it's a meta issue.
What I mean (for the dumb people... like the OP) is that the real issue at hand is that there are too many heavies fighting eyeball-to-eyeball over points, and not enough mediums doing the same. Due to various other factors in the sentinel suit's current intended role, this means that MDs are perceived as being bad.
Protip: MDs are pretty awesome. Any changes necessary have far more to do with what the Sentinel suit's role should be. I believe I mentioned that Breakin has a fantastic thread on the subject.
Gyn Wallace wrote:Just noting that describing the MD as an alpha weapon is a bit of a gross simplification, since a RR user and I can open fire at the same time, and he can shoot me dead before my first round hits him. How about calling it a high Beta or Gamma weapon?  I agree that balancing the MD is tricky. However who is getting killed by MDs too often? Are MDs producing even 1/5th as many kills as shotguns? There is room for a tiny buff. Not jumping back on the buff/nerf rollercoaster, just something small, like increasing the base splash for the Exo5 from 4.0 to 4.2 or something similarly slight. That might help me marginally increase my performance against scouts from horrible to just "disadvantaged." Heavies are easy to deal with, as an MD wielding logi, in comparison to scouts. All the above is IMHO/experience of course. Better and worse players than me may have wildly different experiences.
Fair enough, it is grossly simplifying the MD's mechanics to describe it as such. However, it doesn't really change that the OP has a stupid idea and should feel bad about posting it.
In terms of MD capability... the only thing that has ever really bugged me is the whole thing about how the regular and Breach only hold six shots, when the ammo drum has eight cylinders. I tried to use the Assault version, and the blast radius is enormous and awesome... but the damage left something to be desired.
Kind of wish they'd just give the regular and Breach an extra two rounds of clip capacity, just to appease my OCD.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
104
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Posted - 2014.11.12 00:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well, MD's aren't good against sneaky-bastard scouts who are speed tanked, because as you said, they tend to close very fast. However, light-assault scouts who abuse the lack of strafe inertia* get wrecked pretty hard because they can't outstrafe splash damage, and even when tanked out they tend the EXO-5 will still put a massive hurt on them.
People who use the scout as a light assault tend to be bricking their suits a little bit less, so they end up with less raw HP than an Assault. As such, the 140+ splash of a MD tends to hurt a lot for such a suit. I personally find that the MD is the best weapon a medframe can carry to fight scouts- there isn't as much precision aim involved and it's impossible to outstrafe splash damage.
Of course, my experience seems to (weirdly enough) be the opposite of yours- on the occasions I pull out the MD, I tend to fair worse against heavies (because my logi suit has paper for armor plating) and better against scouts... though only by a small degree, I admit. Most of my personal experience of MD AmLogi vs heavy tends to be that I just have difficulty popping out long enough to dump splash before I take a lot of damage... but that I feel has more to do with logi balance and the meta aspect of the current role of heavies than any hard number balance between MDs and heavies.
Finally, heavies just need to not be in CQC unless they're toting the Burst HMG, since it has legitimate weaknesses- particularly when faced with multiple enemies at the same time. Two people in short order can be handled, as long as you can get a 1v1 going; once it's 2v1 against the Burst HMG user though, it gets really hard.
*The lack of strafe inertia is what allows many scouts and some shield-medframe users to strafe side-to-side (or any other pattern) ridiculously fast. It's not actually any kind of KB/M "A-D A-D" stupidity, as is often wrongly supposed, but a lack of strafe inertia. Incidentally, strafe inertia would also mean that any complete about KB/M super-strafers is instantly nullified, since it would be impossible to instantly change direction as is often (wrongly) implied of KB/M users.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
109
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Posted - 2014.11.13 05:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bradric Banewolf wrote:For those of you against removing the explosive damage resistance, against RE's, and against shotguns.... how exactly am I supposed to kill proto logi train again?...... I'll wait....?
In light and medium suits we can't simply uproot the logi train, especially in PC, with rail rifles?! The mass driver is OBVIOUSLY useless in the OP's example above where the militia rail rifle is actually more useful??? Wtf???
Proto mass driver from above should easily be the go to for dropping heavies entrenched in areas, but they have this crazy resistance. The OP suggested that the bonus does not apply to mass drivers while still applying to grenades and other explosive damage. Is that so bad??
If so I'm all ears for a solution to heavy spam other than shotguns, remotes, and..... well that's all I got currently?!
Well, I present you with two revolutionary ideas:
1. Shoot the bloody logi instead of the heavy.
2. Support Breakin Stuff's Sentinel battle role proposal.
Other than that, I don't see any problems right now. After all, if heavies are no longer the sustainable CQC powerhouses they are currently, instead being shifted to a long-range fire support role, then MDs are suddenly fixed without screwing over heavies.
Bradric Banewolf wrote:*snipped fail quote and whining about KB/M strafe*
So, I'm going to just leave the fact that I use a KB/M for nearly every role in the game. The only time I set aside my KB/M for a DS3 is if I want to fly derpships. I can say confidently that I have never been able to abuse any supposed KB/M strafe advantage.
And you bet I've bloody well tried too. Considering just how, quite frankly, shite the KB/M controls are- and have been since bloody Uprising 1.0- then I have absolutely tried to squeeze every advantage out of it that I could.
And it's never worked. Not once.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
109
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Posted - 2014.11.14 03:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
You do realize that it simply is not possible, with the current engine and tagging system, to say "heavies have a resist to grenades and REs, but not MDs".
Seriously, there is no way the engine can handle it. Look at swarms, for example- they deal explosive damage, and so get a damage bonus (that's actually fairly negligible) on the Minmatar commando, for a Caldari weapon.
There are only two ways to give the CalMando a swarm bonus- either give the CalMando an explosive+hybrid rail damage bonus (bad), or change the damage type of swarms to hybrid-rail (not bad).
Literally, it is impossible for the Swarms to remain in their current state and be bonused on Calmandos and not Minmandos.
There's also the fact that you still haven't stated why it takes just as long to kill just the logi with the MD, when logis are the definition of "paper armor" in the current patch state.
You have also not addressed the fact that MDs are death incarnate to armor medframes, very deadly to shield medframes, and a great big "screw you" to scout scrubs abusing inertialess strafe mechanics.
You also completely ignored the idea that Breakin's proposal to remove Sentinels from CQC by changing the HMG's role would actually be a stealth buff to the MD- there would be more medframes in the MD's preferred engagement areas, leading to greater effectiveness, without ever touching MDs or Sentinel suit bonuses.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
125
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Posted - 2014.11.18 00:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
I will once again plug Breakin Stuff's proposal about Sentinel battle role, because that would honestly fix every issue that MD users have with sentinels, because the sentinel would then be dominant in terrain conditions that MDs are subpar in anyways.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
126
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Posted - 2014.11.18 00:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
...Actually, yes, "Dat Logic" is right. It's a surprisingly elegant solution, because a MD's weakness against heavies is only an issue because heavies are being spammed in areas that the MD is traditionally strong in.
As I have mentioned before, the MD issue is purely a meta-related problem. There's also the fact that you seem to completely ignore the fact that it is impossible for a heavy to run away from any kind of splash-damage weapon.
You think it's wrong that it takes you more than ten seconds to kill a heavy? From that heavy's point of view, he probably thinks it's wrong that you can kill him without him ever getting the chance to do anything more than shoot his gun wildly with the hopes of maybe putting a little bit of damage on you.
Never forget that the MD can use that splash damage to hit around corners, and the arc to hit over or behind obstacles. As a part-time heavy, I can safely say that I will, if at all possible, avoid like the plague any position that has a MD user in a good overwatch spot, because I will take ridiculous amounts of damage, that I cannot avoid, because heavies are bloody slow.
Three things left: one, "uncourteous" is not a word. The appropriate term is "discourteous". Two- why do you consider it "discourteous" for me to "spam" Breakin's proposal? It's an excellent idea, and also means that you'll have more things to shoot at that you can kill easily (since that's what you really want).
Finally, your tears are still like a fine ambrosia of delicious enjoyment.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
138
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Posted - 2014.11.21 18:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:After I refute your points, you keep advertising your CQC/Sentinel proposal, which is totally compatible with my proposal, and does not negate the need for my proposal.
To be fair, I'm the one doing that (and I am not related to Breakin).
The only issue is that it then makes no bloody sense to combine the two proposals. Seriously, why should that be done?
Further, you continue to ignore the fact that the MD can, in fact, kill a heavy without ever being shot at by using the splash damage to kill the heavy around a corner.
You complain that you face a 10/11 second TTK using splash damage? Well screw you, because you can still kill that heavy without the heavy ever shooting at you. The heavy can never do that to you.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
151
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Posted - 2014.11.24 23:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:The effective TTK for a mass driver against a Sentinel/Logi unit is the same, if not a bit longer due to reps, than the TTK against the Sentinel by himself. So we're still talking above 10 second TTK.
As I and other people have pointed out, that's less effective than many Militia rifles, which is atrocious being that I calculated the Mass Driver TTK with a stacked prototype build.
A stacked rifle build can frag a sentinel and switch to a sidearm while the logi still has his rep tool out.
None of that bolsters the argument for a %25 splash damage nerf to both Shield **AND** Armor, where the other sentinel resists only go up to %15 for Shield **OR** Armor.
So, I was reading back through this thread (because it got a new post of stupid), and I saw this delicious little statement.
Which comes down to saying "the TTK against a logi is the same as the TTK against a heavy". Which then leads us to several causes and the possibilities that they entail:
1. Logis somehow have the same durability as a heavy
This presents its own conundrum: either the impossible has occurred and logis are once again able to tank as high as a heavy can, in which case why aren't we seeing the return of the slayer logi; OR Sentinels are too weak to MD fire.
Kind of funny how this side works. It basically kills your entire thesis in one fell swoop.
2. OP is ass at using the MD
If you are seriously unable to kill a logi faster than the leashed heavy... then quite frankly, you suck at DUST. It is statistically impossible for a logi to endure the same amount of MD fire as a heavy. Not only does logi lack the splash resist bonus that Sentinels boast, logis are unable to tank to the level of even an unfitted sentinel suit.
This possibility pretty much says that you suck at MDs and should choose a different weapon.
I'd also like to point out that the LR takes forever to kill armor-stacked heavies. So too does the ScR take a long time to kill armor-stacked heavies.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
151
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Posted - 2014.11.25 06:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Except that by that point it would be only a 25% resist (unless you're shooting at a shield heavy... in which case why is a logi chained to him?) because the heavy's shields will be down.
A smart heavy will also fall back, at which point you have effectively done your job- the logi/heavy team is either dead or in retreat, and probably unwilling to push up again.
It is often that case that heavies who have a dedicated rep logi will stack plates. This is actually rather dumb, IMO, as it makes a slow suit even slower, at which point the heavy must slowly, painfully waddle out of the murder-death-kill zone of you and your MD.
Something that you continue to ignore, in fact, is that heavies are bloody slow. In fact, the Sentinel ak.0 with 4 Complex Plates has an amazing sprint speed of (drumroll) 4.37 m/s! There are at least a dozen suits that can walk faster than that, and probably half a dozen or more that can strafe faster than that.
And that's not even considering that he's walking at a piddly 3 m/s. It will literally take him almost two entire seconds to completely move out of the splash radius of the Freedom MD. That's enough time to put 300+ damage onto him, which can be dealt to him even around corners, that he cannot fight back against.
Especially considering a heavy who's logi is KIA will usually retreat... or die. Remember that the "heavy" part of a "logi+heavy team" will almost never fit reps of any kind.
Keep in mind, once again, the MD is not a "slayer" weapon. It's an area denial/support weapon- it can and will kill people who are stupid, and especially so if the user is very competent in the use of the MD... but it is not intended to be the go-to "I want to kill all the things" weapon.
And, just to reinforce it once more (with feeling!), a heavy is incapable of running away from splash damage. Especially when armor stacked (like your preferred example).
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
155
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Posted - 2014.11.26 05:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
And said CR has more DPS anyways. Of course the ACR/CR is going to murder stuff faster, it's already got a higher DPS than the MD does.
*facepalm*
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
158
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Posted - 2014.11.27 01:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:I'm sorry you think I'm trolling, when my actual trolls are mildly entertaining, instead of filled of boring facts and numbers. I'm sorry that your analogies about mass drivers and chutney failed to sway me. I'm sorry that you said that " Shield sents don't have the hp to survive MD period", and then i laid out a detailed play-by-play of such a scenario, showing that they CAN survive the MD very nicely. I'm sorry that you made a post claiming that you can " 2-shots every non sentinel in the game", and that I cast some suspicion on that. I'm sorry that you " two shot anything that isn't a proto fit.", but that even with your magic Mass Driver, somehow your K/D ratio is 0.95. I'm sorry that when I corner you with facts, you keep bringing up your Sentinel CQC proposal, which has some merit, but doesn't eliminate the need for my proposal. I'm sorry that you want to be right, but you're wrong. I'm sorry that if you're not wrong, you don't have the skill-set to convey it using fact and reason instead of chutney. But most importantly, I'm sorry as hell that I keep trying to actually reason with you.
I'd like to point out two things:
1. I'm the one that keeps plugging Breakin's proposal (because it's awesome), and I am NOT an alt of Breakin's. In fact, were it not for the fact that Breakin is surprisingly insightful and intelligent on matters of DUST-ness, I would vehemently despise him purely because he is a Goon. Seriously, the only reason I don't is because of aforementioned intelligence. Also he's pretty funny, in that dry humor sort of way.
2. You're still bad, and stupid. Also, your tears are still like a heavenly ambrosia. Also also, pay attention to other people pointing out that you can engage multiple, clustered enemies with ease, and that cover is almost nonexistent (for the enemy, that is) when using the MD- there is very little that you cannot hit and drive back.
Addendum: lifetime KDR is a bad measuring stick of player performance. It becomes incredibly difficult to change it unless you go MAXIMUM SCRUB, and do something that gives lots of kills with very little chance that you might die.
Like spam a tank in ambush. Case in point: duna2002.
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