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Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 84	Posted - 2014.10.31 15:14:00 - [61] - Quote Chiming in as someone who ran heavy pretty exclusively in Chrome, and is currently part-time Amarr Logi/part-time Amarr Sent, I can say that: This bonus is absolutely necessary. Moreover, any argument that boils down to "MD/grenades need to do more damage to a fatty to break up chubby chaser teams" is stupid. It's very simple why that's the case too: MD/grenades still do buttloads of damage to the logi part of a "logi/heavy train". So, you know, if a logi is shoving a rep tool so far up a heavy's backside that the heavy is breathing the nanite beam... shoot the bloody logi. I mean, if you're so good with the MD, you can obviously arc shots onto a logi if you're fighting over open ground. And hey, you can cook grenades, which also means that you can very easily bounce them around corners into the face of that logi. If you couldn't tell, I hate repping people. I may be a logi, but I am not a walking repair tool whose sole purpose in life is to keep you alive. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 697	Posted - 2014.11.01 05:32:00 - [62] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Except mass drivers slaughter every other dropsuit. There is no checkmate. You're fighting a hardened target intended to soak fire. Best heavy killing weapon is a rifle at 40+ meters. If you're stuck in cqc do what the natives do and RE the fat punk. They almost never survive that. Yeah, mass drivers slaughter, that's why everyone uses it. What game are you playing? Mass driver has the lowest DPS of almost every weapon even with splash, a nerf on top of that is ridiculous.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4287	Posted - 2014.11.01 05:46:00 - [63] - Quote May have low DPS but it still chops armor tank to chutney at the rapid pace. An EXO mass driver kills almost any assault armor suit in two shots with solid placement. It OHKs most scouts that aren't cal shield bricks. Most of the reason people refuse to use it is prejudice against "scrub guns" and a moral objection to splash damage. But I get triple and double kills fairly frequently even with the militia version. The weapon works insanely well if you know how to employ it. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 697	Posted - 2014.11.01 06:06:00 - [64] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: May have low DPS but it still chops armor tank to chutney at the rapid pace. It may have low actual mathematical DPS, but your metaphor says otherwise.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4289	Posted - 2014.11.01 06:38:00 - [65] - Quote Two one- second alphas > three seconds of DPS on target. You cannot engage using alpha weapons the same way you engage with a rifle. Mass driver employment requires a different tactical mindset than most players are willibg ro enter. It's the same reason most people suck with laser rifles. They require a complete shift of mindset to employ. It's why forge guns aren't popular. Swarms are easier to employ even if a proper forge makea a swarmer loom like a child attacking a tinkertoy set. Employing alpha weapons the way you employ DPS weapons means you die a lot. My mass driver fits all emplpy a combat rifle or a magsec SMG for killing heavies outside HMG optimal. Mass driver guts people and makes them rage badly when employed correctly. Running forward while firing is the opposite of correct. Alpha weapons have thw the potential to kill faster than any assault rifle. You just have to employ them the right way. See shotgun scouts pre cloak. There were a few scouts who could get in close with a shotgun and even without the cloak make people scream for shotgun nerfs because they considered It utterly unfair. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 697	Posted - 2014.11.01 09:01:00 - [66] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Two one- second alphas > three seconds of DPS on target. You cannot engage using alpha weapons the same way you engage with a rifle. Mass driver employment requires a different tactical mindset than most players are willing to enter. It's the same reason most people suck with laser rifles. They require a complete shift of mindset to employ. It's why forge guns aren't popular. Swarms are easier to employ even if a proper forge makes a swarmer loom like a child attacking a tinkertoy set. Employing alpha weapons the way you employ DPS weapons means you die a lot. My mass driver fits all employ a combat rifle or a magsec SMG for killing heavies outside HMG optimal. Mass driver guts people and makes them rage badly when employed correctly. Running forward while firing is the opposite of correct. Alpha weapons have the the potential to kill faster than any assault rifle. You just have to employ them the right way. See shotgun scouts pre cloak. There were a few scouts who could get in close with a shotgun and even without the cloak make people scream for shotgun nerfs because they considered It utterly unfair. I don't see what your wall of theorycrafting has to do with the mathematical fact that the mass driver has the lowest DPS in the game, and the sentinel bonus makes them nearly IMMUNE to mass drivers. Before the sentinel bonus it could at least be used to deter the heavy trains that swarm points in PC, now sentinels basically just walk right through it. Unless I go for direct hits, but again, now they can see me, and I can see them, and that math does not work out for the MD user. I've been using the mass driver EXCLUSIVELY since the first day of open beta. I know how to use my weapon, and I know when my weapon is broken, but any reasonable non-MD user can look at the MD's effective DPS against a sentinel and come to the conclusion that the sentinel bonus is excessive.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4292	Posted - 2014.11.01 10:12:00 - [67] - Quote Theorycrafting my ass. This is usage and operator experience. I don't theorycraft, it's bullsh*t. I post what I see and do and most of what I see points to "most mass driver users suck" Use another weapon for sentinels. It's not the go-to easy kill weapon on them anymore. Accept it and move along. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4305	Posted - 2014.11.01 14:34:00 - [68] - Quote Oh and as a reminder: Alpha Weapons have low DPS by design. Mass driver is an alpha weapon. Further the game is about choices and hard counters. If sentinel splash is removed mass drivers become easy mode again. Why? Why my boy, you can 2-shot any non sentinel with good placement and 3 damage mods. If the mass driver becomes efficient against fatties then what will be the counter to mass drivers? Every goddamn minmatar commando in the game will do nothing but mass drivers, and minssaults and logis will have zero reason to not armor up and rock 3 damage mods. Caldari assaults with extender p*rn still get 2-shotted by proto MD. The only thing keeping MDs from being more common is the sentinel splash resistance. If you want to gank sentinels, run another weapon. I find the ScP, magsec and CR to be remarkably effective at 45+ meters. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7188	Posted - 2014.11.01 14:45:00 - [69] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. Amarr and Gallente should really be the only races with a Sentinel bonus to Explosives. Amarr bonus being Primary Explosives Resistance, Minor Projectile Damage Bonus Gallente being Primary Hybrid-Rail, Minor Explosives. I mean Explosives Resistance is actually the highest resistance value Amarrian Armour vessels have @ T2. Following that train of thought. Minmatar: Primary Laser Shield Resistance 5% per level. Minor Plasma Shield Resistance 3% per level. Caldari: Primary Plasma Shield Resistance 5% per Level. Minor Projectile Shield Resistance 3% per level. Just following the Natural Resistance of T2 Ships in EVE (Heavy Assault Cruisers in particular) Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4305	Posted - 2014.11.01 14:55:00 - [70] - Quote Shield sents don't have the hp to survive MD period. Just winds up shuffling the original problem. The solution is the eviction of sentinels from CQC. This restores the MD as the go-to CQC suppressive weapon and opens sentinels to the weapons that should be able to counter them. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

DarthPlagueis TheWise 213	Posted - 2014.11.01 15:12:00 - [71] - Quote The idea here isn't the resistance to MDs. It's those goddamn OP as hell Remote Explosives. And if you're not carrying fluxes on your MD suit, you're doing it wrong. I can guarantee you that as a full time heavy, those MDs can hurt a lot. Especially when you hit me when I'm behind cover. Bolas deploys tank in strategic location
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4306	Posted - 2014.11.01 15:25:00 - [72] - Quote DarthPlagueis TheWise wrote: The idea here isn't the resistance to MDs. It's those goddamn OP as hell Remote Explosives. And if you're not carrying fluxes on your MD suit, you're doing it wrong. I can guarantee you that as a full time heavy, those MDs can hurt a lot. Especially when you hit me when I'm behind cover. Someone said they are bypassing splash resistance. Makes sense since a 1500 hp RE should only hit a calsent for 900 at full shields. But they still instapop. And wrong thread. This thread was created explicitly to gripe about mass drivers. The RE thread is that way. ---------> EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Cavani1EE7 Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 383	Posted - 2014.11.01 19:35:00 - [73] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Because it makes the basically immune to mass drivers. Amarr and Gallente should really be the only races with a Sentinel bonus to Explosives. Amarr bonus being Primary Explosives Resistance, Minor Projectile Damage Bonus Gallente being Primary Hybrid-Rail, Minor Explosives. I mean Explosives Resistance is actually the highest resistance value Amarrian Armour vessels have @ T2. Than though Caldari and Minmatar should have flux high res. Take a bow
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 698	Posted - 2014.11.01 22:46:00 - [74] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Theorycrafting my ass. This is usage and operator experience. I don't theorycraft, it's bullsht. I post what I see and do and most of what I see points to "most mass driver users suck" Use another weapon for sentinels. It's not the go-to easy kill weapon on them anymore. Accept it and move along. "Use another weapon?" The mass driver is the only light weapon subject to that advice against sentinels. You don't see a problem with that? Rail Rifle? Please proceed. Combat Rifle? Right-o then. Shotgun? Carry On. Mass Driver? WOOOOAAAAH, put that away, what are you trying to do, KILL* someone? It was never easy to kill a competent heavy with a mass driver, the resistance was meant to target REs, and the mass driver is a casualty CCP didn't think about.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 699	Posted - 2014.11.01 22:50:00 - [75] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Why my boy, you can 2-shot any non sentinel with good placement and 3 damage mods. If the mass driver becomes efficient against fatties then what will be the counter to mass drivers? Every weapon in the whole game is a counter to mass drivers. We don't need another nerf.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 699	Posted - 2014.11.01 22:59:00 - [76] - Quote DarthPlagueis TheWise wrote: The idea here isn't the resistance to MDs. It's those goddamn OP as hell Remote Explosives. And if you're not carrying fluxes on your MD suit, you're doing it wrong. I can guarantee you that as a full time heavy, those MDs can hurt a lot. Especially when you hit me when I'm behind cover. You're making bad choices. If you're behind cover, and some dingbat is hitting you for 88 damage every second, you pop out and shoot them for 700 damage every second. If the MD user is out of your range, you zig-zag away until you get out of harms way, or if terrain permits, you zig-zag towards the MD user and pop them during the inevitable reload. MD hurts a lot if you want to say still for two magazine unloads.
Kensai Dragon Dust University Ivy League 32	Posted - 2014.11.01 23:36:00 - [77] - Quote Ok, so the problem is that splash damage doesn't kill Sentinels fast enough for you. There's really only one map that I can think of where Sents crowd up in closed rooms, the Dom with objective and supply both underground. Even in that map, I get MD'd from above. I believe every other map gives ample opportunity for flanking Sents, which means that you can see them from range and land your direct shots. It's a specialty weapon, like Shotguns. It should require at least some situational decision making. MD is great for crowd control. No other infantry weapon does it better. Resistance to splash is the counter.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 700	Posted - 2014.11.02 01:38:00 - [78] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Ok, so the problem is that splash damage doesn't kill Sentinels fast enough for you. There's really only one map that I can think of where Sents crowd up in closed rooms, the Dom with objective and supply both underground. Even in that map, I get MD'd from above. I believe every other map gives ample opportunity for flanking Sents, which means that you can see them from range and land your direct shots. It's a specialty weapon, like Shotguns. It should require at least some situational decision making. MD is great for crowd control. No other infantry weapon does it better. Resistance to splash is the counter. Only one map? Quite the contrary, Most maps have objectives that encourage CQC. There's only one or two objectives in the entire game I can think of where there's an open objective with no crates/boxes/walls to funnel people into a meat grinder. CQC is the norm around objectives. Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 291	Posted - 2014.11.02 04:19:00 - [79] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Except mass drivers slaughter every other dropsuit. There is no checkmate. You're fighting a hardened target intended to soak fire. Best heavy killing weapon is a rifle at 40+ meters. If you're stuck in cqc do what the natives do and RE the fat punk. They almost never survive that. Every other weapon slaughters every other suit so that argument is invalid. No other weapon is so heavily penalised against any single suit as the MD is vs sentinels (this is an not arguable). 1500hp vs 88 damage and of the top of my head so I am off, it would take over 17 MD rds to bring down a heavy. TTK for that engagement takes about a minute given reload times and ducking into cover to regen. It is possible , and I have succeeded in doing so, but this point alone negates any argument against defending such high splash reduction that is currently in place. I don't have a problem with heavies having splash reduction but the current numbers make the current TTK way to askewed to be relevant at a competitive level. Sage /thread
Kensai Dragon Dust University Ivy League 34	Posted - 2014.11.02 05:02:00 - [80] - Quote Currently, Splash damage applies to grenades, missiles, and MD. I believe one of the Forge variants retained splash as well, but not a forger so I'm not sure. Mass driver is essentially a grenade launcher. Also, if you throw a Flux first then splash damage at the 160 you listed is 120hp/shot on a maxed out Sentinel. With these numbers, I'm not sure the splash damage resistance is the issue. If you're trying to take out Sentinels (which start out at base +1k ehp with minimal core upgrades) with only 160 dmg per shot, then I'd say you chose the wrong weapon for that engagement.

Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 1077	Posted - 2014.11.02 08:20:00 - [81] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. Agree mostly, but slightly incorrect. At Range, you are usually looking at either a direct hit or miss(obviously you are trying to hit them in the knees, but a long shot is easy to misjudge unless the terrain is favorable). If they are stupid enough to stand next to a wall, you are looking to do neither and shoot directly above their head. None of these options are likely to kill the heavy. The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 713	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:03:00 - [82] - Quote Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits?
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14252	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:06:00 - [83] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits? Amarr Assaults...... SCR cannot chew through any sentinel....but a poorly tanked Minmatar one. "HeGÇÖs sorry. ThatGÇÖs his sorry faceGÇª. Just keep quiet for now and maybe you'll get through this." -Kador Ouryon
hfderrtgvcd 1077	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:11:00 - [84] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits? lolwhat. Unless you're using a shotgun you have to run from heavies. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 713	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:16:00 - [85] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits? lolwhat. Unless you're using a shotgun you have to run from heavies. What you're saying is that shotgunners are the only people who are capable of killing heavies, and that contradicts the reality of the game. Rifle users along with shotguns are able to engage sentinels and have a shot at winning. I see it happen all the time. But mass driver's damage against sentinel is so low that the chance of winning an encounter is terrible, and the choices are usually DIE/RUN.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 95	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:50:00 - [86] - Quote Except that due to HMGs being relegated to "lawlCQC" as a role, means that shotguns really are the only light weapon that is generally practical for heavy dueling at close quarters. A rifle user firing on heavy from outside HMG range means that the heavy is in more open terrain, which for a long time means that the heavy dies, or if he's lucky he manages to make into cover and spends the next five minutes playing "run around the rock" to keep something between himself and the rifle user... which also means that said heavy is not doing anything helpful to his team and will probably end up popped anyways. You think a MD in close engagement means a "DIE/RUN" choice when against a heavy sucks? Yeah, try the choice of "DIE FAST/DIE SLOW" for a heavy in the open who probably isn't going to make it to cover and will be outranged by anyone with half a brain. At least you have the option to run away- a heavy in the open is a walking corpse. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
137H4RGIC Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 273	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:05:00 - [87] - Quote Heavy's need to have the explosion resistance because they are meant to defend the point or objective. The reason they defend the point, it's because they cannot chase the scouts or the assault classes. if you remove this explosive resistance that makes them impervious to grenades which everyone carries and heavies are typically too slow to take evasive action against grenades. what I am hearing is someone who uses a mass driver that keeps trying to take on a heavy because they are to use to killing scouts or assaults very easily. Stop trying to fight heavies with what they are tanked against. You don't see heavies trying to engage their bane: rail rifles. Why are you engaging yours? TLDR adapt stop trying to kill heavies with mass drivers. Ps I'm a chromosome heavy veteran D.U.S.T. Don't Underestimate Stupid Tryhards...
137H4RGIC Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 273	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:10:00 - [88] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Hit sentinels from range and get a direct hit? That is very, very hard. Move 0.5 meters left or right and my direct hit is now splash. Also, the counter to splash on sentinels is their extremely high HP, and the MD's extremely low DPS. I don't see how the mass driver merits some special "counter" compared to other weapons which much higher DPS. If you want RE resistance, we can talk about that, but mass drivers shouldn't be caught up in that equation. blah blah blah The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable. This is the core of my issue. How many other light weapon users have to outright RUN when confronted with a particular class of suits? as a heavy with hmg?? Shotguns, snipers, laser rifles, rail rifles, tanks, drop ships, nova knives. D.U.S.T. Don't Underestimate Stupid Tryhards...
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 713	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:46:00 - [89] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: Heavy's need to have the explosion resistance because they are meant to defend the point or objective. The reason they defend the point, it's because they cannot chase the scouts or the assault classes. if you remove this explosive resistance that makes them impervious to grenades which everyone carries and heavies are typically too slow to take evasive action against grenades. what I am hearing is someone who uses a mass driver that keeps trying to take on a heavy because they are to use to killing scouts or assaults very easily. Stop trying to fight heavies with what they are tanked against. You don't see heavies trying to engage their bane: rail rifles. Why are you engaging yours? TLDR adapt stop trying to kill heavies with mass drivers. Ps I'm a chromosome heavy veteran A rail rifle can engage a heavy within a heavy's range and have a shot at winning. If you want grenade/remote resistance, you can keep it due to the alpha of those weapons. But look at the math, NOTHING else in the game is such a hard counter to a light weapon. Heavies were always hard to kill with the mass driver due to their massive HP, which often required a reload before killing a heavy (8+ seconds). What other weapon takes 8 seconds of continuous engagement to kill a heavy? THAT WAS PRE RESISTANCE. Now they basically have immunity.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 50	Posted - 2014.11.07 01:18:00 - [90] - Quote So, I come around the corner finally catching up with my team, you just killed off all my scout and assault buddies with your OP MD, and you're upset that you can't kill me with the same impunity? LOL Every other weapon has a balance through limitations. Shotgun and HMG are severely limited through range. Forge and RR are limited through charge up time. Etc, etc. It seems the MD limitation is suit class. It may be novel and unique in this case, but if the MD becomes the super slayer from afar, near, and everywhere, what is the limitation?



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