LOL! No. Sentinels are designed to take on heavier firepower and resistance to the explosives...cause that's what Sentinels/Heavies are. It's even in the description in game.

Sentinels are point pushers and point defenders, they are more frontline than the assault and for that reason they should not have their resistance to explosives removed.

I'd rather be able to detonate my REs right as I die than take away the explosive resistance

Heavies were way too easy before. How are you using the MD? Are you maintaining range whenever possible, using its long range with no damage reduction out to maximum range to full advantage? Are you using its superb accuracy out to maximum range (once you get used to the arc and aiming/ranging with the bottom of the hip fire reticule)? Are you using corners to fall back, while inflicting damage to the advancing heavy, whenever you meet a heavy up close?

IMHO, the mass driver has never been as well balanced as it is right now. The Exo-5 is my primary weapon; usually with no secondary weapon on my logi suit. I'm much less likely to survive a 1v1 with a shotgun scout than a 1v1 with a heavy. Heavies are still fairly easy to deal with unless you stumble on one without any corners to retreat around. In any other circumstance, I have a range and mobility advantage to leverage against any heavies I come across.

Even in close quarters, if I have corners to retreat around, I can constantly splash an approaching heavy, without giving him direct line of sight long enough for him to waste me. Use the mass driver's slow travel time to your advantage. You get to fire at the ground ahead of him while he pushes around the corner, while you retreat around the corner, at the same time backing up to the next corner you'll be using for cover. You can kill them without them ever getting direct line of sight, without them ever getting a shot on you.

The only heavies that give me trouble in close are just better players than me, or average heavies with burst HMGs, so even a moment of exposure or lag gets me killed.

If you told me I had to duel someone and I had to use the mass driver and I got to chose their suit, I'd put them in a heavy suit.

The one huge weakness (every weapon should have one) is running out of ammo when using the MD. The nerf to nanohive clusters was a bigger MD nerf than buffing heavy splash resistance.

Mass drivers and heavies are very well balanced IMHO. If scouts were just a little bit slower or squishier, the class/weapon balance in this game would be outstanding.

I'd love to see hard data, since the above is just my sense of things. I'd love to see weekly kills/deaths/isk destroyed, broken down by suits/weapons.

Bolded above for emphasis. If you're standing in full view of a heavy for 1 full second, no weapon can save you. Can't you back around a corner when you get surprised by a heave in about a quarter of a second? That's why the burst HMG is so devestating; against a burst I entirely agree with you. Even pulling back as fast as my reflexes and lag allows, I frequently get toasted by a burst HMG, but against other HMGs, I more frequently than not can break contact when surprised by a heavy. And that's as a brick tanked, kind of slow logi. Heavies are the only suits I can outmaneuver, IF they aren't running KinCats. Are you having a different experience with breaking initial contact when surprised by a heavy? How are you approaching corners?

I asked you the questions quoted above, not to be rhetorical, but to genuinely inquire. I guess a more general way of putting some of those questions: On average, how far does a round from your mass driver travel before it hits something? If its less than a third of your maximum range, can we agree that you're not taking full advantage of your ability to out range an HMG's damage?

Does your playstyle with the MD more closely resemble a shotgunner or a sniper, if we consider those two roles as the extremes on a continuum?

The rail rifle resistance only applies to the dropsuits' shields... which are not as thick as armor.

The resistance is to the mass driver's splash. If you were to directly hit a sentinel with a mass driver round he would not enjoy his 25% resistance. It's easier than you think because armor sentinels are slow like turtle.

Except mass drivers slaughter every other dropsuit.

There is no checkmate. You're fighting a hardened target intended to soak fire.

Best heavy killing weapon is a rifle at 40+ meters.

If you're stuck in cqc do what the natives do and RE the fat punk. They almost never survive that.

May have low DPS but it still chops armor tank to chutney at the rapid pace.

Two one- second alphas > three seconds of DPS on target.

You cannot engage using alpha weapons the same way you engage with a rifle. Mass driver employment requires a different tactical mindset than most players are willing to enter.

It's the same reason most people suck with laser rifles. They require a complete shift of mindset to employ. It's why forge guns aren't popular. Swarms are easier to employ even if a proper forge makes a swarmer loom like a child attacking a tinkertoy set.

Employing alpha weapons the way you employ DPS weapons means you die a lot.

My mass driver fits all employ a combat rifle or a magsec SMG for killing heavies outside HMG optimal.

Mass driver guts people and makes them rage badly when employed correctly. Running forward while firing is the opposite of correct.

Alpha weapons have the the potential to kill faster than any assault rifle. You just have to employ them the right way. See shotgun scouts pre cloak. There were a few scouts who could get in close with a shotgun and even without the cloak make people scream for shotgun nerfs because they considered It utterly unfair.

Theorycrafting my ass. This is usage and operator experience.

I don't theorycraft, it's bullsh*t. I post what I see and do and most of what I see points to "most mass driver users suck"

Use another weapon for sentinels. It's not the go-to easy kill weapon on them anymore. Accept it and move along.

Why my boy, you can 2-shot any non sentinel with good placement and 3 damage mods. If the mass driver becomes efficient against fatties then what will be the counter to mass drivers?

The idea here isn't the resistance to MDs.

It's those goddamn OP as hell Remote Explosives.

And if you're not carrying fluxes on your MD suit, you're doing it wrong. I can guarantee you that as a full time heavy, those MDs can hurt a lot. Especially when you hit me when I'm behind cover.

Ok, so the problem is that splash damage doesn't kill Sentinels fast enough for you. There's really only one map that I can think of where Sents crowd up in closed rooms, the Dom with objective and supply both underground. Even in that map, I get MD'd from above. I believe every other map gives ample opportunity for flanking Sents, which means that you can see them *from range* and land your direct shots.

It's a specialty weapon, like Shotguns. It should require at least some situational decision making.
MD is great for crowd control. No other infantry weapon does it better. Resistance to splash is the counter.

blah blah blah

The sentinel bonus essentially makes the suit a hard counter to the mass driver. Hard counters are not preferable.

lolwhat. Unless you're using a shotgun you have to run from heavies.

Heavy's need to have the explosion resistance because they are meant to defend the point or objective. The reason they defend the point, it's because they cannot chase the scouts or the assault classes. if you remove this explosive resistance that makes them impervious to grenades which everyone carries and heavies are typically too slow to take evasive action against grenades. what I am hearing is someone who uses a mass driver that keeps trying to take on a heavy because they are to use to killing scouts or assaults very easily. Stop trying to fight heavies with what they are tanked against. You don't see heavies trying to engage their bane: rail rifles. Why are you engaging yours?

TLDR adapt stop trying to kill heavies with mass drivers.

Ps I'm a chromosome heavy veteran

CCP listens to factual numbers. can some mathematician do the numbers and figure out the TTK of MD vs stock heavies to include how many rounds it takes? My last check off of others math was 17 rounds, but that did not include regean abilities of either side. We need hard evidence with real numbers.

Here is the core reason for the resistance. Sentinels can't run. There sprint is easily overtaken by a walking medium, even if the medium has a plate or two. Since sentinels cannot avoid the mass driver, they simply soak up the damage.

Finally, DPS is a poor measure of performance to use with the MD, given that it has a high(-ish) alpha and also has a generally large-to-obscene amount of splash area.

Well, when you say it like that... it just makes me think you're more of an idiot than I previously imagined.

I did not say that the TTK analysis was irrelevant, I said that DPS is specifically a poor- as in "not very good/not the most accurate"- performance metric for the MD because of it's alpha damage bias and it's enormous splash radius.

In other words, learn to actually read, you complete moron.

The fact that you are trying to compare a weapon that is specifically designed to be an area-effect bombardment weapon with direct-fire zero-splash armaments that are intended as mainline service weapons is asinine, stupid, and generally bad. A significantly better comparison would be to the LR, as the LR and MD fulfill very similar roles, merely in very different fashions.

But of course, that would require legitimate, unbiased, and intelligent thought on your part, and we can't have that, now can we.

So, you do realize that using THE shield tanking sentinel is of course going to inflate your numbers in your favor, right? Maybe you should have included a max-armor AmSent as well.

One weapon being ineffective does not a problem make.

Oh wait. Flaylocks. That's two.

Everything else works on sentinel suits.

Literally everything.

My triple moddedd EXO-5 mass driver 2-shots every non sentinel in the game that is not a proto brick tank with no regen.

The heavy suit is the ONLY suit that cannot be killed by one maybe two rounds from a splash weapon that can kill four people simultaneously.

If sentinels lose the splash resistance then there is no counter.

Then the mass driver must be retooled so it cannot kill four proto dropsuits with two rounds from any proto mass driver.

If that resistance goes away then it has to be toned back so it does not solely dominate CQC and annihilate all scouts, commandos and assaults.

This isn't supposition.

This is a FACT.

The tears are SPECTACULAR.

By the way, your math is wrong nerd.

I two shot anything that isn't a proto fit.

I admit some surprise that the result is the same as the CalSent. However, you are still ignoring the fact that the MD is still delicious explodinating murder to all armor mediums and 90% of scouts.

Are you attempting (pardon my ignorance too much thread) that only Massdriver explosive resistance should be exempt from this or that all explosive resistance should be removed from sentinels?

Which is pretty meaningless when Rifles are downing up to 3 units faster than a MD could, especially if at least one of those units is a Heavy, which is standard conditions. Any more is a Merry Christmas scenario, since you are then facing bad players. And anything can kill bad players.

Actually even hitting 3 decent players at a time with the MD is pretty silly TBH.

Well, I present you with two revolutionary ideas:

1. Shoot the bloody logi instead of the heavy.

Splash resistance on heavies is fine, hit them in the face and they go down.

This message is coming from your friendly neighbourhood Masshole!

HTFU

BTW, carpetbombing with an assault MD might not do the trick... and against Caldari Sents the MD is the wrong weapon!!!

You do realize that it simply is not possible, with the current engine and tagging system, to say "heavies have a resist to grenades and REs, but not MDs".

There's also the fact that you still haven't stated why it takes just as long to kill just the logi with the MD, when logis are the definition of "paper armor" in the current patch state.

You have also not addressed the fact that MDs are death incarnate to armor medframes, very deadly to shield medframes, and a great big "screw you" to scout scrubs abusing inertialess strafe mechanics.

You also completely ignored the idea that Breakin's proposal to remove Sentinels from CQC by changing the HMG's role would actually be a stealth buff to the MD- there would be more medframes in the MD's preferred engagement areas, leading to greater effectiveness, without ever touching MDs or Sentinel suit bonuses.

Well, like all "specialty weapons", the massdriver has its plusses and severe shortcomings. The MD is no 1v1 infantry weapon.

You have to use it as such.

1. Stay behind your own heavies. Lob the rounds over your teammates and soften the heavies with a mixture of direct and splash hits. Your grunts will do the rest.

2. If you get caught 1v1 well you die if the heavy has you in range. If not or cover is near, use it. I have been chased by heavies and every time they come around the corner they get a round in the face, run again, repeat.

3. If you want even terms with a massdriver towards a heavy you have to get him in a place where he can't shoot you (range, cover) and pop in and out of cover to finish him.

This might not always work, but thats the problem with a weapon that can damage multiple targets at the same time. It needs shortcomings in other areas.

I just think the MD is not for you. So go to the Market and buy something that suits you. Problem solved.

Cheers

Role Bonus(ALL SENTINELS): +5% damage resistance to splash damage per level.

Caldari Sentinel Bonus:
GÇó3% shield resistance to hybrid - blaster weapons per level.
GÇó2% shield resistance to laser weapons per level.
Gallente Sentinel Bonus:
GÇó3% armor resistance to hybrid - railgun weapons per level.
GÇó2% armor resistance to projectile weapons per level.
Minmatar Sentinel Bonus:
GÇó3% shield resistance to laser weapons per level.
GÇó2% armor resistance to hybrid - blaster weapons per level.
Amarr Sentinel Bonus:
GÇó3% armor resistance to projectile weapons per level.
GÇó2% shield resistance to hybrid - railgun weapons per level.

I will once again plug Breakin Stuff's proposal about Sentinel battle role, because that would honestly fix every issue that MD users have with sentinels, because the sentinel would then be dominant in terrain conditions that MDs are subpar in anyways.

You think it's wrong that it takes you more than ten seconds to kill a heavy?

Three things left: one, "uncourteous" is not a word. The appropriate term is "discourteous".

Finally, your tears are still like a fine ambrosia of delicious enjoyment.

I say buff it to 40% resistance cuz **** remotes

No point arguing.

OP will not accept any evidence or opinion as valid unless it is in lockstep with his own.

Further, you continue to ignore the fact that the MD can, in fact, kill a heavy without ever being shot at by using the splash damage to kill the heavy around a corner.

No.

Because your mass driver will get nerfed again the instant you get what you want.

They buffed it back up to useful because they added the resists.

Mass drivers were nerfed because there was no dropsuit that could stand against them.

TTK is too low on other suits.

It's going to get nerfed if splash resistance goes away.

So, I was reading back through this thread (because it got a new post of stupid), and I saw this delicious little statement.

Which comes down to saying "the TTK against a logi is the same as the TTK against a heavy". Which then leads us to several causes and the possibilities that they entail:

Mass Drivers and sentinels are fine as is imo (at least in terms of the explosive resists)

So what if you run into a sentinel with a mass driver and he can fire back at you, you lose. Big deal. Lets talk about the **** in the game thats effectively uncounterable first before we go after this fringe case stuff thats not even really imbalanced. We can talk about ... logi/heavy blobs...

Hell we can even talk about how remote explosives one shot every suit in the game regardless of meta level, and we mentioned that in this same thread. Anyone else think thats some BS? Because I sure do.

Now mistake me if I'm wrong, but don't explosive weapons get a +20% vs Armour? That would mean a Sentinel without Shields only has a 5% resistance.

This is, of course, ignoring Proficiency, which boosts the MD's damage vs Armour by a further 15%, meaning that the MD is getting +10% damage now. If that's a Min Commando, that's +20% with the level 5 skill. Is that an Enhanced Damage mod you have there? Well now, that's now +25% vs Armour.

So, if my maths is correct, doesn't that mean a Freedom Mass Driver on a Min Commando deals 200 damage in splash vs Armour per round to any Sentinel? Against anything else you're looking at about 240 vs Armour (20% vs armour + 15% Prof 5 + 10% Min bonus + 5% EDM = +50%!) per round.

And said CR has more DPS anyways. Of course the ACR/CR is going to murder stuff faster, it's already got a higher DPS than the MD does.

*facepalm*

You can kill with it, yes, but it's more of a support weapon designed to either keep the enemy on the back foot or flush them out of cover..

I love this thread. It's pure comedy gold.

10/10.

Will recommend to friends.

OP'S use of ignoring logic and ranting has truly made this troll thread amazing.

I'd like to point out two things:

1. I'm the one that keeps plugging Breakin's proposal (because it's awesome),

2. You're still bad, and stupid. Also, your tears are still like a heavenly ambrosia. Also also, pay attention to other people pointing out that you can engage multiple, clustered enemies with ease, and that cover is almost nonexistent (for the enemy, that is) when using the MD- there is very little that you cannot hit and drive back.

Actually, the probable reason that the MD gets it's high resistance is because you can hit multiple opponents with one blast where as the higher DPS weapon can only hit 1 target at a time.

Actually the splas resistance was to counter vehicle splash damage, of which only two classes of turret retain: missile in large and small.

Without splash resistance a sentinel dies in 4 hits from a python/incubus using missiles. It jumps up to six on the amarr/caldari and 5 on gallente and minmatar with the splash resists.

That's why splash resists are a thing.

The fact that the mass driver was entirely too effective at destroying heavies in the past was a secondary concern but it is still a concern.

Further, as I pointed out, direct hits completely bypass the resistance. Because no sentinel has explosive resistance. Splash resistance, yes, but no explosive resistance.

I'm inclined to believe splash damage is untyped. Otherwise the amarr sentinel would be unstoppable entirely with missiles after the profile change from explosive to projectile on said items as it enjoys a further -15 projectile resistance.

Honestly the quiet noise being made about changing suit bonuses to being module dependent rather than inherent strikes me as the overall best solution to this problem.

That way if CCP makes hardeners you can bonus the fits to gain hardener efficiency. Or you could bonus them for plate efficiency.

If I had my choice I'd bonus cal for extenders, minmatar for resists, gallente for rep and amarr for plate efficiency.

I'm not really a fan of the static bonusing.

I nearly agreed with the OP until he brought up Breakin's KDR.

I then realized that he's just a stooge that doesn't realize this is a game meant to be played for fun and not some measure of a persons worth.

KDR <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Isk Efficiency Anyway.

Alright, we need some sense here.

If you're a scout and you start taking fire from a MD, how do you survive?

If you're a logo and you start taking fire from a MD, how do you survive?

If your answer was anything other than " book it for cover as fast as possible" congratulations, you're dead.

...So the splash resistance means you have as much chance of surviving a MD as the other suits, not so much that you avoid and evade the splash, but that you can soak it up better than most.

This is getting funny...

OP is obviously a troll, who tries to get MD buffed for that it can be nerfed into oblivion afterwards.

And why, because his Amarrian overseers do not like the MD as it already is...


And please OP, if you want to insult or provoke me in game, you have to give it a little more class... otherwise its just boring kiddo!