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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6566	Posted - 2014.09.04 04:01:00 - [1] - Quote Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread Charlie - DPS vs Effective Range vs Delta - DPS vs Effective Range The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Super Sniper95 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 199	Posted - 2014.09.04 04:04:00 - [2] - Quote Hmmm it's ok :) Oh by the way, do not nerf Sniper Rifle range please :) CCP please don't reduce Sniper Rifle range. If you do it I will be sad...
Grand Master Kubo PIanet Express Top Men. 117	Posted - 2014.09.04 04:09:00 - [3] - Quote I'm not too sure about that level of increase to Gallente Breach Assault Rifles. From personal experience, the breach assault rifle is very good already. Be careful with how much buff you give it.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6567	Posted - 2014.09.04 04:19:00 - [4] - Quote Grand Master Kubo wrote: I'm not too sure about that level of increase to Gallente Breach Assault Rifles. From personal experience, the breach assault rifle is very good already. Be careful with how much buff you give it. It will have the same DPS as the Gallente AR, after the changes. I am not too concerned, plus, very low K/S and very low usage. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11962	Posted - 2014.09.04 04:55:00 - [5] - Quote Love it Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 3977	Posted - 2014.09.04 04:55:00 - [6] - Quote The number may be a little high for the breach, though I'm curious if it will make it worth using. No changes on the assault plasma rifle? It may be the best of the bunch, but the thing is outperformed by most weapons even in its very limited intended range. I mean, it really is the only rifle to struggle vs the HMG in CQC and in short to mid range combat. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11962	Posted - 2014.09.04 04:56:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Grand Master Kubo wrote: I'm not too sure about that level of increase to Gallente Breach Assault Rifles. From personal experience, the breach assault rifle is very good already. Be careful with how much buff you give it. It will have the same DPS as the Gallente AR, after the changes. I am not too concerned, plus, very low K/S and very low usage. Would suggest putting it at a 11% increase. Breach is extremely accurate and has more range than Duvolle. Or you could buff my Duvolle to 35 damage :) Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 720	Posted - 2014.09.04 05:06:00 - [8] - Quote Combat rifle buffed ? These are WAY more instakilling than SCR but..anyway.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6572	Posted - 2014.09.04 05:23:00 - [9] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Combat rifle buffed ? These are WAY more instakilling than SCR but..anyway. and increased dispersion "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6572	Posted - 2014.09.04 05:24:00 - [10] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: The number may be a little high for the breach, though I'm curious if it will make it worth using. No changes on the assault plasma rifle? It may be the best of the bunch, but the thing is outperformed by most weapons even in its very limited intended range. I mean, it really is the only rifle to struggle vs the HMG in CQC and in short to mid range combat. It's also getting a tweak to dispersion, and we intend to make Assault bonuses for Gallente better in the future "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Rabbit C515 Die Valkyrja General Tso's Alliance 30	Posted - 2014.09.04 05:37:00 - [11] - Quote why nerf Scrambler rifle DPS? decrease more than a hundred ?! ScR Hipfire Kick is proposed to increase, so now this is another nerf?
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4766	Posted - 2014.09.04 05:39:00 - [12] - Quote Dammit. GG Rattati. I guess I will no longer be able to use my exploit that no one else in the game knows about. Oh well :P 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 3977	Posted - 2014.09.04 05:52:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: The number may be a little high for the breach, though I'm curious if it will make it worth using. No changes on the assault plasma rifle? It may be the best of the bunch, but the thing is outperformed by most weapons even in its very limited intended range. I mean, it really is the only rifle to struggle vs the HMG in CQC and in short to mid range combat. It's also getting a tweak to dispersion, and we intend to make Assault bonuses for Gallente better in the future Happy to hear :) "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6576	Posted - 2014.09.04 05:57:00 - [14] - Quote Rabbit C515 wrote: why nerf Scrambler rifle DPS? decrease more than a hundred ?! ScR Hipfire Kick is proposed to increase, so now this is another nerf? For tactical rifles like the TAR and Scrambler, this is theoretical maximum dps. Not sustainable dps. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 81	Posted - 2014.09.04 06:24:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: For tactical rifles like the TAR and Scrambler, this is theoretical maximum dps. Not sustainable dps. - You reduce SCR DPS by low down the ROF to 600, am I correct? - What else will you tweaks on SCR (dispersion, kick, heat)? Feeling, TacAR is coming back.............. Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
Racro 01 Arifistan 501st Knights of Leanbox 409	Posted - 2014.09.04 06:38:00 - [16] - Quote i love how much love my breach AR is getting.... my creo breach already serves me well. but its going to be even better at doing so *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 159	Posted - 2014.09.04 07:30:00 - [17] - Quote RedPencil wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: For tactical rifles like the TAR and Scrambler, this is theoretical maximum dps. Not sustainable dps. - You reduce SCR DPS by low down the ROF to 600, am I correct? - What else will you tweaks on SCR (dispersion, kick, heat)? Feeling, TacAR is coming back.............. Depends if and how much they touch the hipfire and on the tac. Not being able to hit the broad side of a barn in hip fire is the number 1 reason why its currently in the totally useless pile that only the most dense think it has any validity on a field. The opposite is true as well for the SCR, its still going to be wildly preferable to use it on a turbo but if kick and dispersion go up to current tac levels especially in hip fire mode it will be quickly put into the junk pile not to be touched except by the most foolish.
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 637	Posted - 2014.09.04 07:43:00 - [18] - Quote For dispersion tweaks, how big of a tweak are we talking? Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6590	Posted - 2014.09.04 08:33:00 - [19] - Quote RedPencil wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: For tactical rifles like the TAR and Scrambler, this is theoretical maximum dps. Not sustainable dps. - You reduce SCR DPS by low down the ROF to 600, am I correct? - What else will you tweaks on SCR (dispersion, kick, heat)? Feeling, TacAR is coming back.............. very small increase in hip fire kick "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 159	Posted - 2014.09.04 08:51:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: RedPencil wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: For tactical rifles like the TAR and Scrambler, this is theoretical maximum dps. Not sustainable dps. - You reduce SCR DPS by low down the ROF to 600, am I correct? - What else will you tweaks on SCR (dispersion, kick, heat)? Feeling, TacAR is coming back.............. very small increase in hip fire kick Out of curiosity have you guys come up with the new dmg profile for projectiles? I'd suggest looking at the damage done in a clip to say a gallente heavy or amarr heavy before their resistance is factored in. Combat rifles have lower dmg per clip as a balancing act with their lopsided damage profile, swinging them to a -20/20 profile actually makes them them as bad or worse than a proposed scrambler on an armor heavy

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2528	Posted - 2014.09.04 09:27:00 - [21] - Quote I am hoping for -20/+20 because armor needs to have a damage type that brutalizes it the way scrams do shields. Explosive weapons do not qualify given that Sentinels enjoy a 25% reduction to splash damage. They will enjoy no such advantage against projectiles with the proposed profiles. Kinda like how calsent and minsent get torched by scrams.
Macchi00 LORD-BRITISH 100	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:09:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Grand Master Kubo wrote: I'm not too sure about that level of increase to Gallente Breach Assault Rifles. From personal experience, the breach assault rifle is very good already. Be careful with how much buff you give it. It will have the same DPS as the Gallente AR, after the changes. I am not too concerned, plus, very low K/S and very low usage. Buff is necessary to bleach assault rifle. However, bleach assault rifle is not bad even while the current. I think buff of 14% is too much. 5n+P8% is reasonable. I love ForgeGun. I made ForgeGun montage in YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIhuGxfbjSQ
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2996	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:12:00 - [23] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I am hoping for -20/+20 because armor needs to have a damage type that brutalizes it the way scrams do shields. Explosive weapons do not qualify given that Sentinels enjoy a 25% reduction to splash damage. They will enjoy no such advantage against projectiles with the proposed profiles. Kinda like how calsent and minsent get torched by scrams. What I don't like about the damage profile is that there is a huge list of weapons meant to kill armor, and that change is just going to add to it. The overall HP of armor suits has been reduced tremendously; to the point my gallente suits have the same or less HP than my caldari suits. And for reference this is the list of weapons: Armor: CR (20/20:15/15), rail rifle (10/10), mass driver (20/20), flay lock pistol (20/20 weapon getting fixed), smg (20/20:15/15), magsec smg (10/10), HMG (20/20:15/15), bolt pistol (10/10), and the sniper rifle (10/10) Shields: assault rifle (10/10), scrambler rifle (20/20), scrambler pistol (20/20), ion pistol (10/10), shotgun (10/10), laser rifle (20/20) As you can see there is a lot more damage going around to kill armor and barely any to kill shields, you have one weapons. That shreds shields, one weapon that murders everything, a mediocre weapon, and then 3 weapons that require a ton of skill. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 159	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:17:00 - [24] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I am hoping for -20/+20 because armor needs to have a damage type that brutalizes it the way scrams do shields. Explosive weapons do not qualify given that Sentinels enjoy a 25% reduction to splash damage. They will enjoy no such advantage against projectiles with the proposed profiles. Kinda like how calsent and minsent get torched by scrams. So heres the funny. Going to a -20/20 profile actually makes use worse against an armor heavy. Lets do gallente so we can ignore the damage reduction on amarr. Gallente has 487 Base shields with skills, so lets pretend they don't use any shield extenders (lolwut I know but lets pretend). A proto CR does 29.7. So 487/(29.7*.8) gives us about 20.5 Rounds to deplete shields assuming no missing. With a bit of rounding this means we have 33.5 rounds to kill the armor. Against armor this means we will have 1343 dmg left in our clip against the heavy. This is actually tankable on proto heavy fits before we even worry adding in shield extenders. So what are the numbers today? 17 rounds to deplete shields, 1373 potential damage left in a clip. Not a big change in the world to be honest but still the damage profile works out to be less threatening against armor class/races. Now the more we add in things like shield extenders the worse it gets. Against amarr life improves some what. -20/20 Vs amarr 19 rounds to deplete shields 1247 left in clip 40.095 632.2 Today 16 Rounds to deplete 1241 damage left in clip amazing how much difference 37 shields make Realistically for an hmg heavy using the burst (theres a reason why its all the rage in pc) your best option is to actually stack shield extenders instead of the mathematically disappointing damage mods which widens the gap even further. Proto Gallente Stacking shields -20/20 26.6 rounds to deplete shields 1098 damage left Today 22.16 rounds to deplete 1182 Damage left Amarr Stacking Shields23.76 -20/20 23 rounds 1104 damage left Today 18.5 rounds, 1159 damage left The real winner of course is the caldari heavy, but when you scale this down to smaller suits I doubt anyone is really going to notice though, but no armor suit is really going to die any faster even to the premier combat rifle armor dps. If anything I can see an argument for at least adding 3-6 rounds to the CR.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2996	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:17:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Grand Master Kubo wrote: I'm not too sure about that level of increase to Gallente Breach Assault Rifles. From personal experience, the breach assault rifle is very good already. Be careful with how much buff you give it. It will have the same DPS as the Gallente AR, after the changes. I am not too concerned, plus, very low K/S and very low usage. Not to sure about that assault combat rifle dps buff, it will now have what looks like to be THE same dps it has before the reduction in profile which was around 440-450. I think it's dps should remain how it is now. And by comparison with that buff the Gallente AR dps feels to low now. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 159	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:28:00 - [26] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Grand Master Kubo wrote: I'm not too sure about that level of increase to Gallente Breach Assault Rifles. From personal experience, the breach assault rifle is very good already. Be careful with how much buff you give it. It will have the same DPS as the Gallente AR, after the changes. I am not too concerned, plus, very low K/S and very low usage. Not to sure about that assault combat rifle dps buff, it will now have what looks like to be THE same dps it has before the reduction in profile which was around 440-450. I think it's dps should remain how it is now. And by comparison with that buff the Gallente AR dps feels to low now. Unless the dispersion is very high it will be pretty much just as OP as it used to be. CCP Rattati wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: The number may be a little high for the breach, though I'm curious if it will make it worth using. No changes on the assault plasma rifle? It may be the best of the bunch, but the thing is outperformed by most weapons even in its very limited intended range. I mean, it really is the only rifle to struggle vs the HMG in CQC and in short to mid range combat. It's also getting a tweak to dispersion, and we intend to make Assault bonuses for Gallente better in the future The Assault rifle should perform well on its on without the Gallente assaults input, at that point then you can add in a better bonus. A assault suits makes a good weapon excellent, not a bad weapon good. Because of the nature of how this game plays (moar hipfire) any adjustments even minute because of the scale of accuracy ratings can wildly swing the effectiveness of a weapon. Lots of players simply over use ads to begin with, hipfire is so damn important in this game.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3451	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:31:00 - [27] - Quote Very good, however I would suggest just 10% more hipfire dispersion on the scrambler. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6604	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:33:00 - [28] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Very good, however I would suggest just 10% more hipfire dispersion on the scrambler. Small steps :) "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1260	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:48:00 - [29] - Quote Is it possible to jump standard assault rifle range up by a few meters? Their optimal competes directly with HMG's, leaving them in a slightly undesireable position, as you either want a HMG for its short range damage or any other weapon for their range. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3451	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:51:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Very good, however I would suggest just 10% more hipfire dispersion on the scrambler. Small steps :) Fair Enough, would you be able to modify the graph to show the ACTUAL DPS of the 2 burst variants? That's to say their max achievable including delay? Allotek Burst Rifle: 429 Boundless Combat Rifle: 415 If my calcs are correct. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3

BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2998	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:01:00 - [31] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Is it possible to jump standard assault rifle range up by a few meters? Their optimal competes directly with HMG's, leaving them in a slightly undesireable position, as you either want a HMG for its short range damage or any other weapon for their range. Or bump up the dps I don't think CCP wants to touch the range ever again.. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 765	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:04:00 - [32] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread Charlie - DPS vs Effective Range [img]http://i.imgur.com/lBiBE2q.png[/img] vs Delta - DPS vs Effective Range [img]http://i.imgur.com/GbLkMy9.png[/img] The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. looks fine but what about the Burst and slow ROF rifles? the burst are almost never used.. and the SLOW rof but damage versions are most never used because of lack of damage per shot to compensate low amount of shots down field to pick up on aim assist [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah
Coleman Gray Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1180	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:28:00 - [33] - Quote Anything to be done about Scr and RR's "efficiency problem"? If Preparation is half of the battle and knowing is the other half, Then there is no need to fight.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6609	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:33:00 - [34] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: Anything to be done about Scr and RR's "efficiency problem"? They are the benchmark for the other rifles. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 161	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:40:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Coleman Gray wrote: Anything to be done about Scr and RR's "efficiency problem"? They are the benchmark for the other rifles. lol no thats not what he means. Damage Profiles being reflected in the efficiency section of target info isn't documented in game, so generally when people post saying theres an efficiency problem they're actually telling you that the game is so inadequately documented that despite posting on forums where damage profiles are brought up hourly, they still havent figured out that the efficiency tooltip includes the profile adjustment. Its an eve carry over deal where a ccp project isnt documented well but doesnt have the kind of player base doing the documentation for them.
Macchi00 LORD-BRITISH 100	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:49:00 - [36] - Quote I uploaded the video that I was using a bleach assault rifle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SytAYcdVF7E Bleach assault rifle strong enough already. At the same, DPS of Bleach assault rifle and normal assault rifle is the same? Everyone will use the bleach assault rifle if it. I love ForgeGun. I made ForgeGun montage in YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIhuGxfbjSQ

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6615	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:59:00 - [37] - Quote Macchi00 wrote: I uploaded the video that I was using a bleach assault rifle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SytAYcdVF7E Bleach assault rifle strong enough already. At the same, DPS of Bleach assault rifle and normal assault rifle is the same? Everyone will use the bleach assault rifle if it. Watched it, great skill but not stunning evidence of a risk of the breach becoming OP. In many cases I thought you would have done better with a ACR or a Scrambler "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Macchi00 LORD-BRITISH 100	Posted - 2014.09.04 12:10:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Macchi00 wrote: I uploaded the video that I was using a bleach assault rifle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SytAYcdVF7E Bleach assault rifle strong enough already. At the same, DPS of Bleach assault rifle and normal assault rifle is the same? Everyone will use the bleach assault rifle if it. Watched it, great skill but not stunning evidence of a risk of the breach becoming OP. In many cases I thought you would have done better with a ACR or a Scrambler Sure, I would have been better results if SCR and ACR. I must admit Bleach assault rifle is of inferior to them. However, DPS is low recoil is small Bleach assault rifle. DPS is high recoil because there are many normal assault rifle. Is it useless with this? I love ForgeGun. I made ForgeGun montage in YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIhuGxfbjSQ
iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 269	Posted - 2014.09.04 12:44:00 - [39] - Quote 600 rof on scr seems reasonable but as i said in other thread if you break my gun i will be severly upset that will most likely include a rant thread ;). However by some of the players above asking too nerf it more, before even seeing how the rof nerf balances it shows that most of the hate generated towards the scr is biased.....just saying. "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3494	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:00:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) This is the only part I'm concerned about. I'm sure you have good reason for it, but I don't know. It makes me feel uneasy. Perhaps the dispersion and changed damage profile will be enough to balance it out. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community

JUDASisMYhomeboy xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 106	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:07:00 - [41] - Quote We need a hipfire nerf fo EVERY RIFLE. All of them. Almost nobody aims down sight anymore. Oh..and that breach buff is too much. Geez I suggested that not only should weapons I use be nerfed I also dont want a buff...am I a lunatic?
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3451	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:21:00 - [42] - Quote Rattatai, I suggest you look at the graph labeled 'Doc 1' here. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web It shows why the AScR was and still is under performing, it also shows that really the ARR could do with an optimal range nerf. While the graph you showed us at the beginning looks nice and balanced, because you are only using the effective ranges it doesn't show the full story. While I'm not necessarily this be done in time for delta, but . . . . The ACR still needs more damage. The AScR needs a lot more damage. The ARR needs a little more damage and a little less range. The Burst Rifles are to hard to judge with only 2 variants, but slope looks to steep to me. The Bursts effectively trade more damage for range than any other set of rifles. Breaches now seem pretty good to me. Tacticals are not included in this graph. Yellow is Breach Green is Assault Purple/Orange is Burst They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Travis Stanush Haus of Triage 183	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:30:00 - [43] - Quote Macchi00 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Grand Master Kubo wrote: I'm not too sure about that level of increase to Gallente Breach Assault Rifles. From personal experience, the breach assault rifle is very good already. Be careful with how much buff you give it. It will have the same DPS as the Gallente AR, after the changes. I am not too concerned, plus, very low K/S and very low usage. Buff is necessary to bleach assault rifle. However, bleach assault rifle is not bad even while the current. I think buff of 14% is too much. 5n+P8% is reasonable. No I need the extra power to clean my merc quarters Serious note: I think that this should be fine at 14% it will bring it closer in line with the RR. No I will not show you where they touched me!!!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6619	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:53:00 - [44] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Rattatai, I suggest you look at the graph labeled 'Doc 1' here. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web It shows why the AScR was and still is under performing, it also shows that really the ARR could do with an optimal range nerf. While the graph you showed us at the beginning looks nice and balanced, because you are only using the effective ranges it doesn't show the full story. While I'm not necessarily this be done in time for delta, but . . . . The ACR still needs more damage. The AScR needs a lot more damage. The ARR needs a little more damage and a little less range. The Burst Rifles are to hard to judge with only 2 variants, but slope looks to steep to me. The Bursts effectively trade more damage for range than any other set of rifles. Breaches now seem pretty good to me. Tacticals are not included in this graph. Yellow is Breach Green is Assault Purple/Orange is Burst they all have very similar slopes, that you can read from the formula, more or less y=-0.02x, thanks for the input and spreadsheet "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mauren NOON The Exemplars 437	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:56:00 - [45] - Quote Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6619	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:58:00 - [46] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mauren NOON The Exemplars 437	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:02:00 - [47] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? Well yes I read the whole thing but a slight increase in dispersion won't mean anything because it doesn't have any right now. It needs a little kick too if you ask me Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 3978	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:05:00 - [48] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Rattatai, I suggest you look at the graph labeled 'Doc 1' here. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web It shows why the AScR was and still is under performing, it also shows that really the ARR could do with an optimal range nerf. While the graph you showed us at the beginning looks nice and balanced, because you are only using the effective ranges it doesn't show the full story. While I'm not necessarily this be done in time for delta, but . . . . The ACR still needs more damage. The AScR needs a lot more damage. The ARR needs a little more damage and a little less range. The Burst Rifles are to hard to judge with only 2 variants, but slope looks to steep to me. The Bursts effectively trade more damage for range than any other set of rifles. Breaches now seem pretty good to me. Tacticals are not included in this graph. Yellow is Breach Green is Assault Purple/Orange is Burst I think the problem with the AScR is the RoF, maybe buff that slightly and the dmg. The RoF can't compensate for it's low dmg profile vs armour unlike the normal ScR with its high dmg and RoF. The ARR dmg is pretty damn high, I honestly don't think it needs a change except to make it less useful at CQC and really make I it a mid range fighter. Maybe reduce the kick on it slightly and or give the Caldari assault a bonus to rail tech kick. I'm going to have to completely disagree with buff the ACR, those things already melt through armour and shields alike. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 270	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:05:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? i see you have to type "look at my op" every thread why do you bother? they will eventually see it and it has to be f'n annoying "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
Mauren NOON The Exemplars 437	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:08:00 - [50] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? i see you have to type "look at my op" every thread why do you bother? they will eventually see it and it has to be f'n annoying Yep didnt read the post first...you apparently didn't read mine Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!

iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 271	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:09:00 - [51] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? i see you have to type "look at my op" every thread why do you bother? they will eventually see it and it has to be f'n annoying Yep didnt read the post first...you apparently didn't read mine no we posted at relatively same time, look at time posted derpty derp durp "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
UNST0PPABLE F0RCE Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:09:00 - [52] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? Well yes I read the whole thing but a slight increase in dispersion won't mean anything because it doesn't have any right now. It needs a little kick too if you ask me OH NO! A whole 4% the world is going to end!
Mauren NOON The Exemplars 437	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:12:00 - [53] - Quote UNST0PPABLE F0RCE wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? Well yes I read the whole thing but a slight increase in dispersion won't mean anything because it doesn't have any right now. It needs a little kick too if you ask me OH NO! A whole 4% the world is going to end! I know right. The strongest racial rifle gets stronger. The definition of "Balance" right? Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!
iliel 154	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:51:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. I'm glad that you are being reasonable to the ACR and not listening to complainers. Hopefully, this leaves it and the Breach on somewhat equal footing. Could you elaborate what exactly long range is. I'm assuming 60+ meters?
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 485	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:18:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: The number may be a little high for the breach, though I'm curious if it will make it worth using. No changes on the assault plasma rifle? It may be the best of the bunch, but the thing is outperformed by most weapons even in its very limited intended range. I mean, it really is the only rifle to struggle vs the HMG in CQC and in short to mid range combat. It's also getting a tweak to dispersion, and we intend to make Assault bonuses for Gallente better in the future A clue!!
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3255	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:26:00 - [56] - Quote Rattai, You see where the Rail Rifle is places on your Delta chart vs. the Assault Rail Rifle? You should consider in Delta or Echo, making the Breach Plasma Rifle about the same in relation to the Assault Plasma Rifle. Otherwise, even after the buff, the APR is still far superior to the BPR. Higher RoF pretty much always wins at similar range and dps. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
voidfaction Nos Nothi 508	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:30:00 - [57] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? Is the projectile dmg profile still changing to -15/+15 or something? If so you should add that to the point on the CR buff as it's not really a buff if they will be losing 10% dmg vs shield.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 226	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:31:00 - [58] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: i love how much love my breach AR is getting.... my creo breach already serves me well. but its going to be even better at doing so Creo was always my favourite AR, looks like i may have to revisit it. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1483	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:13:00 - [59] - Quote So.. We're doing literally nothing to the AScR, the really underperforming one.. At least I'll be the only one to use it I guess.. If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 717	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:24:00 - [60] - Quote Just a few questions so I can understand the chart better: - What is the point of the Breach AR? It has the same DPS and range as the normal AR. Wouldn't the Breach - as an imitation of the RR - have longer range at lower DPS? - Shouldn't the RR have a different DPS/Range slope than the Assault variants? The RR has more range and thus gets less DPS. On top of that it has a charge-up time so it'll have to catch up somehow. (Unless we assume that ranges over 90 meters 'cost extra' DPS.) Extra philosophical question: Shouldn't the Range/DPS chart put rifles on a hyperbola? Examples that support the hypothesis: 0 meter range should yield infinite DPS and infinite range should yield zero DPS Right now zero range means 594 DPS and ranges over 300 meters mean you heal your target )

Mauren NOON The Exemplars 438	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:27:00 - [61] - Quote iliel wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. I'm glad that you are being reasonable to the ACR and not listening to complainers. Hopefully, this leaves it and the Breach on somewhat equal footing. Could you elaborate what exactly long range is. I'm assuming 60+ meters? I hope you were not just saying that the ACR needed a buff..... Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 25	Posted - 2014.09.04 17:56:00 - [62] - Quote JUDASisMYhomeboy wrote: We need a hipfire nerf fo EVERY RIFLE. All of them. Almost nobody aims down sight anymore. [...] This +1
Boot Booter Pure Evil. 897	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:32:00 - [63] - Quote Hi Rattati, I like the changes however, the breach AR should have a lower dps and higher range than the regular AR. It should follow along with the RR line essentially. The ARR to the RR should be a model for the AR to the BAR. If you give the breach the same dps and range as the AR everyone will use the breach instead. Not saying it'll be OP but it will have higher alpha and larger damage per clip compared to the regular AR. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3451	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:43:00 - [64] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Rattatai, I suggest you look at the graph labeled 'Doc 1' here. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web It shows why the AScR was and still is under performing, it also shows that really the ARR could do with an optimal range nerf. While the graph you showed us at the beginning looks nice and balanced, because you are only using the effective ranges it doesn't show the full story. While I'm not necessarily this be done in time for delta, but . . . . The ACR still needs more damage. The AScR needs a lot more damage. The ARR needs a little more damage and a little less range. The Burst Rifles are to hard to judge with only 2 variants, but slope looks to steep to me. The Bursts effectively trade more damage for range than any other set of rifles. Breaches now seem pretty good to me. Tacticals are not included in this graph. Yellow is Breach Green is Assault Purple/Orange is Burst they all have very similar slopes, that you can read from the formula, more or less y=-0.02x, thanks for the input and spreadsheet Fair enough, however bear in mind the AScR is under performing because it sits under that line of best fit. I would suggest you make the optimals fit a linear degradation while the effectives follow a paroblic curve. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 265	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:49:00 - [65] - Quote When balancing, are we taking into account the fitting factor? Is there any reason for the Laser and A SCR and SCR rifle be very hard to fit compared to a CR or ACR (which have lower fitting requirements than many sidearms) Also, I would like to see a little additional range on the Burst Ass. Rifle. It's essentially a combat rifle with much worse hip firing, lower ROF, and a different damage profile. What advantage does it have over a CR?
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1683	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:50:00 - [66] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Combat rifle buffed ? These are WAY more instakilling than SCR but..anyway. and increased dispersion I have to ask, how much of an increased dispersion? 10%? 50%? Shoot Scout with yes.
Mauren NOON The Exemplars 439	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:52:00 - [67] - Quote Dustbunny Durrr wrote: When balancing, are we taking into account the fitting factor? Is there any reason for the Laser and A SCR and SCR rifle be very hard to fit compared to a CR or ACR (which have lower fitting requirements than many sidearms) +1 Laser weapons are way to expensive to fit compared to projectiles... Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!
Alam Storm Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 69	Posted - 2014.09.04 19:08:00 - [68] - Quote i like the tactical assault rifle with the RoF its got now it just needs a small range buff a damage buff and 3 more bullets i put an example here tactical assualt rifle buff
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 866	Posted - 2014.09.04 19:25:00 - [69] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Grand Master Kubo wrote: I'm not too sure about that level of increase to Gallente Breach Assault Rifles. From personal experience, the breach assault rifle is very good already. Be careful with how much buff you give it. It will have the same DPS as the Gallente AR, after the changes. I am not too concerned, plus, very low K/S and very low usage. It doesn't matter if it has same DPS as the normal AR, It matter's because it is way easier to apply damage with a slow firing weapon than fast. This is also the reason RR is good at CQC, It can apply damage consistently and easily. Be careful, I see a lot of Breach Ar kills now a days, 14% seems too much. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11969	Posted - 2014.09.04 19:29:00 - [70] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: So.. We're doing literally nothing to the AScR, the really underperforming one.. At least I'll be the only one to use it I guess.. Nothing in the numbers suggest it should underperform. Literally nothing, it has amazing dispersion, amazing reload speed (best in class), gigantic clip (best in class), good DPS (isn't far from the other rifles at all), and the second longest range of the Assault variant rifles. If anything, this rifle by all rights should be the #1 rifle used. What's happening is the meta needs to shift to shields before it can really shine with its +20/-20 efficiency. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC

Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 206	Posted - 2014.09.04 19:50:00 - [71] - Quote i knew sacrificing all those goats would payoff, thank baby jesus i wont have to spec rail or combat rifles lets just burn this motherfucker down pew pew goes my scram rifle zap zap goes my scram pistol
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 718	Posted - 2014.09.04 20:03:00 - [72] - Quote Dustbunny Durrr wrote: When balancing, are we taking into account the fitting factor? Is there any reason for the Laser and A SCR and SCR rifle be very hard to fit compared to a CR or ACR (which have lower fitting requirements than many sidearms) Also, I would like to see a little additional range on the Burst Ass. Rifle. It's essentially a combat rifle with much worse hip firing, lower ROF, and a different damage profile. What advantage does it have over a CR? Huge issue right there. Why use an AScR when you can fit a ACR for half the fitting cost?
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3001	Posted - 2014.09.04 20:41:00 - [73] - Quote it seems to me that the have assault rifle will still under perform when compared to every other gun. The combat rifle will probably now keep its tittle as the light close quarters combat king; also there are no spoken changes about the rail rifle which continues to out perform the AR in close quarters combat. There needs to be slightly more drastic changes to bring about balance to the weapon of this game. Long range weapon should have no chance in competing at close range just as short range weapon have no chance in competing at long range that would include either more noticeable damage per second differences or more drastic accuracy changes at the cqc level for example a ACR and CR should have greater dispersion than an AR, when you say a slight increase to dispersion I hope you mean a slight increase from the AR. The RR and SCR should have much much higher dispersion than an AR or ACR. The we can also take into account recoil and such where a cqc weapon would have more recoil at ads and a long range weapon less recoil or at least more manageable recoil. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1723	Posted - 2014.09.04 20:53:00 - [74] - Quote I think this is a great start, but I think you are looking at the data incorrectly. This also stems from the fact that as long as you are inside your rifles optimal range you deal full damage. Instead it should be similar to the laser rifle where its on a bell curve with its optimal damage vs range. The laser rifle does full damage only inside its optimal, go closer or farther away and it does less damage. I think to really give the rifles purpose, balance and utility. They need similar DPS only in their optimal ranges and outside those optimal range your DPS falls off like a bell curve. So for example (these are not realistic numbers) Clarification: outside of optimal range means getting closer or farther away from it. Assault rifles: Burst: Optimal range 6800, @ optimal range it does 600 DPS for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. Breach: Optimal range 6000, @ optimal range it does 700 DPS for every meter outside it does 2% less damage. Standard: Optimal range 6500, @ optimal range it does 650 DPS for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. Tactical: Optimal range 9000, @ optimal range it does 600 DPS for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. Combat Rifle: Standard: Optimal range 8000, @ optimal range it does 600 DPS for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. Assault: Optimal range 7300, @ optimal range it does 700 DPS, for every meter outside that it does 2% less damage. Scrambler Rifle: Assault: Optimal Range 8200, @ optimal range it does 700 DPS, for every meter outside that it does 2% less damage. Standard: Optimal Range 9500, @ optimal range it does 600 DPS, for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. ETC ETC ETC. Would be best if optimal range/DPS would fall into a bell curve instead of linear as above example states, but it gets wordy. I assume you understand what I mean when I say bell curve. You get uniformity and balance. Each weapon type falls into a category of short vs long. DPS will be derived from its optimal range. Its easier to balance this way because it allows you to get inside and outsides someones optimal range. Each rifle is built for a purpose as opposed to choosing the weapon with the highest DPS for its range. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Boot Booter Pure Evil. 899	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:07:00 - [75] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: I think this is a great start, but I think you are looking at the data incorrectly. This also stems from the fact that as long as you are inside your rifles optimal range you deal full damage. Instead it should be similar to the laser rifle where its on a bell curve with its optimal damage vs range. The laser rifle does full damage only inside its optimal, go closer or farther away and it does less damage. I think to really give the rifles purpose, balance and utility. They need similar DPS only in their optimal ranges and outside those optimal range your DPS falls off like a bell curve. So for example (these are not realistic numbers) Clarification: outside of optimal range means getting closer or farther away from it. Assault rifles: Burst: Optimal range 6800, @ optimal range it does 600 DPS for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. Breach: Optimal range 6000, @ optimal range it does 700 DPS for every meter outside it does 2% less damage. Standard: Optimal range 6500, @ optimal range it does 650 DPS for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. Tactical: Optimal range 9000, @ optimal range it does 600 DPS for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. Combat Rifle: Standard: Optimal range 8000, @ optimal range it does 600 DPS for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. Assault: Optimal range 7300, @ optimal range it does 700 DPS, for every meter outside that it does 2% less damage. Scrambler Rifle: Assault: Optimal Range 8200, @ optimal range it does 700 DPS, for every meter outside that it does 2% less damage. Standard: Optimal Range 9500, @ optimal range it does 600 DPS, for every meter outside that it does 1% less damage. ETC ETC ETC. Would be best if optimal range/DPS would fall into a bell curve instead of linear as above example states, but it gets wordy. I assume you understand what I mean when I say bell curve. You get uniformity and balance. Each weapon type falls into a category of short vs long. DPS will be derived from its optimal range. Its easier to balance this way because it allows you to get inside and outsides someones optimal range. Each rifle is built for a purpose as opposed to choosing the weapon with the highest DPS for its range. You also get the desired effect without worrying a bunch of balancing, so you get kings of CQC (GAL), Middle ground (Minja), and long range (Amarr/Caldari) It's an interesting balancing idea for sure, but is this realistic? Why would a rail rifle slug do less damage at 5 m than 50m. It just doesn't make any physical sense. I think a better balancing mechanic is the hip fire dispersion. It should be quite large on long range weapons and relatively smaller on CQC weapons. In essence I think the plot should be 3 dimensional (dps, range, accuracy (dispersion))?? What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 79	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:10:00 - [76] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread Charlie - DPS vs Effective Range [img]http://i.imgur.com/lBiBE2q.png[/img] vs Delta - DPS vs Effective Range [img]http://i.imgur.com/GbLkMy9.png[/img] The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. Rattati, I am glad to see you all went with the 600 Rof that Ratamaq and I proposed in the ScR thread. This is also great news for the plasma rifles as well. The Assault Scrambler Rifle now, is this seeing any damage boosts or anyhing to help it's current situation? The armor tanking majority is very well prepared against this weapon. If the ads burst dispersion could be tightened, or a slight dmg boost applied, then I think we will be on a good path to getting this weapon right. The AScR is a ranged preferable weapon, but imo i think that the ads Dispersion could be a little more "Lasery."
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1724	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:11:00 - [77] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: snip It's an interesting balancing idea for sure, but is this realistic? Why would a rail rifle slug do less damage at 5 m than 50m. It just doesn't make any physical sense. I think a better balancing mechanic is the hip fire dispersion. It should be quite large on long range weapons and relatively smaller on CQC weapons. In essence I think the plot should be 3 dimensional (dps, range, accuracy (dispersion))?? Because its a video game and balance is more important than having things be realistic. It could be that the bullet velocity takes 80m to get up to its full damage potential. Velocity is just as important as the mass of the bullet in calculating kinetic energy. Having large dispersion can balance it to some effect, but if people spam the bullets in short range you feel cheated if they kill you. It becomes a luck factor instead of skill/tactics. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3001	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:14:00 - [78] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Boot Booter wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: snip It's an interesting balancing idea for sure, but is this realistic? Why would a rail rifle slug do less damage at 5 m than 50m. It just doesn't make any physical sense. I think a better balancing mechanic is the hip fire dispersion. It should be quite large on long range weapons and relatively smaller on CQC weapons. In essence I think the plot should be 3 dimensional (dps, range, accuracy (dispersion))?? Because its a video game and balance is more important than having things be realistic. It could be that the bullet velocity takes 80m to get up to its full damage potential. Velocity is just as important as the mass of the bullet in calculating kinetic energy. Having large dispersion can balance it to some effect, but if people spam the bullets in short range you feel cheated if they kill you. It becomes a luck factor instead of skill/tactics. Balance is possible with realism in mind. Which brings to question why would the bullet take 80M to do full damage? Velocity would be at it's peak when it leaves the barrel since the bullet has more energy pushing it. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1724	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:21:00 - [79] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Boot Booter wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: snip It's an interesting balancing idea for sure, but is this realistic? Why would a rail rifle slug do less damage at 5 m than 50m. It just doesn't make any physical sense. I think a better balancing mechanic is the hip fire dispersion. It should be quite large on long range weapons and relatively smaller on CQC weapons. In essence I think the plot should be 3 dimensional (dps, range, accuracy (dispersion))?? Because its a video game and balance is more important than having things be realistic. It could be that the bullet velocity takes 80m to get up to its full damage potential. Velocity is just as important as the mass of the bullet in calculating kinetic energy. Having large dispersion can balance it to some effect, but if people spam the bullets in short range you feel cheated if they kill you. It becomes a luck factor instead of skill/tactics. Balance is possible with realism in mind. Which brings to question why would the bullet take 80M to do full damage? Velocity would be at it's peak when it leaves the barrel since the bullet has more energy pushing it. Not if the bullet has internal propulsion to ensure it goes the distance. How is having high dispersion any more realistic? My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
gauntlet44 LbowDeep Heaven84 Devils General Tso's Alliance 118	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:26:00 - [80] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: i love how much love my breach AR is getting.... my creo breach already serves me well. but its going to be even better at doing so it has always been my favorite Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, make it uniquely your own........ Bruce Lee

BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3003	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:29:00 - [81] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Boot Booter wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: snip It's an interesting balancing idea for sure, but is this realistic? Why would a rail rifle slug do less damage at 5 m than 50m. It just doesn't make any physical sense. I think a better balancing mechanic is the hip fire dispersion. It should be quite large on long range weapons and relatively smaller on CQC weapons. In essence I think the plot should be 3 dimensional (dps, range, accuracy (dispersion))?? Because its a video game and balance is more important than having things be realistic. It could be that the bullet velocity takes 80m to get up to its full damage potential. Velocity is just as important as the mass of the bullet in calculating kinetic energy. Having large dispersion can balance it to some effect, but if people spam the bullets in short range you feel cheated if they kill you. It becomes a luck factor instead of skill/tactics. Balance is possible with realism in mind. Which brings to question why would the bullet take 80M to do full damage? Velocity would be at it's peak when it leaves the barrel since the bullet has more energy pushing it. Not if the bullet has internal propulsion to ensure it goes the distance. How is having high dispersion any more realistic? A weapon firing with enough force to cover a long distance would have a high amount of kick unless all the energy can be transferred into the projectile which would be almost impossible without obliterating the projectile thus excess energy will be transferred down the barrel and into the weapon which creates high kick. So internal propulsion of a very tiny projectile is possible? How much energy would it require and how much of X energy can you store within the projectile without making it to light (because it is hollow now) so it won't again, be obliterated. As for dispersion since there is a lot of kick and you hip firing it it will start kicking everywhere and the bullets will go everywhere; rather than placing the weapon closer to your center of gravity which will mitigate the kick slightly by transferring energy down your body. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
ConantheCimmerian Murphys-Law 57	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:47:00 - [82] - Quote Super Sniper95 wrote: Hmmm it's ok :) Oh by the way, do not nerf Sniper Rifle range please :) If they have 500 + m range. Then my 7,000 m/s FG should be 1k + or at least = to the range of a sniper. For fucks sake. Its a small-arm Pilot-The Black Corsair (funny comment)
ConantheCimmerian Murphys-Law 57	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:51:00 - [83] - Quote A weapon firing with enough force to cover a long distance would have a high amount of kick unless all the energy can be transferred into the projectile which would be almost impossible without obliterating the projectile thus excess energy will be transferred down the barrel and into the weapon which creates high kick. So internal propulsion of a very tiny projectile is possible? How much energy would it require and how much of X energy can you store within the projectile without making it to light (because it is hollow now) so it won't again, be obliterated. As for dispersion since there is a lot of kick and you hip firing it it will start kicking everywhere and the bullets will go everywhere; rather than placing the weapon closer to your center of gravity which will mitigate the kick slightly by transferring energy down your body.[/quote] Look up the Kriss .45 acp PDW and chexk out its buffer system. Current tech, meant for sustainable accurate fire, mitigating a higher percent of felt recoil than any other available small arm system Pilot-The Black Corsair (funny comment)
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3003	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:59:00 - [84] - Quote ConantheCimmerian wrote: A weapon firing with enough force to cover a long distance would have a high amount of kick unless all the energy can be transferred into the projectile which would be almost impossible without obliterating the projectile thus excess energy will be transferred down the barrel and into the weapon which creates high kick. So internal propulsion of a very tiny projectile is possible? How much energy would it require and how much of X energy can you store within the projectile without making it to light (because it is hollow now) so it won't again, be obliterated. As for dispersion since there is a lot of kick and you hip firing it it will start kicking everywhere and the bullets will go everywhere; rather than placing the weapon closer to your center of gravity which will mitigate the kick slightly by transferring energy down your body. Look up the Kriss .45 acp PDW and chexk out its buffer system. Current tech, meant for sustainable accurate fire, mitigating a higher percent of felt recoil than any other available small arm system[/quote] That is very interesting, but if you read closely they way that weapon mitigates recoil is through its ergonomics + "...use an unconventional delayed blowback system..." but who knows how that applies to an actual rifle. So far that system only exists for that weapon and its manufacturer. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Boot Booter Pure Evil. 901	Posted - 2014.09.04 22:00:00 - [85] - Quote ConantheCimmerian wrote: A weapon firing with enough force to cover a long distance would have a high amount of kick unless all the energy can be transferred into the projectile which would be almost impossible without obliterating the projectile thus excess energy will be transferred down the barrel and into the weapon which creates high kick. So internal propulsion of a very tiny projectile is possible? How much energy would it require and how much of X energy can you store within the projectile without making it to light (because it is hollow now) so it won't again, be obliterated. As for dispersion since there is a lot of kick and you hip firing it it will start kicking everywhere and the bullets will go everywhere; rather than placing the weapon closer to your center of gravity which will mitigate the kick slightly by transferring energy down your body. Look up the Kriss .45 acp PDW and chexk out its buffer system. Current tech, meant for sustainable accurate fire, mitigating a higher percent of felt recoil than any other available small arm system[/quote] OK guys, pump the brakes a bit. Obviously we have to make some exceptions for balancing. The point is, having bell curved damage profiles would be not only unrealistic but feel very weird. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
DarthMcFizzle MOOSE-KNUCKLEz CLAN 110	Posted - 2014.09.04 22:33:00 - [86] - Quote Oh, so my plasma rifle still sucks, ok then. But to be honest I don't really want it to be buffed because the whole like ten of us that have stuck with it would wreck house if ever it actually got on the same level as the other rifles. Then it would be nerfed right back to square one. (inb4 git gud scrub Ar iz fine)
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3451	Posted - 2014.09.04 22:52:00 - [87] - Quote ConantheCimmerian wrote: Some other fella wrote: A weapon firing with enough force to cover a long distance would have a high amount of kick unless all the energy can be transferred into the projectile which would be almost impossible without obliterating the projectile thus excess energy will be transferred down the barrel and into the weapon which creates high kick. So internal propulsion of a very tiny projectile is possible? How much energy would it require and how much of X energy can you store within the projectile without making it to light (because it is hollow now) so it won't again, be obliterated. As for dispersion since there is a lot of kick and you hip firing it it will start kicking everywhere and the bullets will go everywhere; rather than placing the weapon closer to your center of gravity which will mitigate the kick slightly by transferring energy down your body. Look up the Kriss .45 acp PDW and chexk out its buffer system. Current tech, meant for sustainable accurate fire, mitigating a higher percent of felt recoil than any other available small arm system The PDW fires much lower than average calibre rounds (about the same caliber as 9mm pistol round) and even then it fires the round at a lower speed than a conentional rifle using the same calibre. For intrest purposes, the delayed blowback system, is a recoil mitigation system. It works by allowing the bolt and associated moving parts to move dowward (as opposed to backwards into the shoulder) then the return trip provides the same force in the opposite direction. Coincidentally this why it is nicknamed the vector. The thing when using real world rifles as examples is you have to remember 2 things. 1) In Modern Warfare (non-gorilla/asymmetric) incapacitated enemies are considered better than dead ones. Incapacitated enemies require CASEVAC, medical treatment, logistics support, etc etc. On average every man injured reduces the armies force strength by 20. Everyman dead reduces it by 1. 2) Only 1 flesh wound is required to incapacitate MOST soilders. More often than not if your shot that's your rotation over, you come back home for treatment and you have to wait until your flights next rotation to the front. Here in DUST we have high composite armour and shields that make it require a lot more than average to take you down, Every shot from a plasma rifle would disintegrate your average man. Minmatar bullets would cleave a man's torso from the rest of him. We have railguns that fire slugs as heavy as a kettle at speeds that would achieve well beyond escape velocity and laser's that have enough energy to actually do damage. However this game runs of 'suspended belief' that the technology used is feasible, in the not too distant future, there will be some realism, mostly in the laws of physics, social constructs, architecture, weapon design ( barrel, magazine, scope and trigger) and many other things you maynot even notice, but make the world more believeable. In terms of putting a bell curve on all the rifles. 1) What's the point of a general purpose rifle? 2) What's the laser rifles unique feature? 3) In terms of the laws of physics has it feasible? 4) Why would I use a long range weapon that peanilises me for getting to far away? 5) Why would I use a short range weapon that peanilises me fot getting to close? They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 206	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:01:00 - [88] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: So.. We're doing literally nothing to the AScR, the really underperforming one.. At least I'll be the only one to use it I guess.. Nothing in the numbers suggest it should underperform. Literally nothing, it has amazing dispersion, amazing reload speed (best in class), gigantic clip (best in class), good DPS (isn't far from the other rifles at all), and the second longest range of the Assault variant rifles. If anything, this rifle by all rights should be the #1 rifle used. What's happening is the meta needs to shift to shields before it can really shine with its +20/-20 efficiency. the fact that it now overheats before a full clip on anything but an assault lvl 5 has ruined it imho lets just burn this motherfucker down pew pew goes my scram rifle zap zap goes my scram pistol

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6663	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:20:00 - [89] - Quote JDEZ09 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread Charlie - DPS vs Effective Range vs Delta - DPS vs Effective Range The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. Rattati, I am glad to see you all went with the 600 Rof that Ratamaq and I proposed in the ScR thread. This is also great news for the plasma rifles as well. The Assault Scrambler Rifle now, is this seeing any damage boosts or anyhing to help it's current situation? The armor tanking majority is very well prepared against this weapon. If the ads burst dispersion could be tightened, or a slight dmg boost applied, then I think we will be on a good path to getting this weapon right. The AScR is a ranged preferable weapon, but imo i think that the ads Dispersion could be a little more "Lasery." A slight ADS dispersion reduction could be added to make it shine. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2210	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:32:00 - [90] - Quote Good and rational changes. Primary remaining concerns are the effectiveness of SRs and RRs in cqc. It still feels like the other races can step fearlessly into what should be Gallente territory, whereas the Gallente who attempt to step into the three other races territories are just dead meat. As far as balancing fitting costs, it makes sense to keep that a separate discussion - balance the physical performance of the weapons first and once that has more or less stabalized make a pass on fitting costs. PSN: RationalSpark

Jin no kami Valor Coalition Red Whines. 81	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:38:00 - [91] - Quote Give the tac 2more bullets smh
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 206	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:41:00 - [92] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: A slight ADS dispersion reduction could be added to make it shine. in regards to the assault scram rifle could you make it cool down faster instead? lets just burn this motherfucker down pew pew goes my scram rifle zap zap goes my scram pistol
Zindorak 1.U.P 796	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:46:00 - [93] - Quote Im happy the AR variants are getting buffs but i would like a slight buff to the normal AR as it feels vey weak to me with 2 Enhanced DMG mods and prof 3 Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Zindorak 1.U.P 797	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:57:00 - [94] - Quote 600 I can live with that Thanks for finding a good number CCP Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3005	Posted - 2014.09.05 00:17:00 - [95] - Quote Nothing to see here supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1691	Posted - 2014.09.05 00:36:00 - [96] - Quote Rattati, on the ACR, how much dispersion increase are we talking percentage wise? Hipfire or ADS, or both? Shoot Scout with yes.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2253	Posted - 2014.09.05 00:49:00 - [97] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Combat rifle buffed ? These are WAY more instakilling than SCR but..anyway. Only if you stack armor like a scrub "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Zindorak 1.U.P 801	Posted - 2014.09.05 00:52:00 - [98] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Zindorak wrote: 600 I can live with that Thanks for finding a good number CCP Your talking about the rof of the Tac and ScR right? Yea Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3006	Posted - 2014.09.05 01:03:00 - [99] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati, on the ACR, how much dispersion increase are we talking percentage wise? Hipfire or ADS, or both? I hope it's like 20% over the assault rifles dispersion. Because if they "slightly" increased the dispersion of the CR as is, well let me tell you 20% of 0 is still 0 supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1724	Posted - 2014.09.05 01:05:00 - [100] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: In terms of putting a bell curve on all the rifles. 1) What's the point of a general purpose rifle? 2) What's the laser rifles unique feature? 3) In terms of the laws of physics has it feasible? 4) Why would I use a long range weapon that peanilises me for getting to far away? 5) Why would I use a short range weapon that peanilises me fot getting to close? 1. We currently have all the rifles as "general purpose" they all do full damage inside their optimal ranges. Which means the Combat Rifle is just as good in CQC as the Assault Rifle. Which IMO makes balancing difficult. Whichever has the highest avg DPS is the winner. Which means the rifle that encompasses the vast majority of encounters in their optimal ranges. 2. Why does the laser rifle have a unique feature anyway? It really doesn't make sense for the laser rifle to under perform in all situations besides the "most optimal" when no other weapon behaves this way. The laser rifle is probably the least used for that reason. All other weapons outperform it because the laser has to be in a very specific range to be effective. It doesn't have a bell curve, its more like a steep peak outside of its optimal. 3. I don't think physics has much to do with video games, as described previously, you can "justify" it however you want. You don't have to break immersion to do so. 4. You already are penalized for using long range weaponry by getting to far away. Once you exceed the optimal range you lose effectiveness. The closer you get outside your optimal, you still do the same damage. So the only way to mitigate damage is to gain range on an opponent. Speed tanking would actually be a viable strategy as you could get inside enemies optimal ranges quickly. 5. Same as above. Creating bell curved damage profiles allow weapons to exceed in their designated "area" without becoming OP outside of those zones. It would homogenize the DPS of the rifles while still allowing them to exceed in their zone of engagement. The AR will underperform if its DPS is below other rifles because it has such short range. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1693	Posted - 2014.09.05 01:05:00 - [101] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati, on the ACR, how much dispersion increase are we talking percentage wise? Hipfire or ADS, or both? I hope it's like 20% over the assault rifles dispersion. Because if they "slightly" increased the dispersion of the CR as is, well let me tell you 20% of 0 is still 0 To be honest, more dispersion just makes my sharpshooter that much more useful to me. I just don't want it to be, say, 50% more, and anything beyond 15m is nigh untouchable. Shoot Scout with yes.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3007	Posted - 2014.09.05 01:40:00 - [102] - Quote Db post supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3007	Posted - 2014.09.05 01:42:00 - [103] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati, on the ACR, how much dispersion increase are we talking percentage wise? Hipfire or ADS, or both? I hope it's like 20% over the assault rifles dispersion. Because if they "slightly" increased the dispersion of the CR as is, well let me tell you 20% of 0 is still 0 To be honest, more dispersion just makes my sharpshooter that much more useful to me. I just don't want it to be, say, 50% more, and anything beyond 15m is nigh untouchable. Well 50% more than an AR is pretty bad foe the ACR, but 50% more of a acr and it would probably be about the same or a hair higher than an AR which imo would be to low. Then again without anyway of know what the dispersion is except by visualizing it through physical testing I don't know what these changes will bring, all I can hope for is that the rifles are fixed fairly once and for all. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Michael Arck 5402	Posted - 2014.09.05 01:57:00 - [104] - Quote So taking this information coupled with the damage profile changes proposition, this just might be good. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11985	Posted - 2014.09.05 04:46:00 - [105] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: Cat Merc wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: So.. We're doing literally nothing to the AScR, the really underperforming one.. At least I'll be the only one to use it I guess.. Nothing in the numbers suggest it should underperform. Literally nothing, it has amazing dispersion, amazing reload speed (best in class), gigantic clip (best in class), good DPS (isn't far from the other rifles at all), and the second longest range of the Assault variant rifles. If anything, this rifle by all rights should be the #1 rifle used. What's happening is the meta needs to shift to shields before it can really shine with its +20/-20 efficiency. the fact that it now overheats before a full clip on anything but an assault lvl 5 has ruined it imho It still does more damage before overheat than the ARR and ACR do in a full clip. With the Amarr Assault it even surpasses the Plasma Rifle in that regard. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11985	Posted - 2014.09.05 04:51:00 - [106] - Quote Buffing the ASCR would be a terrible decision. Taking out the efficiencies, it's an amazing rifle for many many reasons. The only reason it underperforms is because it requires a shield meta to truly shine. But if a shield meta DOES happen, you can bet it will be the #1 rifle used. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3012	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:50:00 - [107] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Buffing the ASCR would be a terrible decision. Taking out the efficiencies, it's an amazing rifle for many many reasons. The only reason it underperforms is because it requires a shield meta to truly shine. But if a shield meta DOES happen, you can bet it will be the #1 rifle used. I think hat really makes it bad regardless of the meta is the proficiency skill, which pushes the damage even further into shields. For armor killers this isn't a problem because once the shields are down your damage accelerates which means reaction time to these are very low, but with shield killers once the shields are going down you have a small amount of shields and the damage reduction to armor to give you ample reaction time. In my opinion the proficiency skill should be changed to 1% or 1.5% per level to reduce this effect. That or just remove that skill bonus and make it buff other aspects of the rifle, as it stands that skill just denies any form of pure tanking and contributes to hybrid brick tanks. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1476	Posted - 2014.09.05 11:03:00 - [108] - Quote Really appreciate the small RoF buff for the TAC AR!! You are the man Rattati! I am glad you are thinking about both the Scrambler Rifle and the Tac AR. That being said I have a few points.... A) - Can you increase the amount of rounds in the Tac AR clip as 18 or what ever it is is still too low. B) - A RoF of around 600 for both the Tac AR and the Scrambler sounds about right, however I feel it might be a tad on the low side. 650 would sound about right but I suppose we can test the changes and report back. C) - I do hope you do not plan to nerf the Scrambler any more as to be fair CCP it is not used that often as it is! D) - So how about the crazy levels of dispersion with the TAC AR when hipfiring..... can we reduce that a bit please? Overall quite happy with the changes but I will watch this space for sure. -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
Zindorak 1.U.P 814	Posted - 2014.09.05 11:44:00 - [109] - Quote Do you have any ideas on AScR Rattati? Also would it be possible to increase TAC AR clip size as 18 is very small Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4783	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:54:00 - [110] - Quote Buffing the ACR makes me nervous. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Grimmiers 658	Posted - 2014.09.05 13:47:00 - [111] - Quote That's it! I"m going full gallmando I finally won't be doing tickle damage within my range
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 722	Posted - 2014.09.05 13:49:00 - [112] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Combat rifle buffed ? These are WAY more instakilling than SCR but..anyway. and increased dispersion "Spread" to be honest i never felt the spread on any guns of Dust 514. So basically it's like you gave them free 4% damage. Scr already have the worst damage profile of the game (Who cares about more damage on shield ? Nobody is shield tanking in this game since 8 months or more..) because Armor HP pools are way bigger than shields Hp pool. You can't just compare DPS of Anti-armor weapons and Anti-shield weapons when Shields values and armor values are different. That's a huge non-sense. On the other hand buffing shield tanking is NOT giving ANY advantage to ScR, i don't know why you're thinking this. Shield tankers just get more ehp. Armor tankers are not going to switch tanking, so you basically just gave them more ehp if they were having some shield mods. You can't Nerf SCR for real and say it's balanced because you've buffed Shields tankers.... One nerf is REAL on SCR while you don't REALLY buff SCR somewhere else to balance. You guys still forgetting Anti-shields weapons are TOTALLY out of the Meta. And have the worst Damage profile EVER. And even if we have a Shield meta once again, Anti-armor weapons will still be king because FLUX => Shield down => Slaughter armor. That's what i was doing during the Caldari logistics OP shields periods and shields Meta.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3012	Posted - 2014.09.05 13:57:00 - [113] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Combat rifle buffed ? These are WAY more instakilling than SCR but..anyway. and increased dispersion "Spread" to be honest i never felt the spread on any guns of Dust 514. So basically it's like you gave them free 4% damage. Scr already have the worst damage profile of the game (Who cares about more damage on shield ? Nobody is shield tanking in this game since 8 months or more..) because Armor HP pools are way bigger than shields Hp pool. You can't just compare DPS of Anti-armor weapons and Anti-shield weapons when Shields values and armor values are different. That's a huge non-sense. On the other hand buffing shield tanking is NOT giving ANY advantage to ScR, i don't know why you're thinking this. Shield tankers just get more ehp. Armor tankers are not going to switch tanking, so you basically just gave them more ehp if they were having some shield mods. You can't Nerf SCR for real and say it's balanced because you've buffed Shields tankers.... One nerf is REAL on SCR while you don't REALLY buff SCR somewhere else to balance. But if you nerf hybrid tanking... supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Dj grammer New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 358	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:02:00 - [114] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I am hoping for -20/+20 because armor needs to have a damage type that brutalizes it the way scrams do shields. Explosive weapons do not qualify given that Sentinels enjoy a 25% reduction to splash damage. They will enjoy no such advantage against projectiles with the proposed profiles. Kinda like how calsent and minsent get torched by scrams. So same damage profile like EXPLOSIVES? Ok make way for my FLUX ACR COMBO THEN. I do not want to hear any complaining if this becomes more meta than it is. Throwing my $.02 out there. Darkness is a Beginning, you see, not an end.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2550	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:29:00 - [115] - Quote Dj grammer wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I am hoping for -20/+20 because armor needs to have a damage type that brutalizes it the way scrams do shields. Explosive weapons do not qualify given that Sentinels enjoy a 25% reduction to splash damage. They will enjoy no such advantage against projectiles with the proposed profiles. Kinda like how calsent and minsent get torched by scrams. So same damage profile like EXPLOSIVES? Ok make way for my FLUX ACR COMBO THEN. I do not want to hear any complaining if this becomes more meta than it is. Throwing my $.02 out there. You mean the explosives that sentinels get a 25% flat damage reduction to? Those explosives? Like the Locus grenades that are shrugged off instantly? Like the flaylock and Mass Driver that are of marginal utility because anytime someone gets a kill with one it gets decried as OP? You know, explosives, which have been nerfed to hell by popular demand because they are no-skill noob toobs? Because God forbid an AoE weapon killed one of the :gungame elite: Oh wait. The RE is still effective. Are these the explosives to which you are referring to? Does having the RE exist make your assertion magically valid?
Dj grammer New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 358	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:29:00 - [116] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Dj grammer wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I am hoping for -20/+20 because armor needs to have a damage type that brutalizes it the way scrams do shields. Explosive weapons do not qualify given that Sentinels enjoy a 25% reduction to splash damage. They will enjoy no such advantage against projectiles with the proposed profiles. Kinda like how calsent and minsent get torched by scrams. So same damage profile like EXPLOSIVES? Ok make way for my FLUX ACR COMBO THEN. I do not want to hear any complaining if this becomes more meta than it is. Throwing my $.02 out there. You mean the explosives that sentinels get a 25% flat damage reduction to? Those explosives? Like the Locus grenades that are shrugged off instantly? Like the flaylock and Mass Driver that are of marginal utility because anytime someone gets a kill with one it gets decried as OP? You know, explosives, which have been nerfed to hell by popular demand because they are no-skill noob toobs? Because God forbid an AoE weapon killed one of the :gungame elite: Oh wait. The RE is still effective. Are these the explosives to which you are referring to? Does having the RE exist make your assertion magically valid? I love how you read the first statement and jump on the first flight to "conclusions." Here's a hint bucks: I run all tank types. I can run every single weapon in the game to a greater or lesser extent. Nerf my favorite to crap and I'll switch over as soon as I re-spawn. I'm not "bitching" I'm pointing out a stupid disparity. I must had offended you from the sounds of how the last two lines in your post sounded. Plus it is opinionated and I was giving you mine. BUCKO sounds like you were pissed. Going to ignore that since there are better things to do than dispute. But if it makes you feel better I ran every class and gun in the game sitting on 43 million skill points, not that it "ACTUALLY" means anything. But my opinion was agreeing with the -20/+20 if you failed to catch it. The remote explosives, as annoying as they are, do bypass the sentinel's bonus to explosive resistance. It's like comparing a C7 Corvette to a BRZ (both stock) in a 1320m drag strip race, you know which car is going to win. But both the example and RE are off topic in this forum. I was calling out the fact that there will be an increase in FLUX usage if -20/+20 were to go through. This means that shielded tank users my hate this more but it also punish those armor tanking (due to speed penalties and majority low shields). This will change up the play styles of many when playing with said weapon or playing against said weapon. So in all honesty I wasn't jumping into "conclusions", I poorly gave information supporting said post. Darkness is a Beginning, you see, not an end.
Kin Cat Another Clone in the Wall 27	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:28:00 - [117] - Quote does this mean the AR is getting better dispersion and kick?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2555	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:50:00 - [118] - Quote Dj grammer wrote: So in all honesty I wasn't jumping into "conclusions", I poorly gave information supporting said post. Suggestion for future reference? Tis traditional when agreeing with someone to say so. THEN spitball the rant. Tends to lead to less confusion. Plus I'm too used to people whining that they don't want armor to get too scratched or lose their utility maiming caldari and minmatar for the easy WP.
Cass Caul 1122	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:59:00 - [119] - Quote Oh no! My CQC Rail builds are going down in usefulness. Combat Rifle is still OP because armor is significantly more prevalent than shields On Hiatus.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2556	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:05:00 - [120] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Oh no! My CQC Rail builds are going down in usefulness. Combat Rifle is still OP because armor is significantly more prevalent than shields But my caldari and minmatar sentinel and commando suits will be a lot more useful!

Myron Kundera The Generals 83	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:47:00 - [121] - Quote 14% extra is fine for the Breach Plasma Rifle, it really needs it to compete. Good job! "Greed, the forgotten mental disease" "Spray and pray makes my day" "Will use proto gear in self defense"
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 750	Posted - 2014.09.05 21:07:00 - [122] - Quote Tweaks to AR's and SLs in one patch? good things do indeed come ot those who wait lookign forward to testing the new breach on my gal assault. the buff it had previosuly with slight rof was nice but giving it a bit more damage will finally bring it inline vs..... well everything. as it stands my militia RR with no skills outperforms my AR's with prof 5 Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 486	Posted - 2014.09.05 21:29:00 - [123] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: [quote=Monkey MAC]Rattatai, I suggest you look at the graph labeled 'Doc 1' here. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web It shows why the AScR was and still is under performing, it also shows that really the ARR could do with an optimal range nerf. While the graph you showed us at the beginning looks nice and balanced, because you are only using the effective ranges it doesn't show the full story. While I'm not necessarily this be done in time for delta, but . . . . The AScR needs a lot more damage. Rattati! I've been using the AScR more recently (used it a fair amount before as well but put it down) and there's one glaring issue that it has that I haven't seen addressed here. It has a lot of recoil. It's the magsec of rifles. Even at mid range it jumps around so much that it's hard to apply the rifle's damage. Further out into its effective range, in ADS, the rounds are spraying all around stationary targets very inaccurately. Use it for a match the next chance you get and fire at people at different ranges. The gun kiicks like a mule on speed, hipfiring and in ADS. I honestly think it has the most recoil of any gun in the game other than the Magsec. Now that it has more heat build up it's actually not hard to overheat it when you're really trying to bring someone down. Combined with the inaccuracy due to kick, it just doesn't apply its damage fast enough to compete or to keep you from almost overheating constantly. Applying damage quickly--before overheating--and at range is the role of the Scrambler Rifle and its variants, is it not? A kick reduction would give the AScR the accuracy to do that. It doesn't work in its role right now compared to other rifles. With recoil reduction the AScR still wouldn't have much success drilling through stacked armor, but it would be able to work through shields and some armor more quickly (due to more shots finding the target) giving assaults more time to finish the job with a Magsec or SMG or commandos with the light weapon of their choice. I think if you reduce the AScR's recoil you'll find its performance will improve so much that you may not need to increase damage. Consider reducing recoil in Delta, see how much better it performs, and then give it another push if necessary in Echo by increasing damage. [I'll post this as its own thread too to make sure you see it! :) ]
Boot Booter Pure Evil. 904	Posted - 2014.09.06 06:02:00 - [124] - Quote ^ good point. Actually looking at the other assault variant rifle's dps vs range the AScR falls slightly above. On paper it looks to be the best. However it's recoil is extreme and the current meta is armor, perhaps two reasons why it is underutilized. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1741	Posted - 2014.09.06 10:03:00 - [125] - Quote No, the AScR has almost zero recoil. There is some dispersion however.
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 751	Posted - 2014.09.06 15:14:00 - [126] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: ^ good point. Actually looking at the other assault variant rifle's dps vs range the AScR falls slightly above. On paper it looks to be the best. However it's recoil is extreme and the current meta is armor, perhaps two reasons why it is underutilized. single shot has bad recoil, assault scramblers have very little compared to other rifles. quite looking forward to this delta patch. Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience
Boot Booter Pure Evil. 904	Posted - 2014.09.06 15:55:00 - [127] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: No, the AScR has almost zero recoil. There is some dispersion however. Well whatever it is, the thing jumps around like crazy while ADS. I realize it's not actually recoil cause the dot returns to the same spot after. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Kalai Snow UNIVERSAL C.A.R.N.A.G.E 0	Posted - 2014.09.06 18:17:00 - [128] - Quote Bring back the stats for the Basic AR before it got nerfed. Its a crap weapon against proto combat and rail rifles, and even worse against armor tanks. the 10/10 is fine, but it definitely needs a higher damage profile to compete on the proto level of weaponary.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 236	Posted - 2014.09.06 18:38:00 - [129] - Quote Kalai Snow wrote: Bring back the stats for the Basic AR before it got nerfed. Its a crap weapon against proto combat and rail rifles, and even worse against armor tanks. the 10/10 is fine, but it definitely needs a higher damage profile to compete on the proto level of weaponary. Its actually pretty much at the same level it was before the rifle nerf. It just shoots faster, instead of doing more damage per shot.
Kin Cat Another Clone in the Wall 41	Posted - 2014.09.06 19:10:00 - [130] - Quote rattati why am i hearing nothing about fixing Gallente Assault's bonus? or Caldari? CCP Rattati wrote: I agree, but not for Delta, it's very crowded as is, we want to get rifle range and dps right first, and I think we are going to get there in Delta, and then find the right assault bonuses for those two to enhance their racial weapons in a good, but not OP way. Echo perhaps?

Tectonic Fusion 2161	Posted - 2014.09.06 21:12:00 - [131] - Quote ConantheCimmerian wrote: Super Sniper95 wrote: Hmmm it's ok :) Oh by the way, do not nerf Sniper Rifle range please :) If they have 500 + m range. Then my 7,000 m/s FG should be 1k + or at least = to the range of a sniper. For fucks sake. Its a small-arm For fucks sake, it's a sniper rifle. (GIF)
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1148	Posted - 2014.09.06 23:34:00 - [132] - Quote I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but rail rifles are still a bit powerful IMO specifically the milita and standard ones. Combat Rifles don't really need a damage increase but they do lack damage past there 75 m range. the dispersion being increased is fine as well and maybe a range buff than a damage buff. be careful of what you do with the plasma rifle. the breach is effective in most situations and buffing damage too much may make it OP. the tacPR could use a ROF buff though. the ScR could use a damage reduction to armor as it is highly effective against armor. I don't know what to say about ScR RoF as I would have to consider how this would impact it's potential to kill an opponent now vs. delta. I'm assuming rail rifles are being untouched as usual but something just makes me dislike it so much SP earned perday/week
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 401	Posted - 2014.09.07 01:24:00 - [133] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but rail rifles are still a bit powerful IMO specifically the milita and standard ones. Combat Rifles don't really need a damage increase but they do lack damage past there 75 m range. the dispersion being increased is fine as well and maybe a range buff than a damage buff. be careful of what you do with the plasma rifle. the breach is effective in most situations and buffing damage too much may make it OP. the tacPR could use a ROF buff though. the ScR could use a damage reduction to armor as it is highly effective against armor. I don't know what to say about ScR RoF as I would have to consider how this would impact it's potential to kill an opponent now vs. delta. I'm assuming rail rifles are being untouched as usual but something just makes me dislike it so much RRs are also too good at CQC. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 494	Posted - 2014.09.07 09:05:00 - [134] - Quote Rattati please give the burst AR an iron sight. It's range isn't enough to merit a scope. The scope is just disorienting and makes it hard to ADS in it's effective, not to mention severely limits visibility.
The Eristic Dust 90210 644	Posted - 2014.09.07 09:50:00 - [135] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Rattati please give the burst AR an iron sight. It's range isn't enough to merit a scope. The scope is just disorienting and makes it hard to ADS in it's effective, not to mention severely limits visibility. +1. The AR scope is xbox hueg. It's obnoxious on the TAC, which has too little range for the zoom level and amount of screen occupied by the scope, and it's outright unnecessary on the Burst. While we're talking rifles, can we get Op II Burst and Tac AR, too, as well as Op II Assault variants for the others? The SP and ISK investments required probably play some part in how underused they are. Get them into people's hands more easily and you'll get more, more varied and potentially more useful data, as most of the playerbase runs lower meta stuff, usually out of necessity. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
JUDASisMYhomeboy xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 114	Posted - 2014.09.07 13:13:00 - [136] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: No, the AScR has almost zero recoil. There is some dispersion however. Well whatever it is, the thing jumps around like crazy while ADS. I realize it's not actually recoil cause the dot returns to the same spot after. Most dont notice it because they just hipfire.
Kin Cat Another Clone in the Wall 53	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:00:00 - [137] - Quote if CCP Rattati can't answer my questions because he is understandably busy is there another dev who could
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2660	Posted - 2014.09.08 15:37:00 - [138] - Quote Comparing how a sniper rifle should perform to the forge gun is like reaching for the gold in the idiot olympics. They are two entirely different weapons that do entirely different things. Sniper rifles should not drop under forge gun range. 320 min range. No more than 400.
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1372	Posted - 2014.09.08 16:25:00 - [139] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: The number may be a little high for the breach, though I'm curious if it will make it worth using. No changes on the assault plasma rifle? It may be the best of the bunch, but the thing is outperformed by most weapons even in its very limited intended range. I mean, it really is the only rifle to struggle vs the HMG in CQC and in short to mid range combat. It's also getting a tweak to dispersion, and we intend to make Assault bonuses for Gallente better in the future don't forget about dem caldari dudes if we are talking about crapy assault bonuses. KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1216	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:00:00 - [140] - Quote CUSE TOWN333 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: The number may be a little high for the breach, though I'm curious if it will make it worth using. No changes on the assault plasma rifle? It may be the best of the bunch, but the thing is outperformed by most weapons even in its very limited intended range. I mean, it really is the only rifle to struggle vs the HMG in CQC and in short to mid range combat. It's also getting a tweak to dispersion, and we intend to make Assault bonuses for Gallente better in the future don't forget about dem caldari dudes if we are talking about crapy assault bonuses. Tears.. tears.. and more tears I think I may need a bucket I spec'd Caldari Assault L5 -Bolt Pistol L5 -Rail Rifle L5 and prof. on both weapons... For no reason other than the reload bonus, which benefits 'suppresion' as I have a second clip ready fast.. Yet everyone else hates it -_-? LOL CCP can I have a respec when you change this most spec into the FoTm then ask for respec, this is opposite I spec'd into a role for 'fun' the suppresion combat in Ck.0 is one of my favorite play-styles even though I had not put points into Rail Rifle prior to maxing Ck.0 and Bolt Pistols for Shitz N Gigglez and challenging combat. Yet 'Fun' is lost on most Dust mercs, unless of course that fun is stomping Bluebs on a daily basis.. They will all smile and vote for EZ mode (never happened before) lol just look at the BreachAR replies here.. And wait til you see the spike in Breach AR usage after Delta Innapropriate Irrelevence... Welcome to the Dust Forum, hang around to see why everyone else left :/

Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:56:00 - [141] - Quote I have to wonder just how effective dispersion is when coupled with the strong aim assist from hip fire. Rifle kick also seems to have very little effect when shooting from hipfire, with aim-assist.
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1373	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:05:00 - [142] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: CUSE TOWN333 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: The number may be a little high for the breach, though I'm curious if it will make it worth using. No changes on the assault plasma rifle? It may be the best of the bunch, but the thing is outperformed by most weapons even in its very limited intended range. I mean, it really is the only rifle to struggle vs the HMG in CQC and in short to mid range combat. It's also getting a tweak to dispersion, and we intend to make Assault bonuses for Gallente better in the future don't forget about dem caldari dudes if we are talking about crapy assault bonuses. Tears.. tears.. and more tears I think I may need a bucket I spec'd Caldari Assault L5 -Bolt Pistol L5 -Rail Rifle L5 and prof. on both weapons... For no reason other than the reload bonus, which benefits 'suppresion' as I have a second clip ready fast.. Yet everyone else hates it -_-? LOL CCP can I have a respec when you change this most spec into the FoTm then ask for respec, this is opposite I spec'd into a role for 'fun' the suppresion combat in Ck.0 is one of my favorite play-styles even though I had not put points into Rail Rifle prior to maxing Ck.0 and Bolt Pistols for Shitz N Gigglez and challenging combat. Yet 'Fun' is lost on most Dust mercs, unless of course that fun is stomping Bluebs on a daily basis.. They will all smile and vote for EZ mode (never happened before) lol just look at the BreachAR replies here.. And wait til you see the spike in Breach AR usage after Delta Suppress nothing i want to kill Sh*t. KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12069	Posted - 2014.09.09 10:43:00 - [143] - Quote AScR recoil is 100% visual side to side recoil. It's actually dead accurate if you can train yourself to ignore the visual recoil. In fact you can fire your entire clip and the center of aiming won't move anywhere. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12069	Posted - 2014.09.09 10:46:00 - [144] - Quote It's probably not hotfixable, but I'm going to ask just incase Rattati has some magic under his sleeve like with the sniper crosshair. Can you change ALL the Plasma Rifle's sights to red dots? Like the AScR? None of them warrant high zoom scopes, but none of them warrant Iron sights either. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3043	Posted - 2014.09.09 10:48:00 - [145] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: It's probably not hotfixable, but I'm going to ask just incase Rattati has some magic under his sleeve like with the sniper crosshair. Can you change ALL the Plasma Rifle's sights to red dots? Like the AScR? None of them warrant high zoom scopes, but none of them warrant Iron sights either. Oh god please don't give us that space saucer looking scope from the old days. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Jathniel G I A N T 1161	Posted - 2014.09.09 11:11:00 - [146] - Quote Nice work buffing the Gal rifles. The ACRs didn't need a buff, but whatever, I don't care either way. Can we get some Range performance data added to the Item info menu please? I'd like to hit triangle and see both Max Optimal and Max Effective ranges in specs. Would also like to see the weapon efficiency percentage red-shift when a target is out of my max optimal range. Thanks. Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
Chief-Shotty WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 196	Posted - 2014.09.09 17:41:00 - [147] - Quote I think the only combat rifle being buffed is the Assault Combat Rifle and true it does very little damage, perhaps this is to compensate for the damage profile of projectiles (Dear CCP don't go to crazy i need that CR dangit) RR is too OP i think the hip fire needs to be worse only the assault should have decent hip fire and then, just barely as it still out ranges other rifles with ease. Slight dmg or even RoF nerf. I find it funny that i would kinda actually prefer the scope zoom of the Combat Rifles and Assault Rifles were switched. The Burst assault rifle does not have the range but still needs the precision so a scope is necessary but not the zoom. This would make it easier to see targets at short range and have the precision to hit them with the aid of the sight. To be honest the gallente scope is overall too bulky for a short range rifle..too much screen clutter. The combat rifle on the other hand does have some range and the hip fire performance is actually decent so it could utilize the zoom more effectively while not completely shredding its cqc ability. Also. this would stress the base combat rifle as the mid range CR while the assault version without the scope would be stressed to be the shorter range focus CR. I don't think that should be hard, just change the zoom rate when in ADS and bingo. Nice ninja fix CCP! 8-Time New Eden Mass Driver Champion Min Commando Combat Rifle and Mass Driver = FUN and Tears OMG the Tears!! :)
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD 323	Posted - 2014.09.09 18:01:00 - [148] - Quote Just glad to see the rifle gap closing in the form of dps and dispersion. Shouldn't be an insta-gank every time I'm using a AR variant and the enemy has a ScR?! Just even them out and let the chips fall where they may on the battlefield. This will mean proper application, situational awareness, team play, and tactics will win on the ground instead of advantaged weapons. "Anybody order chaos?"
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD 323	Posted - 2014.09.09 18:05:00 - [149] - Quote Touch that RR ccp. It's not exempt! Dmg or range, but not both! It hits too hard, too far, at full auto and with little to no trace?! It's hip fire is simply too effective in cqc. "Anybody order chaos?"
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12084	Posted - 2014.09.10 12:02:00 - [150] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Cat Merc wrote: It's probably not hotfixable, but I'm going to ask just incase Rattati has some magic under his sleeve like with the sniper crosshair. Can you change ALL the Plasma Rifle's sights to red dots? Like the AScR? None of them warrant high zoom scopes, but none of them warrant Iron sights either. Oh god please don't give us that space saucer looking scope from the old days. Rather that than an Iron Sight that blocks targets at 40m+. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC

manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 121	Posted - 2014.09.10 16:01:00 - [151] - Quote ASCR - 20/10 please for the dmg profile. IT NEEDS TO BE LOOKED IT! i can't believe the ACR scrubs are getting their way by looking at paper stats and not how it's the most underused gun in dust NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Boot Booter Pure Evil. 916	Posted - 2014.09.10 17:01:00 - [152] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: ASCR - 20/10 please for the dmg profile. IT NEEDS TO BE LOOKED IT! i can't believe the ACR scrubs are getting their way by looking at paper stats and not how it's the most underused gun in dust No. That's not a good idea. What? Are you using conflicting arguments in the same sentence? What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.09.11 05:38:00 - [153] - Quote delete
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2712	Posted - 2014.09.11 06:08:00 - [154] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: ASCR - 20/10 please for the dmg profile. IT NEEDS TO BE LOOKED IT! i can't believe the ACR scrubs are getting their way by looking at paper stats and not how it's the most underused gun in dust What the hell are you trying to say here? There is no context provided to make this make sense. I don't speak incoherent rant. I only speak two languages: English and Bad English. PICK ONE!
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1804	Posted - 2014.09.11 09:32:00 - [155] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: AScR recoil is 100% visual side to side recoil. It's actually dead accurate if you can train yourself to ignore the visual recoil. In fact you can fire your entire clip and the center of aiming won't move anywhere. Interesting, will test it. If true might partially explain why some can slay with it but I'm useless with it. Other part of explanation is that I'm a massive scrub :(
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1804	Posted - 2014.09.11 09:51:00 - [156] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread Charlie - DPS vs Effective Range [img]http://i.imgur.com/lBiBE2q.png[/img] vs Delta - DPS vs Effective Range [img]http://i.imgur.com/GbLkMy9.png[/img] The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. Don't disagree with BrAR and BuAR changes. Why increase dispersion on ACR? It's hardly a long range weapon as things stand, you're only tickling people beyond about 45m. The change will make RRs dominate mid range engagements as well as long range ones, which is hardly balanced. 600 RPM is still too high. Only turbos can consistently achieve that RoF, and may gravitate towards TAR since they won't even need to worry about overheat then. 500 for both ScR and TAR would be better. Maybe a slight damage increase for TAR as well to account for its shorter range.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6926	Posted - 2014.09.11 15:47:00 - [157] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. Don't disagree with BrAR and BuAR changes. Why increase dispersion on ACR? It's hardly a long range weapon as things stand, you're only tickling people beyond about 45m. The change will make RRs dominate mid range engagements as well as long range ones, which is hardly balanced. 600 RPM is still too high. Only turbos can consistently achieve that RoF, and may gravitate towards TAR since they won't even need to worry about overheat then. 500 for both ScR and TAR would be better. Maybe a slight damage increase for TAR as well to account for its shorter range. The ACR is pretty damn accurate, there is no kick and a lethal ROF, basically a PP-2000 or F2000. I am not a good player and I can reliably pump headshots from quite a distance. I actually feel cheap using it. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 49	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:04:00 - [158] - Quote hate to say it but i can pretty reliably do 9-10 rounds per second :P so 600 i probably won't hit, but it will be close
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 501	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:07:00 - [159] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Why increase dispersion on ACR? It's hardly a long range weapon as things stand, you're only tickling people beyond about 45m. The change will make RRs dominate mid range engagements as well as long range ones, which is hardly balanced. True, this will give the ACR range just a tad beyond the AR. Then, other than the rail rifles, there's only the ScR, the AScR, CR, and TAR for mid-range engagements. I guess the TAR will compete with RR. If they make the AScR more accurate at range then it could be in the mix.
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 501	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:17:00 - [160] - Quote Rattati, I argued a few days back for reducing the AScR's recoil in Delta, since you're holding off on damage, but after playing with it a while I realize that dispersion is its main problem. It has a weird mix of extreme dispersion--with no sharpshooter skill--and good range. It becomes very inaccurate a lot closer in than 8800 meters due to that dispersion. Why not reduce dispersion? If you can't buff its damage right now, how about just enabling it to apply it a bit more accurately, especially at range?

Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1810	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:54:00 - [161] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. Don't disagree with BrAR and BuAR changes. Why increase dispersion on ACR? It's hardly a long range weapon as things stand, you're only tickling people beyond about 45m. The change will make RRs dominate mid range engagements as well as long range ones, which is hardly balanced. 600 RPM is still too high. Only turbos can consistently achieve that RoF, and may gravitate towards TAR since they won't even need to worry about overheat then. 500 for both ScR and TAR would be better. Maybe a slight damage increase for TAR as well to account for its shorter range. The ACR is pretty damn accurate, there is no kick and a lethal ROF, basically a PP-2000 or F2000. I am not a good player and I can reliably pump headshots from quite a distance. I actually feel cheap using it. The ACR is accurate but so are other weapons like the regular CR and ScR, which also have more range and DPS. I would have thought the profile change (if that's still happening) would be enough of a nerf on the ACR if one really is necessary.
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2014.09.11 20:22:00 - [162] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. Don't disagree with BrAR and BuAR changes. Why increase dispersion on ACR? It's hardly a long range weapon as things stand, you're only tickling people beyond about 45m. The change will make RRs dominate mid range engagements as well as long range ones, which is hardly balanced. 600 RPM is still too high. Only turbos can consistently achieve that RoF, and may gravitate towards TAR since they won't even need to worry about overheat then. 500 for both ScR and TAR would be better. Maybe a slight damage increase for TAR as well to account for its shorter range. The ACR is pretty damn accurate, there is no kick and a lethal ROF, basically a PP-2000 or F2000. I am not a good player and I can reliably pump headshots from quite a distance. I actually feel cheap using it. Is this against moving targets or targets standing still? Aim assist is a big part of getting the headshots with this weapon from hip fire, at long range. trying to do the same with aim-down-sights is significantly harder. I can't help but feel hip fire should be LESS accurate not moreso. Aim assist seems to directly counter small position discrepancies too (moments where people see the blue sparks of a direct hit, but no damage is registered).
Chief-Shotty WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 202	Posted - 2014.09.11 23:04:00 - [163] - Quote Funny i actually see the dispersion increase of the ACR to be more of a buff than a nerf. I have had trouble hitting scouts with it lately and this should make it easier to keep them within hip fire constraints. Getting head-shots with these guns aren't all that hard, some guns kick just right that they actually hep you hit the head. I've done that with the AR, CR, and ARR alike. Other guns with large kick will bypass the head and start hitting dropships if your not careful. The ACR could use a bit more kick though. It seems laser accurate for a gun shooting 1200rpm. Standard CR is fine though. Although i think if it got a bit more kick then people will really start getting head shots even if they are aiming center mass. It walks up the torso very nicely with the fire rate. 8-Time New Eden Mass Driver Champion Min Commando Combat Rifle and Mass Driver = FUN and Tears OMG the Tears!! :)
Joel II X Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 3373	Posted - 2014.09.12 01:17:00 - [164] - Quote Not feeling it. Only thing I feel is that the Gallente Assault Rifle is getting left behind again. Also, when is the weapon going to be renamed the Plasma Rifle?
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3069	Posted - 2014.09.12 01:27:00 - [165] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Not feeling it. Only thing I feel is that the Gallente Assault Rifle is getting left behind again. Also, when is the weapon going to be renamed the Plasma Rifle? I gave up on the AR not being good at what it's meant to do. Much easier to go with the flow and use a RR supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2733	Posted - 2014.09.12 07:04:00 - [166] - Quote I use the AR only on maps like the orbital artillery and gallente lab maps. It does phenomenally well tgere but chokes on more open maps. Its kinda like how the PLC seems more CQC AV.
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 503	Posted - 2014.09.12 08:43:00 - [167] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Joel II X wrote: Not feeling it. Only thing I feel is that the Gallente Assault Rifle is getting left behind again. Also, when is the weapon going to be renamed the Plasma Rifle? I gave up on the AR not being good at what it's meant to do. Much easier to go with the flow and use a RR yup
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1811	Posted - 2014.09.12 14:38:00 - [168] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. Don't disagree with BrAR and BuAR changes. Why increase dispersion on ACR? It's hardly a long range weapon as things stand, you're only tickling people beyond about 45m. The change will make RRs dominate mid range engagements as well as long range ones, which is hardly balanced. 600 RPM is still too high. Only turbos can consistently achieve that RoF, and may gravitate towards TAR since they won't even need to worry about overheat then. 500 for both ScR and TAR would be better. Maybe a slight damage increase for TAR as well to account for its shorter range. The ACR is pretty damn accurate, there is no kick and a lethal ROF, basically a PP-2000 or F2000. I am not a good player and I can reliably pump headshots from quite a distance. I actually feel cheap using it. Is this against moving targets or targets standing still? Aim assist is a big part of getting the headshots with this weapon from hip fire, at long range. trying to do the same with aim-down-sights is significantly harder. I can't help but feel hip fire should be LESS accurate not moreso. Aim assist seems to directly counter small position discrepancies too (moments where people see the blue sparks of a direct hit, but no damage is registered). You really should not be hipfiring with the acr beyond 20 metres or so, youll get much better dps adsing.
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2014.09.12 18:03:00 - [169] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: [...] You really should not be hipfiring with the acr beyond 20 metres or so, youll get much better dps adsing. I think it ought to be that way, too, but it seems the way aim assist guides hip fire more leniently than it does for ADS that hipfire is often more accurate (generalization). Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1813	Posted - 2014.09.13 09:57:00 - [170] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: [...] You really should not be hipfiring with the acr beyond 20 metres or so, youll get much better dps adsing. I think it ought to be that way, too, but it seems the way aim assist guides hip fire more leniently than it does for ADS that hipfire is often more accurate (generalization). Please correct me if I am mistaken. ADSing with the acr puts concentrated damage on the exact spot youre aiming at. It is a high precision weapon, it does not disperse so if you miss by 1cm you get zero damage. By contrast, with hipfire, the acr handles more like an AR, it does spray which means some shots miss even if youre tracking the target. But if youre a bit off target, you still do some damage. So for people who are used to the weapon and trust their aim ADS is the way to go at midrange. However, it can feel strange ADSing if youre used to the AR as the ACR is so unforgiving when you miss (and it empties the clip VERY quickly so you dont get a second chance like you do with the AR). Lots of people give up on it because of that, i almost did. Would be sad if it was made so it ADSed the same as the AR. Whats the point of having different weapons if they handle the same? Im all in favour of AR buffs but dont break the ACR in the process, that will just make the RR and ScR even more dominant.

Haerr Legio DXIV 1367	Posted - 2014.09.13 10:19:00 - [171] - Quote Oh buff to the tactical AR? Neat! :)
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3072	Posted - 2014.09.13 11:20:00 - [172] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: [...] You really should not be hipfiring with the acr beyond 20 metres or so, youll get much better dps adsing. I think it ought to be that way, too, but it seems the way aim assist guides hip fire more leniently than it does for ADS that hipfire is often more accurate (generalization). Please correct me if I am mistaken. ADSing with the acr puts concentrated damage on the exact spot youre aiming at. It is a high precision weapon, it does not disperse and aim assist is either weak or non-existent so if you miss by 1cm you get zero damage. By contrast, with hipfire, the acr handles more like an AR, it does spray which means some shots miss even if youre tracking the target. But if youre a bit off target, you still do some damage. So for people who are used to the weapon and trust their aim ADS is the way to go at midrange. However, it can feel strange ADSing if youre used to the AR as the ACR is so unforgiving when you miss (and it empties the clip VERY quickly so you dont get a second chance like you do with the AR). Lots of people give up on it because of that, i almost did. Would be sad if it was made so it ADSed the same as the AR. Whats the point of having different weapons if they handle the same? Im all in favour of AR buffs but dont break the ACR in the process, that will just make the RR and ScR even more dominant. one thing to note is that it barely has dispersion when hipfired and it's dispersion and kick is lower than that of an AR on a Gal assault, actually if I remember correctly most weapons have about the same or lower than the AR. Coupled with their longer range and slightly lower dps all of these weapons will destroy an ar long range, and easily compete with it short range. There needs to be a tiered dispersion increase as range continues to increase, while also adding more kick in hipfire and lower kick in ads. The idea is to push weapons slightly outside of the cqc zone. The ACR (and the ARR, and aSCR) should be decent in cqc but not be better than the the AR, for example the RR is horrible in cqc but with some skill you can make it work. Either than or reduce the range of the ACR to 40 and then we can make then equal. But again as of right now every weapon is just too good at cqc while the AR, it's variants, and the ion pistol just get shafted. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2766	Posted - 2014.09.13 11:38:00 - [173] - Quote Said it before will say it again. AR has the best on-paper DPS but it falls apart because the other rifles are much better at applying their DPS. You lose too much of the DPS by missing the targets, especially strafers because each round does piddling damage. By comparison RR/CR/SR hit harder per round/burst so the application is more notable. It's weird. The only way the AR seems to perform acceptably is when the target is standing still, running right at you, or running directly away. The other rifles are superior for dealing with any lateral movement. I also have aim assist turned off so YMMV.
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y Dark Taboo 210	Posted - 2014.09.13 13:26:00 - [174] - Quote Okay, one of the few changes that I agree with. G.L.O.R.Y solider, Master of the Heavy (Amarr & Gallente)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7015	Posted - 2014.09.13 16:22:00 - [175] - Quote Time's up, thanks everyone, this was one of the better threads we have had, so special thanks even. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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