DUST Search - Sticky:Hotfix Delta

CCP Rattati wrote:

Hello again,

so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation.

I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks.

The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread

Charlie - DPS vs Effective Range
[img]http://i.imgur.com/lBiBE2q.png[/img]

vs

Delta - DPS vs Effective Range
[img]http://i.imgur.com/GbLkMy9.png[/img]

The Delta tweaks are as follows

14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles
2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles
4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy)
By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely

Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2998	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:01:00 - [31] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Is it possible to jump standard assault rifle range up by a few meters? Their optimal competes directly with HMG's, leaving them in a slightly undesireable position, as you either want a HMG for its short range damage or any other weapon for their range. Or bump up the dps I don't think CCP wants to touch the range ever again.. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 765	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:04:00 - [32] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, so we have done a range pass and a dps pass on rifles before, and now that we have collected a lot of data, it's time to finetune a little our Range vs DPS correlation. I am going to share two pictures, one with the situation as it is (just for protoype for simplification) and one after Delta tweaks. The handling of weapons, kick and dispersion, in and out of zoom, is being discussed in this thread and I think we have closure on most of those tweaks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174412&find=unread Charlie - DPS vs Effective Range [img]http://i.imgur.com/lBiBE2q.png[/img] vs Delta - DPS vs Effective Range [img]http://i.imgur.com/GbLkMy9.png[/img] The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. looks fine but what about the Burst and slow ROF rifles? the burst are almost never used.. and the SLOW rof but damage versions are most never used because of lack of damage per shot to compensate low amount of shots down field to pick up on aim assist [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah
Coleman Gray Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1180	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:28:00 - [33] - Quote Anything to be done about Scr and RR's "efficiency problem"? If Preparation is half of the battle and knowing is the other half, Then there is no need to fight.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6609	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:33:00 - [34] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: Anything to be done about Scr and RR's "efficiency problem"? They are the benchmark for the other rifles. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 161	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:40:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Coleman Gray wrote: Anything to be done about Scr and RR's "efficiency problem"? They are the benchmark for the other rifles. lol no thats not what he means. Damage Profiles being reflected in the efficiency section of target info isn't documented in game, so generally when people post saying theres an efficiency problem they're actually telling you that the game is so inadequately documented that despite posting on forums where damage profiles are brought up hourly, they still havent figured out that the efficiency tooltip includes the profile adjustment. Its an eve carry over deal where a ccp project isnt documented well but doesnt have the kind of player base doing the documentation for them.
Macchi00 LORD-BRITISH 100	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:49:00 - [36] - Quote I uploaded the video that I was using a bleach assault rifle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SytAYcdVF7E Bleach assault rifle strong enough already. At the same, DPS of Bleach assault rifle and normal assault rifle is the same? Everyone will use the bleach assault rifle if it. I love ForgeGun. I made ForgeGun montage in YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIhuGxfbjSQ

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6615	Posted - 2014.09.04 11:59:00 - [37] - Quote Macchi00 wrote: I uploaded the video that I was using a bleach assault rifle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SytAYcdVF7E Bleach assault rifle strong enough already. At the same, DPS of Bleach assault rifle and normal assault rifle is the same? Everyone will use the bleach assault rifle if it. Watched it, great skill but not stunning evidence of a risk of the breach becoming OP. In many cases I thought you would have done better with a ACR or a Scrambler "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Macchi00 LORD-BRITISH 100	Posted - 2014.09.04 12:10:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Macchi00 wrote: I uploaded the video that I was using a bleach assault rifle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SytAYcdVF7E Bleach assault rifle strong enough already. At the same, DPS of Bleach assault rifle and normal assault rifle is the same? Everyone will use the bleach assault rifle if it. Watched it, great skill but not stunning evidence of a risk of the breach becoming OP. In many cases I thought you would have done better with a ACR or a Scrambler Sure, I would have been better results if SCR and ACR. I must admit Bleach assault rifle is of inferior to them. However, DPS is low recoil is small Bleach assault rifle. DPS is high recoil because there are many normal assault rifle. Is it useless with this? I love ForgeGun. I made ForgeGun montage in YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIhuGxfbjSQ
iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 269	Posted - 2014.09.04 12:44:00 - [39] - Quote 600 rof on scr seems reasonable but as i said in other thread if you break my gun i will be severly upset that will most likely include a rant thread ;). However by some of the players above asking too nerf it more, before even seeing how the rof nerf balances it shows that most of the hate generated towards the scr is biased.....just saying. "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3494	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:00:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) This is the only part I'm concerned about. I'm sure you have good reason for it, but I don't know. It makes me feel uneasy. Perhaps the dispersion and changed damage profile will be enough to balance it out. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community

JUDASisMYhomeboy xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 106	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:07:00 - [41] - Quote We need a hipfire nerf fo EVERY RIFLE. All of them. Almost nobody aims down sight anymore. Oh..and that breach buff is too much. Geez I suggested that not only should weapons I use be nerfed I also dont want a buff...am I a lunatic?
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3451	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:21:00 - [42] - Quote Rattatai, I suggest you look at the graph labeled 'Doc 1' here. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web It shows why the AScR was and still is under performing, it also shows that really the ARR could do with an optimal range nerf. While the graph you showed us at the beginning looks nice and balanced, because you are only using the effective ranges it doesn't show the full story. While I'm not necessarily this be done in time for delta, but . . . . The ACR still needs more damage. The AScR needs a lot more damage. The ARR needs a little more damage and a little less range. The Burst Rifles are to hard to judge with only 2 variants, but slope looks to steep to me. The Bursts effectively trade more damage for range than any other set of rifles. Breaches now seem pretty good to me. Tacticals are not included in this graph. Yellow is Breach Green is Assault Purple/Orange is Burst They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Travis Stanush Haus of Triage 183	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:30:00 - [43] - Quote Macchi00 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Grand Master Kubo wrote: I'm not too sure about that level of increase to Gallente Breach Assault Rifles. From personal experience, the breach assault rifle is very good already. Be careful with how much buff you give it. It will have the same DPS as the Gallente AR, after the changes. I am not too concerned, plus, very low K/S and very low usage. Buff is necessary to bleach assault rifle. However, bleach assault rifle is not bad even while the current. I think buff of 14% is too much. 5n+P8% is reasonable. No I need the extra power to clean my merc quarters Serious note: I think that this should be fine at 14% it will bring it closer in line with the RR. No I will not show you where they touched me!!!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6619	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:53:00 - [44] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Rattatai, I suggest you look at the graph labeled 'Doc 1' here. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web It shows why the AScR was and still is under performing, it also shows that really the ARR could do with an optimal range nerf. While the graph you showed us at the beginning looks nice and balanced, because you are only using the effective ranges it doesn't show the full story. While I'm not necessarily this be done in time for delta, but . . . . The ACR still needs more damage. The AScR needs a lot more damage. The ARR needs a little more damage and a little less range. The Burst Rifles are to hard to judge with only 2 variants, but slope looks to steep to me. The Bursts effectively trade more damage for range than any other set of rifles. Breaches now seem pretty good to me. Tacticals are not included in this graph. Yellow is Breach Green is Assault Purple/Orange is Burst they all have very similar slopes, that you can read from the formula, more or less y=-0.02x, thanks for the input and spreadsheet "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mauren NOON The Exemplars 437	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:56:00 - [45] - Quote Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6619	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:58:00 - [46] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mauren NOON The Exemplars 437	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:02:00 - [47] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? Well yes I read the whole thing but a slight increase in dispersion won't mean anything because it doesn't have any right now. It needs a little kick too if you ask me Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 3978	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:05:00 - [48] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Rattatai, I suggest you look at the graph labeled 'Doc 1' here. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web It shows why the AScR was and still is under performing, it also shows that really the ARR could do with an optimal range nerf. While the graph you showed us at the beginning looks nice and balanced, because you are only using the effective ranges it doesn't show the full story. While I'm not necessarily this be done in time for delta, but . . . . The ACR still needs more damage. The AScR needs a lot more damage. The ARR needs a little more damage and a little less range. The Burst Rifles are to hard to judge with only 2 variants, but slope looks to steep to me. The Bursts effectively trade more damage for range than any other set of rifles. Breaches now seem pretty good to me. Tacticals are not included in this graph. Yellow is Breach Green is Assault Purple/Orange is Burst I think the problem with the AScR is the RoF, maybe buff that slightly and the dmg. The RoF can't compensate for it's low dmg profile vs armour unlike the normal ScR with its high dmg and RoF. The ARR dmg is pretty damn high, I honestly don't think it needs a change except to make it less useful at CQC and really make I it a mid range fighter. Maybe reduce the kick on it slightly and or give the Caldari assault a bonus to rail tech kick. I'm going to have to completely disagree with buff the ACR, those things already melt through armour and shields alike. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 270	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:05:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? i see you have to type "look at my op" every thread why do you bother? they will eventually see it and it has to be f'n annoying "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
Mauren NOON The Exemplars 437	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:08:00 - [50] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? i see you have to type "look at my op" every thread why do you bother? they will eventually see it and it has to be f'n annoying Yep didnt read the post first...you apparently didn't read mine Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!

iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 271	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:09:00 - [51] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? i see you have to type "look at my op" every thread why do you bother? they will eventually see it and it has to be f'n annoying Yep didnt read the post first...you apparently didn't read mine no we posted at relatively same time, look at time posted derpty derp durp "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
UNST0PPABLE F0RCE Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:09:00 - [52] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? Well yes I read the whole thing but a slight increase in dispersion won't mean anything because it doesn't have any right now. It needs a little kick too if you ask me OH NO! A whole 4% the world is going to end!
Mauren NOON The Exemplars 437	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:12:00 - [53] - Quote UNST0PPABLE F0RCE wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? Well yes I read the whole thing but a slight increase in dispersion won't mean anything because it doesn't have any right now. It needs a little kick too if you ask me OH NO! A whole 4% the world is going to end! I know right. The strongest racial rifle gets stronger. The definition of "Balance" right? Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!
iliel 154	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:51:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The Delta tweaks are as follows 14% dmg increase of Gallente Breach Assault Rifles 2% dmg increase of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles 4% dmg increase of Assault Combat Rifles (but also increasing dispersion to counter long range accuracy) By setting the Tac AR and Scrambler Rifle at 600 ROF, those two line up rather nicely Comments welcome, these should not be contentious changes at all given the relative UP of Gallente Rifles. I'm glad that you are being reasonable to the ACR and not listening to complainers. Hopefully, this leaves it and the Breach on somewhat equal footing. Could you elaborate what exactly long range is. I'm assuming 60+ meters?
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 485	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:18:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: The number may be a little high for the breach, though I'm curious if it will make it worth using. No changes on the assault plasma rifle? It may be the best of the bunch, but the thing is outperformed by most weapons even in its very limited intended range. I mean, it really is the only rifle to struggle vs the HMG in CQC and in short to mid range combat. It's also getting a tweak to dispersion, and we intend to make Assault bonuses for Gallente better in the future A clue!!
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3255	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:26:00 - [56] - Quote Rattai, You see where the Rail Rifle is places on your Delta chart vs. the Assault Rail Rifle? You should consider in Delta or Echo, making the Breach Plasma Rifle about the same in relation to the Assault Plasma Rifle. Otherwise, even after the buff, the APR is still far superior to the BPR. Higher RoF pretty much always wins at similar range and dps. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
voidfaction Nos Nothi 508	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:30:00 - [57] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Dmg buff for assault CR was NOT needed. Let the ACR scrubs rejoice..... Did you read the whole thing? Is the projectile dmg profile still changing to -15/+15 or something? If so you should add that to the point on the CR buff as it's not really a buff if they will be losing 10% dmg vs shield.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 226	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:31:00 - [58] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: i love how much love my breach AR is getting.... my creo breach already serves me well. but its going to be even better at doing so Creo was always my favourite AR, looks like i may have to revisit it. Minmatar logi <3 Moonlighting as an Amarr logi occasionally Minmatar Nova Knife scout in training
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1483	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:13:00 - [59] - Quote So.. We're doing literally nothing to the AScR, the really underperforming one.. At least I'll be the only one to use it I guess.. If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 717	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:24:00 - [60] - Quote Just a few questions so I can understand the chart better: - What is the point of the Breach AR? It has the same DPS and range as the normal AR. Wouldn't the Breach - as an imitation of the RR - have longer range at lower DPS? - Shouldn't the RR have a different DPS/Range slope than the Assault variants? The RR has more range and thus gets less DPS. On top of that it has a charge-up time so it'll have to catch up somehow. (Unless we assume that ranges over 90 meters 'cost extra' DPS.) Extra philosophical question: Shouldn't the Range/DPS chart put rifles on a hyperbola? Examples that support the hypothesis: 0 meter range should yield infinite DPS and infinite range should yield zero DPS Right now zero range means 594 DPS and ranges over 300 meters mean you heal your target )



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