DUST Search - Name ONE promise CCP broke

Dr Dammit wrote:

bigolenuts wrote:

Dr Dammit wrote:

Mojo XXXIII wrote:

Instead of mocking us, maybe you PC guys should be THANKING us.

After all, if it weren't for our support and feedback over the past two years, there probably wouldn't even be an Eve: Legion coming to the PC for you guys to play at all.

Or maybe you should thank the Eve PC players for funding Dust in the first place (You know, CCP's paying customers). It wouldn't exist at all without us.

You're welcome.

Again, if a person bought Aurum to purchase in-game items they are paying customers. Free game or not, the Aurum was not free. You can remove yourself from the pedestal now.

Did CCP take away your Aurum? Did they close down the Dust servers? Did anyone force you to waste money on a promise of things to come? Did you seriously expect CCP to keep developing for the PS3 for ten years? It has been known for a long time that the game would migrate to a new platform (or be closed down), and lo and behold - it just did.

And yeah, I get it, CCP are effin' useless when it comes to keeping promises. Anyone who's paid any attention to how they roll would know that, and I'm sorry that you guys had to learn this the hard way. The fanfest keynote was a real **** move.

I think the right thing for CCP to do would be to refund any Aurum purchase the last month that hasn't already been lost on the battlefield. That will of course never happen, since they just took a huge hit to their finances after cancelling WoD. Their hedge fund investors probably want some returns.

But - A promise, a roadmap, a list of "things we want to do" is not a written contract.

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Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 283	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:14:00 - [271] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: There's no way yet to conclude if Legion will be on Unreal Engine 3 or 4. What they've been working on has been on U3 but it seems that's more due to it being faster and more convenient for them to tweak what they were already using in order to try all the new stuff they're testing with Legion. That's just for this "test version" though. We don't know if they'll stick with that when they start fully developing it for PC. I'm sure I've read/heard a dev talk about Unreal 4 at some point. If they're even mentioning it I think it's likely that they'll be using it. We'll see. Saberwing has said that because they have modified unreal 3 so much they dont see the point of using unreal 4. They would have to start again.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5509	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:14:00 - [272] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: next evolution of dust is legion... face this simple fact But it isnt dust. Dust is a ps3 exclusive, as of now legion will be a PC exclusive. Tell me how the same game can be called something else, be on a different system and be the same game. the game is the story, the features and how a game is played not the console it is on. legion will have all of what dust has with new advancements on every feature. change is not a new game its just plain old change. every single feature of dust, all be it changed in a small way will be in legion. that to any sane person makes dust, legion. besides legion is the project name not the game name. who is to say it won't be eve dust514 : legion expansion So by your logic Street Fighter 2 is the same as Street Fighter 4 and they are both actually just the same game right And the entire Dynasty Warriors franchise is also just one game. They're up to 8 now, with at least one and usually 2 spin-off games from each.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5509	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:16:00 - [273] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: But the Arguments comes down to If one product has everything while the other is missing pieces why play the less quality based version? Essentially if one product is identical but superior is all respects than how is it not the same game? So basically, Street Fighter 4 is still Street Fighter 2, but Street Fighter 2 isn't Street Fighter 4 because it's a less complete version of the game? Pretty sure that logic... ummm... isn't logic.
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 295	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:16:00 - [274] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: There's no way yet to conclude if Legion will be on Unreal Engine 3 or 4. What they've been working on has been on U3 but it seems that's more due to it being faster and more convenient for them to tweak what they were already using in order to try all the new stuff they're testing with Legion. That's just for this "test version" though. We don't know if they'll stick with that when they start fully developing it for PC. I'm sure I've read/heard a dev talk about Unreal 4 at some point. If they're even mentioning it I think it's likely that they'll be using it. We'll see. And these are very good points. Until CCP has the green light for development and shows us more toward beta version of Legion we just won't know it graphically capabilities. Like you said they could change their minds midway through the project. I'd imagine they used Unreal 3 to demonstrate the idea of Legion before deciding which software product to use for the project. Truth Behind U3 is that its pretty darn good engine but what keeps Dust from being graphically impressive is the PS3 architecture , its very difficult to work with. Many games on PS3 had various trouble working with it architecture and because of it had very difficult time reaching it full potential.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2944	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:17:00 - [275] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: Delta 749 wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: next evolution of dust is legion... face this simple fact But it isnt dust. Dust is a ps3 exclusive, as of now legion will be a PC exclusive. Tell me how the same game can be called something else, be on a different system and be the same game. the game is the story, the features and how a game is played not the console it is on. legion will have all of what dust has with new advancements on every feature. change is not a new game its just plain old change. every single feature of dust, all be it changed in a small way will be in legion. that to any sane person makes dust, legion. besides legion is the project name not the game name. who is to say it won't be eve dust514 : legion expansion So by your logic Street Fighter 2 is the same as Street Fighter 4 and they are both actually just the same game right I think what he means is that the game itself not bias to the console platform but the product itself. For example Street fighter 4 is on Xbox360 and PS3 but there is truly no difference between the two products. But if you get the update patch for one of those two products that changes the gaming variable than its different but still the same game. But the Arguments comes down to If one product has everything while the other is missing pieces why play the less quality based version? Essentially if one product is identical but superior is all respects than how is it not the same game? That depends on what you mean by superior, if the difference is graphics only then yes I would agree its the same regardless of platform but when you start talking about features and content I dont think its the same game at all To use Street Fighter as an example again vanilla SF4 and the upcoming Ultra SF4 might be essentially the same thing but vary a great deal in terms of content and gameplay so much so that its an entirely different game despite being nearly identical at a casual glance I dont know, maybe its because Ive been playing fighting games for years where reusing assets and such is very common but each game is its own distinct thing even if only separated by a year such as the KOF series even if they play near identically I think I rambled a bit but what Im getting at is balance tweaks and content changes will make Legion is own entirely separate game from Dust despite reusing assets and it has nothing to do with what console its on But I dont know why Adam is even arguing the point that its just a PC port when the Devs themselves have stated that its a new game
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 295	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:18:00 - [276] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Minor Treat wrote: But the Arguments comes down to If one product has everything while the other is missing pieces why play the less quality based version? Essentially if one product is identical but superior is all respects than how is it not the same game? So basically, Street Fighter 4 is still Street Fighter 2, but Street Fighter 2 isn't Street Fighter 4 because it's a less complete version of the game? Pretty sure that logic... ummm... isn't logic. I am not comparing Street fighter 2 with Street fighter 4... Compare it with Street figher 4 without updates of balance patches or new content with a Street fighter 4 with new content. For example Street fighter 4 vs Street fighter 4 Ultra. Two same games with two differences. See my point now?
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2944	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:19:00 - [277] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Delta 749 wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: next evolution of dust is legion... face this simple fact But it isnt dust. Dust is a ps3 exclusive, as of now legion will be a PC exclusive. Tell me how the same game can be called something else, be on a different system and be the same game. the game is the story, the features and how a game is played not the console it is on. legion will have all of what dust has with new advancements on every feature. change is not a new game its just plain old change. every single feature of dust, all be it changed in a small way will be in legion. that to any sane person makes dust, legion. besides legion is the project name not the game name. who is to say it won't be eve dust514 : legion expansion So by your logic Street Fighter 2 is the same as Street Fighter 4 and they are both actually just the same game right And the entire Dynasty Warriors franchise is also just one game. They're up to 8 now, with at least one and usually 2 spin-off games from each. I dont qualify Dynasty Warriors as a game, its more of a stress relieving tool when you just want to shut off your mind and slaughter a few thousand guys by hitting Square a lot
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5509	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:19:00 - [278] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Saberwing has said that because they have modified unreal 3 so much they dont see the point of using unreal 4. They would have to start again. Actually he's said he doesn't really know, but he thinks that's what they said, it's not really his area of expertise. It's entirely possible that was just for the quickly thrown together demo version they were showing off at Fanfest, and that "proper" development will be happening in UE4. We don't know. Just like Saberwing doesn't.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 283	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:22:00 - [279] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Saberwing has said that because they have modified unreal 3 so much they dont see the point of using unreal 4. They would have to start again. Actually he's said he doesn't really know, but he thinks that's what they said, it's not really his area of expertise. It's entirely possible that was just for the quickly thrown together demo version they were showing off at Fanfest, and that "proper" development will be happening in UE4. We don't know. Just like Saberwing doesn't. Lets hope they use UE4. Would be better.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5509	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:24:00 - [280] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: For example Street fighter 4 vs Street fighter 4 Ultra. Two same games with two differences. See my point now? So you're saying that because you can argue that Street Fighter 4 is still Street Fighter 4 when the devs admit Ultra is basically an expansion and not a new game, the same is true for DUST and Legion, where not only are the two games not available in the same format like SF4 and SF4U, but they're explicitly given different names and stated by the devs to not be the same game, and to incorporate very different core mechanics?

PoP SoTa Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 168	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:24:00 - [281] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: I dont qualify Dynasty Warriors as a game, its more of a stress relieving tool when you just want to shut off your mind and slaughter a few thousand guys by hitting Square a lot You need to leave this conversation if you're already making personal judgement on what's a game or not. And btw - All games are stress relief tools. Numbnuts.
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 295	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:26:00 - [282] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Minor Treat wrote: For example Street fighter 4 vs Street fighter 4 Ultra. Two same games with two differences. See my point now? So you're saying that because you can argue that Street Fighter 4 is still Street Fighter 4 when the devs admit Ultra is basically an expansion and not a new game, the same is true for DUST and Legion, where not only are the two games not available in the same format like SF4 and SF4U, but they're explicitly given different names and stated by the devs to not be the same game, and to incorporate very different core mechanics? Exactly my point. So does it make it another game? I really don't have an answer for that. But I see his point has for why he thinks its different game. Edit: just to clarify, these are my supporting arguments for Adam of Eve's arguments. So basically I can understand why people would say its two different games.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2949	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:26:00 - [283] - Quote PoP SoTa wrote: Delta 749 wrote: I dont qualify Dynasty Warriors as a game, its more of a stress relieving tool when you just want to shut off your mind and slaughter a few thousand guys by hitting Square a lot You need to leave this conversation if you're already making personal judgement on what's a game or not. And btw - All games are stress relief tools. Numbnuts. That was a joke son
PoP SoTa Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 168	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:27:00 - [284] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: PoP SoTa wrote: Delta 749 wrote: I dont qualify Dynasty Warriors as a game, its more of a stress relieving tool when you just want to shut off your mind and slaughter a few thousand guys by hitting Square a lot You need to leave this conversation if you're already making personal judgement on what's a game or not. And btw - All games are stress relief tools. Numbnuts. That was a joke son Oh, good. There's so many dumb comments around here these days I'm having a hard time finding out which is a joke and which is serious.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2949	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:29:00 - [285] - Quote PoP SoTa wrote: Delta 749 wrote: PoP SoTa wrote: Delta 749 wrote: I dont qualify Dynasty Warriors as a game, its more of a stress relieving tool when you just want to shut off your mind and slaughter a few thousand guys by hitting Square a lot You need to leave this conversation if you're already making personal judgement on what's a game or not. And btw - All games are stress relief tools. Numbnuts. That was a joke son Oh, good. There's so many dumb comments around here these days I'm having a hard time finding out which is a joke and which is serious. No worries And actually I kind of have the urge to play Dynasty Warriors so I might pop in 7 when I get home
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 295	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:31:00 - [286] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Minor Treat wrote: For example Street fighter 4 vs Street fighter 4 Ultra. Two same games with two differences. See my point now? So you're saying that because you can argue that Street Fighter 4 is still Street Fighter 4 when the devs admit Ultra is basically an expansion and not a new game, the same is true for DUST and Legion, where not only are the two games not available in the same format like SF4 and SF4U, but they're explicitly given different names and stated by the devs to not be the same game, and to incorporate very different core mechanics? Exactly my point. So does it make it another game? I really don't have an answer for that. But I see his point has for why he thinks its different game. Edit: just to clarify, these are my supporting arguments for Adam of Eve's arguments. So basically I can understand why people would say its two different games. Oh and technically SF4U is consider a New game because they added Ultra which to be honest as consumers we all know its not the case but what blurs the line is when core mechanics are changed.
Jake Diesel BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 164	Posted - 2014.05.07 17:33:00 - [287] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: You're all just crying that these things won't come out on PS3. They're still committed to fulfilling all of their "promises" (like they owe us promises). For example, having a player market integrated with EVE is one reason WHY they chose to move to PC, so that they can actually do it. They wanted to do it all on PS3 and couldn't. Now they're moving to PC so that they can actually fulfill their promises regarding what the game was supposed to be and you all are calling them liers. Doesn't add up. They're giving you everything they committed to and more, but because it's not exactly the way you want it you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Oh Lolz. You obviously do not get it. Simply put - a lot of DUST players cannot/will not buy a pc. Legion is for PC. So what happens to the players who cannot/will not buy pc? I'll let you figure that out.
Dr Dammit Sognariket Logistics 27	Posted - 2014.05.07 18:20:00 - [288] - Quote bigolenuts wrote: Dr Dammit wrote: Mojo XXXIII wrote: Instead of mocking us, maybe you PC guys should be THANKING us. After all, if it weren't for our support and feedback over the past two years, there probably wouldn't even be an Eve: Legion coming to the PC for you guys to play at all. Or maybe you should thank the Eve PC players for funding Dust in the first place (You know, CCP's paying customers). It wouldn't exist at all without us. You're welcome. Again, if a person bought Aurum to purchase in-game items they are paying customers. Free game or not, the Aurum was not free. You can remove yourself from the pedestal now. Did CCP take away your Aurum? Did they close down the Dust servers? Did anyone force you to waste money on a promise of things to come? Did you seriously expect CCP to keep developing for the PS3 for ten years? It has been known for a long time that the game would migrate to a new platform (or be closed down), and lo and behold - it just did. And yeah, I get it, CCP are effin' useless when it comes to keeping promises. Anyone who's paid any attention to how they roll would know that, and I'm sorry that you guys had to learn this the hard way. The fanfest keynote was a real **** move. I think the right thing for CCP to do would be to refund any Aurum purchase the last month that hasn't already been lost on the battlefield. That will of course never happen, since they just took a huge hit to their finances after cancelling WoD. Their hedge fund investors probably want some returns. But - A promise, a roadmap, a list of "things we want to do" is not a written contract.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5510	Posted - 2014.05.07 20:38:00 - [289] - Quote Dr Dammit wrote: Did CCP take away your Aurum? Did they close down the Dust servers? Did anyone force you to waste money on a promise of things to come? Did you seriously expect CCP to keep developing for the PS3 for ten years? It has been known for a long time that the game would migrate to a new platform (or be closed down), and lo and behold - it just did. Did they take away Aurum? Effectively, for some people, yes they did. People bought their Aurum based on a promise for a PS4 version which has since been stated not to be in the works at the moment. In some cases, the person already owns the PS4 they were planning to play on, and doesn't have an up-to-date PC or the money (or the desire) to buy one. Quote: But - A promise, a roadmap, a list of "things we want to do" is not a written contract. Maybe not, but consumer protection laws in those countries which have them (most of Europe and a few places in the Pacific including New Zealand and Australia, among other regions) are just as legally binding as a written contract.
Jin Foxdale Jedi Slime. 170	Posted - 2014.05.07 20:59:00 - [290] - Quote Ive spent the evening reading through this wonderful thread, and fall firmly into the unhappy console camp. These are dark days indeed! I'm not going to try to add any points of my own, they have been said much more deeply and eloquently than I ever could (I'm looking specifically at you, Blacknova, you clever devil) but I would like to thank all of the posters for a very entertaining read. props even go to the OP -most of you may not like him, but you gotta admit hes fighting his corner and taking on all comers! Still a CCP lapdog though If you see me in the redline, driving an LAV in circles, fear not! Its my two year old son enjoying New Eden.

Harold Junk SATAN'S SECRET SOLDIERS 39	Posted - 2014.05.07 21:43:00 - [291] - Quote Quote: Did CCP take away your Aurum? Did they close down the Dust servers? Well not yet, they just stopped adding new content. They confirmed this. Fixes don't count. They sold Dust as an MMO, ending the development of new content is the swan song of any MMO. Bet they wouldn't do that EVE players without notice, not if they expected these people to buy another game from them ever again. But we are just stupid console players, they think they don't have to show us that courtesy. Quote: Did anyone force you to waste money on a promise of things to come? They didn't force me to, they misled me on purpose because they believed I wouldn't pay if I knew that Dust was dying. Quote: Did you seriously expect CCP to keep developing for the PS3 for ten years? Nope. I never read anything about the "ten year plan", I wish I had, it would have struck me as highly suspicious. The most confusing thing about all this is how they thought they could get away with that lie. Clearly they never meant 10 years of support on the ps3, but oopsy-daisy! they forgot to clear that up with fans, and coincidentally profited from it. Quote: It has been known for a long time that the game would migrate to a new platform Link please.
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 778	Posted - 2014.05.07 21:59:00 - [292] - Quote my biggest problem is the no pve part... they really need to add that to ps3 regardless as well as that other stuff.. though pve should be the bigger priority. it can be difficult to work within limitations of a system sometimes. but if u play eve on an old out dated computer or any game really. the game really isnt that good. cause its highest settings are impossible to run. as well as the fact that all computers will eventually become super slow. consoles just only seem to become obsolete the second the next version comes out. and since companies seem to be doing away with backwards compatibility and such theres plenty of reason to keep a ps3 and continue playing it. a game like dust 514 which should always be getting new lore content added to the game and updated and maintenance should be a game that keeps ppl coming back. no matter what.and should continue to keep getting new players. mlt vets are eternal. they shall be the bane to proto scrubs everywhere... dust 514 shall be eternal.
jenza aranda BetaMax. 3234	Posted - 2014.05.07 22:15:00 - [293] - Quote MTACs 2013 ;) Dust 514 101 // Dust 514 Wiki
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5514	Posted - 2014.05.07 23:53:00 - [294] - Quote Harold Junk wrote: Nope. I never read anything about the "ten year plan", I wish I had, it would have struck me as highly suspicious. The most confusing thing about all this is how they thought they could get away with that lie. Clearly they never meant 10 years of support on the ps3, but oopsy-daisy! they forgot to clear that up with fans, and coincidentally profited from it. Quote: It has been known for a long time that the game would migrate to a new platform Link please. As far back as closed beta, they had been talking about the 10 year plan and it specifically included a move to some form of next-gen platform at a point where such a move was reasonable to make, but anything past the next year or so was pretty short on the "planning" side of things. It was never so much a "plan" as a promise that the game would still be around that far into the future, using EVE's 10-year history as evidence that they could do it. They ALSO used EVE's past history of phasing out support for older systems while adding new content to confirm that the game WASN'T going to be held back and locked into PS3 forever, because MOVING ON WAS PART OF THE PLAN. Most people didn't question the 10 year plan, because it was never a 10 years on PS3 plan. The immediate problem where they "didn't clear things up" was that they had announced they were CURRENTLY "laser focused on PS3" and explicitly stated they had big things coming for DUST and that 1.8 and even 1.9 wouldn't be the end for DUST, as well as having Sony show DUST 514 promotional material as part of their PS4 presentation, stating that the game would be eventually coming to PS4. When they decided to reverse that course of action, they not only avoided telling anyone, but effectively muzzled the few who did know (CPM + NDA = ???). Because of their decision to keep quiet, their Aurum sales during the period where they've been working on Legion are pretty harshly smeared with the taint of false advertising and misleading conduct, partiularly given the fact that statements were made by company reps that were outright lies about the direction being taken by the dev team. On top of that, they hadn't just been selling Aurum, but they had special event sales with rare items and discounts on things to encourage people to effectively throw money away based on STILL FRESH promises that had already been gone back on without telling the customers.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5514	Posted - 2014.05.07 23:54:00 - [295] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: MTACs 2013 ;) As should already be clear to everyone, it's not going to be 2013 until at least 2018 at this rate.
Rupture Reaperson SyNergy Gaming EoN. 323	Posted - 2014.05.08 02:19:00 - [296] - Quote Jin Foxdale wrote: props even go to the OP -most of you may not like him, but you gotta admit hes fighting his corner and taking on all comers! Still a CCP lapdog though I dont know if spewing idiocy its considered "fighting"... but each to its own I guess.
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 891	Posted - 2014.05.08 02:28:00 - [297] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Why is it when I read the OP I kept hearing the sound of a pastey Icelandic man being sucked off? A brilliant riposte. You, sir, are a genius. Munch Anyone who buys AUR now is a fool.
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 891	Posted - 2014.05.08 02:49:00 - [298] - Quote I think "dust" is Icelandic for "bend over". Munch Anyone who buys AUR now is a fool.
XxWarlordxX97 BurgezzE.T.F 4298	Posted - 2014.05.08 02:50:00 - [299] - Quote Where is PvE? I'm a Elite heavy "I don't rage.I get even" Please be free
zzZaXxx The Phoenix Federation 407	Posted - 2014.05.08 03:27:00 - [300] - Quote Dr Dammit wrote: bigolenuts wrote: Dr Dammit wrote: Mojo XXXIII wrote: Instead of mocking us, maybe you PC guys should be THANKING us. After all, if it weren't for our support and feedback over the past two years, there probably wouldn't even be an Eve: Legion coming to the PC for you guys to play at all. Or maybe you should thank the Eve PC players for funding Dust in the first place (You know, CCP's paying customers). It wouldn't exist at all without us. You're welcome. Again, if a person bought Aurum to purchase in-game items they are paying customers. Free game or not, the Aurum was not free. You can remove yourself from the pedestal now. Did CCP take away your Aurum? Did they close down the Dust servers? Did anyone force you to waste money on a promise of things to come? Did you seriously expect CCP to keep developing for the PS3 for ten years? It has been known for a long time that the game would migrate to a new platform (or be closed down), and lo and behold - it just did. And yeah, I get it, CCP are effin' useless when it comes to keeping promises. Anyone who's paid any attention to how they roll would know that, and I'm sorry that you guys had to learn this the hard way. The fanfest keynote was a real **** move. I think the right thing for CCP to do would be to refund any Aurum purchase the last month that hasn't already been lost on the battlefield. That will of course never happen, since they just took a huge hit to their finances after cancelling WoD. Their hedge fund investors probably want some returns. But - A promise, a roadmap, a list of "things we want to do" is not a written contract. CCP has way more interaction with it's players than other game developers, and of course that interaction is mostly about where the game is going, changes, balancing, etc. And then there's Fanfest and twitter and all that. So there's a lot of communication that builds up expectations. Most other game companies just leave their players in the dark until the product is ready. Heck, most don't even have a concept of community feedback being part of the development process. Sometimes CCP has to change course and it's jarring to the community, but that better than having been treated like total consumers with no input the whole time.



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