sounds like CoD to me.

sounds like CoD to me.

weapon tiercide and adding in weapon rigging would help too. Just sayin.......

Weapon rigging = yes, much please.
However, IMO weapon tiers can stay- it allows you to choose how much of your fitting resources to allocate to pure offense vs utility/defense in the form of modules.

Sounds way too much like a hello kitty land 514 (teircide) then a gritty hard place to play in and also sounds more like it's catering for people wanting an easy mode for their SP gain... doesn't sound New Edenish to me.

Also touch our dren and templar BPOs with this filthy teircide and watch the forum's burn. We bought them as exclusive suits and gear to use and I'll be damned to see them turn into cosmetics.

... how so?
In that your SP wouldn't grant you a nigh-insurmountable advantage over new players?

yup, I'm evil.

It's funny thought, with all the SP events lately i've been seeing and killing a lot more "proto stompers" running shiitake fit proto gear. point being: mods are nice but Core skills and suit bonuses do a hell of a lot more, and you don't run out of those.

I remember last year at fanfest CCP talked about a "war for sport" branch of game play. If you want "fun fair fights" more focused on player skill that SP investment I think that would be right up your alley.

Im not saying that things are fine the way they are now, we defiantly need more content.

I'll leave this here and go pop some popcorn.


teamwork > gear. every day of the week.

I'll leave this here and go pop some popcorn.


teamwork > gear. every day of the week.

I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value?

I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value?

Hmmm think of it this way Suit with 5x basic shield extenders and a STD rail rifle pack less punch than a suit with 5x complex shield extender with a Kaalakata Rail rifle.

A complex Armor reper reps faster than a MLT armor reper

They would have the same slot layout but You would have the better modules and weapons.

Exactly, the PG/CPU tradeoff makes the tiers for weapons, equipment, and modules fair in my opinion, so they should keep tiers.

The benefit of Tiericide lies not in 'i spent more ISK on a dropsuit so i can stack more'
The benefit is that 'i skilled my Fittings Optimizations and Cores, so i COULD fit a 600/400 HP tank on my Basic medframe, and that i only need to sort my fittings based on their cost, not the suit, followed by cost.

That still fundamentally means I am better than him because I have ISK and SP........ I guess its not a great in terms of difference......but at that point I see no reason to invest SP and ISK into a build if I received no visible benefits over a lesser build.

My point is why did MLY HAV sales increase five fold and why are those sales numbers as static as they are?

Because MLT HAV are so close in module efficiencies and frame value that there is no real reason to use better since you can achieve the same level of effectiveness with a tank valued at 1/2 the price......

All that means to me, and please by all means try to persuade me, that a new player with less than a quarter of the time and 1/2 the ISK invested is functionally on par with me...... bad or good, what was the point of me putting in effort to develop my tank?

SO More SP = Better performance as opposed to

More ISK and SP= Better performance.

That still fundamentally means I am better than him because I have ISK and SP........ I guess its not a great in terms of difference......but at that point I see no reason to invest SP and ISK into a build if I received no visible benefits over a lesser build.

My point is why did MLY HAV sales increase five fold and why are those sales numbers as static as they are?

Because MLT HAV are so close in module efficiencies and frame value that there is no real reason to use better since you can achieve the same level of effectiveness with a tank valued at 1/2 the price......

All that means to me, and please by all means try to persuade me, that a new player with less than a quarter of the time and 1/2 the ISK invested is functionally on par with me...... bad or good, what was the point of me putting in effort to develop my tank?

Hey Kage,

You realize that drop suit tiericide will further increase the disparity that CCP should be trying to fix.

You have some good opinions about many other things, but a tiericide system will only further the problem and does little to address matchmaking.

You can't just dismiss it without providing some reasoning. Your statement in isolation makes no sense.

Much as I want tiercide, I am sad to say there are 3 basic reasons it will never happen.

1) the vet community are substantially the largest voice by virtue of the NPE and they also have the largest vested interest in maintaining the status quo

2) CCP are intellectually wedded to the idea that this is somehow an MMO, they would rather double down on the problem than backtrack.

3) it's a **** load of recoding which they do not have the resources for.

It's a great little exercise in theory crafting for those of us who support it but the sad reality is that it just isn't going to happen. The NPE will continue to be toilet, the game will be permanently unbalanced and the actual, larger FPS community will NEVER accept this game.

A tiercidie system is one which limits the grade (mot, std, adv., Proto) of the suit and/or modules allows to be used on said suit.

Th goal is to keep a limit, in theory to limit the disparity between the types of suits on the battlefield. It means that a new player, who has no choice but to use a mlt or std suit won't be matched up against a Proto suit in a match. But due to the current SP system and module boosts you immediately provide the advantage to those which more SP.

Quick example, player A has 3m SP. He enters a std drop suit match, where he can bring std and mlt gear into a match. He lacks anything more than level 1 modules and level 1 weapons and nades. He is playing with the highest possible CPU/PG for equipment, weapons but also has the lowest CPU/PG for his suit. His modules and his weapon do not provide him with any additional stats. He further lacks weapon prof skills (damage, reload, reduction) but his suit is also at a serious disadvantage. His std suit lacks racial bonuses (which matter significantly) and depending on his class (most likely assault as he will be unable to choose scout or heavy) he has no hope when he spawns.

Just think of the advantages given by weapon skills alone and you can see how this system is greatly flawed. Now you add in the CPU/PG disadvantages, the module bonus disadvantages, the equipment disadvantages, the role restrictions, the "specialization" restrictions, the racial bonus removal... These things stack and stack and stack and produce odds which are very difficult to overcome.

The benefit of Tiericide lies not in 'i spent more ISK on a dropsuit so i can stack more'
The benefit is that 'i skilled my Fittings Optimizations and Cores, so i COULD fit a 600/400 HP tank on my Basic medframe, and that i only need to sort my fittings based on their cost, not the suit, followed by cost.

If you read the post it shows tiericide will reinforce the gap its it trying to address.

1. Tiericide doesn't fix the balancing issue in matches, it reinforces the gap between "rich and poor" so to speak via suit, modules, weapon bonuses afforded by SP. By restricting the suit one can wear, you aren't addressing any balancing issue but in fact cement it because even if a suit and outlook is exactly the same, the higher SP will win very gun battle given the same skill level due to his inherent bonuses.

2. By dividing matches into suits, it will take longer to find matches and it will lead to more pros vs joes, as the pros will just select the std suit type matches and tear the players up you should be trying to protect. But a suit tier system doesn't protect them, it highlights them which leads to abuse, stomps, unbalanced matches.

3. No AUR incentives, no reason to chase the next level when levels are limited.

4. Exploitation. Suit levels doesn't limit or balance greater than SP does. If you are limiting suits, skill will shine but experience and bonuses will shine more, so it doesn't help New Player A. It again, keeps the new player down and at a disadvantage.

If you read the post it shows tiericide will reinforce the gap its it trying to address.

1. Tiericide doesn't fix the balancing issue in matches, it reinforces the gap between "rich and poor" so to speak via suit, modules, weapon bonuses afforded by SP. By restricting the suit one can wear, you aren't addressing any balancing issue but in fact cement it because even if a suit and outlook is exactly the same, the higher SP will win very gun battle given the same skill level due to his inherent bonuses.

I clearly show this 3 times, by addressing issues in roles (min scouts + cloaking), heavies (very hard to skill into sentinels early, and racial/weapon bonuses providing massive advantages. So Player A spawns and is at a disadvantage every time. Like I said, most people early on are restricted to assault or Logi because heavies and scouts are not realistic and not usable early on. So you have Player A, limited, without bonuses, without specialization and role optimization, without suit or weapon optimization so you have reinforced disparity.

Go make a alt, grab a level 1 weapon like the CR or RR, things people really spec into, and see if you see a massive difference. Now add 15% damage vs armor to a gun vs a std suit! one weapon is going to eat the suit while the other one will not. Now consider the difference between a std assault with no SP boosts against a sent with all its boosts. You gonna say, just not have sentinels allowed? Gonna say since scouts are really able to use cloaks early that experience scouts can't use them too? You going to say let's limit suits and guns to std but disregard the proficiency to damage, recoil/accuracy, PG reduction, rapid reload, etc..

2. By dividing matches into suits, it will take longer to find matches and it will lead to more pros vs joes, as the pros will just select the std suit type matches and tear the players up you should be trying to protect. But a suit tier system doesn't protect them, it highlights them which leads to abuse, stomps, unbalanced matches.

3. No AUR incentives, no reason to chase the next level when levels are limited.

4. Exploitation. Suit levels doesn't limit or balance greater than SP does. If you are limiting suits, skill will shine but experience and bonuses will shine more, so it doesn't help New Player A. It again, keeps the new player down and at a disadvantage.

5. Try taking down vehicles. You can't remove vehicles, they are of major importance to the game providing roles, more diversity, more options to the same old mundane infantry vs infantry which is tiresome, they are a positive to the game not a negative. You can't just go around limiting everything, removing everything, making useless rules on everything because no1 will want to play. Options are a positive and limiting suits doesn't provide balance it provides needless limits to a game that cant afford to turn more players off.

Like i said, if you wanted to talk about weapons, or more issues i can name a few more. The idea isn't to limit, rather to keep matches balanced and not keep the same old gap between rich and poor.

Hey Kage,

You realize that drop suit tiericide will further increase the disparity that CCP should be trying to fix.

You have some good opinions about many other things, but a tiericide system will only further the problem and does little to address matchmaking.

If you, the community, want a solution I suggest a balanced matchmaking system based on SP + skill (a score based on WP averages). I have outlined it a few times but it seems a reasonable solution designed to solve not only NPE but designed to ensure both teams have as close to equal chance at winning every battle, be able to kill any opponent - it would also take the scoring of top 3 players in a squad, to prevent any sort of system abuse, something tiericide will greatly have.

Make my standard BPO gear have miltia grade stuff? Hell no.

4. I pointed out major issues with tiericide, i think the idea is garbage. I don't think any player should have a massive advantage over another, the more you balance the game upon skill the better. Making suit tier restrictions will limit the game greatly. SKILL SHOULD BE THE ADVANTAGE, not whether or not you have more SP and SP related advantages.

Can I add:

Fully decked out bonuses on the Amarr Std Sentinel, even with std armor and shield extenders is going to be 1411 eHP.

With racial bonuses to the Amarr, you really think anything but a standard RE is going to take it down?

You think some scout, who doesn't have the SP to use a cloak is going to get the jump on him? Scout will be 100% visible, it's very hard to equip a 10-11 PG kin cat on a scout to get it mobility. Its 170 eHP basic std frame is going to get chewed alive. Can't really equip a cloak until its CPU/PG reduction skill makes it viable around 6-7m SP.

You think the std assault or Logi is going to take it down, it's not sensible to pick a Sent or Scout early, so you will most likely see assault suits using std rifles with no damage boosts. Yea, this tiericide is a great idea.

It really makes the gap close. Lmao.
How is tiericide a better solution than skill + SP matchmaking system?! It's just a ploy by the dumb, or elite, to trick you into wanting a system in which they will exploit. They will know exactly where to find the weak, they will continue to do what they are doing now, stomping those that a matchmaking system should be keeping separated. Tiericide doesn't separate these people, it highlights where they will be.

Let me give you two scenarios and you tell me which scenario has a larger power differential between two players.

Scenario 1:
New player in a standard logi suit with a full set of standard mods, weapon, and equipment against a fully core skilled player wearing a proto logi suit with a full suite of complex modules, full passives on those modules, a proto weapon, and a mix of adv and proto equipment.

vs

Scenario 2:
New player in a proto suit with a full suite of standard modules, weapon, and equipment and against that same prototype player.

Considering logi suits already have a suit bonus, the bonus differential remains the same. 1 level of 'racial' logi bonus vs the full 5 levels of 'racial' logi bonus.

In which case is the new player at a larger disadvantage compared to the veteran player in a 1v1?

Heres how it would work, as I imagine it:

Take the unbonused frame suits (light med and heavy) and keep the ADV as the new militia variants, none of which would require SP. The pro, you get to try out these suits, but they dont specialized, dont get any kind of bonus. basically, they are there for you to try out, find your playstyle before you commit SP.

Now, regular suits. All suits are to be replaced by their Proto equivilent. Example:

To unlock a minmatar Logi suit, you need to invest first in the Minmatar Dropsuit skill (this replaces the min light, med and heavy suit skills, SP sinks as they are). Different tiers of this skill unlock the different types of suit, similarly to todays dropsuit command skill, which I would remove. 1=Assault, 3=Scout,pilot, 5= sentinel, etc.

Minmatar Dropsuits 3 > Minmatar Logistics 1 = todays proto min logi.

Now, this suit will not be at its full potential, but you have the same amount of slots as everyone else and fitting. But, with the skill at just 1, you wont be as powerful, but you will be close. As you add more SP to the suit skill it gets better.

Caldari Dropsuits 5 > Caldari Commando 1 = todays proto Calcommando.

etc

TL;DR: all suits are now protosuits, SP just makes them better thru bonuses, nearly equalizing suits thru fitting, and not relying on "content = variety"

This is what I've been saying. It doesnt close the gap totally, but it does make it alot better for new players. It'll at the very least put them in a position where if they have better gun game, they will come out on top, not where they get stomped because they only have 50% HP than those proto players. WHY DONT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS??!?!? I'm beginning to think people are against tiericide because they want to continue to be able to farm new players for their KDRs.

As a vet who only runs STD or sometimes ADV, I relish /loathe the idea of having an inexpensive basic suit with lots of slots to maximally leverage my fully completed Dropsuit Upgrades tab.

I suppose the downside is that under tiericide, i will have no choice but to be a protstomping d!ckhead.

I wonder how many other vets feel the same way.

Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE.

There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe.

Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded.

The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix.

2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue.

5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses.

Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces.

WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system.

What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone.

Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE.

There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe.

Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded.

The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix.

2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue.

5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses.

Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces.

WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system.

What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone.

You could run a suit with a full suite of standard modules and, at best, only have the armor and shield upgrades passive bonus vs a brand new player. That player can get armor and shield upgrades to 3 in 1-2 weeks, catching up 60% of that differential.

That fit with full std modules would be fairly close in price to what you run now too.

I don't see the problem.

A system like this would also give me incentive to pick other suits up without having to take them to 5 first.

If I wanted to run Logi mk.0 vs my current proto logi ak.0, I NEED to get that suit to proto before it is, in any way, better than my current fit. I literally have no reason to run another logi suit until that suit is level 5 and proto before its worth using for me. My ak.0 is superior to any adv logi suit of another race.

I just cant justify waiting for 8+ weeks to casually gain 2.5 million SP just to run another suit situationally.

and no, isk is not a factor to me. I have hundreds of millions of isk from chromosome and I can stay isk positive running proto constantly.

-Stuff-

I suggest you try eve Cotsy. The ship hulls in eve are tiercided and im always excited to unlock a new turret or module. I'm perfectly happy that there isn't three separate destroyers for me to fly and two are clearly inferior to the third.

1. Dust 514 is a waiting game. Being impatient is how CCP makes money, you want something and can't get it so you buy AUR. Thats how CCP makes money. I've played 2 years and got 20m SP. Yea, its a slow pace game.

2. There is little reason to get another Logi suit, really the only one is required. Better to max equipment than to get a second suit if you wanted better times/output on your equipment. Diversify, get a scout, maybe get ads, have fun.

3. The current ISK situation is a problem, players have millions to billions and are constantly gaining more from a broken system, but say if you were matched against similar skilled players, and the ISK situation (which you exploited) was as intended, then running Proto gear wouldn't be an unlimited thing. It would be selective and a ISK dependant thing, like it was suppose to be.

You can't argue that because you exploited the ISK system that its broken completely, if it was as intended then Proto stompers would be matched against Proto stompers and not in situations whereby proto stompers are matched up against noobs and are not at risk of losing their 250k suits.

There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it......

THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS!

This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat.

What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas.

Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE!

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it......

THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS!

This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat.

What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas.

Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE!

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

There have been a few posts by a CM, in which the topic[tiericide] was introduced and blindly supported. To which, a few others blindly supported the system, without knowing what it was. So a few more people made topics, explaining that it is a system in which a ceiling on gear (suits, weapons, mods) is made to attempt to fix the disparity between vet and novice players.

To Glantix,

I'll try and add to my thoughts,

Why is tiericide being talked about?;
CCP is supposedly looking at how to improve the game, and it has been suggested that addressing matchmaking will be looked at. Judging by CCP's response in EVE to imbalance, one can see they are more likely to use a tiericide model again.

There have been a few posts by a CM, in which the topic was introduced and blindly supported. To which, a few others blindly supported the system, without knowing what it was. So a few more people made topics, explaining that it is a system in which a ceiling on gear (suits, weapons, mods) is made to attempt to fix the disparity between vet and novice players.

A few, including myself, have pointed out that tiericide is not the best solution, and tiericide would only continue to reinforce to disparity we are currently dealing with.

Currently:
I am not saying that our current system is working, no one is. People are simply showing the massive flaws in logic, the lack of supporting evidence and the major issues associated with a tier gear based system. It will keep the elite at the top, it will allow them to highlight and easily find these novice targets, and tiericide does little to expand the game. In fact at lower levels the game is very restrictive, scouts and heavies are not seen and are not realistic options.

Even inside your class, it is hard to be diverse when seeking to expand your role. Normally, (i only have one) players have 1 suit (normally assault) early so youre going to have the same 4 suits with the same basic armor plates on all builds. It's boring and harmful.

What should be done?:
There is no balanced in a tier based system, there is only balance along skill. Okay, tiericide is not the answer but neither is our current matchmaking system which can match my 500k SP character against a NS q-synced squad (it has before). So what is to be done, i suggest a two sided system. One based on SP and one based on a skill score (SP+WP), with the added point that in a squad only the three tops skill scores are used to determine opponents (prevents abuse of system).

My suggestion:
SP hard phase:
0-4m SP will be the battle academy.
5-9m SP will be the beginner phase.

Intro to Skill Based phase:
10-14m SP will be the advanced phase.
15-19 SP will be the advanced-2 phase.
20-26m+ SP will be the veteran phase.


I have details, of course i do, about each class and what you can see and expect in each class. If you want my suggestion, for a system i believe is a better option, I can expand on it for you. And of course, I would love input, suggestions, additions to it.

This is what I've been saying. It doesnt close the gap totally, but it does make it alot better for new players. It'll at the very least put them in a position where if they have better gun game, they will come out on top, not where they get stomped because they only have 50% HP than those proto players. WHY DONT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS??!?!? I'm beginning to think people are against tiericide because they want to continue to be able to farm new players for their KDRs.

As a vet who only runs STD or sometimes ADV, I relish /loathe the idea of having an inexpensive basic suit with lots of slots to maximally leverage my fully completed Dropsuit Upgrades tab.

I suppose the downside is that under tiericide, i will have no choice but to be a protstomping d!ckhead.

I wonder how many other vets feel the same way.

Tiericide has nothing to do with matchmaking. Tiericide and tier based matchmaking are diametrically opposed. You can't have tier based matchmaking without tiers. Please stop misrepresenting tiericide.

SP-based matchmaking is a terrible solution. It artificially punishes breadth- one person may have 25m SP and a maxed-out protosuit, while another person with 25m SP may have a few different ADV suits and maybe a basic HAV.

A. By 24m SP you should 1000% have a Proto suit! Proto weapon(s), maxed all cores skills. If you don't have a max'ed suit after CCP gave you a free reset, then you have more issues than simply not being able to run Proto suits. There is no punishment because it's based on skill.
Why is there an importance placed on Proto usage only?! You don't have to use a Proto suit to succeed, you don't need one to take down Proto suits, what you do need is SP bonuses and skill. I don't ever run Proto gear, I take down suits and out up a good fight against Proto stomping squads.


B. No, this isn't EVE, but CCP has experience using the model and the way it was brought up it seems like CCP likes tiericide as a solution. Tiericide is the balance of matches based on balance of specialization suits, gear, output, levels etc.. based on a artificial ceiling, which may be along the std, adv, Proto lines. (I assume, although the CM suggested std, adv, adv 2, Proto, Proto 2) So everyone who would enter a std match would in theory be balanced by their limitations and produce an equal match.

Its good CCP recognizes this is a problem, and will more than likely use a model they have previously used to create balance.
Look tiericide is good, it's not perfect, I don't hate the idea, I just think there should be a skilled based system. I do not enjoy killing medic suits with my Advanced Cloaked Gal scout. I want to play against equal opponents who have similar skill, SP, and experience in the game as me.

EVE has some really nice things, just subscription based model is blah. I rather spend 60$ on dark souls and play for years, or free games. There's planetside 2, the new online ghost recon both for PS4 that are free and look amazing. I use to be down with madden every year but its the same game, i much prefer updates model over yearly purchases of a game which highlights are better looking grass .


A system based on skill level of the player is a better option; placing someone in a match with similarly skilled teammates and opponents, who have the same range of options in gear, same SP advantages in bonuses, and where every person in the match would have marginal advantages over one another should be highly considered.
Problem is vets do not want balance, they do not care the system is broken because they are having too much fun stomping inadequate opponents and putting up huge scores. They don't want a 12-8 match against other skilled players, they want 20-3 match where they run over their foes.

As I said in a post above, yes it will reduce the initial gap between a new guy and a proto guy, but not by much. On top of that, teircide will increase the time it takes for the new guy to become on par with the vet. All of this aside, teircide will take all of the joy about skilling up your suits in this game, and it will generally take away this unique style of gameplay and mechanics that CCP has worked so hard to develop.

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it......

THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS!

This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat.

What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas.

Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE!

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

He's just a hater that likes the statas quo and he's just trying to confuse people into thinking tiercide would do the exact opposite of make what it's trying to do.

Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE.

There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe.

Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded.

The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix.

2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue.

5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses.

Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces

WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system.

What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone.

I looked at it, the lower end of the tiers will be cookie cutter builds, no diversity. In wolf's argument thread, i tore his ideas upset and so did a few others in the thread and in following threads. Just because wolf says it will provide more diversity doesn't mean it does, he didn't provide any good argument but at least he understands there is a problem. He recognizes a problem and uses a few buzz words to get everyone excited, but he failed to argue against how vets won't have great advantage in such a system and he failed to demonstrate how scouts and sentinels would be viable option without major changes to the current game and skill tree.

Look, i showed you that it is not reasonable to use a scout or sentinel in std (and ofc mlt) type tiers. So, how could someone argue it will diversify when you eliminate the two more diverse roles?! He wants suits which are more specific, there's nothing specific about what you will see at lower end of the tiers. I showed scout, sentinel stats and its clear at lower levels the game will look like your first 2 battle academy matches in terms of suit + gear but will end up looking like those 2-3 players who have teams and have tanks in the battle academy somehow. A few will exploit, the NPE will continue to kill game growth, and vets will leave, CCP will leave money and this will be a failure.

Right now, if a new player wants to get up to the level of a vet, he/she simply needs to save up and get proto modules/weapons and equip them to a proto suit. Sure the vet still has advantages with proficiencies and whatnot, but the newberry can put himself/herself on a pretty close level compared to when he/she started.


To summarize, what teircide does is take away all the excitement of progressing through the game, and it increases the gap betw

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

The point is that better things should cost more ISK. Not sure, but thats the point. The better something is, the more expensive it is. Maybe you don't think 100k is worth the disparity that 1 extra mod provides you. Not really sure, but the economy of dust is built around ISK being not so easy to come by and making players feel the hurt for losing many Proto suits in a battle. Now, players throw billions at their suits and ISK is only relevant for lesser players.


Seem to be under impression present issues don't exists?! Not sure if you're tired too, but I've been arguing for a balanced matchmaking process for months. One based on skill which accounts for SP advantages, keep advantages marginal.

Keep the elite away from those who cannot compete with them. Whether that be due to skill or SP, you need to keep vets away from the noobs until they are ready to compete. Not provide vets with the opportunity for easy picking by joining a skirmish match with std suit ceiling and going to town.


He has a good idea, he wants balance. He seems the next tier of suit being +1, while it's not equal, it is better. But this is primarily due to SP advantages (there is no skill, you take skill as an equal). Two guys same suit, one has the bonuses and mods advantages and one does not. They both spawn, player will also have the advantage and given all brings equal one will always win and be better than the other. That's not balance, thats a cemented advantage for one player over another, whereby the better SP player can seek and find the lesser player. Now because their are limited role and possibilities for the lesser player, this ad range becomes even more prominent when you consider one can use two classes more and most importantly one can use the most OP thing in the game, the cloak, and one cannot.

This is an insane disparity, just crazy, that someone would think this would be an acceptable solution. It only reinforces the current problem and extends the advantage because it limits one player so significantly he is unable to realistically overcome the advantages, has no ability to adapt, has no real ability to get out of a cookie cutter build.

Like i said, imagine a fully skilled std cal scout or std Amarr sentinel just running wild. Anyone with SP dumped into precision and range would see everything, anyone with SP dumped into a weapon would tear apart his novice counterpart. Reduction in weapon spread, damage vs armor/shields, rapid reload, PG reduction these alone provide significant advantages. Racial bonuses, please, massive advantages.

This tiercide system isn't an answer, its a banana peel. It's just another case of what we have now, vets owning noobs and not due to skill but strictly due to SP advantages.

All that said, I'm not necessarily for tiericide at this point in time. I like it in principle, however Dust has far too little content for tiericide to be beneficial yet. We need many many more specializations and more game modes other than team death match and objective holding/capturing.

Looking at Eve, it took them what 8? 10? years before they did tiericide, at which point there were hundreds of ships. We need at least a couple of dozen suits before we could do tiericide and not end up having no content to play with.

"Tiericide" is a transitional step moving from one design philosophy to another.

Fundamentally, what's being called "tiericide" is the same thing from EVE to DUST, not because ship hulls equate to dropsuits but because of the design philosophy.

WHAT TIERICIDE IS (PHILOSOPHY)

"Tiericide" is a transitional step moving from one design philosophy to another. Specifically, it's moving from a philosophy where experience and money buy greater power to one where every item in the game has a purpose. This was the stated intent as far as I saw of the "tiericide" effort in EVE: that a player with 10 years of skill training would have some reasonable justification to use every ship for which that player had trained.

To clarify, "tiericide" is not a long-term solution. The long-term solution is the design philosophy. "Tiericide" is a way of getting from the current philosophy to a new philosophy.

One could reasonably consider the current design philosophy "pay-to-win." This is because investing more ISK in your fit buys more power, with absolutely no downside other than the increased cost.

The new philosophy, on the other hand, considers ISK to be an economic factor rather than a balancing factor. When you consider opening the DUST economy to simple trading, mining, manufacturing, and research, let alone EVE, you may start to see how the simple ISK-for-power tradeoff becomes problematic. At the very least, it can contribute to a steep money-power loop.

HOW TO IMPLEMENT TIERICIDE

There are different camps. As IWS pointed out, it's not a great idea to go to CCP with specifics. (I've spent a lot of time on corporate strategy, so I can relate.) But for the purpose of this explanation, let's outline three.

First up is complete tiericide. Everything in the game that currently has tiers, gets cut down to one item. Instead of standard, advanced, and prototype codebreaker modules, you get one codebreaker module. Same with suits. Weapons would still have variants, but it would just be assault rifle, tactical assault rifle, breach assault rifle, and burst assault rifle--no standard, advanced, or proto.

Second is to put downsides on all equipment. This turns "better" equipment into "more specialized" equipment. For example, one prototype Scout suit might have a higher scan profile than its standard variant, while another might be slower than the standard, in exchange for other advantages or more PG/CPU. A prototype rail rifle might be more powerful but also have more kick than a standard variant.

The final approach I'll discuss is proposed in the original post in this thread. Simply remove the suit tiers. There will be one militia heavy frame, one basic heavy frame, one Commando, and one Sentinel for each race. Same with medium and light suits. Modules and weapons go untouched. The reasoning behind this is that the module, weapons, and equipment tiers have to balance around the suit's fixed PG/CPU. No one will be able to fill every slot with a prototype item, so for every fit you will have to choose whether you want more power in one slot at the expense of power in another slot. Thus the remaining standard/advanced/prototype tiers for modules, weapons, and equipment are justified on the basis of fittings costs and tradeoffs, not just ISK.

THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE

The most widespread impact will be an increase in variety without having to add any new content. Instead of just buying the most expensive version of all the same modules (I very much doubt that there's a whole lot of variation in how people fit Sentinels, for example), players will have to make choices about how the equipment they're choosing will impact the way they play.

The biggest potential negative impact is that players may feel less "elite" if higher tiers are removed, and disincentivize spending and skills. Going from driving a Ferrari to driving a Honda isn't functionally different, but the way you feel about it is different. I believe, if done right, that players won't really miss the tiers because of the ability to unlock variety and customization. Not to mention there is a different sense of "elite" in mastering something powerful that comes with downsides or weaknesses.

THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE ON NEW PLAYERS

The potential positive impact on the new player experience is a complicated one to discuss, because NPE is complicated in general. Research suggests players need to feel they are 90% of the way to "success" ("success" being a moving target as the player progresses) in order to be motivated to play. In this sense the concept that "having an elite motivates the new players to try to reach that level" is fundamentally flawed. All new players see is a long slog of losing games, trying to earn enough SP and ISK just to be able to feel like they're really playing.

Tiericide helps with the NPE psychologically because the gap between tiers can be intimidating. If I'm in a standard medium suit and get killed by a proto assault, I have four tiers and seven skill levels between me and the person that killed me in the suit alone. But if I'm just killed by an "assault" suit, all I see is the role. The psychological impact could be significant even if the practical impact is minimal. Remember that a lot of the NPE is about how players feel and not necessarily the reality behind it. That works in both directions.

SUMMARY OF THE ARGUMENT FOR TIERICIDE IN THREE SENTENCES

(Because apparently this is a thing now.)

Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player.

As I said in a post above, yes it will reduce the initial gap between a new guy and a proto guy, but not by much. On top of that, teircide will increase the time it takes for the new guy to become on par with the vet. All of this aside, teircide will take all of the joy about skilling up your suits in this game, and it will generally take away this unique style of gameplay and mechanics that CCP has worked so hard to develop.

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it......

THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS!

This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat.

What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas.

Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE!

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

"Tiericide" would kill many things at the same time, all in the name of making the game "easier" for new players. Thing is, the game would likely not be much easier for them anyway and all these changes would kill the game as we know it now.

No tiers pretty much removes the economy from the game. If all suits are equal they should all cost the same, if they cost the same why bother with isk? Better yet, how to tie the ISK in the game? It would be just a hard cap on the number of times you can die in a match? Would there not be anything to spend lots of it on? Is this what you guys think EVE is like by any stretch?

Or would you make "specializations" the expensive stuff, and if so could you really justify it being more expensive but not more "powerful"?

New players die horribly facing organized squads because they are a random bunch of newberries facing organized squads, not because of the gear.

They would die every bit as horribly if everyone in that match were using proto gear no-stop . Is it really worth changing the whole game over this?

And what would you accomplish with this? Removing pretty much all sense of progression from this game? Some players give up after being stomped, sure. But even if these were to stay, would they stay for long?

The players that stay for long do so because they have a chance to improve their skills, to make connections and learn the game - because they know that their time investment will bear results.

Changing this fundamental aspect of the game so that it become a shallow "balanced" shooter experience will only drive away the players that could stay and stayed so far for the long run and, maybe, keep the superficially interested ones playing for a couple of weeks instead of hours, and then, when they quit, we have nothing.

I'm against this tiericide of yours.

I'm tired of hearing "Tiericed" being screamed across this forum as if it was something that actually made sense .

Understand that "tiericide" is NOT the answer.

If they have the patience to squad up and try and learn the game they have the patience to grind it up. This grind is what define, is what separate one specialist from the other, one player from the other. Take it away and you have nothing but dust.

New players die horribly facing organized squads because they are a random bunch of newberries facing organized squads,

They would die every bit as horribly if everyone in that match were using proto gear no-stop. Ok, maybe they'd actually scored a couple of kills more (that would get revived) and that's it. Is it really worth changing the whole game over this?

And what would you acomplish with this?

I'm tired of hearing "Tiericed" being screamed across this forum as if it was something that actually made sense, there are already a dozen of threads explaining in detail why it doesn't. I think it all boils down to the players frustrated with the NPE. I feel your pain, I really do, but please, please. Understand that "tiericide" is NOT the answer.

You make a valid point, though I feel Cotsy's idea has more merit and will work better than teircide.

Now I can honestly say I have never played EVE, or any the other more popular FPS.

What I can also say is people seem to be over dramatising the basic to proto difference. Trust me, we are branching in to my area of expertise more or less.

For the past eight months of me playing, I have biomassed over 100 different characters that I treated as my main, many of which had over 1 mil sp each. I have once, and only once, ever skilled into an advanced suit. As someone who has been running new player level basic gear for eight months, I know what it is like to be outmatched.

Now my play group includes someone who is in a similar situation to me, except he is sitting around 2.5 mil sp and has an adv suit. There are two other people in my typical group, a very experience player who commonly uses his alt which almost has proto gear, and a new player with 2.5 mil sp aswell. Us four typically do very well, and being outmatched in gear doesn't usually equal losing the game. In fact, it usually takes a full squad of proto or good adv gear with excellent teamwork to actually give us a run for our money.

To summarize, the tier system we have now is actually working pretty well, and tiercide is in no way necessary. In fact, PVE is really the one thing we need and we will be pretty solid when it comes to balance.

As always, Glantix / Snow

More anti-tiericide people poorly explaining why they think tiericide is bad and failing to grasp what it would actually do. Good god I hope this thread gets locked for dumbness soon.

So what you're saying is that the difference between standard and prototype isn't that much, that these don't make much of a difference?
175 CPU
39 PG
3 Highs
3 Lows
Even if it doesn't make much much of difference for some, for most players it does. In opposition of having an SP based matchmaking system, I have these things to say: you even said it yourself that you and other experienced players who use low SP characters can do well against groups of people who have enough SP to use proto, so how can you honestly say that just having more SP makes one a more skilled player and should be used to match players? Lastly, how would adding PVE balance PVP?

I can say pretty much the same for the pro-tiericide people...

Whats that word above the logo for this game on this page?

I am not saying that the difference between proto and standard is small, in fact quite the contrary. I'm saying that the jump towards proto is a large one, so new players can feel like they are closing the gap. I am not saying that we need an sp based matchmaking system, I am saying that an sp based matchmaking system would work better than tiercide. Honestly, I am against both you guys and Cotsy, I thin kthat the system works fine the way it is, to an extent. I feel that adding PVE would give a way for the new players to avoid the vets and slowly make their way towards vet level. Adding PVE would probably have some negative impacts on PVP initially, due to a large influx of players moving towards PVE at the beginning to try it out.

So to sum it up, I don't support anyone but myself, and PVE is the solution.

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide).

But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide).

But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide).

But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide).

Its a free to play game, within the next year we could/should have dropsuit painting as a purchasable cosmetic.

There's already a pilot program for it in EVE, and AFAIK it has been going well, and people have been coughing up dough for it. I can only imagine that CCP will jump on implementing it for Dust as well.

So after a good night's sleep I can finally explain my points better. I have always been horrible at explaining things, so if anyone still needs clarification on something just ask. That being said, let me begin to elaborate and make my counter-points.

1. Right now, once a player gets a proto suit, they can put themselves close to on par with vets with just proto stuff alone.

You cannot tell me that getting a 5% bonus to something decent is more exciting than getting that 5% bonus as well as 1 or 2 more modules, maybe even an equipment. Everyone knows it is pretty boring when you unlock an advanced module, because it is only providing a small benefit and your suit isn't really changing.

Ok, I can tell my argument is failing. You guys have successfully countered almost all of my points. But there is one point I stand by, and it is that reason alone that I believe we should ditch the concept of tiercide.

That feeling of progression is what keeps players in this game. That feeling when you unlock a new weapon and you feel like you can take on the world. That feeling of when you level a suit up from level 2 to level 3, and all of a sudden your options and power increase dramatically. That feeling know you can now equip more modules, and that you are now closer to the vets who's shadows have been cast upon you for so long. That feeling is what keeps this game interesting and alive.

You cannot tell me that getting a 5% bonus to something decent is more exciting than getting that 5% bonus as well as 1 or 2 more modules, maybe even an equipment. Everyone knows it is pretty boring when you unlock an advanced module, because it is only providing a small benefit and your suit isn't really changing.

But it is that feeling of advancement, that sensation of going from standard to advanced, and advanced to prototype, that really make the game not only interesting, but unique.

I know most of my previous arguments didn't make much sense, in fact looking back they don't make much sense to me either. But if you are going to deny that tiercide is going to take a lot of the fun out of this game, then you should go watch paint dry or something, because to people like you anything that should be entertaining too.

Thank you for your time, and thanks for an interesting argument, but this is my closing point.

Sincerely, Glanitx / Snow

["It removes variety and content"]
Tiers are not true variety and content, they're just better versions of the same thing, fulfilling the same roles.

["But I find the feeling of progression fun"]
I am only proposing tiercide for dropsuits. Not modules, not for weapons, and not for equipment; you will still have that feeling of progression for those. While I understand the feeling of progression is addicting, progression can be far too much for a healthy game.
Excessive dropsuit tiers consistently kill more fun in actual gameplay than it provides because it contributes to boring stale one-sided predictable battles.
Dropsuits would still be horizontal dropsuit progression; unlocking more options like specializations that aren't upgrades, but sidegrades.

Ok, I can tell my argument is failing. You guys have successfully countered almost all of my points. But there is one point I stand by, and it is that reason alone that I believe we should ditch the concept of tiercide.

That feeling of progression is what keeps players in this game. That feeling when you unlock a new weapon and you feel like you can take on the world. That feeling of when you level a suit up from level 2 to level 3, and all of a sudden your options and power increase dramatically. That feeling know you can now equip more modules, and that you are now closer to the vets who's shadows have been cast upon you for so long. That feeling is what keeps this game interesting and alive.

You cannot tell me that getting a 5% bonus to something decent is more exciting than getting that 5% bonus as well as 1 or 2 more modules, maybe even an equipment. Everyone knows it is pretty boring when you unlock an advanced module, because it is only providing a small benefit and your suit isn't really changing.

But it is that feeling of advancement, that sensation of going from standard to advanced, and advanced to prototype, that really makes the game not only interesting, but unique.

I know most of my previous arguments didn't make much sense, in fact looking back they don't make much sense to me either. But if you are going to deny that tiercide is going to take a lot of the fun out of this game, then you should go watch paint dry or something, because to people like you anything like that should be entertaining too.

Thank you for your time, and thanks for an interesting argument, but this is my closing point.

Sincerely, Glanitx / Snow

I am not saying that the difference between proto and standard is small, in fact quite the contrary. I'm saying that the jump towards proto is a large one, so new players can feel like they are closing the gap. I am not saying that we need an sp based matchmaking system, I am saying that an sp based matchmaking system would work better than tiercide. Honestly, I am against both you guys and Cotsy, I thin kthat the system works fine the way it is, to an extent. I feel that adding PVE would give a way for the new players to avoid the vets and slowly make their way towards vet level. Adding PVE would probably have some negative impacts on PVP initially, due to a large influx of players moving towards PVE at the beginning to try it out.

So to sum it up, I don't support anyone but myself, and PVE is the solution.

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow