Hey Kage,

You realize that drop suit tiericide will further increase the disparity that CCP should be trying to fix.

You have some good opinions about many other things, but a tiericide system will only further the problem and does little to address matchmaking.

You can't just dismiss it without providing some reasoning. Your statement in isolation makes no sense.

Much as I want tiercide, I am sad to say there are 3 basic reasons it will never happen.

1) the vet community are substantially the largest voice by virtue of the NPE and they also have the largest vested interest in maintaining the status quo

2) CCP are intellectually wedded to the idea that this is somehow an MMO, they would rather double down on the problem than backtrack.

3) it's a **** load of recoding which they do not have the resources for.

It's a great little exercise in theory crafting for those of us who support it but the sad reality is that it just isn't going to happen. The NPE will continue to be toilet, the game will be permanently unbalanced and the actual, larger FPS community will NEVER accept this game.

A tiercidie system is one which limits the grade (mot, std, adv., Proto) of the suit and/or modules allows to be used on said suit.

Th goal is to keep a limit, in theory to limit the disparity between the types of suits on the battlefield. It means that a new player, who has no choice but to use a mlt or std suit won't be matched up against a Proto suit in a match. But due to the current SP system and module boosts you immediately provide the advantage to those which more SP.

Quick example, player A has 3m SP. He enters a std drop suit match, where he can bring std and mlt gear into a match. He lacks anything more than level 1 modules and level 1 weapons and nades. He is playing with the highest possible CPU/PG for equipment, weapons but also has the lowest CPU/PG for his suit. His modules and his weapon do not provide him with any additional stats. He further lacks weapon prof skills (damage, reload, reduction) but his suit is also at a serious disadvantage. His std suit lacks racial bonuses (which matter significantly) and depending on his class (most likely assault as he will be unable to choose scout or heavy) he has no hope when he spawns.

Just think of the advantages given by weapon skills alone and you can see how this system is greatly flawed. Now you add in the CPU/PG disadvantages, the module bonus disadvantages, the equipment disadvantages, the role restrictions, the "specialization" restrictions, the racial bonus removal... These things stack and stack and stack and produce odds which are very difficult to overcome.

The benefit of Tiericide lies not in 'i spent more ISK on a dropsuit so i can stack more'
The benefit is that 'i skilled my Fittings Optimizations and Cores, so i COULD fit a 600/400 HP tank on my Basic medframe, and that i only need to sort my fittings based on their cost, not the suit, followed by cost.

If you read the post it shows tiericide will reinforce the gap its it trying to address.

1. Tiericide doesn't fix the balancing issue in matches, it reinforces the gap between "rich and poor" so to speak via suit, modules, weapon bonuses afforded by SP. By restricting the suit one can wear, you aren't addressing any balancing issue but in fact cement it because even if a suit and outlook is exactly the same, the higher SP will win very gun battle given the same skill level due to his inherent bonuses.

2. By dividing matches into suits, it will take longer to find matches and it will lead to more pros vs joes, as the pros will just select the std suit type matches and tear the players up you should be trying to protect. But a suit tier system doesn't protect them, it highlights them which leads to abuse, stomps, unbalanced matches.

3. No AUR incentives, no reason to chase the next level when levels are limited.

4. Exploitation. Suit levels doesn't limit or balance greater than SP does. If you are limiting suits, skill will shine but experience and bonuses will shine more, so it doesn't help New Player A. It again, keeps the new player down and at a disadvantage.

If you read the post it shows tiericide will reinforce the gap its it trying to address.

1. Tiericide doesn't fix the balancing issue in matches, it reinforces the gap between "rich and poor" so to speak via suit, modules, weapon bonuses afforded by SP. By restricting the suit one can wear, you aren't addressing any balancing issue but in fact cement it because even if a suit and outlook is exactly the same, the higher SP will win very gun battle given the same skill level due to his inherent bonuses.

I clearly show this 3 times, by addressing issues in roles (min scouts + cloaking), heavies (very hard to skill into sentinels early, and racial/weapon bonuses providing massive advantages. So Player A spawns and is at a disadvantage every time. Like I said, most people early on are restricted to assault or Logi because heavies and scouts are not realistic and not usable early on. So you have Player A, limited, without bonuses, without specialization and role optimization, without suit or weapon optimization so you have reinforced disparity.

Go make a alt, grab a level 1 weapon like the CR or RR, things people really spec into, and see if you see a massive difference. Now add 15% damage vs armor to a gun vs a std suit! one weapon is going to eat the suit while the other one will not. Now consider the difference between a std assault with no SP boosts against a sent with all its boosts. You gonna say, just not have sentinels allowed? Gonna say since scouts are really able to use cloaks early that experience scouts can't use them too? You going to say let's limit suits and guns to std but disregard the proficiency to damage, recoil/accuracy, PG reduction, rapid reload, etc..

2. By dividing matches into suits, it will take longer to find matches and it will lead to more pros vs joes, as the pros will just select the std suit type matches and tear the players up you should be trying to protect. But a suit tier system doesn't protect them, it highlights them which leads to abuse, stomps, unbalanced matches.

3. No AUR incentives, no reason to chase the next level when levels are limited.

4. Exploitation. Suit levels doesn't limit or balance greater than SP does. If you are limiting suits, skill will shine but experience and bonuses will shine more, so it doesn't help New Player A. It again, keeps the new player down and at a disadvantage.

5. Try taking down vehicles. You can't remove vehicles, they are of major importance to the game providing roles, more diversity, more options to the same old mundane infantry vs infantry which is tiresome, they are a positive to the game not a negative. You can't just go around limiting everything, removing everything, making useless rules on everything because no1 will want to play. Options are a positive and limiting suits doesn't provide balance it provides needless limits to a game that cant afford to turn more players off.

Like i said, if you wanted to talk about weapons, or more issues i can name a few more. The idea isn't to limit, rather to keep matches balanced and not keep the same old gap between rich and poor.

Hey Kage,

You realize that drop suit tiericide will further increase the disparity that CCP should be trying to fix.

You have some good opinions about many other things, but a tiericide system will only further the problem and does little to address matchmaking.

If you, the community, want a solution I suggest a balanced matchmaking system based on SP + skill (a score based on WP averages). I have outlined it a few times but it seems a reasonable solution designed to solve not only NPE but designed to ensure both teams have as close to equal chance at winning every battle, be able to kill any opponent - it would also take the scoring of top 3 players in a squad, to prevent any sort of system abuse, something tiericide will greatly have.

Make my standard BPO gear have miltia grade stuff? Hell no.

4. I pointed out major issues with tiericide, i think the idea is garbage. I don't think any player should have a massive advantage over another, the more you balance the game upon skill the better. Making suit tier restrictions will limit the game greatly. SKILL SHOULD BE THE ADVANTAGE, not whether or not you have more SP and SP related advantages.

Can I add:

Fully decked out bonuses on the Amarr Std Sentinel, even with std armor and shield extenders is going to be 1411 eHP.

With racial bonuses to the Amarr, you really think anything but a standard RE is going to take it down?

You think some scout, who doesn't have the SP to use a cloak is going to get the jump on him? Scout will be 100% visible, it's very hard to equip a 10-11 PG kin cat on a scout to get it mobility. Its 170 eHP basic std frame is going to get chewed alive. Can't really equip a cloak until its CPU/PG reduction skill makes it viable around 6-7m SP.

You think the std assault or Logi is going to take it down, it's not sensible to pick a Sent or Scout early, so you will most likely see assault suits using std rifles with no damage boosts. Yea, this tiericide is a great idea.

It really makes the gap close. Lmao.
How is tiericide a better solution than skill + SP matchmaking system?! It's just a ploy by the dumb, or elite, to trick you into wanting a system in which they will exploit. They will know exactly where to find the weak, they will continue to do what they are doing now, stomping those that a matchmaking system should be keeping separated. Tiericide doesn't separate these people, it highlights where they will be.

Let me give you two scenarios and you tell me which scenario has a larger power differential between two players.

Scenario 1:
New player in a standard logi suit with a full set of standard mods, weapon, and equipment against a fully core skilled player wearing a proto logi suit with a full suite of complex modules, full passives on those modules, a proto weapon, and a mix of adv and proto equipment.

vs

Scenario 2:
New player in a proto suit with a full suite of standard modules, weapon, and equipment and against that same prototype player.

Considering logi suits already have a suit bonus, the bonus differential remains the same. 1 level of 'racial' logi bonus vs the full 5 levels of 'racial' logi bonus.

In which case is the new player at a larger disadvantage compared to the veteran player in a 1v1?

Heres how it would work, as I imagine it:

Take the unbonused frame suits (light med and heavy) and keep the ADV as the new militia variants, none of which would require SP. The pro, you get to try out these suits, but they dont specialized, dont get any kind of bonus. basically, they are there for you to try out, find your playstyle before you commit SP.

Now, regular suits. All suits are to be replaced by their Proto equivilent. Example:

To unlock a minmatar Logi suit, you need to invest first in the Minmatar Dropsuit skill (this replaces the min light, med and heavy suit skills, SP sinks as they are). Different tiers of this skill unlock the different types of suit, similarly to todays dropsuit command skill, which I would remove. 1=Assault, 3=Scout,pilot, 5= sentinel, etc.

Minmatar Dropsuits 3 > Minmatar Logistics 1 = todays proto min logi.

Now, this suit will not be at its full potential, but you have the same amount of slots as everyone else and fitting. But, with the skill at just 1, you wont be as powerful, but you will be close. As you add more SP to the suit skill it gets better.

Caldari Dropsuits 5 > Caldari Commando 1 = todays proto Calcommando.

etc

TL;DR: all suits are now protosuits, SP just makes them better thru bonuses, nearly equalizing suits thru fitting, and not relying on "content = variety"

This is what I've been saying. It doesnt close the gap totally, but it does make it alot better for new players. It'll at the very least put them in a position where if they have better gun game, they will come out on top, not where they get stomped because they only have 50% HP than those proto players. WHY DONT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS??!?!? I'm beginning to think people are against tiericide because they want to continue to be able to farm new players for their KDRs.

As a vet who only runs STD or sometimes ADV, I relish /loathe the idea of having an inexpensive basic suit with lots of slots to maximally leverage my fully completed Dropsuit Upgrades tab.

I suppose the downside is that under tiericide, i will have no choice but to be a protstomping d!ckhead.

I wonder how many other vets feel the same way.