Hey Kage,

You realize that drop suit tiericide will further increase the disparity that CCP should be trying to fix.

You have some good opinions about many other things, but a tiericide system will only further the problem and does little to address matchmaking.

If you, the community, want a solution I suggest a balanced matchmaking system based on SP + skill (a score based on WP averages). I have outlined it a few times but it seems a reasonable solution designed to solve not only NPE but designed to ensure both teams have as close to equal chance at winning every battle, be able to kill any opponent - it would also take the scoring of top 3 players in a squad, to prevent any sort of system abuse, something tiericide will greatly have.

Make my standard BPO gear have miltia grade stuff? Hell no.

Can I add:

Fully decked out bonuses on the Amarr Std Sentinel, even with std armor and shield extenders is going to be 1411 eHP.

With racial bonuses to the Amarr, you really think anything but a standard RE is going to take it down?

You think some scout, who doesn't have the SP to use a cloak is going to get the jump on him? Scout will be 100% visible, it's very hard to equip a 10-11 PG kin cat on a scout to get it mobility. Its 170 eHP basic std frame is going to get chewed alive. Can't really equip a cloak until its CPU/PG reduction skill makes it viable around 6-7m SP.

You think the std assault or Logi is going to take it down, it's not sensible to pick a Sent or Scout early, so you will most likely see assault suits using std rifles with no damage boosts. Yea, this tiericide is a great idea.

It really makes the gap close. Lmao.
How is tiericide a better solution than skill + SP matchmaking system?! It's just a ploy by the dumb, or elite, to trick you into wanting a system in which they will exploit. They will know exactly where to find the weak, they will continue to do what they are doing now, stomping those that a matchmaking system should be keeping separated. Tiericide doesn't separate these people, it highlights where they will be.

Let me give you two scenarios and you tell me which scenario has a larger power differential between two players.

Scenario 1:
New player in a standard logi suit with a full set of standard mods, weapon, and equipment against a fully core skilled player wearing a proto logi suit with a full suite of complex modules, full passives on those modules, a proto weapon, and a mix of adv and proto equipment.

vs

Scenario 2:
New player in a proto suit with a full suite of standard modules, weapon, and equipment and against that same prototype player.

Considering logi suits already have a suit bonus, the bonus differential remains the same. 1 level of 'racial' logi bonus vs the full 5 levels of 'racial' logi bonus.

In which case is the new player at a larger disadvantage compared to the veteran player in a 1v1?

Heres how it would work, as I imagine it:

Take the unbonused frame suits (light med and heavy) and keep the ADV as the new militia variants, none of which would require SP. The pro, you get to try out these suits, but they dont specialized, dont get any kind of bonus. basically, they are there for you to try out, find your playstyle before you commit SP.

Now, regular suits. All suits are to be replaced by their Proto equivilent. Example:

To unlock a minmatar Logi suit, you need to invest first in the Minmatar Dropsuit skill (this replaces the min light, med and heavy suit skills, SP sinks as they are). Different tiers of this skill unlock the different types of suit, similarly to todays dropsuit command skill, which I would remove. 1=Assault, 3=Scout,pilot, 5= sentinel, etc.

Minmatar Dropsuits 3 > Minmatar Logistics 1 = todays proto min logi.

Now, this suit will not be at its full potential, but you have the same amount of slots as everyone else and fitting. But, with the skill at just 1, you wont be as powerful, but you will be close. As you add more SP to the suit skill it gets better.

Caldari Dropsuits 5 > Caldari Commando 1 = todays proto Calcommando.

etc

TL;DR: all suits are now protosuits, SP just makes them better thru bonuses, nearly equalizing suits thru fitting, and not relying on "content = variety"

As I said in a post above, yes it will reduce the initial gap between a new guy and a proto guy, but not by much. On top of that, teircide will increase the time it takes for the new guy to become on par with the vet. All of this aside, teircide will take all of the joy about skilling up your suits in this game, and it will generally take away this unique style of gameplay and mechanics that CCP has worked so hard to develop.

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it......

THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS!

This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat.

What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas.

Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE!

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

I looked at it, the lower end of the tiers will be cookie cutter builds, no diversity. In wolf's argument thread, i tore his ideas upset and so did a few others in the thread and in following threads. Just because wolf says it will provide more diversity doesn't mean it does, he didn't provide any good argument but at least he understands there is a problem. He recognizes a problem and uses a few buzz words to get everyone excited, but he failed to argue against how vets won't have great advantage in such a system and he failed to demonstrate how scouts and sentinels would be viable option without major changes to the current game and skill tree.

Look, i showed you that it is not reasonable to use a scout or sentinel in std (and ofc mlt) type tiers. So, how could someone argue it will diversify when you eliminate the two more diverse roles?! He wants suits which are more specific, there's nothing specific about what you will see at lower end of the tiers. I showed scout, sentinel stats and its clear at lower levels the game will look like your first 2 battle academy matches in terms of suit + gear but will end up looking like those 2-3 players who have teams and have tanks in the battle academy somehow. A few will exploit, the NPE will continue to kill game growth, and vets will leave, CCP will leave money and this will be a failure.

The point is that better things should cost more ISK. Not sure, but thats the point. The better something is, the more expensive it is. Maybe you don't think 100k is worth the disparity that 1 extra mod provides you. Not really sure, but the economy of dust is built around ISK being not so easy to come by and making players feel the hurt for losing many Proto suits in a battle. Now, players throw billions at their suits and ISK is only relevant for lesser players.


Seem to be under impression present issues don't exists?! Not sure if you're tired too, but I've been arguing for a balanced matchmaking process for months. One based on skill which accounts for SP advantages, keep advantages marginal.

Keep the elite away from those who cannot compete with them. Whether that be due to skill or SP, you need to keep vets away from the noobs until they are ready to compete. Not provide vets with the opportunity for easy picking by joining a skirmish match with std suit ceiling and going to town.


He has a good idea, he wants balance. He seems the next tier of suit being +1, while it's not equal, it is better. But this is primarily due to SP advantages (there is no skill, you take skill as an equal). Two guys same suit, one has the bonuses and mods advantages and one does not. They both spawn, player will also have the advantage and given all brings equal one will always win and be better than the other. That's not balance, thats a cemented advantage for one player over another, whereby the better SP player can seek and find the lesser player. Now because their are limited role and possibilities for the lesser player, this ad range becomes even more prominent when you consider one can use two classes more and most importantly one can use the most OP thing in the game, the cloak, and one cannot.

This is an insane disparity, just crazy, that someone would think this would be an acceptable solution. It only reinforces the current problem and extends the advantage because it limits one player so significantly he is unable to realistically overcome the advantages, has no ability to adapt, has no real ability to get out of a cookie cutter build.

Like i said, imagine a fully skilled std cal scout or std Amarr sentinel just running wild. Anyone with SP dumped into precision and range would see everything, anyone with SP dumped into a weapon would tear apart his novice counterpart. Reduction in weapon spread, damage vs armor/shields, rapid reload, PG reduction these alone provide significant advantages. Racial bonuses, please, massive advantages.

This tiercide system isn't an answer, its a banana peel. It's just another case of what we have now, vets owning noobs and not due to skill but strictly due to SP advantages.

But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide).

There's already a pilot program for it in EVE, and AFAIK it has been going well, and people have been coughing up dough for it. I can only imagine that CCP will jump on implementing it for Dust as well.