DUST Search - In defense of tiercide

True Adamance wrote:

Yoma Carrim wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value?

Hmmm think of it this way Suit with 5x basic shield extenders and a STD rail rifle pack less punch than a suit with 5x complex shield extender with a Kaalakata Rail rifle.

A complex Armor reper reps faster than a MLT armor reper

They would have the same slot layout but You would have the better modules and weapons.

That still fundamentally means I am better than him because I have ISK and SP........ I guess its not a great in terms of difference......but at that point I see no reason to invest SP and ISK into a build if I received no visible benefits over a lesser build.

My point is why did MLY HAV sales increase five fold and why are those sales numbers as static as they are?

Because MLT HAV are so close in module efficiencies and frame value that there is no real reason to use better since you can achieve the same level of effectiveness with a tank valued at 1/2 the price......

All that means to me, and please by all means try to persuade me, that a new player with less than a quarter of the time and 1/2 the ISK invested is functionally on par with me...... bad or good, what was the point of me putting in effort to develop my tank?


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Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1596	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:46:00 - [1] - Quote Personally i love this idea. In Warframe, there's no 'tiers' except for your modules. There is no 'Ember 1/2/3' Sure. There IS a Ember Prime, with changed stats and are generally considered improvements, but they almost always have a downgraded stat. Run my Assault fitting, gaining bonuses(and raising the ISK cost of the suit) or run my generalized Medium Frame(which could cost a fraction of the Assault.) General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1599	Posted - 2014.05.01 00:14:00 - [2] - Quote The benefit of Tiericide lies not in 'i spent more ISK on a dropsuit so i can stack more' The benefit is that 'i skilled my Fittings Optimizations and Cores, so i COULD fit a 600/400 HP tank on my Basic medframe, and that i only need to sort my fittings based on their cost, not the suit, followed by cost. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1599	Posted - 2014.05.01 00:16:00 - [3] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Yoma Carrim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value? Hmmm think of it this way Suit with 5x basic shield extenders and a STD rail rifle pack less punch than a suit with 5x complex shield extender with a Kaalakata Rail rifle. A complex Armor reper reps faster than a MLT armor reper They would have the same slot layout but You would have the better modules and weapons. That still fundamentally means I am better than him because I have ISK and SP........ I guess its not a great in terms of difference......but at that point I see no reason to invest SP and ISK into a build if I received no visible benefits over a lesser build. My point is why did MLY HAV sales increase five fold and why are those sales numbers as static as they are? Because MLT HAV are so close in module efficiencies and frame value that there is no real reason to use better since you can achieve the same level of effectiveness with a tank valued at 1/2 the price...... All that means to me, and please by all means try to persuade me, that a new player with less than a quarter of the time and 1/2 the ISK invested is functionally on par with me...... bad or good, what was the point of me putting in effort to develop my tank? You have dropsuit shield/armor upgrades. You have Biotics 5. You have Engineering/Cpu 5. You can fit much more than him. Even while running the same fitting, you have 25% more HP, 5% more sprint, 15% reload speed, 25% ammo, you have suit bonuses. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1600	Posted - 2014.05.01 00:32:00 - [4] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: The benefit of Tiericide lies not in 'i spent more ISK on a dropsuit so i can stack more' The benefit is that 'i skilled my Fittings Optimizations and Cores, so i COULD fit a 600/400 HP tank on my Basic medframe, and that i only need to sort my fittings based on their cost, not the suit, followed by cost. SO More SP = Better performance as opposed to More ISK and SP= Better performance. You still gain advantage by spending more isk i.e modules. The difference is a bit difficult to understand, but instead of fitting a proto gun AND better modules AND more of them, you lose 1 of those advantages(more modules) If modules were to become tiericided as well(all shield extenders give 66 HP, but Basic extenders gave a 15% depleted delay penalty, while Complex gave 5%, you don't gain any IMMEDIATE advantages, however across multiple battles you gain benefit.(off topic) Also possible is Tiericiding weaponry, such that skilling up the weapon's operation grants access to harder hitting/longer ranged variants. I.e. A Stabikized Assault Rifle, loses 2% damage, but gains 15% range. The Compressed variant would lose about 5m range, but gain 10% damage. Militia players get the 'basic' AR. While heavier specced players gain benefits from their reload skills, their prooficiency, their variants.(again, off topic but relevant) The first step to this is dropsuits. If we don't like how the disparity is (i.e. Too little gain from investment/too much gain in spending ISK) then we just go back the next month. Like any ither MMO, we can only go forward. In Eve and many other Tactics PvP games, there are ways a Player who isn't maxed can contribute to professional games. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1603	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:34:00 - [5] - Quote I'm guessing i'll have to type out a .xpl on how far apart a 30 mill SP fitting is from a Mlt noob, and then make another for the difference post-tiericide. The thing is though, it's obvious to people with brains. 'Militia' Minmatar Medium frame: 3 highs, 2 lows. Same fitting as now. Cost 300 Isk. 'Basic' minmatar medium frame: Gains moderate fitting, along with access to racial defense bonus(example: +5% to shield extender efficacy per level) 4/3 slot layout, same fitting as Mk.0 current. 20k Isk. 'Basic' assault m-1 4/3 slot layout Gains additional bonus for offense, as well as role fitting bonus. Cost 90k ISK. Same fitting as base medframe. Possibly reduced in conjuntion with fitting reduction. (This is off topic, but is relevant) Combat rifle: same as current advanced tier weapon. Cost: 1000 Isk. 'Compressed' or 'scattermind' Combat rifle: Gains +10% damage, loses 5% roF, loses 5% range. Cost 34k Isk. 'Tech II combat rifle': Only obtainable through purchase, unlocks at level 5 operation. Has +10% dmg, +5% range, fitting is reduced. Estimated market cost: 200-300k per gun. 'Gastun's mln-9 Combat Rifle': Usable by Proficiency 3 operators. -10% Dmg, +20% RoF, clipsize +15%, range + 10% Salvage only by killing top tier drones Estimated market price: 3-4 million per weapon. 'Deadspace' Combat rifle: Completely off kilter weapon stats, either has +30% dps at cost of 75% clipsize or gains +100% range at cost of 30% dps. Only obtainable via high class station raids, may take weeks of non-stop fighting to obtain. Average market price: 3-4 BILLION per. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!