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Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 18	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:04:00 - [1] - Quote Hey Kage, You realize that drop suit tiericide will further increase the disparity that CCP should be trying to fix. You have some good opinions about many other things, but a tiericide system will only further the problem and does little to address matchmaking. If you, the community, want a solution I suggest a balanced matchmaking system based on SP + skill (a score based on WP averages). I have outlined it a few times but it seems a reasonable solution designed to solve not only NPE but designed to ensure both teams have as close to equal chance at winning every battle, be able to kill any opponent - it would also take the scoring of top 3 players in a squad, to prevent any sort of system abuse, something tiericide will greatly have.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 18	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:08:00 - [2] - Quote Feel free if you want me to highlight the many flaws associated with a tiericide system, or if you want i can outline my SP + Skill system and we can talk about ways to improve it and maybe get it to a point where you would feel comfortable recommending it. Let me know, I've been saying for 5 months that matchmaking is the most serious issue with dust and would like it addressed before any new equipment, vehicles etc are introduced.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 18	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:01:00 - [3] - Quote A tiercidie system is one which limits the grade (mot, std, adv., Proto) of the suit and/or modules allows to be used on said suit. Th goal is to keep a limit, in theory to limit the disparity between the types of suits on the battlefield. It means that a new player, who has no choice but to use a mlt or std suit won't be matched up against a Proto suit in a match. But due to the current SP system and module boosts you immediately provide the advantage to those which more SP. Quick example, player A has 3m SP. He enters a std drop suit match, where he can bring std and mlt gear into a match. He lacks anything more than level 1 modules and level 1 weapons and nades. He is playing with the highest possible CPU/PG for equipment, weapons but also has the lowest CPU/PG for his suit. His modules and his weapon do not provide him with any additional stats. He further lacks weapon prof skills (damage, reload, reduction) but his suit is also at a serious disadvantage. His std suit lacks racial bonuses (which matter significantly) and depending on his class (most likely assault as he will be unable to choose scout or heavy) he has no hope when he spawns. Haha, in truth he has little option of which suit he can choose, he is unable to pick the scout class and equip a cloak or even use std kin or card cats. He is unable to really use heavies due to SP required, if say, he wanted to use a sent + HMG, it's not realistic. So he is basically stuck with mlt or std armor and shields, which are again, at the lowest % in skill bonuses, so they are nearly a flat boost to a flat suit! to a specific suit (90% its gonna be assault, let's face it). He is unable to "specialize" as one previously mentioned, he is unable to be on par with his competition and its regardless of skill, its due to SP. If you really wanted to highlight the disparity, grab say a std min scout. Try to put a cloak on it when your SP handicaps you so severely that you haven't got a chance. Little chance of using a cloak, you are 100% visible on radar because you cannot get scan profile down (even as a Gal), which creates issues on top of issues. Now, you will say how do you know this, or at least his competition doesn't have 1500 eHP. I run a 3.5m SP min scout, so i know the difficulties of even equipping it with a very std module oriented set up. Now this tiericide model inevitably takes out 2 if not 3 of the 5 classes, it also removes this role playing that is the only real strength of the game. If you wanted everyone to run around as if they were in the first battle academy then clearly the game wouldn't be played at all. Furthermore, that "new player" could potentially enter a match with a std heavy, let's use the Amarr sentinel outfit as an example. A nice 1100eHP, able to use a std heavy machine gun with std mods but is still the massive discrepancy exists. It actually doesn't solve anything, but in fact hurts the "new player" more than the more experience player entering such a game mode. This example shows that the "gap" the community is trying to close in fact widens under a suit restriction system. We can also discuss, how restrictive these modes are to "specialization" or specific roles, it forces the lower player into a terrible, cookie cutter, disadvantageous position he is in now. Sure he doesn't see a 1600 eHP Proto sentinel but that doesn't mean its the best option. You and many others see tiericide as a way to get mot and std gesr users away from Proto users and there are better systems to do so which do not create such a disparity based on module and SP bonuses. Just think of the advantages given by weapon skills alone and you can see how this system is greatly flawed. Now you add in the CPU/PG disadvantages, the module bonus disadvantages, the equipment disadvantages, the role restrictions, the "specialization" restrictions, the racial bonus removal... These things stack and stack and stack and produce odds which are very difficult to overcome. Are these problems less than we have now, when a New Player A enters match vs. stacked NS skill-type squads.. Of course not. But that doesn't mean its the solution, it causes far too many problems, creates a situation where Player A still spawns at a disadvantage, he still spawns (even if using the exact same gear) and will lose every gun battle (if skill level is similar). So it doesn't address much. I can go into other things, like vehicle issues (but most say to get rid of vehicles, which would be a mistake because they offer a lot... Do vehicles need to be tweaked yes, but thats a different conversation). I can go into how tiericide would kill the AUR market, would also kill the ISK market.. I can go into how the system can be greatly abused or how players will always be at the mercy of squads. Or even how Player A will be useless again even being able to adapt in a battle (maybe need some AV, hacking, area denial, defending a point etc..) or how tiericide model will in fact make these Proto stompers just turn into std gear stompers and you encounter the same problem again. How about the wait for game times, very high, try finding 1 of 4 modes now divided into another 1/4 suit tiers. How about the sheer fact that any game which restricts its players, wont have those players for long, people dont want to be restricted, they want freedom of choice, freedom of role etc... There are many things, i choose to use a basic example to highlight the problems. I hope it was enough. Again, the argument is no to separate std from Proto users, the argument and problem is match balance. Making matches fair, competitive, even from the beginning, and exciting cause anyone can win.. This is what creates intrigue and excitement and interest. This is what keeps players playing. I have a viable solution that will address these issues. If you want to discuss my suggestion I can show you how my system solves the issues that you think tiericide does.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 18	Posted - 2014.05.01 02:06:00 - [4] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Much as I want tiercide, I am sad to say there are 3 basic reasons it will never happen. 1) the vet community are substantially the largest voice by virtue of the NPE and they also have the largest vested interest in maintaining the status quo 2) CCP are intellectually wedded to the idea that this is somehow an MMO, they would rather double down on the problem than backtrack. 3) it's a **** load of recoding which they do not have the resources for. It's a great little exercise in theory crafting for those of us who support it but the sad reality is that it just isn't going to happen. The NPE will continue to be toilet, the game will be permanently unbalanced and the actual, larger FPS community will NEVER accept this game. 1. Tiericide doesn't prevent the bet community from doing what they are doing now to rookies or new players. It just provides them a better chance to select a match where as to encounter these types of players, say enter a std suit match with restrictions that only std mods can be used. Boom, version 2.0 of stomping, say problem people will leave. 2. They want the game to succeed, there 21m $$ losses show that they are willing to take serious risks for their games to work. The problem is the vet community doesnt want to play against each other in fair, balanced matches. So they make excuses, leave battle, or go to forum to get their way. Matches should be,axe based on SP early, then SP + skill at a later point. 3. A matchmaking system is not a shitload of coding, and if they want the game to succeed they will address the matchmaking system to ensure its balanced and fair, or they will see a donut effect of players... All vets, no rookies, very few advanced players. Terrible stuff.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 22	Posted - 2014.05.01 03:11:00 - [5] - Quote If you read the post it shows tiericide will reinforce the gap its it trying to address. 1. Tiericide doesn't fix the balancing issue in matches, it reinforces the gap between "rich and poor" so to speak via suit, modules, weapon bonuses afforded by SP. By restricting the suit one can wear, you aren't addressing any balancing issue but in fact cement it because even if a suit and outlook is exactly the same, the higher SP will win very gun battle given the same skill level due to his inherent bonuses. I clearly show this 3 times, by addressing issues in roles (min scouts + cloaking), heavies (very hard to skill into sentinels early, and racial/weapon bonuses providing massive advantages. So Player A spawns and is at a disadvantage every time. Like I said, most people early on are restricted to assault or Logi because heavies and scouts are not realistic and not usable early on. So you have Player A, limited, without bonuses, without specialization and role optimization, without suit or weapon optimization so you have reinforced disparity. Go make a alt, grab a level 1 weapon like the CR or RR, things people really spec into, and see if you see a massive difference. Now add 15% damage vs armor to a gun vs a std suit! one weapon is going to eat the suit while the other one will not. Now consider the difference between a std assault with no SP boosts against a sent with all its boosts. You gonna say, just not have sentinels allowed? Gonna say since scouts are really able to use cloaks early that experience scouts can't use them too? You going to say let's limit suits and guns to std but disregard the proficiency to damage, recoil/accuracy, PG reduction, rapid reload, etc.. 2. By dividing matches into suits, it will take longer to find matches and it will lead to more pros vs joes, as the pros will just select the std suit type matches and tear the players up you should be trying to protect. But a suit tier system doesn't protect them, it highlights them which leads to abuse, stomps, unbalanced matches. 3. No AUR incentives, no reason to chase the next level when levels are limited. 4. Exploitation. Suit levels doesn't limit or balance greater than SP does. If you are limiting suits, skill will shine but experience and bonuses will shine more, so it doesn't help New Player A. It again, keeps the new player down and at a disadvantage. 5. Try taking down vehicles. You can't remove vehicles, they are of major importance to the game providing roles, more diversity, more options to the same old mundane infantry vs infantry which is tiresome, they are a positive to the game not a negative. You can't just go around limiting everything, removing everything, making useless rules on everything because no1 will want to play. Options are a positive and limiting suits doesn't provide balance it provides needless limits to a game that cant afford to turn more players off. Like i said, if you wanted to talk about weapons, or more issues i can name a few more. The idea isn't to limit, rather to keep matches balanced and not keep the same old gap between rich and poor.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 24	Posted - 2014.05.01 03:56:00 - [6] - Quote 1. Tiericide model does not take into account skill, it takes into account suit tier. If you wanted a fair balanced matchmaking system based on skill, that would be a different, and better, solution. It does not lessen the gap, it reinforces the gap inside a tier system. If you had a system based on skill, it would lessen the gap considerably. But you have skill confused with balance, skill isn't to be applied before, it is to be applied after. Dividing based on suits then saying we don't care how balanced the matches are as long as they are wearing the same suit, you completely disregard bonuses and skill in the equation. Like i demonstrated in the scout suit, in the heavy suit, these are not balanced at lower levels. Like i showed, the bonuses create massive advantages, advantages you want to avoid. Look, if two players choose the same suit and one player based on bonuses is able to hold an advantage over his opponent at the start of the match, then that isn't balanced. The only thing equal is the base stats on your assault or Logi std suit. That isn't balance, that a false resemblance of balance. There's nothing balanced about it, there's nothing better about a tier suit restrictive system then a skill balanced system, as you said, and i am arguing. 2. Suit based matches is what I am arguing against, its rip for imbalance and exploitation. You know exactly where the players who are vulnerable are, and you can easily seek them out and turn them off to the game. Therefore killing your game by not getting new blood or new potential income. 3. AUR system works well now, players use AUR to get the boost them need to get to the next level without the SP. Why would AUR give such massive advantages? AUR system now is good in theory, but the matchmaking and game dynamics are hindering (and IMO the LP system) it. 4. I pointed out major issues with tiericide, i think the idea is garbage. I don't think any player should have a massive advantage over another, the more you balance the game upon skill the better. Making suit tier restrictions will limit the game greatly. SKILL SHOULD BE THE ADVANTAGE, not whether or not you have more SP and SP related advantages. PvE is a joke, it really is. There is nothing PvE can provide than a balanced matchmaking system cannot. PvE is a waste of time, time that should be out into fixing core FPS mechanics, frame rate/connection/graphics issues, maps etc... Modes and maps,are needed, but PvE should be scrapped. Matching up based on skill is balanced, wanting to wreck npc's isn't fun, there are so so many major issues with PvE and AI that its a waste of time and resources.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 25	Posted - 2014.05.01 04:08:00 - [7] - Quote Can I add: Fully decked out bonuses on the Amarr Std Sentinel, even with std armor and shield extenders is going to be 1411 eHP. With racial bonuses to the Amarr, you really think anything but a standard RE is going to take it down? You think some scout, who doesn't have the SP to use a cloak is going to get the jump on him? Scout will be 100% visible, it's very hard to equip a 10-11 PG kin cat on a scout to get it mobility. Its 170 eHP basic std frame is going to get chewed alive. Can't really equip a cloak until its CPU/PG reduction skill makes it viable around 6-7m SP. You think the std assault or Logi is going to take it down, it's not sensible to pick a Sent or Scout early, so you will most likely see assault suits using std rifles with no damage boosts. Yea, this tiericide is a great idea. It really makes the gap close. Lmao. How is tiericide a better solution than skill + SP matchmaking system?! It's just a ploy by the dumb, or elite, to trick you into wanting a system in which they will exploit. They will know exactly where to find the weak, they will continue to do what they are doing now, stomping those that a matchmaking system should be keeping separated. Tiericide doesn't separate these people, it highlights where they will be.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.05.01 04:54:00 - [8] - Quote Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE. There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe. Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded. The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix. 2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue. 5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses. Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces. WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system. What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.05.01 05:11:00 - [9] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: As a vet who only runs STD or sometimes ADV, I relish /loathe the idea of having an inexpensive basic suit with lots of slots to maximally leverage my fully completed Dropsuit Upgrades tab. I suppose the downside is that under tiericide, i will have no choice but to be a protstomping d!ckhead. I wonder how many other vets feel the same way. You could run a suit with a full suite of standard modules and, at best, only have the armor and shield upgrades passive bonus vs a brand new player. That player can get armor and shield upgrades to 3 in 1-2 weeks, catching up 60% of that differential. That fit with full std modules would be fairly close in price to what you run now too. I don't see the problem. A system like this would also give me incentive to pick other suits up without having to take them to 5 first. If I wanted to run Logi mk.0 vs my current proto logi ak.0, I NEED to get that suit to proto before it is, in any way, better than my current fit. I literally have no reason to run another logi suit until that suit is level 5 and proto before its worth using for me. My ak.0 is superior to any adv logi suit of another race. I just cant justify waiting for 8+ weeks to casually gain 2.5 million SP just to run another suit situationally. and no, isk is not a factor to me. I have hundreds of millions of isk from chromosome and I can stay isk positive running proto constantly. 1. Dust 514 is a waiting game. Being impatient is how CCP makes money, you want something and can't get it so you buy AUR. Thats how CCP makes money. I've played 2 years and got 20m SP. Yea, its a slow pace game. 2. There is little reason to get another Logi suit, really the only one is required. Better to max equipment than to get a second suit if you wanted better times/output on your equipment. Diversify, get a scout, maybe get ads, have fun. 3. The current ISK situation is a problem, players have millions to billions and are constantly gaining more from a broken system, but say if you were matched against similar skilled players, and the ISK situation (which you exploited) was as intended, then running Proto gear wouldn't be an unlimited thing. It would be selective and a ISK dependant thing, like it was suppose to be. You can't argue that because you exploited the ISK system that its broken completely, if it was as intended then Proto stompers would be matched against Proto stompers and not in situations whereby proto stompers are matched up against noobs and are not at risk of losing their 250k suits.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.05.01 05:31:00 - [10] - Quote To Glantix, I'll try and add to my thoughts, Why is tiericide being talked about?; CCP is supposedly looking at how to improve the game, and it has been suggested that addressing matchmaking will be looked at. Judging by CCP's response in EVE to imbalance, one can see they are more likely to use a tiericide model again. There have been a few posts by a CM, in which the topic was introduced and blindly supported. To which, a few others blindly supported the system, without knowing what it was. So a few more people made topics, explaining that it is a system in which a ceiling on gear (suits, weapons, mods) is made to attempt to fix the disparity between vet and novice players. A few, including myself, have pointed out that tiericide is not the best solution, and tiericide would only continue to reinforce to disparity we are currently dealing with. Currently: I am not saying that our current system is working, no one is. People are simply showing the massive flaws in logic, the lack of supporting evidence and the major issues associated with a tier gear based system. It will keep the elite at the top, it will allow them to highlight and easily find these novice targets, and tiericide does little to expand the game. In fact at lower levels the game is very restrictive, scouts and heavies are not seen and are not realistic options. Even inside your class, it is hard to be diverse when seeking to expand your role. Normally, (i only have one) players have 1 suit (normally assault) early so youre going to have the same 4 suits with the same basic armor plates on all builds. It's boring and harmful. What should be done?: There is no balanced in a tier based system, there is only balance along skill. Okay, tiericide is not the answer but neither is our current matchmaking system which can match my 500k SP character against a NS q-synced squad (it has before). So what is to be done, i suggest a two sided system. One based on SP and one based on a skill score (SP+WP), with the added point that in a squad only the three tops skill scores are used to determine opponents (prevents abuse of system). My suggestion: SP hard phase: 0-4m SP will be the battle academy. 5-9m SP will be the beginner phase. Intro to Skill Based phase: 10-14m SP will be the advanced phase. 15-19 SP will be the advanced-2 phase. 20-26m+ SP will be the veteran phase. I have details, of course i do, about each class and what you can see and expect in each class. If you want my suggestion, for a system i believe is a better option, I can expand on it for you. And of course, I would love input, suggestions, additions to it.

Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.05.01 06:15:00 - [11] - Quote A. By 24m SP you should 1000% have a Proto suit! Proto weapon(s), maxed all cores skills. If you don't have a max'ed suit after CCP gave you a free reset, then you have more issues than simply not being able to run Proto suits. There is no punishment because it's based on skill. Why is there an importance placed on Proto usage only?! You don't have to use a Proto suit to succeed, you don't need one to take down Proto suits, what you do need is SP bonuses and skill. I don't ever run Proto gear, I take down suits and out up a good fight against Proto stomping squads. B. No, this isn't EVE, but CCP has experience using the model and the way it was brought up it seems like CCP likes tiericide as a solution. Tiericide is the balance of matches based on balance of specialization suits, gear, output, levels etc.. based on a artificial ceiling, which may be along the std, adv, Proto lines. (I assume, although the CM suggested std, adv, adv 2, Proto, Proto 2) So everyone who would enter a std match would in theory be balanced by their limitations and produce an equal match. Its good CCP recognizes this is a problem, and will more than likely use a model they have previously used to create balance. Look tiericide is good, it's not perfect, I don't hate the idea, I just think there should be a skilled based system. I do not enjoy killing medic suits with my Advanced Cloaked Gal scout. I want to play against equal opponents who have similar skill, SP, and experience in the game as me. EVE has some really nice things, just subscription based model is blah. I rather spend 60$ on dark souls and play for years, or free games. There's planetside 2, the new online ghost recon both for PS4 that are free and look amazing. I use to be down with madden every year but its the same game, i much prefer updates model over yearly purchases of a game which highlights are better looking grass . A system based on skill level of the player is a better option; placing someone in a match with similarly skilled teammates and opponents, who have the same range of options in gear, same SP advantages in bonuses, and where every person in the match would have marginal advantages over one another should be highly considered. Problem is vets do not want balance, they do not care the system is broken because they are having too much fun stomping inadequate opponents and putting up huge scores. They don't want a 12-8 match against other skilled players, they want 20-3 match where they run over their foes.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.05.01 06:16:00 - [12] - Quote Ok glantix, GN I'm just pissed sharks lost, so i cant seem.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.05.01 06:51:00 - [13] - Quote Tiericide is an upgrade or positive step from what we have now, but it is flawed and very problematic at MLT & STD level. Marginal improvements are nothing to be excited about, we should demand a better system. Many have hailed this suit and mod ceiling as being the Devine solution , i just want to point out that it's not. i hope in the last 6 posts, i have pointed out there are many problem still in tiericide which are currently plaguing the game. It's not so problematic for the experience, again, its a system which punishes the less experienced in Dust. Something that should not be tolerated anymore. The less experience should be sheltered and not subjected to the abuse of the vets. I don't think tiericide is the answer, it have many problems and there a high potential of abuse because vets will know exactly where to find these players. Arguing that Proto vs std suits disparity will be fixed, that will be fixed regardless if the option that is chosen, so using that as a basis for saying your option is better is invalid. Matching suits isn't the answer, there's too many SP related bonuses that tip the scales worst than they are now. Vet pays 5k has a 1100+ eHP with massive resil defensive stats against some beginner using a basic frame with no racial or any sort of bonus or advantage is just an insane proposition. There is a built in advantage that will be too great to overcome, there is no chance for adaptation or diversity in builds at low suit levels. I think SP + some sort of skill score should be the matchmaking magic fix. It's widely optimistic and the skill score composition is like you said, a lot of factors to determine but average WP is a good start with a sprinkle of W/L ratio. I'm not trying to rain all over the lets fix matchmaking, I've been vocal about improving matchmaking for many months. A skill score and a system where you encounter people with similar SP and therefore similar options and advantages as you had should be considered over a suit tier based system.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.05.01 07:38:00 - [14] - Quote The vehicles do not follow the tier system, as he described it. I was saying vehicles are the exact same as suits.. As the vehicle grade goes up it opens more mods and room for bonuses. Yes, they follow a tier system. Sorry, poor wording. It's like 3:30 am, can't sleep but that should have been explaining. Of course vehicles follow a tier, but their exclusion in a tiercide system is debatable at best. I looked at it, the lower end of the tiers will be cookie cutter builds, no diversity. In wolf's argument thread, i tore his ideas upset and so did a few others in the thread and in following threads. Just because wolf says it will provide more diversity doesn't mean it does, he didn't provide any good argument but at least he understands there is a problem. He recognizes a problem and uses a few buzz words to get everyone excited, but he failed to argue against how vets won't have great advantage in such a system and he failed to demonstrate how scouts and sentinels would be viable option without major changes to the current game and skill tree. Look, i showed you that it is not reasonable to use a scout or sentinel in std (and ofc mlt) type tiers. So, how could someone argue it will diversify when you eliminate the two more diverse roles?! He wants suits which are more specific, there's nothing specific about what you will see at lower end of the tiers. I showed scout, sentinel stats and its clear at lower levels the game will look like your first 2 battle academy matches in terms of suit + gear but will end up looking like those 2-3 players who have teams and have tanks in the battle academy somehow. A few will exploit, the NPE will continue to kill game growth, and vets will leave, CCP will leave money and this will be a failure. I want this to succeed that, dust has great potential and a good community. Dev and cM's seem to care and the guys you see on forums you see in the game itself. Kinda cool. I also think the upper end of the tiers will be barren, and players will choose to take on lesser skilled players and fully use their SP bonuses to their advantage in the process. While, i don't see the problem with skilled Proto player taking on a skilled adv player, i have major issues with how easy it will be to target lesser players. I don't care to see NS type squads using std gear or str tanks to crush players they have no business in the same match with. Wolf posts, suggests dumping suits and then dumping mods: as well as a massive expansion with a totally new direction in the skill tree. He argues for more variety in role and then more defined roles and then wants to restrict everything then somehow balance will occur. And then he says will discuss after fan fest which is suspicious and 1000% sounds like he was introducing a topic from CCP. I read all his posts in the three threads he posted in concerning the topic. He doesn't sound sold, but more like he is trying to sell you rotten apples and hope we like it.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 30	Posted - 2014.05.01 07:59:00 - [15] - Quote The point is that better things should cost more ISK. Not sure, but thats the point. The better something is, the more expensive it is. Maybe you don't think 100k is worth the disparity that 1 extra mod provides you. Not really sure, but the economy of dust is built around ISK being not so easy to come by and making players feel the hurt for losing many Proto suits in a battle. Now, players throw billions at their suits and ISK is only relevant for lesser players. Seem to be under impression present issues don't exists?! Not sure if you're tired too, but I've been arguing for a balanced matchmaking process for months. One based on skill which accounts for SP advantages, keep advantages marginal. Keep the elite away from those who cannot compete with them. Whether that be due to skill or SP, you need to keep vets away from the noobs until they are ready to compete. Not provide vets with the opportunity for easy picking by joining a skirmish match with std suit ceiling and going to town. He has a good idea, he wants balance. He seems the next tier of suit being +1, while it's not equal, it is better. But this is primarily due to SP advantages (there is no skill, you take skill as an equal). Two guys same suit, one has the bonuses and mods advantages and one does not. They both spawn, player will also have the advantage and given all brings equal one will always win and be better than the other. That's not balance, thats a cemented advantage for one player over another, whereby the better SP player can seek and find the lesser player. Now because their are limited role and possibilities for the lesser player, this ad range becomes even more prominent when you consider one can use two classes more and most importantly one can use the most OP thing in the game, the cloak, and one cannot. This is an insane disparity, just crazy, that someone would think this would be an acceptable solution. It only reinforces the current problem and extends the advantage because it limits one player so significantly he is unable to realistically overcome the advantages, has no ability to adapt, has no real ability to get out of a cookie cutter build. Like i said, imagine a fully skilled std cal scout or std Amarr sentinel just running wild. Anyone with SP dumped into precision and range would see everything, anyone with SP dumped into a weapon would tear apart his novice counterpart. Reduction in weapon spread, damage vs armor/shields, rapid reload, PG reduction these alone provide significant advantages. Racial bonuses, please, massive advantages. This tiercide system isn't an answer, its a banana peel. It's just another case of what we have now, vets owning noobs and not due to skill but strictly due to SP advantages.

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