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medomai grey
warravens Final Resolution.
648
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Posted - 2014.05.01 04:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cotsy wrote:If you read the post it shows tiericide will reinforce the gap its it trying to address.
1. Tiericide doesn't fix the balancing issue in matches, it reinforces the gap between "rich and poor" so to speak via suit, modules, weapon bonuses afforded by SP. By restricting the suit one can wear, you aren't addressing any balancing issue but in fact cement it because even if a suit and outlook is exactly the same, the higher SP will win very gun battle given the same skill level due to his inherent bonuses.
I clearly show this 3 times, by addressing issues in roles (min scouts + cloaking), heavies (very hard to skill into sentinels early, and racial/weapon bonuses providing massive advantages. So Player A spawns and is at a disadvantage every time. Like I said, most people early on are restricted to assault or Logi because heavies and scouts are not realistic and not usable early on. So you have Player A, limited, without bonuses, without specialization and role optimization, without suit or weapon optimization so you have reinforced disparity.
Go make a alt, grab a level 1 weapon like the CR or RR, things people really spec into, and see if you see a massive difference. Now add 15% damage vs armor to a gun vs a std suit! one weapon is going to eat the suit while the other one will not. Now consider the difference between a std assault with no SP boosts against a sent with all its boosts. You gonna say, just not have sentinels allowed? Gonna say since scouts are really able to use cloaks early that experience scouts can't use them too? You going to say let's limit suits and guns to std but disregard the proficiency to damage, recoil/accuracy, PG reduction, rapid reload, etc.. Yes, the lower SP player will still be at a disadvantage due to skill bonuses and higher tiered weapons and modules.
But tiercide would not reinforce the power gap as you claim it would. Those extra slots and CPU/PG on higher tier suits provide a substantial advantage over lower tier suits. By taking this away, the power gap between low and high SP players would shrink, not widen. Higher SP players will still have the advantage of skill bonuses and access to higher tier modules, but the advantage of having access to suits that are better in all aspects will be gone. So no, tiercide does not reinforce the power gap.
Cotsy wrote:2. By dividing matches into suits, it will take longer to find matches and it will lead to more pros vs joes, as the pros will just select the std suit type matches and tear the players up you should be trying to protect. But a suit tier system doesn't protect them, it highlights them which leads to abuse, stomps, unbalanced matches. Tiercide has nothing to do with tiered-gear match-making.
Cotsy wrote:3. No AUR incentives, no reason to chase the next level when levels are limited. Because CCP can't develop worth while products for aurum consumption like skins? I did not know that CCP was that inept.
Cotsy wrote:4. Exploitation. Suit levels doesn't limit or balance greater than SP does. If you are limiting suits, skill will shine but experience and bonuses will shine more, so it doesn't help New Player A. It again, keeps the new player down and at a disadvantage. This is the same point as point 1. The rebuttal is also the same as point one.
Cotsy wrote:5. Try taking down vehicles. You can't remove vehicles, they are of major importance to the game providing roles, more diversity, more options to the same old mundane infantry vs infantry which is tiresome, they are a positive to the game not a negative. You can't just go around limiting everything, removing everything, making useless rules on everything because no1 will want to play. Options are a positive and limiting suits doesn't provide balance it provides needless limits to a game that cant afford to turn more players off.
Like i said, if you wanted to talk about weapons, or more issues i can name a few more. The idea isn't to limit, rather to keep matches balanced and not keep the same old gap between rich and poor. Vehicles currently follow the tiercide philosophy; intentionally or unintentional.
You also seem to be under the delusion that tiercide limits variety. Tiercide was conceived to encourage variety. Disregarding ISK costs, what incentive do you have to use your basic suit X over your proto suit X? The Wolf explains here.
Medium frame EHP is not medium
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medomai grey
warravens Final Resolution.
651
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Posted - 2014.05.01 07:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cotsy wrote:Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE.
There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe. So, I need to use cloaks to sneak up on people? And at the moment, medium frames are under performing.
But I digress. My counter to your question is another question. Your a new player in the current system with a very limited amount of SP and very little, if any, skill bonuses. How do you take down a fully spec'd out proto everything sentinel? All you have are access to only the most inferior of suits and modules. You see, the problem still exists with tiers. The only difference between tiercide and no tiercide is that the new players suit wouldn't be utter crap.
Cotsy wrote:Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded. My argument that the removal of the power gap between mlt/std and proto suits is not invalid. Versus the current system of tiered suits, the power gap would still be smaller with tiercide than without. The power disparity between new and old players would shrink.
You claim that skill bonuses will provide older players with a massive advantage over newer player. And you are right that the emphasis on skill bonuses and modules would increase under tiercide, but they don't actually get bigger. Skill bonuses would provide the same degree of advantages that they do currently. Tiercide did not magically make these bonuses more effective.
Dismissing my counter and re-iterating the statements my argument is meant to counter and name calling instead of actually countering my argument with reasoning or evidence is an invalid and weak counter.
Cotsy wrote:The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix. The goal of tiercide has nothing to do with keeping older players away from newer players.
Cotsy wrote:2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue. Tiered matchmaking and tiercide are 2 different things. Tiered matchmaking is an attempt to make matches balance by restricting the tiers of gear available for use. Tiercide aims to change player progression from vertical(more powerful) to horizontal(more options).
Medium frame EHP is not medium
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medomai grey
warravens Final Resolution.
653
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Posted - 2014.05.01 07:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cotsy wrote:5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses. Not to sure what you are getting at here. You are claiming that vehicles do not follow the tier system but they are exactly the same as the suit system which is tiered. Your going to have to elaborate on this and make clear the point your trying to make.
Cotsy wrote:Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces You didn't click on the link to the Wolf's thread did you. If you had, it would explain how the design philosphy of tiercide would lead to more variety.
I don't have to prove that scouts can't fit a cloak without significant SP investment under tiercide conditions because that same truth is true now in a tiered system. Your argument neither proves or disproves that tiercide would increase variety, only that specializing requires significant SP investment.
Cotsy wrote:WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system. I disregard ISK because the point being made is that other than cost of the suit, higher tier suits are superior in every way. It wasn't that hard of a statment to figure out.
Cotsy wrote:What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone.
After reading many of your verbose post, I am under the impression that you don't know what tiercide is; even after providing you to a link where a CPM member spoon feeds you on the subject.
And while you bring up issues that tiercide does not address, you seem to be under the impression that these present issues do not exist or are some how mitigated with the current system or some how magically inflated by tiercide. They are not. I don't ever remember anyone trying to pass off tiercide as cure all for this game's many problems. But it's just one step in the right direction.
Medium frame EHP is not medium
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