Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE.

There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe.

Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded.

The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix.

2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue.

5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses.

Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces.

WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system.

What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone.

Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE.

There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe.

Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded.

The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix.

2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue.

5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses.

Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces.

WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system.

What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone.

You could run a suit with a full suite of standard modules and, at best, only have the armor and shield upgrades passive bonus vs a brand new player. That player can get armor and shield upgrades to 3 in 1-2 weeks, catching up 60% of that differential.

That fit with full std modules would be fairly close in price to what you run now too.

I don't see the problem.

A system like this would also give me incentive to pick other suits up without having to take them to 5 first.

If I wanted to run Logi mk.0 vs my current proto logi ak.0, I NEED to get that suit to proto before it is, in any way, better than my current fit. I literally have no reason to run another logi suit until that suit is level 5 and proto before its worth using for me. My ak.0 is superior to any adv logi suit of another race.

I just cant justify waiting for 8+ weeks to casually gain 2.5 million SP just to run another suit situationally.

and no, isk is not a factor to me. I have hundreds of millions of isk from chromosome and I can stay isk positive running proto constantly.

-Stuff-

I suggest you try eve Cotsy. The ship hulls in eve are tiercided and im always excited to unlock a new turret or module. I'm perfectly happy that there isn't three separate destroyers for me to fly and two are clearly inferior to the third.

1. Dust 514 is a waiting game. Being impatient is how CCP makes money, you want something and can't get it so you buy AUR. Thats how CCP makes money. I've played 2 years and got 20m SP. Yea, its a slow pace game.

2. There is little reason to get another Logi suit, really the only one is required. Better to max equipment than to get a second suit if you wanted better times/output on your equipment. Diversify, get a scout, maybe get ads, have fun.

3. The current ISK situation is a problem, players have millions to billions and are constantly gaining more from a broken system, but say if you were matched against similar skilled players, and the ISK situation (which you exploited) was as intended, then running Proto gear wouldn't be an unlimited thing. It would be selective and a ISK dependant thing, like it was suppose to be.

You can't argue that because you exploited the ISK system that its broken completely, if it was as intended then Proto stompers would be matched against Proto stompers and not in situations whereby proto stompers are matched up against noobs and are not at risk of losing their 250k suits.

There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it......

THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS!

This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat.

What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas.

Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE!

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it......

THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS!

This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat.

What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas.

Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE!

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

There have been a few posts by a CM, in which the topic[tiericide] was introduced and blindly supported. To which, a few others blindly supported the system, without knowing what it was. So a few more people made topics, explaining that it is a system in which a ceiling on gear (suits, weapons, mods) is made to attempt to fix the disparity between vet and novice players.

To Glantix,

I'll try and add to my thoughts,

Why is tiericide being talked about?;
CCP is supposedly looking at how to improve the game, and it has been suggested that addressing matchmaking will be looked at. Judging by CCP's response in EVE to imbalance, one can see they are more likely to use a tiericide model again.

There have been a few posts by a CM, in which the topic was introduced and blindly supported. To which, a few others blindly supported the system, without knowing what it was. So a few more people made topics, explaining that it is a system in which a ceiling on gear (suits, weapons, mods) is made to attempt to fix the disparity between vet and novice players.

A few, including myself, have pointed out that tiericide is not the best solution, and tiericide would only continue to reinforce to disparity we are currently dealing with.

Currently:
I am not saying that our current system is working, no one is. People are simply showing the massive flaws in logic, the lack of supporting evidence and the major issues associated with a tier gear based system. It will keep the elite at the top, it will allow them to highlight and easily find these novice targets, and tiericide does little to expand the game. In fact at lower levels the game is very restrictive, scouts and heavies are not seen and are not realistic options.

Even inside your class, it is hard to be diverse when seeking to expand your role. Normally, (i only have one) players have 1 suit (normally assault) early so youre going to have the same 4 suits with the same basic armor plates on all builds. It's boring and harmful.

What should be done?:
There is no balanced in a tier based system, there is only balance along skill. Okay, tiericide is not the answer but neither is our current matchmaking system which can match my 500k SP character against a NS q-synced squad (it has before). So what is to be done, i suggest a two sided system. One based on SP and one based on a skill score (SP+WP), with the added point that in a squad only the three tops skill scores are used to determine opponents (prevents abuse of system).

My suggestion:
SP hard phase:
0-4m SP will be the battle academy.
5-9m SP will be the beginner phase.

Intro to Skill Based phase:
10-14m SP will be the advanced phase.
15-19 SP will be the advanced-2 phase.
20-26m+ SP will be the veteran phase.


I have details, of course i do, about each class and what you can see and expect in each class. If you want my suggestion, for a system i believe is a better option, I can expand on it for you. And of course, I would love input, suggestions, additions to it.

This is what I've been saying. It doesnt close the gap totally, but it does make it alot better for new players. It'll at the very least put them in a position where if they have better gun game, they will come out on top, not where they get stomped because they only have 50% HP than those proto players. WHY DONT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS??!?!? I'm beginning to think people are against tiericide because they want to continue to be able to farm new players for their KDRs.

As a vet who only runs STD or sometimes ADV, I relish /loathe the idea of having an inexpensive basic suit with lots of slots to maximally leverage my fully completed Dropsuit Upgrades tab.

I suppose the downside is that under tiericide, i will have no choice but to be a protstomping d!ckhead.

I wonder how many other vets feel the same way.

Tiericide has nothing to do with matchmaking. Tiericide and tier based matchmaking are diametrically opposed. You can't have tier based matchmaking without tiers. Please stop misrepresenting tiericide.

SP-based matchmaking is a terrible solution. It artificially punishes breadth- one person may have 25m SP and a maxed-out protosuit, while another person with 25m SP may have a few different ADV suits and maybe a basic HAV.

A. By 24m SP you should 1000% have a Proto suit! Proto weapon(s), maxed all cores skills. If you don't have a max'ed suit after CCP gave you a free reset, then you have more issues than simply not being able to run Proto suits. There is no punishment because it's based on skill.
Why is there an importance placed on Proto usage only?! You don't have to use a Proto suit to succeed, you don't need one to take down Proto suits, what you do need is SP bonuses and skill. I don't ever run Proto gear, I take down suits and out up a good fight against Proto stomping squads.


B. No, this isn't EVE, but CCP has experience using the model and the way it was brought up it seems like CCP likes tiericide as a solution. Tiericide is the balance of matches based on balance of specialization suits, gear, output, levels etc.. based on a artificial ceiling, which may be along the std, adv, Proto lines. (I assume, although the CM suggested std, adv, adv 2, Proto, Proto 2) So everyone who would enter a std match would in theory be balanced by their limitations and produce an equal match.

Its good CCP recognizes this is a problem, and will more than likely use a model they have previously used to create balance.
Look tiericide is good, it's not perfect, I don't hate the idea, I just think there should be a skilled based system. I do not enjoy killing medic suits with my Advanced Cloaked Gal scout. I want to play against equal opponents who have similar skill, SP, and experience in the game as me.

EVE has some really nice things, just subscription based model is blah. I rather spend 60$ on dark souls and play for years, or free games. There's planetside 2, the new online ghost recon both for PS4 that are free and look amazing. I use to be down with madden every year but its the same game, i much prefer updates model over yearly purchases of a game which highlights are better looking grass .


A system based on skill level of the player is a better option; placing someone in a match with similarly skilled teammates and opponents, who have the same range of options in gear, same SP advantages in bonuses, and where every person in the match would have marginal advantages over one another should be highly considered.
Problem is vets do not want balance, they do not care the system is broken because they are having too much fun stomping inadequate opponents and putting up huge scores. They don't want a 12-8 match against other skilled players, they want 20-3 match where they run over their foes.

As I said in a post above, yes it will reduce the initial gap between a new guy and a proto guy, but not by much. On top of that, teircide will increase the time it takes for the new guy to become on par with the vet. All of this aside, teircide will take all of the joy about skilling up your suits in this game, and it will generally take away this unique style of gameplay and mechanics that CCP has worked so hard to develop.

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it......

THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS!

This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat.

What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas.

Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE!

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

He's just a hater that likes the statas quo and he's just trying to confuse people into thinking tiercide would do the exact opposite of make what it's trying to do.

Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE.

There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe.

Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded.

The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix.

2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue.

5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses.

Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces

WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system.

What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone.

I looked at it, the lower end of the tiers will be cookie cutter builds, no diversity. In wolf's argument thread, i tore his ideas upset and so did a few others in the thread and in following threads. Just because wolf says it will provide more diversity doesn't mean it does, he didn't provide any good argument but at least he understands there is a problem. He recognizes a problem and uses a few buzz words to get everyone excited, but he failed to argue against how vets won't have great advantage in such a system and he failed to demonstrate how scouts and sentinels would be viable option without major changes to the current game and skill tree.

Look, i showed you that it is not reasonable to use a scout or sentinel in std (and ofc mlt) type tiers. So, how could someone argue it will diversify when you eliminate the two more diverse roles?! He wants suits which are more specific, there's nothing specific about what you will see at lower end of the tiers. I showed scout, sentinel stats and its clear at lower levels the game will look like your first 2 battle academy matches in terms of suit + gear but will end up looking like those 2-3 players who have teams and have tanks in the battle academy somehow. A few will exploit, the NPE will continue to kill game growth, and vets will leave, CCP will leave money and this will be a failure.

Right now, if a new player wants to get up to the level of a vet, he/she simply needs to save up and get proto modules/weapons and equip them to a proto suit. Sure the vet still has advantages with proficiencies and whatnot, but the newberry can put himself/herself on a pretty close level compared to when he/she started.


To summarize, what teircide does is take away all the excitement of progressing through the game, and it increases the gap betw

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

The point is that better things should cost more ISK. Not sure, but thats the point. The better something is, the more expensive it is. Maybe you don't think 100k is worth the disparity that 1 extra mod provides you. Not really sure, but the economy of dust is built around ISK being not so easy to come by and making players feel the hurt for losing many Proto suits in a battle. Now, players throw billions at their suits and ISK is only relevant for lesser players.


Seem to be under impression present issues don't exists?! Not sure if you're tired too, but I've been arguing for a balanced matchmaking process for months. One based on skill which accounts for SP advantages, keep advantages marginal.

Keep the elite away from those who cannot compete with them. Whether that be due to skill or SP, you need to keep vets away from the noobs until they are ready to compete. Not provide vets with the opportunity for easy picking by joining a skirmish match with std suit ceiling and going to town.


He has a good idea, he wants balance. He seems the next tier of suit being +1, while it's not equal, it is better. But this is primarily due to SP advantages (there is no skill, you take skill as an equal). Two guys same suit, one has the bonuses and mods advantages and one does not. They both spawn, player will also have the advantage and given all brings equal one will always win and be better than the other. That's not balance, thats a cemented advantage for one player over another, whereby the better SP player can seek and find the lesser player. Now because their are limited role and possibilities for the lesser player, this ad range becomes even more prominent when you consider one can use two classes more and most importantly one can use the most OP thing in the game, the cloak, and one cannot.

This is an insane disparity, just crazy, that someone would think this would be an acceptable solution. It only reinforces the current problem and extends the advantage because it limits one player so significantly he is unable to realistically overcome the advantages, has no ability to adapt, has no real ability to get out of a cookie cutter build.

Like i said, imagine a fully skilled std cal scout or std Amarr sentinel just running wild. Anyone with SP dumped into precision and range would see everything, anyone with SP dumped into a weapon would tear apart his novice counterpart. Reduction in weapon spread, damage vs armor/shields, rapid reload, PG reduction these alone provide significant advantages. Racial bonuses, please, massive advantages.

This tiercide system isn't an answer, its a banana peel. It's just another case of what we have now, vets owning noobs and not due to skill but strictly due to SP advantages.

All that said, I'm not necessarily for tiericide at this point in time. I like it in principle, however Dust has far too little content for tiericide to be beneficial yet. We need many many more specializations and more game modes other than team death match and objective holding/capturing.

Looking at Eve, it took them what 8? 10? years before they did tiericide, at which point there were hundreds of ships. We need at least a couple of dozen suits before we could do tiericide and not end up having no content to play with.

"Tiericide" is a transitional step moving from one design philosophy to another.