DUST Search - In defense of tiercide

Glantix Karmic-Snow wrote:

Ok, I can tell my argument is failing. You guys have successfully countered almost all of my points. But there is one point I stand by, and it is that reason alone that I believe we should ditch the concept of tiercide.

That feeling of progression is what keeps players in this game. That feeling when you unlock a new weapon and you feel like you can take on the world. That feeling of when you level a suit up from level 2 to level 3, and all of a sudden your options and power increase dramatically. That feeling know you can now equip more modules, and that you are now closer to the vets who's shadows have been cast upon you for so long. That feeling is what keeps this game interesting and alive.

You cannot tell me that getting a 5% bonus to something decent is more exciting than getting that 5% bonus as well as 1 or 2 more modules, maybe even an equipment. Everyone knows it is pretty boring when you unlock an advanced module, because it is only providing a small benefit and your suit isn't really changing.

But it is that feeling of advancement, that sensation of going from standard to advanced, and advanced to prototype, that really makes the game not only interesting, but unique.

I know most of my previous arguments didn't make much sense, in fact looking back they don't make much sense to me either. Ugh

But if you are going to deny that tiercide is going to take a lot of the fun out of this game, then you should go watch paint dry or something, because to people like you anything like that should be entertaining too.

Thank you for your time, and thanks for an interesting argument, but this is my closing point.

Sincerely, Glanitx / Snow


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Django Quik Dust2Dust. 3077	Posted - 2014.05.01 08:44:00 - [1] - Quote Some people here clearly do not know (or deliberately choose to misrepresent) what tiericide is. Firstly and very importantly - tiericide has absolutely nothing to do with matchmaking. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Please do not mention matchmaking again. There is no connection between the two things at all. They are entirely separate. Secondly - there are many examples of tiericide implementations. All are intended to reduce the gap between new players and vet players - if they do not do this, they are not good implementations of tiericide. This does not mean that tiericide is inherently flawed - it just means a better implementation of it should be used. Thirdly - implementing tiericide does not necessarily mean applying it to everything. The majority of the versions suggested for Dust514 have been exclusively applied to dropsuits. There would still be tiers of modules and weapons in most of the tiericide ideas presented. Lastly - vehicles since they were re-done definitely are tiericided. There are no 'levels' of vehicles; only militia and standard. Standard vehicles are tier 1. There is no tier 2, 3, 4 or 5. Although there are many balancing problems with tanks and a desperate lack of modules and variety, you can be certain that tiers are not a problem with them because vehicle tiers do not exist. However, since there are no 'specialisations' of vehicle frames, this is not a good example of how tiericide could be applied to dropsuits. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 3077	Posted - 2014.05.01 08:49:00 - [2] - Quote All that said, I'm not necessarily for tiericide at this point in time. I like it in principle, however Dust has far too little content for tiericide to be beneficial yet. We need many many more specialisations and more game modes other than team death match and objective holding/capturing. Looking at Eve, it took them what 8? 10? years before they did tiericide, at which point there were hundreds of ships. We need at least a couple of dozen suits before we could do tiericide and not end up having no content to play with. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 3083	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:06:00 - [3] - Quote More anti-tiericide people poorly explaining why they think tiericide is bad and failing to grasp what it would actually do. Good god I hope this thread gets locked for dumbness soon. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 3085	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:27:00 - [4] - Quote Aleksander Black wrote: Django Quik wrote: More anti-tiericide people poorly explaining why they think tiericide is bad and failing to grasp what it would actually do. Good god I hope this thread gets locked for dumbness soon. I can say pretty much the same for the pro-tiericide people... But you'd be as wrong as your incorrect assertions are. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 3086	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:56:00 - [5] - Quote Look, to put it real simply - almost without fail, every post against tiericide either fails to describe what tiericide would actually do or cherry picks a particularly poor implementation of it and says why that version would be bad. Most arguments try to explain why tiericide is bad by describing problems that are currently worse than they would be with tiericide - no tiericide is not a panacea but it would be a hell of a lot better than the current state of things. Other arguments center around the removal of incentive towards progression - do you really believe that people start out this game and see it taking 2.5M SP to get a proto suit and think "Hey, that's only 2 months of playing and getting my ass kicked, as well as the extra time it's going to take to get a decent weapon and modules and core skills! Think I'll stick around for months and months to get there!" ? Look at it this way - tiericide removes useless crap from the game. I have proto gallente scout suits but I only run advanced because I like to be economical. I never ever use standard or militia suits - that's 2 tiers of suit that are completely going to waste. If I was to skill into another suit (I'd quite like to try out a quad repping gallente sentinel), there is no way in hell I'd bother with using the standard suit at all because it's guff; it has half the mod slots of the proto! With tiericide, if I decide I want to broaden my capabilities, I can do so without having to go through the useless crap that I don't want to use first. If you don't get what I'm getting at, you don't get tiericide and need to do some deep thinking about what it really is. Tiericide gives everything a use and gets rid of everything that has no use. Hell, even basic suits would be useful if they gave the basic skill a bonus to level 5 instead of again just providing us with useless filler like we have now. So tell me, anti-tiericiders, what about tiericide would be worse than the current situation? Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 3088	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:00:00 - [6] - Quote Oh and another thing - Glantix - Dust not being Eve does not mean tiericide is a bad idea. Eve used to have tiers like Dust does now. Tiericide made it a better game. Tiericide (implemented correctly) can also make Dust a better game irrespective of Eve. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 3088	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:01:00 - [7] - Quote Dauth Jenkins wrote: But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide). Tiericide would not rule out cosmetics. And to be honest, your suit definitely looks like a decent percentage of the rest of the population. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 3097	Posted - 2014.05.02 07:23:00 - [8] - Quote Glantix Karmic-Snow wrote: Ok, I can tell my argument is failing. You guys have successfully countered almost all of my points. But there is one point I stand by, and it is that reason alone that I believe we should ditch the concept of tiercide. That feeling of progression is what keeps players in this game. That feeling when you unlock a new weapon and you feel like you can take on the world. That feeling of when you level a suit up from level 2 to level 3, and all of a sudden your options and power increase dramatically. That feeling know you can now equip more modules, and that you are now closer to the vets who's shadows have been cast upon you for so long. That feeling is what keeps this game interesting and alive. You cannot tell me that getting a 5% bonus to something decent is more exciting than getting that 5% bonus as well as 1 or 2 more modules, maybe even an equipment. Everyone knows it is pretty boring when you unlock an advanced module, because it is only providing a small benefit and your suit isn't really changing. But it is that feeling of advancement, that sensation of going from standard to advanced, and advanced to prototype, that really makes the game not only interesting, but unique. I know most of my previous arguments didn't make much sense, in fact looking back they don't make much sense to me either. But if you are going to deny that tiercide is going to take a lot of the fun out of this game, then you should go watch paint dry or something, because to people like you anything like that should be entertaining too. Thank you for your time, and thanks for an interesting argument, but this is my closing point. Sincerely, Glanitx / Snow A game should be fun without having to spend months grinding just to 'progress'. The SP system has become far too big a part of Dust514's 'fun', mostly because there's simply nothing to do, no other way to measure progress. That's a different problem fixed with different things but 'leveling up' should never be the main focus of a game. You're quite right that unlocking a new suit is a big deal, though - thing is, that feeling would still exist with tiericide; it's just that tiericide means you wouldn't be unlocking a useless suit, like going from adv basic to std specialist does. How much more awesome would it be if instead of having to balance 2 crappy useless suits for each class, CCP only have to balance one and can then spend more resources making us new specialist suits? Or T3 suits that are even more specialist? The big problem with the current system is power creep. The way CCP have suits at the moment means that they have nowhere else to go because as soon as they add another line of suits from the current ones, they have to be even more powerful than current proto suits, which will eclipse everything below them and make everything before them utterly redundant. Tiericide rids us of this problem and gives CCP the space to give us more. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts