Fundamentally, what's being called "tiericide" is the same thing from EVE to DUST, not because ship hulls equate to dropsuits but because of the design philosophy.

WHAT TIERICIDE IS (PHILOSOPHY)

"Tiericide" is a transitional step moving from one design philosophy to another. Specifically, it's moving from a philosophy where experience and money buy greater power to one where every item in the game has a purpose. This was the stated intent as far as I saw of the "tiericide" effort in EVE: that a player with 10 years of skill training would have some reasonable justification to use every ship for which that player had trained.

To clarify, "tiericide" is not a long-term solution. The long-term solution is the design philosophy. "Tiericide" is a way of getting from the current philosophy to a new philosophy.

One could reasonably consider the current design philosophy "pay-to-win." This is because investing more ISK in your fit buys more power, with absolutely no downside other than the increased cost.

The new philosophy, on the other hand, considers ISK to be an economic factor rather than a balancing factor. When you consider opening the DUST economy to simple trading, mining, manufacturing, and research, let alone EVE, you may start to see how the simple ISK-for-power tradeoff becomes problematic. At the very least, it can contribute to a steep money-power loop.

HOW TO IMPLEMENT TIERICIDE

There are different camps. As IWS pointed out, it's not a great idea to go to CCP with specifics. (I've spent a lot of time on corporate strategy, so I can relate.) But for the purpose of this explanation, let's outline three.

First up is complete tiericide. Everything in the game that currently has tiers, gets cut down to one item. Instead of standard, advanced, and prototype codebreaker modules, you get one codebreaker module. Same with suits. Weapons would still have variants, but it would just be assault rifle, tactical assault rifle, breach assault rifle, and burst assault rifle--no standard, advanced, or proto.

Second is to put downsides on all equipment. This turns "better" equipment into "more specialized" equipment. For example, one prototype Scout suit might have a higher scan profile than its standard variant, while another might be slower than the standard, in exchange for other advantages or more PG/CPU. A prototype rail rifle might be more powerful but also have more kick than a standard variant.

The final approach I'll discuss is proposed in the original post in this thread. Simply remove the suit tiers. There will be one militia heavy frame, one basic heavy frame, one Commando, and one Sentinel for each race. Same with medium and light suits. Modules and weapons go untouched. The reasoning behind this is that the module, weapons, and equipment tiers have to balance around the suit's fixed PG/CPU. No one will be able to fill every slot with a prototype item, so for every fit you will have to choose whether you want more power in one slot at the expense of power in another slot. Thus the remaining standard/advanced/prototype tiers for modules, weapons, and equipment are justified on the basis of fittings costs and tradeoffs, not just ISK.

THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE

The most widespread impact will be an increase in variety without having to add any new content. Instead of just buying the most expensive version of all the same modules (I very much doubt that there's a whole lot of variation in how people fit Sentinels, for example), players will have to make choices about how the equipment they're choosing will impact the way they play.

The biggest potential negative impact is that players may feel less "elite" if higher tiers are removed, and disincentivize spending and skills. Going from driving a Ferrari to driving a Honda isn't functionally different, but the way you feel about it is different. I believe, if done right, that players won't really miss the tiers because of the ability to unlock variety and customization. Not to mention there is a different sense of "elite" in mastering something powerful that comes with downsides or weaknesses.

THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE ON NEW PLAYERS

The potential positive impact on the new player experience is a complicated one to discuss, because NPE is complicated in general. Research suggests players need to feel they are 90% of the way to "success" ("success" being a moving target as the player progresses) in order to be motivated to play. In this sense the concept that "having an elite motivates the new players to try to reach that level" is fundamentally flawed. All new players see is a long slog of losing games, trying to earn enough SP and ISK just to be able to feel like they're really playing.

Tiericide helps with the NPE psychologically because the gap between tiers can be intimidating. If I'm in a standard medium suit and get killed by a proto assault, I have four tiers and seven skill levels between me and the person that killed me in the suit alone. But if I'm just killed by an "assault" suit, all I see is the role. The psychological impact could be significant even if the practical impact is minimal. Remember that a lot of the NPE is about how players feel and not necessarily the reality behind it. That works in both directions.

SUMMARY OF THE ARGUMENT FOR TIERICIDE IN THREE SENTENCES

(Because apparently this is a thing now.)

Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player.

As I said in a post above, yes it will reduce the initial gap between a new guy and a proto guy, but not by much. On top of that, teircide will increase the time it takes for the new guy to become on par with the vet. All of this aside, teircide will take all of the joy about skilling up your suits in this game, and it will generally take away this unique style of gameplay and mechanics that CCP has worked so hard to develop.

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it......

THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS!

This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat.

What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas.

Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE!

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

"Tiericide" would kill many things at the same time, all in the name of making the game "easier" for new players. Thing is, the game would likely not be much easier for them anyway and all these changes would kill the game as we know it now.

No tiers pretty much removes the economy from the game. If all suits are equal they should all cost the same, if they cost the same why bother with isk? Better yet, how to tie the ISK in the game? It would be just a hard cap on the number of times you can die in a match? Would there not be anything to spend lots of it on? Is this what you guys think EVE is like by any stretch?

Or would you make "specializations" the expensive stuff, and if so could you really justify it being more expensive but not more "powerful"?

New players die horribly facing organized squads because they are a random bunch of newberries facing organized squads, not because of the gear.

They would die every bit as horribly if everyone in that match were using proto gear no-stop . Is it really worth changing the whole game over this?

And what would you accomplish with this? Removing pretty much all sense of progression from this game? Some players give up after being stomped, sure. But even if these were to stay, would they stay for long?

The players that stay for long do so because they have a chance to improve their skills, to make connections and learn the game - because they know that their time investment will bear results.

Changing this fundamental aspect of the game so that it become a shallow "balanced" shooter experience will only drive away the players that could stay and stayed so far for the long run and, maybe, keep the superficially interested ones playing for a couple of weeks instead of hours, and then, when they quit, we have nothing.

I'm against this tiericide of yours.

I'm tired of hearing "Tiericed" being screamed across this forum as if it was something that actually made sense .

Understand that "tiericide" is NOT the answer.

If they have the patience to squad up and try and learn the game they have the patience to grind it up. This grind is what define, is what separate one specialist from the other, one player from the other. Take it away and you have nothing but dust.

New players die horribly facing organized squads because they are a random bunch of newberries facing organized squads,

They would die every bit as horribly if everyone in that match were using proto gear no-stop. Ok, maybe they'd actually scored a couple of kills more (that would get revived) and that's it. Is it really worth changing the whole game over this?

And what would you acomplish with this?

I'm tired of hearing "Tiericed" being screamed across this forum as if it was something that actually made sense, there are already a dozen of threads explaining in detail why it doesn't. I think it all boils down to the players frustrated with the NPE. I feel your pain, I really do, but please, please. Understand that "tiericide" is NOT the answer.

You make a valid point, though I feel Cotsy's idea has more merit and will work better than teircide.

Now I can honestly say I have never played EVE, or any the other more popular FPS.

What I can also say is people seem to be over dramatising the basic to proto difference. Trust me, we are branching in to my area of expertise more or less.

For the past eight months of me playing, I have biomassed over 100 different characters that I treated as my main, many of which had over 1 mil sp each. I have once, and only once, ever skilled into an advanced suit. As someone who has been running new player level basic gear for eight months, I know what it is like to be outmatched.

Now my play group includes someone who is in a similar situation to me, except he is sitting around 2.5 mil sp and has an adv suit. There are two other people in my typical group, a very experience player who commonly uses his alt which almost has proto gear, and a new player with 2.5 mil sp aswell. Us four typically do very well, and being outmatched in gear doesn't usually equal losing the game. In fact, it usually takes a full squad of proto or good adv gear with excellent teamwork to actually give us a run for our money.

To summarize, the tier system we have now is actually working pretty well, and tiercide is in no way necessary. In fact, PVE is really the one thing we need and we will be pretty solid when it comes to balance.

As always, Glantix / Snow

More anti-tiericide people poorly explaining why they think tiericide is bad and failing to grasp what it would actually do. Good god I hope this thread gets locked for dumbness soon.

So what you're saying is that the difference between standard and prototype isn't that much, that these don't make much of a difference?
175 CPU
39 PG
3 Highs
3 Lows
Even if it doesn't make much much of difference for some, for most players it does. In opposition of having an SP based matchmaking system, I have these things to say: you even said it yourself that you and other experienced players who use low SP characters can do well against groups of people who have enough SP to use proto, so how can you honestly say that just having more SP makes one a more skilled player and should be used to match players? Lastly, how would adding PVE balance PVP?

I can say pretty much the same for the pro-tiericide people...

Whats that word above the logo for this game on this page?

I am not saying that the difference between proto and standard is small, in fact quite the contrary. I'm saying that the jump towards proto is a large one, so new players can feel like they are closing the gap. I am not saying that we need an sp based matchmaking system, I am saying that an sp based matchmaking system would work better than tiercide. Honestly, I am against both you guys and Cotsy, I thin kthat the system works fine the way it is, to an extent. I feel that adding PVE would give a way for the new players to avoid the vets and slowly make their way towards vet level. Adding PVE would probably have some negative impacts on PVP initially, due to a large influx of players moving towards PVE at the beginning to try it out.

So to sum it up, I don't support anyone but myself, and PVE is the solution.

Sincerely, Glantix / Snow

But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide).

But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide).

But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide).

But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide).

Its a free to play game, within the next year we could/should have dropsuit painting as a purchasable cosmetic.

There's already a pilot program for it in EVE, and AFAIK it has been going well, and people have been coughing up dough for it. I can only imagine that CCP will jump on implementing it for Dust as well.

So after a good night's sleep I can finally explain my points better. I have always been horrible at explaining things, so if anyone still needs clarification on something just ask. That being said, let me begin to elaborate and make my counter-points.

1. Right now, once a player gets a proto suit, they can put themselves close to on par with vets with just proto stuff alone.

You cannot tell me that getting a 5% bonus to something decent is more exciting than getting that 5% bonus as well as 1 or 2 more modules, maybe even an equipment. Everyone knows it is pretty boring when you unlock an advanced module, because it is only providing a small benefit and your suit isn't really changing.

Ok, I can tell my argument is failing. You guys have successfully countered almost all of my points. But there is one point I stand by, and it is that reason alone that I believe we should ditch the concept of tiercide.

That feeling of progression is what keeps players in this game. That feeling when you unlock a new weapon and you feel like you can take on the world. That feeling of when you level a suit up from level 2 to level 3, and all of a sudden your options and power increase dramatically. That feeling know you can now equip more modules, and that you are now closer to the vets who's shadows have been cast upon you for so long. That feeling is what keeps this game interesting and alive.

You cannot tell me that getting a 5% bonus to something decent is more exciting than getting that 5% bonus as well as 1 or 2 more modules, maybe even an equipment. Everyone knows it is pretty boring when you unlock an advanced module, because it is only providing a small benefit and your suit isn't really changing.

But it is that feeling of advancement, that sensation of going from standard to advanced, and advanced to prototype, that really make the game not only interesting, but unique.

I know most of my previous arguments didn't make much sense, in fact looking back they don't make much sense to me either. But if you are going to deny that tiercide is going to take a lot of the fun out of this game, then you should go watch paint dry or something, because to people like you anything that should be entertaining too.

Thank you for your time, and thanks for an interesting argument, but this is my closing point.

Sincerely, Glanitx / Snow