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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10671	Posted - 2014.04.30 22:48:00 - [1] - Quote Me & many others find the vertical progression too steep for a healthy game, & would prefer if SP provided players with more sidegrades instead of pure upgrades; this is why many of us support dropsuit tiercide Ideally there should only be militia & standard tier for dropsuits (though with slots & stat of advanced & prototype). You start with access to militia, standard is unlocked at level 1 of a basic frame skill, & you then unlock the specialization skill (like commando or sentinel skill) once you reach level 3 of that basic frame skill, & the specialization skill unlocks a standard specialized dropsuit. Seriously, this game would still have more vertical progression than tolerable for most FPS players with just the weapon, equipment, & module tiers; skill bonuses also. The lack of tiers is something CCP got right with vehicles. now to address concerns regarding tiercide [Risk VS Rewards] If dropsuits came in only militia & standard, risk vs reward would could still be very much alive & well. The price gap between basic/standard & complex/prototype weapons, equipment, & modules would maintain risk vs reward. [AUR sales] Some are concerned that without high tier AUR suis for CCP to sell, it would hurt CCP & the game. Weapons, equipment, & modules would still have tiers to monetize Early access to specializations would still exist; someone who never skilled into Minmatar heavy frame would have the option of buying a standard AUR Minmatar commando as a shortcut. Boosters would still exist for CCP to sell. Visual ustomizations: this is how most of the successful free-to-play games make their money. [BPOs] There is concern that in a tiercided Dust that BPOs would be way too good & useful since they don't have a ton of tiers above them; this only applies to dropsuit BPOs. BPOs only come in militia & standard tier anyway, the real differences in power & price will come from weapons equipment & modules; a standard or militia BPO dropsuit with militia BPO modules won't be competative against a standard dropsuit with complex/prototype modules equipment, & weapons. If BPOs do become a problem, there are options: Make the standard BPOs have militia slot layouts Make the BPOs permanent skins that can be applied to a suit [Basic frame skills] If standard is unlocked at level 1, & specializations are unlocked at level 3, level 4 & 5 would serve no purpose (since there would be no prototype). Solution is to give basic frame skill a bonus that not only effects the basic frame, but all specializations within that frame size as well; for example, a Caldari commando would have both the Caldari heavy bonus in addition to the Caldari commando bonus. This would make having 5 levels of a basic frame skill justified. I have a thread on possible basic frame bonuses here. ["But it won't fix NPE"] Many have claimed that tiercide won't do anything to help with NPE because experienced players working together will always beat disorganized inexperienced players. While tiercide won't fix everything, it certainly would make it a whole lot better. Imagine 2 scenarios. In the first scenario, a group of starter fit newbs are fighting against an organized group of vets in prototype dropsuits. In the second scenario the starter fit newbs are fighting against an organized group of vets using standard dropsuits. In both cases the vets have the advantages, but in the second scenario the newbs will at least have a chance & maybe score a few kills, & have fun despite losing. The first scenario would only kill the fun for newbs (remember "fun"? the reason people play games?), & they will immediately quit, which only serves to stifle the player population of Dust. Imagine if other shooters used the "organized vets will win anyway" as an excuse to add overwhelmingly superior items that new players can't access; that would lead to a complete disaster, & their NPE would be as bad as Dust's. Just because organized vets already have an advantage does not mean its ok to keep giving them more advantages, in fact it means the exact opposite; you should not give them more advantages, yet that's exactly what Dust does. ["But its an MMO, MMO have a lot of tiers"] Most MMOs are PVE-centric, meaning you never have to fight another player with higher tier items unless you want to; either by a duel, or by voluntarily entering a PVP area. Dust on the other hand is only PVP, & will remain mainly focused on PVP even when PVE comes. This "but MMO" argument is BS. Instead of tiers, the game should have more specializations for players to unlock. Perhaps even specializations on top of existing specializations. Example: Once you get an assault skill level 3, you can unlock a new skill to use a new specialization with no grenade, less slots, & less speed than an assault in exchange for a bonus to range & zoom, as well as inheriting the basic medium & assault bonuses (call it the marksmen). Logistics level 3 can access to a new specialization with less slots but has built-in E-war equipment. Would inherit basic medium & logistics bonuses in addition to bonuses to the E-war equipment (call it the engineer). Scouts at level 3 could unlock a new specialization with only one equipment slot, less modules, but 2 sidearms (or 3 sidearms & no light weapon); in addition to inheriting the basic light & scout bonuses, they could have a bonus to sidearm damage & racial knife fitting (predator or assassin). Sentinel at level 3 could unlock a new specialization with less slots, penalty (or restriction) to fitting light weapons, but in exchange inherit the basic heavy & sentinel bonuses in addition to racial heavy weapon damage (sentry). These are just examples, and just more regular specializations would also be fine. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10671	Posted - 2014.04.30 22:49:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Yoma Carrim Kinsho Swords Caldari State 486	Posted - 2014.04.30 22:53:00 - [3] - Quote Excellently presented as always KAGEHOSHI Oh Heck Logi, Tanker, Heavy
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2429	Posted - 2014.04.30 22:58:00 - [4] - Quote +1 Kagehoshi for supreme overlord of the CPM. Don't bother with your own ideas, just go present Kagehoshi's ideas to the devs. Nerdier than thou
ugg reset Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 575	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:03:00 - [5] - Quote sounds like CoD to me. Thr33 is the magic number.
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2431	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:06:00 - [6] - Quote ugg reset wrote: sounds like CoD to me. ... how so? In that your SP wouldn't grant you a nigh-insurmountable advantage over new players? Nerdier than thou
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10672	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:08:00 - [7] - Quote ugg reset wrote: sounds like CoD to me. Not sure if trolling, or just blind. COD doesn't have modules, equipment, or weapons that come in 3-4 tiers (5 if you count officer), or even the two tiers I want for dropsuits (miliia and standard). COD doesn't have various branching sidegrade specializations. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2110	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:09:00 - [8] - Quote weapon tiercide and adding in weapon rigging would help too. Just sayin....... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2432	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:10:00 - [9] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: weapon tiercide and adding in weapon rigging would help too. Just sayin....... Weapon rigging = yes, much please. However, IMO weapon tiers can stay- with only STD suits, it allows you to choose how much of your fitting resources to allocate to pure offense vs utility/defense in the form of modules. Nerdier than thou
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10673	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:12:00 - [10] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: weapon tiercide and adding in weapon rigging would help too. Just sayin....... Weapon rigging = yes, much please. However, IMO weapon tiers can stay- it allows you to choose how much of your fitting resources to allocate to pure offense vs utility/defense in the form of modules. Exactly, the PG/CPU tradeoff makes the tiers for weapons, equipment, and modules fair in my opinion, so they should keep tiers. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

Miokai Zahou The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 219	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:20:00 - [11] - Quote Sounds way too much like a hello kitty land 514 (teircide) then a gritty hard place to play in and also sounds more like it's catering for people wanting an easy mode for their SP gain... doesn't sound New Edenish to me. Also touch our dren and templar BPOs with this filthy teircide and watch the forum's burn. We bought them as exclusive suits and gear to use and I'll be damned to see them turn into cosmetics. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2433	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:25:00 - [12] - Quote Miokai Zahou wrote: Sounds way too much like a hello kitty land 514 (teircide) then a gritty hard place to play in and also sounds more like it's catering for people wanting an easy mode for their SP gain... doesn't sound New Edenish to me. Also touch our dren and templar BPOs with this filthy teircide and watch the forum's burn. We bought them as exclusive suits and gear to use and I'll be damned to see them turn into cosmetics. Doesn't sound New Edenish? EVE has pretty much exactly this form of tiercide, and it's pretty far from "hello kitty land". It is, by definition, New Edenish. I doubt the BPOs would actually be turned into cosmetics- after all, the dren set is about as bland-looking as you can get. Nerdier than thou
ugg reset Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 575	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:25:00 - [13] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: ugg reset wrote: sounds like CoD to me. ... how so? In that your SP wouldn't grant you a nigh-insurmountable advantage over new players? yup, I'm evil. It's funny thought, with all the SP events lately i've been seeing and killing a lot more "proto stompers" running shiitake fit proto gear. point being: mods are nice but Core skills and suit bonuses do a hell of a lot more, and you don't run out of those. I remember last year at fanfest CCP talked about a "war for sport" branch of game play. If you want "fun fair fights" more focused on player skill that SP investment I think that would be right up your alley. Im not saying that things are fine the way they are now, we defiantly need more content. Thr33 is the magic number.
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2433	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:27:00 - [14] - Quote ugg reset wrote: Awry Barux wrote: ugg reset wrote: sounds like CoD to me. ... how so? In that your SP wouldn't grant you a nigh-insurmountable advantage over new players? yup, I'm evil. It's funny thought, with all the SP events lately i've been seeing and killing a lot more "proto stompers" running shiitake fit proto gear. point being: mods are nice but Core skills and suit bonuses do a hell of a lot more, and you don't run out of those. I remember last year at fanfest CCP talked about a "war for sport" branch of game play. If you want "fun fair fights" more focused on player skill that SP investment I think that would be right up your alley. Im not saying that things are fine the way they are now, we defiantly need more content. I'm fully aware of the value of modules and core skills, and I definitely don't want to remove it from the game. That's why tiercide of this type isn't going to remove the advantages of having SP, which is good- it's just going to reduce them to a more reasonable level. Nerdier than thou
ugg reset Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 575	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:33:00 - [15] - Quote I'll leave this here and go pop some popcorn. teamwork > gear. every day of the week. Thr33 is the magic number.
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 2433	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:37:00 - [16] - Quote ugg reset wrote: I'll leave this here and go pop some popcorn. teamwork > gear. every day of the week. Well no **** sherlock. But currently, teamwork + gear > teamwork + gun game or situational awareness, and that's not right. Nerdier than thou
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10676	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:39:00 - [17] - Quote ugg reset wrote: I'll leave this here and go pop some popcorn. teamwork > gear. every day of the week. If that's the case, you shouldn't have a problem with everyone being on a slightly more equal footing with gear since gear wasn't that important. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9987	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:45:00 - [18] - Quote I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value? "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1596	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:46:00 - [19] - Quote Personally i love this idea. In Warframe, there's no 'tiers' except for your modules. There is no 'Ember 1/2/3' Sure. There IS a Ember Prime, with changed stats and are generally considered improvements, but they almost always have a downgraded stat. Run my Assault fitting, gaining bonuses(and raising the ISK cost of the suit) or run my generalized Medium Frame(which could cost a fraction of the Assault.) General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Yoma Carrim Kinsho Swords Caldari State 492	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:50:00 - [20] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value? Hmmm think of it this way Suit with 5x basic shield extenders and a STD rail rifle pack less punch than a suit with 5x complex shield extender with a Kaalakata Rail rifle. A complex Armor reper reps faster than a MLT armor reper They would have the same slot layout but You would have the better modules and weapons. Oh Heck Logi, Tanker, Heavy

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10676	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:53:00 - [21] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value? I'm not sure you understand, there wouldn't be proto at all. Just like vehicles there would only be basic militia, basic standard, and standard specialist. Eequipment, modules, and weapons would stay the same. I'm not sure what you mean "side ways skills" either. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9987	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:54:00 - [22] - Quote Yoma Carrim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value? Hmmm think of it this way Suit with 5x basic shield extenders and a STD rail rifle pack less punch than a suit with 5x complex shield extender with a Kaalakata Rail rifle. A complex Armor reper reps faster than a MLT armor reper They would have the same slot layout but You would have the better modules and weapons. That still fundamentally means I am better than him because I have ISK and SP........ I guess its not a great in terms of difference......but at that point I see no reason to invest SP and ISK into a build if I received no visible benefits over a lesser build. My point is why did MLY HAV sales increase five fold and why are those sales numbers as static as they are? Because MLT HAV are so close in module efficiencies and frame value that there is no real reason to use better since you can achieve the same level of effectiveness with a tank valued at 1/2 the price...... All that means to me, and please by all means try to persuade me, that a new player with less than a quarter of the time and 1/2 the ISK invested is functionally on par with me...... bad or good, what was the point of me putting in effort to develop my tank? "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2110	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:59:00 - [23] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: weapon tiercide and adding in weapon rigging would help too. Just sayin....... Weapon rigging = yes, much please. However, IMO weapon tiers can stay- it allows you to choose how much of your fitting resources to allocate to pure offense vs utility/defense in the form of modules. Exactly, the PG/CPU tradeoff makes the tiers for weapons, equipment, and modules fair in my opinion, so they should keep tiers. Well, I was seeing it as to make the rigging system make a lot more sense, as you would only have to balance the rigs for one weapon instead of many (you can't really make a sight better the higher you go, as sights are personal preference things). Really, weapon balance as a well would go a lot smoother with rigs and one weapon per each instead of tiers, and rigs, as well as variants (which are also tiered). Also, it would really help balance AV versus vehicles, as it's one weapon versus 3. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1599	Posted - 2014.05.01 00:14:00 - [24] - Quote The benefit of Tiericide lies not in 'i spent more ISK on a dropsuit so i can stack more' The benefit is that 'i skilled my Fittings Optimizations and Cores, so i COULD fit a 600/400 HP tank on my Basic medframe, and that i only need to sort my fittings based on their cost, not the suit, followed by cost. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9988	Posted - 2014.05.01 00:16:00 - [25] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: The benefit of Tiericide lies not in 'i spent more ISK on a dropsuit so i can stack more' The benefit is that 'i skilled my Fittings Optimizations and Cores, so i COULD fit a 600/400 HP tank on my Basic medframe, and that i only need to sort my fittings based on their cost, not the suit, followed by cost. SO More SP = Better performance as opposed to More ISK and SP= Better performance. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1599	Posted - 2014.05.01 00:16:00 - [26] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Yoma Carrim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value? Hmmm think of it this way Suit with 5x basic shield extenders and a STD rail rifle pack less punch than a suit with 5x complex shield extender with a Kaalakata Rail rifle. A complex Armor reper reps faster than a MLT armor reper They would have the same slot layout but You would have the better modules and weapons. That still fundamentally means I am better than him because I have ISK and SP........ I guess its not a great in terms of difference......but at that point I see no reason to invest SP and ISK into a build if I received no visible benefits over a lesser build. My point is why did MLY HAV sales increase five fold and why are those sales numbers as static as they are? Because MLT HAV are so close in module efficiencies and frame value that there is no real reason to use better since you can achieve the same level of effectiveness with a tank valued at 1/2 the price...... All that means to me, and please by all means try to persuade me, that a new player with less than a quarter of the time and 1/2 the ISK invested is functionally on par with me...... bad or good, what was the point of me putting in effort to develop my tank? You have dropsuit shield/armor upgrades. You have Biotics 5. You have Engineering/Cpu 5. You can fit much more than him. Even while running the same fitting, you have 25% more HP, 5% more sprint, 15% reload speed, 25% ammo, you have suit bonuses. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Autoaim Bot514 The Hetairoi 110	Posted - 2014.05.01 00:17:00 - [27] - Quote Well said.
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1600	Posted - 2014.05.01 00:32:00 - [28] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: The benefit of Tiericide lies not in 'i spent more ISK on a dropsuit so i can stack more' The benefit is that 'i skilled my Fittings Optimizations and Cores, so i COULD fit a 600/400 HP tank on my Basic medframe, and that i only need to sort my fittings based on their cost, not the suit, followed by cost. SO More SP = Better performance as opposed to More ISK and SP= Better performance. You still gain advantage by spending more isk i.e modules. The difference is a bit difficult to understand, but instead of fitting a proto gun AND better modules AND more of them, you lose 1 of those advantages(more modules) If modules were to become tiericided as well(all shield extenders give 66 HP, but Basic extenders gave a 15% depleted delay penalty, while Complex gave 5%, you don't gain any IMMEDIATE advantages, however across multiple battles you gain benefit.(off topic) Also possible is Tiericiding weaponry, such that skilling up the weapon's operation grants access to harder hitting/longer ranged variants. I.e. A Stabikized Assault Rifle, loses 2% damage, but gains 15% range. The Compressed variant would lose about 5m range, but gain 10% damage. Militia players get the 'basic' AR. While heavier specced players gain benefits from their reload skills, their prooficiency, their variants.(again, off topic but relevant) The first step to this is dropsuits. If we don't like how the disparity is (i.e. Too little gain from investment/too much gain in spending ISK) then we just go back the next month. Like any ither MMO, we can only go forward. In Eve and many other Tactics PvP games, there are ways a Player who isn't maxed can contribute to professional games. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 519	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:03:00 - [29] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Yoma Carrim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value? Hmmm think of it this way Suit with 5x basic shield extenders and a STD rail rifle pack less punch than a suit with 5x complex shield extender with a Kaalakata Rail rifle. A complex Armor reper reps faster than a MLT armor reper They would have the same slot layout but You would have the better modules and weapons. That still fundamentally means I am better than him because I have ISK and SP........ I guess its not a great in terms of difference......but at that point I see no reason to invest SP and ISK into a build if I received no visible benefits over a lesser build. My point is why did MLY HAV sales increase five fold and why are those sales numbers as static as they are? Because MLT HAV are so close in module efficiencies and frame value that there is no real reason to use better since you can achieve the same level of effectiveness with a tank valued at 1/2 the price...... All that means to me, and please by all means try to persuade me, that a new player with less than a quarter of the time and 1/2 the ISK invested is functionally on par with me...... bad or good, what was the point of me putting in effort to develop my tank? Because developing your single fit into greater and greater levels of power results in game imbalance. Look at how PS2 does it. When I have my MBT in PS2 I can spend cert points on improving myself. What this means is however is that as I spend cert points I get new forms of gear to slot into my MBT. I might buy nanite armour (regen armour) or I might buy plate armour (reduce incoming damage), for weapons I might buy a secondary gun that is good for anti-aircraft, or a hvy machine gun that is good against jeeps and other fast land vehicles or a rocket launcher that makes me doubly effective against tanks but has no effect on infantry. I can buy smoke dischargers or I can buy radar or I can buy long range sights or I can buy infra-red sights. The things is that I can't equip all of them into a single god machine, I have to choose 1 sight, 1 secondary gun, 1 armour type, but I am extremely flexible compared to the new guy. If I am going CQC with my tank I choose heavy armour, smoke and a hvy mgun secondary, if I am going long range bombardment I chose regen armour and anti-aircraft secondary etc etc. I have many more options than the new guy but in any one particular fit I am not radically overpowered. We can both kill each other but I just have more play style options. Plus PS2 uses the diminishing returns model where 80 % of the combat power comes from the first few cheap levels of certs, specialists can continue buying higher levels of each "choice" but the costs go up radically. Compare this to Dust's SP system which is a haves and havenots system.
Cotsy The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 18	Posted - 2014.05.01 01:04:00 - [30] - Quote Hey Kage, You realize that drop suit tiericide will further increase the disparity that CCP should be trying to fix. You have some good opinions about many other things, but a tiericide system will only further the problem and does little to address matchmaking. If you, the community, want a solution I suggest a balanced matchmaking system based on SP + skill (a score based on WP averages). I have outlined it a few times but it seems a reasonable solution designed to solve not only NPE but designed to ensure both teams have as close to equal chance at winning every battle, be able to kill any opponent - it would also take the scoring of top 3 players in a squad, to prevent any sort of system abuse, something tiericide will greatly have.



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