DUST Search - In defense of tiercide

Cotsy wrote:

Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE.

There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe.

Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded.

The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix.

2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue.

5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses.

Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces.

WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system.

What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone.


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Glantix Karmic-Snow Frozen Karma 13	Posted - 2014.05.01 04:13:00 - [1] - Quote First I was against teircide, but Kage made a very solid point and swayed me to it..... Then I saw Cotsy's post, and I have to say, he has a better point. The way you are going about teircide is not going to solve anything, and Cotsy was right when he said it will make the gap between newberries and vets even larger. Right now, if a new player wants to get up to the level of a vet, he/she simply needs to save up and get proto modules/weapons and equip them to a proto suit. Sure the vet still has advantages with proficiencies and whatnot, but the newberry can put himself/herself on a pretty close level compared to when he/she started. With teircide, you are putting a heavier influence on the proficiencies and whatnot that currently don't make the largest impact. This means the new player isn't going to feel like he/she is advancing at all because there is no noticeable jump in gameplay. Right now, going from basic to advanced is a considerable jump, but what you are offering makes it a small upgrade, and with suit skills only providing small bonuses it is a lot less exciting. Ask yourself right now, is it more fun to level up a suit skill from 1 to 2, or from 2 to 3? The answer is always going to be 2 to 3, because you gain a large bonus from it, not just a small percentage to something, To summarize, what teircide does is take away all the excitement of progressing through the game, and it increases the gap between new players and experienced vets. PVE and matchmaking will pretty much fix everything, teircide will only lead to more problems and a loss of more players. Sincerely, Glantix / Snow Master of Restarting. Over 100 chars made. New Player Experience Expert. I've been stuck in it for 8 months after all.
Glantix Karmic-Snow Frozen Karma 13	Posted - 2014.05.01 04:50:00 - [2] - Quote Autoaim Bot514 wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Cotsy wrote: 4. I pointed out major issues with tiericide, i think the idea is garbage. I don't think any player should have a massive advantage over another, the more you balance the game upon skill the better. Making suit tier restrictions will limit the game greatly. SKILL SHOULD BE THE ADVANTAGE, not whether or not you have more SP and SP related advantages. Let me give you two scenarios and you tell me which scenario has a larger power differential between two players. Scenario 1: New player in a standard logi suit with a full set of standard mods, weapon, and equipment against a fully core skilled player wearing a proto logi suit with a full suite of complex modules, full passives on those modules, a proto weapon, and a mix of adv and proto equipment. vs Scenario 2: New player in a proto suit with a full suite of standard modules, weapon, and equipment and against that same prototype player. Considering logi suits already have a suit bonus, the bonus differential remains the same. 1 level of 'racial' logi bonus vs the full 5 levels of 'racial' logi bonus. In which case is the new player at a larger disadvantage compared to the veteran player in a 1v1? This is what I've been saying. It doesnt close the gap totally, but it does make it alot better for new players. It'll at the very least put them in a position where if they have better gun game, they will come out on top, not where they get stomped because they only have 50% HP than those proto players. WHY DONT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS??!?!? I'm beginning to think people are against tiericide because they want to continue to be able to farm new players for their KDRs. As I said in a post above, yes it will reduce the initial gap between a new guy and a proto guy, but not by much. On top of that, teircide will increase the time it takes for the new guy to become on par with the vet. All of this aside, teircide will take all of the joy about skilling up your suits in this game, and it will generally take away this unique style of gameplay and mechanics that CCP has worked so hard to develop. Sincerely, Glantix / Snow Master of Restarting. Over 100 chars made. New Player Experience Expert. I've been stuck in it for 8 months after all.
Glantix Karmic-Snow Frozen Karma 13	Posted - 2014.05.01 05:09:00 - [3] - Quote Cotsy wrote: Tiericide - i showed you the std Amarr sentinel suit maxed out with bonuses, thats 1100+ eHP with 15% projectile def and 10% hybrid defence added. I would like you to show me std builds without bonuses (like new players and rookies experience) that can effectively take out this sentinel without using an RE. There is no way a scout is going to get close without being seen, plus there is no way to equip a cloak, so it's basically a walking 170 eHP frame. A sentinel + HMG takes a lot of SP to spec into to get to std fit, both are no reasonable nor affordable early. Commandos are a little easier to get into due to weapon being lower SP, but there's no bonus damage so taking down 1100+ eHP + resistance isn't easy. Now assault and Logi are left. Both are the more likely choice of the noob, both lack the mobility or the damage or the defense to be able to stand toe to toe. Now this is how you spawn, arguing that a proto fitting is better than a std suit isn't an argument to disprove anything. Tiericide reinforces the disparity of vets to noobs. Shows vets where to find noobs, and provides massive advantages to vets based on SP bonuses. Just because you think tiericide prevents Proto vs std battles that it has to be the best answer is very flawed logic. The argument is invalid, weak, and narrow minded. The goal is to keep vets away from noobs, tiericide doesn't accomplish that either. So you basically took one side of the argument because you think it offers the removal of Proto vs std suits, when there are better solutions that you've ignored in favor of a quick, terrible fix. 2. TIERICIDE IS TIER-GEAR MATCHMAKING. IT LIMITS THE SUIT ONE CAN USE IN A BATTLE TO CREATE A "CEILING". The idea is that if everyone has a ceiling no one has an advantage, this is untrue. 5. Vehicles do not follow the tier system, they are the exact same as the suit system. They have more slots, shields, armor etc at higher levels. As well their skill provide substantial bonuses. Tiericide limits variety, I've clearly shown that. It is impossible for a new player to be a cloaked scout. Now disprove it. A BASIC M-1 frame is 115 CPU and 30 PG, a cloak is 160 CPU and 35 PG. Now without CPU and PG upgrades on the low slots its impossible to equip. Now with both CPU and PG std mods you are in the negative on CPU and have 3 PG. So try me. Show me how this basic frame without any SP can compete with a std match when that Amarr Sent is 1100+ eHP and wrecks faces. WHY WOULD YOU DISREGARD ISK? Fix the broken PC rewarding huge ISK, yes, but ISK is the system. What are you talking about?! Tiericide is limiting suits, you clearly do not understand. What incentives do you have, well there is no incentives for new players because they cannot fully use the suit (can't afford upgrades, bonuses, etc). There is no role playing, you can't be HMG heavy because you can't afford it early on, you can't be a cloaked scout so they do diverse roles are gone. Though I agree on every one of your points, and I will continue to support your argument, your example are poor at best. What you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, is that with teircide a new scout won't be able to cloak and a new player won't be able to use a sentinel, right? This is very true, but you seem to have overlooked one thing, and that is that right now a new player can't do those things either. Now I am not supporting teircide, and I am not saying you are wrong. I am simply saying your example aren't clear at explaining why teircide won't work. I would explain myself but seeing as how I have done so twice on this thread already, I am not going to do it again. Sincerely, Glantix / Snow Master of Restarting. Over 100 chars made. New Player Experience Expert. I've been stuck in it for 8 months after all.
Glantix Karmic-Snow Frozen Karma 13	Posted - 2014.05.01 05:17:00 - [4] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: -Stuff- I suggest you try eve Cotsy. The ship hulls in eve are tiercided and im always excited to unlock a new turret or module. I'm perfectly happy that there isn't three separate destroyers for me to fly and two are clearly inferior to the third. There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it...... THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS! This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat. What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas. Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE! Sincerely, Glantix / Snow Master of Restarting. Over 100 chars made. New Player Experience Expert. I've been stuck in it for 8 months after all.
Glantix Karmic-Snow Frozen Karma 13	Posted - 2014.05.01 06:13:00 - [5] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Cotsy wrote: To Glantix, I'll try and add to my thoughts, Why is tiericide being talked about?; CCP is supposedly looking at how to improve the game, and it has been suggested that addressing matchmaking will be looked at. Judging by CCP's response in EVE to imbalance, one can see they are more likely to use a tiericide model again. There have been a few posts by a CM, in which the topic was introduced and blindly supported. To which, a few others blindly supported the system, without knowing what it was. So a few more people made topics, explaining that it is a system in which a ceiling on gear (suits, weapons, mods) is made to attempt to fix the disparity between vet and novice players. A few, including myself, have pointed out that tiericide is not the best solution, and tiericide would only continue to reinforce to disparity we are currently dealing with. Currently: I am not saying that our current system is working, no one is. People are simply showing the massive flaws in logic, the lack of supporting evidence and the major issues associated with a tier gear based system. It will keep the elite at the top, it will allow them to highlight and easily find these novice targets, and tiericide does little to expand the game. In fact at lower levels the game is very restrictive, scouts and heavies are not seen and are not realistic options. Even inside your class, it is hard to be diverse when seeking to expand your role. Normally, (i only have one) players have 1 suit (normally assault) early so youre going to have the same 4 suits with the same basic armor plates on all builds. It's boring and harmful. What should be done?: There is no balanced in a tier based system, there is only balance along skill. Okay, tiericide is not the answer but neither is our current matchmaking system which can match my 500k SP character against a NS q-synced squad (it has before). So what is to be done, i suggest a two sided system. One based on SP and one based on a skill score (SP+WP), with the added point that in a squad only the three tops skill scores are used to determine opponents (prevents abuse of system). My suggestion: SP hard phase: 0-4m SP will be the battle academy. 5-9m SP will be the beginner phase. Intro to Skill Based phase: 10-14m SP will be the advanced phase. 15-19 SP will be the advanced-2 phase. 20-26m+ SP will be the veteran phase. I have details, of course i do, about each class and what you can see and expect in each class. If you want my suggestion, for a system i believe is a better option, I can expand on it for you. And of course, I would love input, suggestions, additions to it. SP-based matchmaking is a terrible solution. It artificially punishes breadth- one person may have 25m SP and a maxed-out protosuit, while another person with 25m SP may have a few different ADV suits and maybe a basic HAV. You make a valid point, though I feel Cotsy's idea has more merit and will work better than teircide. Now I can honestly say I have never played EVE, or any the other more popular FPS. What I can also say is people seem to be over dramatising the basic to proto difference. Trust me, we are branching in to my area of expertise more or less. For the past eight months of me playing, I have biomassed over 100 different characters that I treated as my main, many of which had over 1 mil sp each. I have once, and only once, ever skilled into an advanced suit. As someone who has been running new player level basic gear for eight months, I know what it is like to be outmatched. Now my play group includes someone who is in a similar situation to me, except he is sitting around 2.5 mil sp and has an adv suit. There are two other people in my typical group, a very experience player who commonly uses his alt which almost has proto gear, and a new player with 2.5 mil sp aswell. Us four typically do very well, and being outmatched in gear doesn't usually equal losing the game. In fact, it usually takes a full squad of proto or good adv gear with excellent teamwork to actually give us a run for our money. To summarize, the tier system we have now is actually working pretty well, and tiercide is in no way necessary. In fact, PVE is really the one thing we need and we will be pretty solid when it comes to balance. I am enjoying this argument, but I am going to have to get off for the night. I can continue this argument tomorrow morning, but for now I am going silent. As always, Glantix / Snow Master of Restarting. Over 100 chars made. New Player Experience Expert. I've been stuck in it for 8 months after all.
Glantix Karmic-Snow Frozen Karma 14	Posted - 2014.05.01 15:26:00 - [6] - Quote So after a good night's sleep I can finally explain my points better. I have always been horrible at explaining things, so if anyone still needs clarification on something just ask. That being said, let me begin to elaborate and make my counter-points. Autoaim Bot514 wrote: Glantix Karmic-Snow wrote: This is what I've been saying. It doesnt close the gap totally, but it does make it alot better for new players. It'll at the very least put them in a position where if they have better gun game, they will come out on top, not where they get stomped because they only have 50% HP than those proto players. WHY DONT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS??!?!? I'm beginning to think people are against tiericide because they want to continue to be able to farm new players for their KDRs. As I said in a post above, yes it will reduce the initial gap between a new guy and a proto guy, but not by much. On top of that, teircide will increase the time it takes for the new guy to become on par with the vet. All of this aside, teircide will take all of the joy about skilling up your suits in this game, and it will generally take away this unique style of gameplay and mechanics that CCP has worked so hard to develop. Sincerely, Glantix / Snow 1. In what way will it increase the time for a new player to be on par with a vet? 2. There is no joy in skilling up a suit if its just an endless grind. New players would stick around longer if they could just unlock a suit at level one and improve that suit with each level instead of just getting stomped and giving up. 3. How will it remove style/gameplay? Do you mean "protostomping?" Because that is not gameplay. [/quote] 1. Right now, once a player gets a proto suit, they can put themselves close to on par with vets with just proto stuff alone. But what you are doing is giving everyone the same tier of suit, meaning that there is a larger influence by what are now considered as optional skills. Things like proficiency, rapid reload, ammo capacity, systems hacking, and other things along those lines become far more important. These skills take up a lot of sp, which is why people save these skills until after they have gotten their gear to the level they want it at. With these skills being more important, it will take longer for the new person to be on par with these vets. There is actually another problem that arises from how tiercide will work. When a new player joins the game now, and they get stomped by proto suits, and they realize that people have better gear than them. At this point they either quit the game or they become motivated to get said gear they were stomped by. With tiercide, when a new player joins the game, they get stomped by people who have the exact same suits as them, at this point they feel like that they just suck and will never get better. Giving more module slots to a new player does not mean that they will do better, it just means they are losing more isk per death. 2. Either way, getting up to a good level is always going to be a grind. Tiercide just hides a players progression. When a player jumps up from a basic suit to an advanced suit, not only do they gain the bonus from leveling up said suit, but they also gain 1-2 more modules to play around with, so the jump is noticeable. With tiercide, the jump isn't noticable, it is just a small innate bonus. 3. Right now, Dust is in a very unique position, what you are suggesting is not only making it more like EVE Online, but it will make it more like a generic FPS. Now I have only played CoD a tiny bit, but I know that the only way to differentiate yourself from other players is to change your loadouts and level up the few skills you have. What you are suggesting is that the only way we should differentiate ourselves from each other is by changing our loadouts and leveling up the few skills we have. Sadly, school is about to start so I can not finish my argument right now, and I have a few other people I want to address, but I have to go, talk to you all later. Sincerely, Glantix / Snow Master of Restarting. Over 100 chars made. New Player Experience Expert. I've been stuck in it for 8 months after all.
Glantix Karmic-Snow Frozen Karma 18	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:27:00 - [7] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Glantix Karmic-Snow wrote: You make a valid point, though I feel Cotsy's idea has more merit and will work better than teircide. Now I can honestly say I have never played EVE, or any the other more popular FPS. What I can also say is people seem to be over dramatising the basic to proto difference. Trust me, we are branching in to my area of expertise more or less. For the past eight months of me playing, I have biomassed over 100 different characters that I treated as my main, many of which had over 1 mil sp each. I have once, and only once, ever skilled into an advanced suit. As someone who has been running new player level basic gear for eight months, I know what it is like to be outmatched. Now my play group includes someone who is in a similar situation to me, except he is sitting around 2.5 mil sp and has an adv suit. There are two other people in my typical group, a very experience player who commonly uses his alt which almost has proto gear, and a new player with 2.5 mil sp aswell. Us four typically do very well, and being outmatched in gear doesn't usually equal losing the game. In fact, it usually takes a full squad of proto or good adv gear with excellent teamwork to actually give us a run for our money. To summarize, the tier system we have now is actually working pretty well, and tiercide is in no way necessary. In fact, PVE is really the one thing we need and we will be pretty solid when it comes to balance. As always, Glantix / Snow So what you're saying is that the difference between standard and prototype isn't that much, that these don't make much of a difference? 175 CPU 39 PG 3 Highs 3 Lows Even if it doesn't make much much of difference for some, for most players it does. In opposition of having an SP based matchmaking system, I have these things to say: you even said it yourself that you and other experienced players who use low SP characters can do well against groups of people who have enough SP to use proto, so how can you honestly say that just having more SP makes one a more skilled player and should be used to match players? Lastly, how would adding PVE balance PVP? I am not saying that the difference between proto and standard is small, in fact quite the contrary. I'm saying that the jump towards proto is a large one, so new players can feel like they are closing the gap. I am not saying that we need an sp based matchmaking system, I am saying that an sp based matchmaking system would work better than tiercide. Honestly, I am against both you guys and Cotsy, I thin kthat the system works fine the way it is, to an extent. I feel that adding PVE would give a way for the new players to avoid the vets and slowly make their way towards vet level. Adding PVE would probably have some negative impacts on PVP initially, due to a large influx of players moving towards PVE at the beginning to try it out. So to sum it up, I don't support anyone but myself, and PVE is the solution. Sincerely, Glantix / Snow Master of Restarting. Over 100 chars made. New Player Experience Expert. I've been stuck in it for 8 months after all.
Glantix Karmic-Snow Frozen Karma 18	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:33:00 - [8] - Quote Autoaim Bot514 wrote: Glantix Karmic-Snow wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: -Stuff- I suggest you try eve Cotsy. The ship hulls in eve are tiercided and im always excited to unlock a new turret or module. I'm perfectly happy that there isn't three separate destroyers for me to fly and two are clearly inferior to the third. There is one thing a lot of people can't seem to comprehend, and it has been mention so many times and is so blatantly obvious that I don't know how you could miss it...... THIS ISN'T EVE GENIUS! This is Dust514, if you think you can balance this game the exact same way you can balance EVE then you really should take a second look. EVE and Dust a two very different styles of games and need to be approached from different angles. And you never know, maybe it could work. But then how are CCP actually expanding there game making techniques, they would just be making two very similar games with the only difference being the style of combat. What we need is a totally unique system compared to any other game, and we actually have that right now. So stop trying to compare this game to something it is not, and try coming up with new ideas. Like you said yourself, if you want to see the teircide system you love so much, go play EVE! Sincerely, Glantix / Snow Whats that word above the logo for this game on this page? Let me reword this...... THIS ISN'T EVE ONLINE, GENIUS!!!!!!!!! Just because this game is part of the EVE universe doesn't mean it needs to follow the same mechanics EVE Online does. Dust514 is its own game, so why don't we let it be its own game. Did not mean to insult if I did, Sincerely, Glantix / Snow Master of Restarting. Over 100 chars made. New Player Experience Expert. I've been stuck in it for 8 months after all.
Glantix Karmic-Snow Frozen Karma 18	Posted - 2014.05.01 23:02:00 - [9] - Quote Ok, I can tell my argument is failing. You guys have successfully countered almost all of my points. But there is one point I stand by, and it is that reason alone that I believe we should ditch the concept of tiercide. That feeling of progression is what keeps players in this game. That feeling when you unlock a new weapon and you feel like you can take on the world. That feeling of when you level a suit up from level 2 to level 3, and all of a sudden your options and power increase dramatically. That feeling know you can now equip more modules, and that you are now closer to the vets who's shadows have been cast upon you for so long. That feeling is what keeps this game interesting and alive. You cannot tell me that getting a 5% bonus to something decent is more exciting than getting that 5% bonus as well as 1 or 2 more modules, maybe even an equipment. Everyone knows it is pretty boring when you unlock an advanced module, because it is only providing a small benefit and your suit isn't really changing. But it is that feeling of advancement, that sensation of going from standard to advanced, and advanced to prototype, that really makes the game not only interesting, but unique. I know most of my previous arguments didn't make much sense, in fact looking back they don't make much sense to me either. But if you are going to deny that tiercide is going to take a lot of the fun out of this game, then you should go watch paint dry or something, because to people like you anything like that should be entertaining too. Thank you for your time, and thanks for an interesting argument, but this is my closing point. Sincerely, Glanitx / Snow Master of Restarting. Over 100 chars made. New Player Experience Expert. I've been stuck in it for 8 months after all.